Messages

1

Comments, Suggestions & Questions / Re: OS/2 Licensing

« on: December 30, 2024, 06:49:21 pm »

OS/2 (ms & ibm versions) are, for me, Whack-A-MOS's (Whack-A-Mole OS's) ...

They are copyright and enjoined on paper & shrinkwrap, and by copyright law, but because their copyright owners have mostly abandoned them, it's now moot. Add to that the Internet distribution models of today (archive.org, many others), they can no longer be "contained" (restricted). Finally, virtualization capabilities of modern hardware and software allow anything, from any time, to be explored & tested. Availability is not containable for pretty much any piece of software from any time period, unlike the old days.

This means these OS's will pop their heads up in many configurations and uses, and it would be up to MS, IBM, and others to decide if that head, as popped up, warrants "whacking" (egregious use warrants whacking by cease&desist, lawsuits, etc.; casual use does not, at this time).

ArcaOS is an exception, as it is a modern OS, licensed and enforced in such a way that you know who is redistributing it (illegally), and the owners (AN) can go after it if any such illegal use head pops up. It is also small enough that it has escaped modern developer attention (hacking it's distribution model in any form).

My own use case? "I see dead OS's ..."
... and then I bring them back to life (with virtualization software), and put them to use again! There are infinite possibilities here. This ranges from DOS and earlier, to OS/2 and later, Win and later, and many others ... I even have a mainframe running in virtualization (this is a little trickier to get it to do something useful for me, but I'm working on it).

So, if you can get at an OS (or any piece of software), make use of it ... just don't let your head rise up too far to where it gets noticed, and position yourself for whacking ...

2

General Discussion / Re: OS/2 - ArcaOS Santa's List for 2025

« on: December 06, 2024, 03:21:07 pm »

Winflector, while a paid application, has something of immense value to us all ... they offer a free 1-user server license, and the clients are free. No time limits ...

Thus, on my AToF solution (everything running on one desktop/laptop), you are delivering 64-bit apps to your OS/2 vm, all for free. Or, you can put the server somewhere else on your home network, and deliver 64-bit apps to your dedicated OS/2 machine. That's a lot of value for the OS/2 community, which I suspect is much bigger than a few users ...

Commercially, we all guesstimate that this user pool is quite large, from hints dropped, and focus of ArcaNoae ... I'm beating the drum as loudly as I can, at the past two Warpstocks and elsewhere, and at last Warpstock, AN did mention that they should look further into Winflector. If ArcaNoae talks to Winflector, there could be lots of symmetry in that relationship ... plus, AN has the true numbers for OS/2, commercial and non-commercial.

This would really help the community out, while we try to get more open-source apps converted to native.

Imagine a new OS/2 developer sitting at a laptop (running in AToF fashion) & pounding out code ... developing on an ArcaOS desktop that runs any 64-bit (or other) app he or she would ever need, via Winflector.

3

General Discussion / Re: OS/2 - ArcaOS Santa's List for 2025

« on: December 05, 2024, 07:09:32 pm »

Sure, it's closed source ... Winflector folks own it, but note that they are producing clients for other platforms: win, linux, RPi, mac, android, html5 ...

We just need folks (ArcaOS, Paul S. ... you?) to help them get the client ported to OS/2 & ArcaOS ... I just don't know what that help looks like, but ArcaNoae, Paul, and hopefully others can work with them and possibly make it happen?

The benefits would be huge ... any 64-bit app, "running" under OS/2 in a native PM desktop window ...

4

General Discussion / Re: OS/2 - ArcaOS Santa's List for 2025

« on: December 05, 2024, 06:57:02 pm »

Discussed a few times, and brought it up again (remotely at 2024 warpstock), but please add an entry for Winflector into the software section:

winflector.com

Goal would be to get the Winflector folks to produce a native 32-bit OS/2 client, by porting their linux 32-bit client over to OS/2. I'm trying to facilitate ArcaNoae, Winflector (and possibly Paul S.) to get together and get this client porting effort done. If it happens, then we have pretty much any 64-bit app available to us under OS/2, ArcaOS, in a native OS/2 window frame.

Currently, Winflector works with OS/2 via their HTML5 client ... I show that this works in my AToF post:

https://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3502.0.html

... and here is the Winflector "request" for native winflector 32-bit client for OS/2:

https://www.winflector.com/store/forum/topic-view/id/610

Currently, Winflector's HTML5 client relies on older browsers for OS/2, which tend to not be developed much beyond their last version ever released. This HTML5 support works, and we can get 64-bit apps into OS/2, but ... a native OS/2 client would be so much better.

Thanks!

5

Hardware / Re: Observations on intel vs AMD

« on: November 10, 2024, 03:17:48 pm »

AME is a key component of my virtualization processes over in the virt sub-forum ... it makes for a perfect, stripped down HostOS, that then runs any other os in a VM, such as ArcaOS. Gets me x64 apps into ArcaOS.

  os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.0.html

I've been running AME for nearly two years now, and there hasn't been any problems, security issues, or such that I can find. On the other hand, there also have not been any data leaks going the other way back to MS, nor have I had to put up with their crud (changes, advertising, etc.) coming my way.

I can report that AME is good stuff ... saves me *hours* of trying to strip out by hand all of MS' garbage in their os's ...

6

Events / Re: Warpstock 2024 - For folks trying to participate remotely, how ...

« on: September 19, 2024, 01:09:48 am »

OK ... to recap, on the 1st day of Warpstock:

- video/audio streaming ... via youtube link Martin will put up
- q's or other input to warpstock sessions ... use libera IRC link, & Martin will relay into session

I did get into libera without creating an online account, and that's good. I already have a Warpstock (website) account, and wasn't looking to create more to get feeds into Warpstock 2024.

I don't know what others think, but I could envision paying something (up to full registration fee?) to get a more unified single tool approach to video/audio/remote-user-input. It could perhaps be a way for Warpstock to bring in the remote folks (and get them up to parity with being there?), and a way for others and I to officially support the Warpstock conferences, if we can't actually get there in person in a given year ...

Thanks, Martin!

7

Events / Re: Warpstock 2024 - For folks trying to participate remotely, how ...

« on: September 18, 2024, 07:02:26 pm »

IRC ... seems to require "yet another logon account and login process".

Is it possible email questions/comments to someone at the event, or post q's and comments to this forum in a special thread and have them checked by someone at the event?

8

Events / Warpstock 2024 - For folks trying to participate remotely, how ...

« on: September 18, 2024, 05:51:16 pm »

... capable is the remote viewing and participation aspect (video/audio), for those unable to attend in-person this year?

Warpstock website doesn't seem to discuss this much, other than a blurb that suggests if not there in-person, you are SOL (which is one way to sell things).

Video streaming (Martin's video streaming efforts) would seem to allow us to view & hear the sessions. Is there any chance for audio participation, either by hotel setup of audio conferencing, somebody's mostly free audio-conferencing over the internet, someone at the event using their cellphone to tie us in, someone catching the "emailed questions from remote folks" and relaying them in, etc.?

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Events / Re: Warpstock 2024: Coming? Not Coming? Why?

« on: September 12, 2024, 07:18:41 pm »

Q's extracted from Lewis R. post above:

1. would you come to Warpstock this year?
  - Nothing about the Warpstock site encouraged me to attend in-person ... site must be improved to do a better selling job for OS/2 (why come back to it, why use it, etc.) and ultimately the Warpstock event itself. Take a look at HaikuOS.org and replicate everything. Build interest in Warpstock, starting here ...
  - there absolutely must be a Team OS/2; they have to build interest in everything, everywhere in their geography (OS/2 clubs, etc), all year long, so folks are lined up at the Warpstock locations to see the events. If you build it up, they will come ...
  - both in-person and virtual attendance must be on par, and the warpstock website must make this super-simple (to pay fees, participate, etc.)

2. would sessions on browser functionality make the difference?
  - there must be a "chocolatey" cli install tool for OS/2 (not ANPM, not yum, which are linux tools and which themselves get in the way); whomever creates a browser solution gets the (user) install done with a simple "choco install ThisNiftyBrowser"  ... perhaps "Warp install ThisNiftyBrowser"
  - Warpstock site must have the package list, similar to chocolatey.org
  - there must be well-defined solutions for modern browser access inside OS/2 (AToF & winflector solution provides any modern browser within OS/2)

3. Would sessions on how to use the platform for daily computing make the difference?
  - possibly ... but definitely have Team OS/2 do this, with every team member coming up with tutorials; each team member works with one or more SME's, builds the tutorial. depending on what they came up with, I might attend in-person
  - have a warpstock website suggestion box to catch idea/tutorial requests
  - for the most popular sessions, do live sessions at each location
  - How to solve every technical difficulty with OS/2; bring a laptop & SSD, we'll have you set up with AToF before the session is over (the Warpstock USB Key does the heavy lifting).

4. what would make the trip worthwhile vs watching a live stream
  - building up so much interest in OS/2 (thanks to Team OS/2 activities all year-long), that I absolutely must attend the in-person event nearest me, vs virtual, just to catch the buzz and receive the event largesse (usb key, coffee cup, etc.). Some event items will ONLY be at the in-person locations?
  - USB key (given away at the event, part of event fee) boots directly into OS/2 and demonstrates things; warpstock site mirrors this
  - coordinate the Warpstock event across geographies, such that there are two simultaneous events in east/west usa, two in north/south australia (north covers asia-pacific?), and equivalent for europe; it doesn't matter which location you are at, you are there at Warpstock.
  - roadmaps ... not just ArcaOS' product roadmaps, but roadmaps for OS/2. a roadmap for each of:
    - Team OS/2 (what they did the past year, what they will do next year, are you Warped enough for recruitment, etc.)
    - OS/2 dev (code camps, system setups, etc)
    - getting more apps to OS/2 (LibreOffice, ...)
    - getting apps to do the OS/2 thing (wps, objects)
    - getting past 64-bits for now (AToF and Winflector does this)
    - getting to 64-bits (WorkplaceOS-like on sel4/Nova microkernel)
    - and many more ...

Hope this helps ...

10

Events / Re: Warpstock 2024: Coming? Not Coming? Why?

« on: September 11, 2024, 01:50:45 pm »

I drive vs fly, and Pittsburgh is a tad too far from the Colorado area, so I'll be watching the stream this year ...

I hope Warpstock can bring parity to both sides (conference & virtual attendance), including local clubs video conferencing to the national meetup ... which requires more local clubs. This will be my first virtual attendance.

Basically, I don't understand Warpstock (the .org & website), as that site seems woefully out of date. I can get at historical info, but ... Huge gaps, no (OS/2) news, etc. NO ROADMAPS (here on the site) = no future?

I couldn't tell anyone what any of the roadmaps for OS/2 are ... I think they are:

1. modernize the OS/2 platform ... this is ArcaOS, mostly for commercial purposes(?), but also for consumers. Basically, get ArcaOS onto more modern computing equipment, with more device driver support. OS/2 remains 32-bit.
  - I don't run OS/2 directly on real hardware ... it's too problematic, with 64-bit issues, hardware issues, etc.
  - I do virtualize, and feel that there are "no problems" and "64-bit access to everything", on one machine (even in OS/2)
  - got no traction this past year on a native 32-bit Winflector client for OS/2 (even though a native 32-bit linux client exists (meaning it's 90% done?). A native OS/2 winflector client would've brought very seamless 64-bit apps to OS/2 (the OS/2 browser html5 approach still works, as I demo'd in Warpstock '23, but not as seamlessly). ArcaOS is not driving this, and needs to be?

2. bring more (young) people to OS/2 ... can't find a roadmap for this
  - how does one develop for OS/2 ... what is the perfect dev environment; I couldn't really find anything to give to a kid wanting to develop. nothing ties together.
  - how does one do all of the modern things alongside a not-so-modern OS; as it stands today, I couldn't attract my kids to OS/2 as a single OS on real hardware.
  - what is the platform of the future, that the kids will be driving (hint: I think it's virtualization)

3. get OS/2 on top of 64-bits ... can't find a roadmap for this
  - I did post a thread recently with loose roadmap ... not enough feedback, other than continue on my own until I hit a roadblock. One person was kind enough to say it'll never happen, but I can't put this in the sales pitch slide deck.
  - I run OS/2 on a single modern platform, 64-bits, zero hardware/software problems ... but it requires virtualization; very few realize they can virtualize with today's hardware, and run any os. My scheme (AToF) is not currently packaged to be downloadable, and needs to be.

OS/2 is what it is (at the moment) ... I am just trying to understand where OS/2 is going, much like where Haiku is going ... both were excellent OS's in their original time, and both are still relevant in modern times, but with seemingly different trajectories & futures. Haiku seems to be going somewhere ...

Could we just compliment the Haiku folks, by lifting the Haiku website look & feel for Warpstock?

Hope this helps ...

11

Virtualization / Re: 64-bit job control in OS/2, via AToF

« on: September 06, 2024, 05:57:11 pm »

My process has always been something like:

1. first, make it work
2. then, make it work right
3. finally, make it work better

So, to get 64-bit stuff "into" OS/2, I had to figure out the AToF methods (virtualization of everything on one machine, which presents 64-bit apps inside of OS/2), and this job control method running under AToF (which presents 64-bit job output into OS/2). This all works, so it fits #1 and was done fast ... either method gets just about any 64-bit app or app output into OS/2!

Doing API work seems to fall under #2 (for me), as there is a ton of programming to do ... it's better than job control, but obviously much harder to get done. At various times, some programmers have done bits & pieces of this, per threads in this forum, but this hasn't seemed to get anywhere?

Not sure, because I don't have OS/2 Warp for Powerpc (old microkernel version of OS/2) up and running to explore things (and this might not come to pass), but this seems to be #3 ... replacing the old microkernel with a modern seL4 microkernel, and building the OS/2 pieces on top of that.

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General Discussion / Re: Do we still need a 64-bit version of OS/2? And a possible roadmap provided ...

« on: September 04, 2024, 05:28:08 pm »

Relative to Neil's post (but without the programming), it would be possible to do simple job control, and have OS/2 initiating 64-bit actions on other 64-bit machines, and getting results back into the OS/2 session. For more detail, look at:

  os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3716.0.html

If all the effort is kept on an AToF machine, there would be less latency & complexity, as all task activity happens on multiple VM's local to your single AToF machine.

We do have python on OS/2, so you could make python API calls from OS/2 to a backend 64-bit program providing an API (somewhere out there, VM on your AToF machine, another physical machine on your network, the internet). Being python, you could program away to your heart's content. If this is what you meant, it's a great idea, Neil.

13

Virtualization / 64-bit job control in OS/2, via AToF

« on: September 04, 2024, 05:20:38 pm »

In an AToF machine, the HostOS (Windows 10 for example) provides 64-bit functionality, the NTFS filesystem, and other services. ArcaOS (or OS/2), running in a virtualbox VM with guest tools installed, can access that HostOS 64-bit capability via the shared filesystem and "jobs".

For example:

1. You can place all of your OS/2 data files on "z:", which actually resides on the HostOS (NTFS); it can be managed and backed up by the HostOS, with 64-bit tools, automatically.

2. create & "drop" a command string into a jobs folder on the same shared volume, to execute a 64-bit tool on the HostOS like WizTree64.exe, which scans file sizes on z: and produces a graphical map to find excessively large files.

3. HostOS, perhaps with regina rexx (or a service, or powershell), watches job folder, parses and executes the job's command string, screen captures the graphical result, and returns job results to a sub-folder.

4. OS/2, perhaps with REXX, scans subfolder for job results, displays the .png, and you see the output of WizTree64, and know what files are currently taking up the most space in your data location's filesystem.

5. This is not interactive, but you could leave the graphical WizTree program running, and if the screen capture results sent to OS/2 justify it, you can switch to the HostOS desktop, and drill down further ... or, the WizTree program reaches a time limit, and exits, while you remain in OS/2.

OS/2 is executing 64-bit commands or programs on the HostOS, against *your* OS/2 data files, and results flow back to and are visible in your OS/2 desktop ... all via relatively simple job control scripting.

This isn't going out over the network, so no TCP/IP configuration or programming, it's just VM to HostOS integration via VirtualBox guest tools, and simple task scripting, along with numerous 64-bit apps running on the HostOS. As fast as you drop jobs into the job folder under OS/2, the HostOS is processing them, and returning results to OS/2.

There's really no limit to what can be done ... consider:
  - utilizing Wolfram Engine (free math tool running on the HostOS), and you could be executing complex math from OS/2, or sending AI queries from OS/2 out to Wolfram AI services via the Wolfram Engine, and getting AI results back into OS/2.
  - running 16-bit Wordstar or Wordperfect (dos, dos/win) under OS/2, creating documents, and then post-processing them into PDF's or other document conversions (on the HostOS) you might need.

Extend this with nearly any 64-bit application you can conceive of, as long as you can initiate it via external commands, or scripting and/or job language. Rexx or other scripting languages can make the job control effortless.

To give it a try ... AToF your system and see all it can do for you and your OS/2 efforts. More AToF details at:

    os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.0.html

14

General Discussion / Re: Re: Do we still need a 64-bit version of OS/2? And a possible roadmap provided ...

« on: September 01, 2024, 05:58:07 pm »

If one is considering multiboot solutions, then this could be a case where an AToF machine really shines for WordStar and other old non-OS/2 apps ...

The (old) special purpose DOS or WIN apps (WordStar, others) get their own VM running a more native OS that matches the app version, or a modern emulator that extends more features to the old DOS/WIN app. Plus, it's all windowed, alongside OS/2 running in its own VM(s), under one HostOS.

A VM running a more recent DOS 6.22 or DR-DOS 7 should be perfect, or even a Win VM running DosBox-X, to get access to more recent file/networking/printing features.

OS/2 offers a better dos than dos, and a better win than windows, but that was tied to specific OS timeframes of some decades ago. A VM solution should be able to do much better these days. AToF should help ...

15

General Discussion / Do we still need a 64-bit version of OS/2? And a possible roadmap provided ...

« on: August 30, 2024, 07:48:55 pm »

With the AToF solution, I think I no longer need (or perhaps even care about) a 64-bit version of OS/2 ...

If you'll recall, AToF provides for a 64-bit Host OS (linux or windows), a virtualization program (Virtualbox), and OS/2 or ArcaOS is running in a VM. 64-bit apps are provided to OS/2 in a browser (Firefox) via Winflector; or, the entire AToF platform allows windowed access on the same PC to other os's (HostOS or other OS VM's) running 64-bit apps. OS/2 stays at 32-bits, but none of the current crop of hardware/software problems are there under AToF. More AToF details at:

  os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.0.html

It remains fun to think about a 64-bit OS/2, though ...

Of course, getting to a 64-bit OS/2 "the old way" (writing it from the ground up) is near impossible, because of IBM "licensing issues" & such, where the source code for OS/2 itself most likely never gets opened up. Are there any alternatives, short of clean-slate rewrites of each piece of "existing" OS/2? With no money, this clean-slate approach also remains unavailable.

But, is a new way opening up for us? A thought exercise is that a "microkernel" and "workplace OS" (a new form of OS/2, kinda/sorta already done, but later abandoned by IBM) approach would get us there, and some of the pieces are getting tantalizingly closer ...

The microkernel part is complete, and it appears we can bring up a 64-bit microkernel (seL4) on pc hardware (and other platforms). The IBM Workplace OS microkernel (mach) is replaced by an *existing* seL4 microkernel (NOVA, based on seL4). OS/2 was up and running on the Mach microkernel. We can now swap out Mach for NOVA (seL4). To keep up with the interesting work in this area, look at Genode Lab's efforts on:

  - the Genode OS Framework
  - the NOVA microkernel (seL4)
  - Sculpt OS (which we would want to replace with Workplace OS pieces)

The OS/2 part would be the other elements of IBM's Workplace OS, which hopefully doesn't have the same license restrictions, as IBM & partners were going a clean-slate route for development (hopefully, no Microsoft code remains in there). Instead of being layered on Mach, they are layered on NOVA.

I can't pursue this any further (even on paper) until I can get the original Workplace OS up and running in some form of virtualization or emulation ... most likely, it will be with QEMU. I believe I've found all the Workplace OS bits and pieces, but don't think I'll be ready to show something at this year's Warpstock. It looks like I can get there, though. Virtualization or emulation would enable more poking around on how Workplace OS did it's thing, which in turn would enable something more like a roadmap:

1. done (Genode solution): get a microkernel up and running on PC hardware
2. wip: get Workplace OS up and running under emulation ... enable more investigation of OS/2 in this environment
    - I could find that I still don't have all the pieces, but, some progress
    - don't know how to ask IBM for missing pieces; ignoring licensing, for the moment, unless it actually starts working.
3. determine how to rewrite the OS/2 pieces on top of an existing microkernel
  - will IBM open up the Workplace OS parts? That would jumpstart things ...
  - if they won't, can these piece be clean-slated?

Again, I'm fairly happy running OS/2 as a 32-bit OS in an AToF solution, because AToF takes care of all my 64-bit needs, on one PC. I also no longer need 16-bit DOS or 16/32-bit Windows, each under 32-bit OS/2, because they are available under AToF, and run with no problems in other VM's.

AToF does enable virtualization and emulation, so it's actually quite fun to attempt going down the Workplace OS rabbit hole, and to see how far I can actually get. It won't cost me anything but some emulation time & effort ... if successful, that would get item 2 on the above roadmap done.

Your thoughts?