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WebSite Information => Article Discussions => Topic started by: pryan74 on October 09, 2013, 04:12:15 pm

Title: ecs 2.2
Post by: pryan74 on October 09, 2013, 04:12:15 pm
Does any one have any thoughts as to what is going on with
ECS 2.2 GA or another beta

regards Phil
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on October 09, 2013, 06:38:17 pm
Does any one have any thoughts as to what is going on with
ECS 2.2 GA or another beta

regards Phil

Hopefully, they are working hard to get it right, this time. The last attempt was not done well.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: BigGoofyGuy on October 09, 2013, 10:17:28 pm
I would rather have them take their time and do it right instead of fast and having it come with lots of problems.  8)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2 - what about Mensys?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on October 10, 2013, 08:37:03 am
Does any one have any thoughts as to what is going on with
ECS 2.2 GA or another beta

regards Phil

This leads to some serious questions:


1.) Does Mensys still have the Licence agreement with IBM? As assumed here www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/?id=137619 (http://www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/?id=137619) (Please use Online translator) the agreement ended in 2013


2.) Does Mensys still takes/is part of the community? -> Since Warpstock there have been only a handfull post of Mensys regarding eCs 2.2, mostly announcements of Delays. Since two or three months there seems to be almost NO activity anymore while others still post their progress, like David, Lars, Wim, netlabs newsletter etc. But nothing from Mensys itself.


3.) Does Mensys still provide the Demos? As mentioned here www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/index.php3?all=137596 (http://www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/index.php3?all=137596) (Please use Online Translator) it seems not to be possible or at least makes a lot of problems to get the Demo CD of 2.2 any more - some one with the experience?

If you sum up these informations that leads to the next question: Is eCS 2.2 Dead?

I mean - if there is a request for taking part in sponsoring - there should at least be some information if the Supplier is still alive / in action and if the Supplier is able to answer or respond to the community.

Any informations here?  :-\


Title: Re: ecs 2.2 - what about Mensys?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 10, 2013, 03:21:30 pm
Please remember that we are speculating. This speculation happens because we haven't hear anything from Mensys.

1.) Does Mensys still have the Licence agreement with IBM? As assumed here www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/?id=137619 (http://www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/?id=137619) (Please use Online translator) the agreement ended in 2013

I personally think (opinion) that Mensys never had an agreement with IBM. Serenity System is the company that has the agreement with IBM and I think they are intermediaries with Mensys. But nobody ever questioned where is "Serenity Systems" today. Notice that eComStation page reference SSI (http://www.ecomstation.com/about_us.phtml).

I think that the agreement with IBM is not hard at all. You sell OEM license and at the end of the month you pay IBM for how much you sold. The only intervention with IBM I guess is "how many OEM did you sold this month?"... and "send over my check".

I don't think that Mensys will comment on this, because it is not polite (or maybe legal) to discuss the detail of your partnerships agreement.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2 - what about Mensys?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on October 10, 2013, 05:00:50 pm
But nobody ever questioned where is "Serenity Systems" today. Notice that eComStation page reference SSI (http://www.ecomstation.com/about_us.phtml).

Hi Martin,

yes I guess you are right, it was (?) Serenity Systems. But who ever knows what happend there meanwhile... The site your referred to www.ecomstation.com does not have been changed since May this year.... another proof for question 2.

I hope someone from Mensys or whomever can bring light into this, may be one of the developers?
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 10, 2013, 05:27:44 pm
Hi Sigurd

I don't think is that bad yet.

For example I see David Azarewicz that sends some announcements from time to time of the drivers he updates, so I think he is still being paid. Plus I haven't hear any complains from other teams that work with Mensys.

I want to think that there are late with the deadlines. 

But, if the worst scenario happens, we should request Mensys to release the source code of his drivers, and start building our own OS/2 distro from IBM latests public fixpacks files :)
Title: SERENITY SYSTEMS
Post by: BigGoofyGuy on October 10, 2013, 06:41:52 pm
http://serenity-systems.com/ (http://serenity-systems.com/)
It seems to still be there.  8)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: melf on October 10, 2013, 09:08:49 pm
Well, haven't been active here for some time but I'm inclined to ask the similar question as Sigurd - is eCS still alive? It is painfully quiet, more quiet I think, than it use to be. Somebody from Mensys ought to say something.
Title: Re: SERENITY SYSTEMS
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on October 11, 2013, 10:56:07 am
http://serenity-systems.com/ (http://serenity-systems.com/)
It seems to still be there.  8)

Hi Tom,

this site seems not to have been maintained for years (almost a decade I guess) as Serenity Virtual Station i.e. is dead since 2005 (?)...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVISTA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVISTA)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Alex Taylor on October 11, 2013, 11:42:17 am
As a (volunteer) developer and not a Mensys employee, I can't tell you very much.  But I do sporadically communicate with Roderick et al and I certainly haven't been told to stop developing. :)

I get the impression Roderick is pretty busy lately (with something or other), so that quite likely applies to others at Mensys. This kind of thing has happened in the past, for example two years ago when Mensys bought that other company and temporarily diverted a lot of energy into managing the takeover.

So it wouldn't surprise me if Mensys is temporarily preoccupied with some other aspect of its business. They're not a large company and, judging from my own work experience, sometimes you just need "all hands on deck" for something or other. So I suggest just being patient for now.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on October 11, 2013, 12:38:20 pm
So it wouldn't surprise me if Mensys is temporarily preoccupied with some other aspect of its business. They're not a large company and, judging from my own work experience, sometimes you just need "all hands on deck" for something or other. So I suggest just being patient for now.

Hi Alex,

with due respect I would like to say that this is something I can not agree with.

How long does it usually take for someone from the company to add a notice or a statement about what's going on there with eCs -> 10 Minutes? O.K., let's say half an hour. If it is not possible to spend at least half an hour during the last half year (!) for some information, should I conclude from this that the company does take it's product or the community serious?

To be honest - this is not a trustfully behaviour. Being patient is sometimes really usefull but here one has to be being patient for years now - even after the long time eCS 2.0 disaster (2006 - 2010) things did not change.

And please do not misinterprete (not my mothertongue) -> it does not bother me at all, it is just that I would like to know - before I continue to sponsor some things and spend money for this -> is it still there? Is it going on?

And as I have got the notion that since May no information has been provided other that the Launch of eCS 2.2 has been delayed for more than a year now - I will not go on supporting the product.

And I guess I am not the only one of that opinion. I am just simply asking for information, a right of a usual customer. Sorry.
 
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Alex Taylor on October 11, 2013, 05:10:40 pm
Sigurd,

Don't misunderstand me. I never said you shouldn't be annoyed or frustrated. To be sure, you have every right to be.

I was just pointing out that this sort of thing has happened before (and it seems like you agree with that) and it didn't mean that eCS was 'dead' then, so I don't see any reason to believe that it might now either. (I haven't really talked to anybody from Mensys since I moved back to Japan last month, but I suspect that various people would have heard, at least through the grapevine, if anything truly dire had gone down.)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Pete on October 11, 2013, 06:23:18 pm
Hi All

Last I heard anything about the 2.2 release (not sure whether it refers to another beta or GA) is an email from Roderick to the eCS TestTeam dated 10/07/2013. Roderick replies to an email asking when 2.2 will happen:-

> [ eComStation Test Team ]
>
> Thanks Roderick for the Update.
>
> So, this means, all other issues found in 2.2 Beta have been found and fixed?
> Thats good news.
>
> While I understand, Timing in Development is sometimes tricky; would you have an indication for USB work completed and 2.2 GA?

Last nuts and bolds. Lot of issue's resolved. Hopefully at the end of
this month.

Roderick


NOTE: Roderick does not mention a year...  ;-)


I can only guess other problems have been found that are not yet resolved or, as Alex suggests, Roderick & Mensys are/have been involved in other things.


Regards

Pete

Title: Re: ecs 2.2 - what about Mensys?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on October 16, 2013, 07:21:20 am

This leads to some serious questions:


1.) Does Mensys still have the Licence agreement with IBM? As assumed here www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/?id=137619 (http://www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/?id=137619) (Please use Online translator) the agreement ended in 2013


2.) Does Mensys still takes/is part of the community? -> Since Warpstock there have been only a handfull post of Mensys regarding eCs 2.2, mostly announcements of Delays. Since two or three months there seems to be almost NO activity anymore while others still post their progress, like David, Lars, Wim, netlabs newsletter etc. But nothing from Mensys itself.


3.) Does Mensys still provide the Demos? As mentioned here www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/index.php3?all=137596 (http://www.os2.de/forum/helpdesk/index.php3?all=137596) (Please use Online Translator) it seems not to be possible or at least makes a lot of problems to get the Demo CD of 2.2 any more - some one with the experience?

If you sum up these informations that leads to the next question: Is eCS 2.2 Dead?

I mean - if there is a request for taking part in sponsoring - there should at least be some information if the Supplier is still alive / in action and if the Supplier is able to answer or respond to the community.

Any informations here?  :-\

After one week of silence via Mensys (I wonder that even no actual developer has some information here, but thanks to Alex Taylor for reply) I must answer these questions myself like this

1. Possibly not - Mensys or Serenity - who cares?

2. Obviously not.

3. see 2, may be different.

"Is eCS 2.2 dead?" -> if one just follow the logical track - guess what....  :-\  In the end it is really a pitty, but life is life, there is something more important than Operating Systems  ::)



Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Greg Pringle on October 16, 2013, 07:36:51 pm
What's with all the complaining. There is steady, dry, tedious, boring work being done to keep ecs current. The people doing this have better things to do than hold your hand.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: ivan on October 16, 2013, 08:06:54 pm
Greg, you have first hand knowledge of this or is it wishful thinking.  People are getting upset because of the complete lack of any official information.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: melf on October 16, 2013, 09:22:14 pm
//--- People are getting upset because of the complete lack of any official information.

That's the crucial point!
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Greg Pringle on October 16, 2013, 10:19:50 pm
I have spoken with Bob St. John who was with Serenity Systems. He originally was the IBM executive who sold OS/2 internationally. Later he attempted to use OS/2 as a cloud platform based on Desktop On Demand. That effort failed when the development team was purchased by another company and tasked to other duties.  He said the intellectual rights to eComstation were sold to Mensys a few years ago. Mensys announced a new agreement with IBM last year which makes them in charge of future development. Bob St. John has no concerns about the development efforts of Mensys.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: jdeb on October 16, 2013, 10:29:43 pm
I am a little annoyed as I renewed my subscription with them. Not that I can't afford it but they sold me on the upcoming release of eCS2.2, so I renewed. Too me that is not ethical but that is pretty typically these days as morals and ethics are precarious. My box is perfectly stable and I am satisfied but I was hoping to offer another alternative on modern hardware. In my opinion, I would say 2.1 is the last we will see as the 2.2 Beta was horrible. Maybe they are embarrassed? 
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: eirik on October 17, 2013, 12:07:12 am
Most users currently using eCS do so because they like it.  And we are talking about version 2.1.  Which means most things people need actually work.  Admittedly, there are problems with some modern hardware, but ...

So what is it current users really need? And how to attract new users and hence build a stronger financial platform?  My guesses include:
With this perspective it could be that scarce developer resources could be better spent not focusing on the operating system itself (i.e., getting eCS 2.2 up and running in a stable way).  In brief - how often do people use suspend and resume compared to accessing some web page with JAVA or Flash?

Or is my lack of computer knowledge revealed by these questions?  Without an updated (and up to date) platform, the tasks of maintaining and developing what most users really need become too large?  And in that case, the current Mensys focus on the platform is well placed.

Let me change gears and talk about something I know more about than computers: economics and strategy.  For worried  current eCS users and for future users, it would be nice if Mensys could share their current thinking with us.  That would make current and prospective users more informed. Some would decide to end their use of eCS.  Others would gradually start using eCS.  We like open source.  But even more, we like transparent strategies.  So Mensys, please end your silence and invite us on your journey.  Without us, I struggle to find a good future for eCS.

Eirik
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 17, 2013, 12:17:25 am
Thanks Greg for letting us know this.

In that case I don't know why the eComStation.com page is still associated with Serenity Systems. Maybe they never updated the page. 

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: R.M. Klippstein on October 17, 2013, 02:35:19 am
Am I the only person that can't access either the "Bug Tracker" or the "Beta Zone"?

klipp
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on October 17, 2013, 06:48:35 am
Am I the only person that can't access either the "Bug Tracker" or the "Beta Zone"?

klipp

No. I can't get there either, in the eCS web site, or through Software Subscription. That is probably a good sign. At least something is happening at Mensys.   :)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: eirik on October 17, 2013, 10:23:09 pm
Dough and others,

I can get in on the Beta zone, and apparently things are working the way it should there.  I see no reason that should not be working even if Mensys devote all their resources on something else.  On the other side, I am still somewhat worried about the future and Mensys' lack of communication.  It would take much to calm down our nerves (or in the case the "game is over", tell us so that we can start to explore alternatives.

Eirik
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 17, 2013, 10:24:40 pm
Everything is working as usual from my side with Mensys and eComStation sites.

I also saw yesterday a Roderick's email about some other eComStation related subject. So I think that show that we had not been left "High n' Dry"  :D

I think that they are just very busy this days.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on October 17, 2013, 10:52:32 pm
I see that the betazone is back online. Obviously, something crashed, or somebody was doing some updates. In any case, it is running again, which indicates that somebody is doing something behind the scenes.

Those who seem to think that Mensys should be commenting, fail to realize that Roderick is the only guy who ever pops up here, and Roderick is not the best communicator on earth. He is also VERY busy trying to manage eCS, and there is a lot more to it than just getting eCS 2.2 out the door. I expect that he is putting in a lot of long hours, and doesn't even think about trying to keep people informed. At least this time, they seem to be doing a lot more testing, to be sure that it is right.

As for exploring alternatives, I don't see that the end is at hand, but the end is a distinct possibility, sometime in the not too distant future. It would probably be smart for all users to investigate alternatives, especially if eCS has become a limitation for them. ECS will continue to run until there is no longer hardware that it can run on. Depending on what the developers can accomplish, that may take a while, or it may happen soon. Then, it seems that virtual machines will keep it going for some time after that.

Those who wish to keep eCS (OS/2) alive had better step up, and help the cause. Whether that is by donating money to various projects, buying eCS, buying Software Subscription, doing software testing, or any number of other things, doesn't matter. At the moment, eCS needs "all hands on deck", or it will sink. Find a way to help out.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Ben on October 17, 2013, 10:55:17 pm
I have no idea why people think that Mensys has abandoned eCS... just because there has been a lull in texting activity.

There has been many such lulls before and it means... nothing!

It makes for idle chitchat, but can hardly be taken seriously.

Unless there is some significant reason that has emerged and fully formed to cause us to believe that something strange has happened, it is safe to assume that all is... normal.

I have heard nothing here or elsewhere to indicate anything otherwise.

When they have something to say and the time in which to say it... they will!

Just like always...

Rumour mongering and fear mongering has never lead to anything, but trouble. Sh*t disturbing, it is often called.

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: melf on October 17, 2013, 11:44:59 pm
Well Ben, communication is never wrong either, it counteracts rumours. I don't Think that anyone expects that much. It would suffice with a row now and then on an official place. News.ecomstation.com would be suitable.
Title: Phonecall with Mensys Yesterday, 17th of October 2013
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on October 18, 2013, 08:36:37 am
Rumour mongering and fear mongering has never lead to anything, but trouble. Sh*t disturbing, it is often called.
[/color]

To be honest: I totally disagree with that point. We are talking about business, investing money - and for me it is important to know if there is something going on or not - before I invest more money - and if it comes that far that rumours are the one and only informations one does have - that speaks for itself I guess.

And I would like to stress it again: How much time does it take to give a small statement? 10 Minutes? 15? That must be a joking if the reason for giving no state might be: "not enough time, to busy".... Boring.

But, in the end it does not matter at all as this discussion leads to nowhere.

I took the easy way and made a telefon call yesterday with Mensys, speaking both with Joachim and Roderick to get answers regarding my "serious questions". It was all in all a short call and the informations I got are:

- Roderick has been ill since a while, but back at work and recovering now - All the best to him!
- Joachim confirms that "we are working on eCS 2.2"
- there have been problems with the data engine, therefore beta zone etc. have not been availiable, solved now

After my questions I have allways been parked in the waiting loop for a while before I got the answers.

As mentioned it was a short call, I did not get any information about fixed dates, dates at all, the current state and so on. The answers have been very short.

I did as well ask why there is no respone in the forums and the answer was "We know the problem".

So, that was what I was able to get straight from the horse mouth and that's all.

One has to conclude for himself what that all might mean, facts or rumours.



Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: R.M. Klippstein on October 18, 2013, 05:43:19 pm
Job well done Sigurd! Thanks

klipp
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: jdeb on October 18, 2013, 05:51:40 pm
That is encouraging. Thanks Sigurd.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Ben on October 18, 2013, 07:54:59 pm
I did not say Sigurd, that you have no valid business concerns regarding, or not regarding Mensys.

I was addressing the responses to this thread in general.

I did say, however, that there is no reason to believe that Mensys has abandoned eCS... and if there is such a reason, it has not been posted in this thread. What there has been posted, is merely the manifestations of insecurities that have rippled into rumours; they never go anywhere good.

But, more to the point, with the dozens, (if not hundreds), of wide-spread rumours that there has been about the demise of OS/2 over the years, the very last thing that Mensys needs, is another death rumour to start... given that they have spent years, trying to quell the existing ones; this can only be problematic for us all.

It is good that you received and posted, your responses from Mensys, (someone who is not afraid to make a phone call and initiate real research), for you have ended it well... or rather I should say, it ends well here... assuming no more relevant replies follow.

At any rate, I am glad that your fears have been put to rest. 8)

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: warp on November 07, 2013, 08:36:29 pm
Most users currently using eCS do so because they like it.  And we are talking about version 2.1.  Which means most things people need actually work.  Admittedly, there are problems with some modern hardware, but ...

So what is it current users really need? And how to attract new users and hence build a stronger financial platform?  My guesses include:
  • Net access, wired and preferably also wireless.
  • Well working key software in an increasingly connected world = well working web browsers and email clients (which we have, but where the age of the current Gecko platform is starting to show).
  • Working VPN/remote computer access (which we really do not have)
  • With JAVA becoming increasingly important (despite some security issues), an updated JAVA (where work is on the way)
With this perspective it could be that scarce developer resources could be better spent not focusing on the operating system itself (i.e., getting eCS 2.2 up and running in a stable way).  In brief - how often do people use suspend and resume compared to accessing some web page with JAVA or Flash?

Or is my lack of computer knowledge revealed by these questions?  Without an updated (and up to date) platform, the tasks of maintaining and developing what most users really need become too large?  And in that case, the current Mensys focus on the platform is well placed.

Let me change gears and talk about something I know more about than computers: economics and strategy.  For worried  current eCS users and for future users, it would be nice if Mensys could share their current thinking with us.  That would make current and prospective users more informed. Some would decide to end their use of eCS.  Others would gradually start using eCS.  We like open source.  But even more, we like transparent strategies.  So Mensys, please end your silence and invite us on your journey.  Without us, I struggle to find a good future for eCS.

Eirik


We discussed briefly with an Italian developer and asked him which are the possible steps for a complete rewriting of OS/-eCS. I translated that ideas into English and I would like to share them on this newsgroup. I don't intend to start a war, but I would like to stimulate possible constructive ideas. Probably most of you already know such things.


"The problem is, besides the source code, the big number of components, which are not produced by IBM.

Even if we remove/replace such components, there are many problems.

The most important ones:

- recompiling and updating the kernel to 64 bit with readjustment of all data structures. Theoretically, that shouldn't be too complicated, but many kernel’s parts  have been coded in Assembler x86 and that could be a limitation.

The kernel has about 25 years from the 2.1 version and it didn’t get updated since 2006. In spite of that, it is competitive with the most recent kernels.

Besides that, there are components which are really old and didn’t use the features introduced by the CPUs from 2004 until now.

-The same thing for the whole graphic subsystem.

-A complete elimination of the parts written by Micro$oft and a possible replacement with open source components: DOSBox and Virtualization.

-Drivers: The big, complex chapter. In this area we would need a complete change of model. Perhaps we colud use the Linux or BSD driver model as start, but we would need to convert OS/2 for license reasons.

- PM and WPS: SOM is still very powerful and it could be reproduced. The task would be huge and many expert programmers would be required.
PM now has many limits if compared with the past, but its APIs remain a milestone (I am not joking: for completeness, coherence and quality, they beat the Win64 APIs 6-0 6-0 6-0.

- TCP/IP: Even in that area, there would be a need of many programmers for stack's coding. The stack itself derives completely from BSD.
The solution could be taking the BSD's stack, but changing MPTS with something else. In my opinion, the model itself is not bad, but it needs a complete update and an integration with an updated driver support.

- Many other points. We would a lot of programmers. Mensys doesn't have so many resources."
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Ben on November 07, 2013, 11:34:48 pm
Some good info, Warp, thanks. 8)

But most of this has been discussed in the past and most recently with the Voyager Project that turned into mist well, years ago now. 8(

Really, the only thing that remains alive, (save what Mensys does), is the OS/3 project which has enough life left into it to say that it is still alive... but nothing else.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 08, 2013, 02:03:57 pm
Warp, Ben.

It had been hard to do a full open source clone at one shot, by trying to clone kernel, Loader, GPI, PM, SOM, WPS at the same time. Thats why I had been discussing the idea of an open source OS/2 clone based on the idea of Voyager, but focused as first step only to replace the WPS classes with open source clones.

I really think that if we focus on an open source WPS classes replacement over eComStation and Warp 4.52 we can send a good message to the Internet about we are doing positive steps to have an open source clone of OS/2 and get more help.

I posted the comments on the history of my blog Open Warp (http://openwarp.blogspot.com/).

About OSFree, I like a lot htat project because they have choosen a formal open source license. But sadly there are no resources helping on this project, plus, it is also too big for "one shot", it need to develop littler milestones showing components that can be replaced on the working OS/2.

About OS/4 (russian team). I also wish them good luck, but I what I don't like is that they do not use a formal open source license. It is freeware for individual use, and that blocks anybody that wants to do something deeper with that project. I don't know why the russian team working on that project thinks that open source helps big corporation to make money on they efforts.

I think that they do not understand "CopyLeft" (a concept inside the GNU GPL license) which forces everybody to give out the source code of any improvement they do inside the project. So, it does not matter if a corporation or an individual is doing money with open source as long as they give back the source code of the improvements. In other words it does not matter if you are big or small, the source code is the same for everyone and have the same "technical" conditions.


But what I need is to try to build an open source development team that wants to search only for one goal for the moment "A 100% replacement  of the eCS-Warp 4.5 WPS classes".
- Use an open source license (copyleft) to have the rules clear that the source code will belong to all of us (community).
- It does not matter if they only want to focus on one single class, or if they only have 20 minutes at month to help.
- The idea is to reuse the source code that we have from other projects (Xworkplace, HWman, XShadows, etc)
- The idea is that every little effort sum to have a WPS clone.
- Start with anything, it does not matter if it is WPClock (http://www.edm2.com/index.php/OS2_API:SOM:Classes:WPClock) or any other, but have an 100% open source replacement of it.

Regards
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: warp on November 11, 2013, 10:54:32 pm
Warp, Ben.

It had been hard to do a full open source clone at one shot, by trying to clone kernel, Loader, GPI, PM, SOM, WPS at the same time. Thats why I had been discussing the idea of an open source OS/2 clone based on the idea of Voyager, but focused as first step only to replace the WPS classes with open source clones.

I really think that if we focus on an open source WPS classes replacement over eComStation and Warp 4.52 we can send a good message to the Internet about we are doing positive steps to have an open source clone of OS/2 and get more help.

I posted the comments on the history of my blog Open Warp (http://openwarp.blogspot.com/).

About OSFree, I like a lot htat project because they have choosen a formal open source license. But sadly there are no resources helping on this project, plus, it is also too big for "one shot", it need to develop littler milestones showing components that can be replaced on the working OS/2.

About OS/4 (russian team). I also wish them good luck, but I what I don't like is that they do not use a formal open source license. It is freeware for individual use, and that blocks anybody that wants to do something deeper with that project. I don't know why the russian team working on that project thinks that open source helps big corporation to make money on they efforts.

I think that they do not understand "CopyLeft" (a concept inside the GNU GPL license) which forces everybody to give out the source code of any improvement they do inside the project. So, it does not matter if a corporation or an individual is doing money with open source as long as they give back the source code of the improvements. In other words it does not matter if you are big or small, the source code is the same for everyone and have the same "technical" conditions.


But what I need is to try to build an open source development team that wants to search only for one goal for the moment "A 100% replacement  of the eCS-Warp 4.5 WPS classes".
- Use an open source license (copyleft) to have the rules clear that the source code will belong to all of us (community).
- It does not matter if they only want to focus on one single class, or if they only have 20 minutes at month to help.
- The idea is to reuse the source code that we have from other projects (Xworkplace, HWman, XShadows, etc)
- The idea is that every little effort sum to have a WPS clone.
- Start with anything, it does not matter if it is WPClock (http://www.edm2.com/index.php/OS2_API:SOM:Classes:WPClock) or any other, but have an 100% open source replacement of it.

Regards

The Voyager Project seemed to be interesting, but perhaps it was another example of ineffective communication.
I agree that clonig the whole system is too much. Replacing the WPS classes could be a good first step of a successful path!
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Andi B. on November 12, 2013, 12:06:36 pm
Quote
The Voyager Project seemed to be interesting, but perhaps it was another example of ineffective communication.
I doubt communication was the main problem but to lees volunteers to do the work.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 12, 2013, 01:28:15 pm
I think that the two things are important:

1) Good communication about the progress, as little or much that is happening, and communication of what is missing and required.
2) Just focus on one thing at the time (like starting with WPS Classes). Sometimes we try to cover too much on the first step and people gets overwhelmed by the huge monster that is cloning OS/2.


...and yes, we are missing developers. But we have to keep trying.

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 12, 2013, 07:19:30 pm
I am not so sure that the WPS is the place to start. The WPS is still working well. Other parts are beginning to fall apart, and if they don't work, the WPS isn't going to be very useful.

The immediate parts, that come to mind (in no particular order) are:
UEFI. This will be a killer, very soon.
Video driver (SNAP has been obtained, and Panorama is working pretty well, but acceleration is missing).
IPv6 (not yet required, but...).
WiFi drivers. (planned, but not yet done).
WLAN drivers.
Bluetooth support.
Firewire support (this was started years ago, but was never finished).
USB 3.0 support.
Support for disks greater than 2 TB.
Take some of the load off of Paul Smedley. He is overloaded by keeping the development tools up to date, he doesn't need to be the one who updates things like CUPS, HPLIP, HPAIO, and a dozen other things that have been sorted out, but are essential to keep eCS viable.

I am sure there are a few hundred other things that need to be updated/fixed, before the WPS comes to the top of the list. Of course, there are developers who know various parts of the system better than other parts, so there is really no fixed order to doing the updates. It doesn't make much sense to have someone, who is a driver specialist, trying to update the WPS, or the other way around. I would note, that most of my list would be drivers. It also doesn't make much sense for 2 driver specialists to be working on the same driver, independently.

Another thing, is that any updates/fixes, need to be tested. Those who can't do the development, can do testing. They can also contribute to those who do the development, to keep them interested.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 12, 2013, 08:53:52 pm
Hi Doug.

I'm focused on an Open Source OS/2 because we need to grow the community and keep the continuity of the platform. I think that one of the stoppers to make an OS/2 clone is that OS/2 is still working fine today, so nobody wants to touch the things that keep working.

I share that we need all that, but if tomorrow a good wifi, bluetooth, IPV6 drivers/programs shows up, that will not help this community to grow, it will only give us air until the next gen of devices shows up.

That why we need a long term strategy, we need to make OS/2 accessible to everyone and ensure its life beyond IBM,  Mensys and us as individuals. That is the importance of making an OS/2 clone. It is not only to support hardware today, it is to maintain the platform in the future. The one path that I can think about is to make an open source clone.

Thanks Doug for offering on testing, I'm not a developer, so I'm also signing in for testing, icons, documentation and whatever I can do. But I need to try convince developers to look into WPS and try to generate more development in this side.

Regards
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Eugene Gorbunoff on November 12, 2013, 10:45:13 pm
1) Does Voyager project relate to OS/2? I don't this so. As I remember, it was about copying WPS desktop to other platforms.
That's why OS/2 people didn't supported it.

2) Currently people buy eCS licenses. People don't pay for support service to service providers.
In this model, there is no need to open source OS/2 / eCS, All development goes on eCS money. There is no other interested commercial companies.

It will be automatically open-sourced if several companies create solutions based on OS/2, attract many customers, pay for all bills, pay for all development. In this model, this companies will open source own code to cooperate.

But this doesn't happen. So, eCS will stay semi-commercial, semi-open-sourced.

 
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 12, 2013, 11:11:50 pm
Sorry Eugene, but we have different approachs.

You sell eComStation software licenses and that is the only business model you know. Thats why you don't understand that open sourcing (creating a OS/2 clone) will be a better for all as a long term strategy.

Please notice that right now the "business" are big corporate customers that buys eComStation since they can not quit OS/2 for the moment. Once this big customers migrate to newer platforms that will be no more business. sorry.

The rest that you wrote I don't understand it. If more people buys eComStation and develop more software for it it will not get "automatically" open sourced. Any close source software that gets generated today for this plataform is just "future abandonware". It seems that you have some problems on the translation.

Regards

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Eugene Gorbunoff on November 13, 2013, 12:39:16 am
I am not against open-source.

eComStation includes many open-sourced components already.

My message: eCS will stay "semi-open sourced" (partly open sourced), and partly closed.

It's impossible create open source OS/2. As I said, it can be created by several corporations but we don't have this businessmen.
To maintain open source OS you need millions dollars every year. To maintain eCS you need XX thousand dollars only.
There is no funds (capital) on eCS market, that's why eCS is partially closed.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 13, 2013, 02:47:21 am
I disagreed.

While there are people telling us that it can not be done, that it is impossible, that it is better to lay down our arms and wait for the destiny to take over, there are other projects that shows me that it can be done:

- Linux is a Unix clone.
- Haiku OS a BeOS clone.
- ReactOS is a Windows clone.

All those projects are steps ahead of us cloning the platforms that they like. I don't know why people think this is a project to be completed in two months. The reality is that we need to start now if we want to see some progress in some 5 years.  We need to create traction, we need to attract more developers.

Let the people that have other interests to keep saying whatever they want, but I can not hear anymore to the people that says that it is impossible, they are already defeated.

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 13, 2013, 02:52:06 am
Please check the first 30 minutes of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVXt_dELZNo

See how this projects started, and now they have VMs with an Windows open source clone. It is not impossible.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 13, 2013, 04:34:26 am
Quote
'm focused on an Open Source OS/2 because we need to grow the community and keep the continuity of the platform. I think that one of the stoppers to make an OS/2 clone is that OS/2 is still working fine today, so nobody wants to touch the things that keep working.

Open source is not that important. I agree that any new work should be open source, but I don't see a problem with using closed source parts, as long as they work. You are partly right, that nobody wants to touch the parts that are working, but another part of that is that there are a number of areas that nobody knows anything about. It would be very difficult to build a TV set, if you don't know anything but carpentry. You would end up with a great cabinet, but could you watch TV shows on it?  Today, it is difficult to get anybody to work on something that might require some knowledge of assembler, simply because nobody does that any more. I also don't see much hope that anybody who is taking a course in computer programming will ever hear that there is a language called assembler, never mind learn how to use it.

Quote
That why we need a long term strategy, we need to make OS/2 accessible to everyone and ensure its life beyond IBM

I think the main problem with that is, that OS/2 has already survived for the "long term". Many good programmers have moved on, simply because they have lost interest. Many users have also moved on, simply because OS/2 (as eCS) simply cannot do what needs to be done. If you start to pull the programmers that are left, off of the life support projects, it will be all over, before the first beta of whatever they decide to work on, becomes available for testing. So, I guess there is a choice to be made. Continue, more or less, as we have been doing, and hope for the best, or start to port the WPS to another platform (some sort of Linux base, I would assume). As you acknowledge, it would be a long term project, but OS/2 is already gasping for breath because there are not enough people working on it, and those who are working on it don't have the time to do anything else. If the WPS is not ported to another platform, there will be nothing left to run it on, by the time it exists. A lot of time, and effort, has already been expended, to make the desktop look better. From what I have seen, so far, it was a wasted effort, with little value. Meanwhile, we can't even connect to the internet, using modern WiFi devices. There will be very few people attracted to eCS without WiFi support. Bluetooth, and WLAN (among other things), are not far behind.

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, but one must look at reality, and say "good thought", but it isn't going to happen, unless more than one person wins the BIG jackpot, and donates it all to the cause. The only other possibilities would be that IBM would wake up, and take it back, or that Microsoft would wade in and do the job (yeah, okay...). Believing in any of those possibilities would be considered to be delusional, and could get you locked away, in a padded room, for your own protection. Then, there is the migration to portable devices. We can't even get drivers for a lot of the new I/O. In another few years, <speculation> the boxes that we call "desktops", will house the new super computers, and people will be wearing watches that do ten times what today's desktops, cell phones, etc. can do </speculation>. I suspect that the WPS will be just as obsolete as video tape has become. What is left will still work, but nobody will actually want to use it any more. Meanwhile, with careful allocation of resources, we can keep what we have going, for a while. OS/2 has already had a remarkable run, but all good things come to an end, eventually, and the usual cause of their demise, is something better. From what I have seen, I think that Linux has finally matured enough to be usable. In a few more years, it will probably take over, and surpass OS/2 (it has already gone past windows, IMO). It is also the ultimate example of open source, which seems to be something that you want to see.

Meanwhile, I think that Mensys has been doing a reasonable job of continuing the life of the product, even if they don't seem to have much of an idea about quality control, or project management. They have been making the tough decisions (right or wrong), and they seem to be making enough money to cover the costs, even if it isn't enough to do the "big push forward". Most users are along for the ride, and continue to use eCS because it does what they need to have done. When eCS fails to do what is necessary, or when something better comes along, they will be off the train.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 13, 2013, 01:56:14 pm
Quote
Open source is not that important. I agree that any new work should be open source, but I don't see a problem with using closed source parts, as long as they work.

I disagreed with that. The close source components that are working now are called "Abandomware". There are no possibility to expand or improve them. IBM has dumped us and they don't want to give us the source code to keep improving it under our own risk.  IBM has the source and the rights of it. if eCS stops selling and IBM decide to turn off the contract with Mensys we are done. ...again :)

If the author (IBM) is not working on the software, they solely own the code, it is close source and does not gives a way to create derivative work, it is perceived as a dead project and people will not buy it and developers will not invest on it. On Windows and Linux you don't perceive it that way, because Windows has a good marketshare and Linux is open source (so it does not depends on a single development group)

Quote
Continue, more or less, as we have been doing, and hope for the best, or start to port the WPS to another platform (some sort of Linux base, I would assume). As you acknowledge, it would be a long term project...
...I really don't mind if WPS gets ported to other platform. But today we don't have anything. If we start making an open source clone of WPS Classes today at least there will be a chance to port it later to other platforms if needed/wanted.

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, but one must look at reality...
I think that going after open source WPS classes is a good way to start and it is based on the reality. Please notice that it is not impossible, check ReactOS, check Haiku OS. We only need to show some progress and it will snowball, there will be more people willing to join.

Quote
...and could get you locked away, in a padded room, for your own protection.
Came on Doug. I had been posting OS/2 news for 12 years and haven't received a cent. I do this for fun, if the discussion gets to nasty or if it starts to make problem with my family I will pause or stop this at once. Please notice that I understand that my family is first, I'm not that crazy ... yet :)

Quote
OS/2 has already had a remarkable run, but all good things come to an end, eventually, and the usual cause of their demise, is something better. From what I have seen, I think that Linux has finally matured enough to be usable. In a few more years, it will probably take over, and surpass OS/2 (it has already gone past windows, IMO). It is also the ultimate example of open source, which seems to be something that you want to see.
Linux/Windows are today a better alternative to OS/2, that's is why it is hard to convince new people to join. Windows has all the drivers and a big installed base. Linux is free, open source and can be turned into everything.

But we are the OS/2 community, The people that putted their arms down and said it is over and said someday this is going to end already left this community.
We are the only ones left, we are the only survivors and we want to keep going with this platform.

Why don't we do anything about it?
There is the plan to keep patching it until it will be no longer possible. My suggestion is to start working to replace WPS classes over eComStation/Warp 4.5 and in the future move on to SOM and PM.

With PM/SOM/WPS open sourced we will have almost the OS/2 spirit opened and that will bring attention to our community. And it will show that we have  chance of surviving.

Quote
Meanwhile, I think that Mensys has been doing a reasonable job of continuing the life of the product,
I don't disagreed with this. But their business model is very volatile. I agreed that they keep selling license and re-invest on the product as long as it is a good business. But my personal opinion is that they need to think in the future and start replacing OS/2 with open source components more aggressively. Once day the selling license business will fall and IBM will close they agreement if it is not profitable (that's the way they work).  I thank Mensys for all their investment in open source software (Qt4, OpenJDK, AHCI, Mozilla, etc).... but I just try to see more into the future.


There is phrase I'm quoting.

Quote
"Can it be done? I don’t know. But if you don’t set a goal, you won’t start moving towards it."


About WPS Clonning:
- Let's make every little effort to sum on WPS clonning. (Wiki documentation in 5 minutes at day, checking XWorkplace code, reading about WPS to understand it better).
- Lets start checking what already we have on XWorkplace and other open source projects.
- Lets start making a 100% replacement on this class and keep adding more.

EDM/2 has very good articles to help us start with this and I'm not just reading, I'm posting back to it when I have 5 minutes of time, lets sum up.

Regards
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Eugene Gorbunoff on November 13, 2013, 06:37:14 pm
1) eCS is situated in other conditions. Different financial situation, different agreements, different market.
So, we have other way.


2) It's difficult compare eCS with Haiku or Linux.

* Linux is supported by large corporations: IBM, ..

* IMHO, eComStation way of development was more effective than Haiku's method of development. We got ACPI early.
We have the market of shareware products.


3) We (all users) support your activity in collection of source code, negotiations regarding abandonware.
But I repeat again, IMHO, eCS will stay semi-commercial (in the next 3 years).

Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 13, 2013, 07:11:32 pm
Quote
But I repeat again, IMHO, eCS will stay semi-commercial (in the next 3 years).

What is going to happen after 3 years? I don't find it nice to say "lets see what happens".  Let's make the plan today for a long term strategy. Let's start working on making an open source WPS class replacement today.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 13, 2013, 10:16:56 pm
Quote
What is going to happen after 3 years? I don't find it nice to say "lets see what happens".  Let's make the plan today for a long term strategy. Let's start working on making an open source WPS class replacement today.

If you take enough developers out of the development pool to do that, eCS won't run on any new hardware in 3 years. It is already having trouble running on a lot of new hardware, and the developers are going flat out, trying to fix that problem. ECS will continue to run on older hardware, which should be okay for those who continue to use it, until they need a new machine, or some function that doesn't work.

I expect that eCS, in it's current form, will last long enough to see the demise of the desktop computer. To adapt it to things like the iPad, or cell phones, would be an even bigger project than what you envision. Even Microsoft is struggling with that one. If there is no hardware that will run OS/2, there is no OS to run the WPS, new or old. What runs today, will continue to run, but OS/2 has hit critical mass. There are not enough users to support new development, other than to develop a few drivers, and we are not likely to attract new users, if eCS won't run on new hardware. The WPS itself, is not going to save OS/2. What is becoming very evident, is that the only way forward is to concentrate on making eCS work in virtual machines. Virtual machines already add a lot of overhead to running OS/2 (or any other OS), but it will also become evident that there is no point in running something like Firefox (or any other program that has been ported from the host OS environment) in a virtual machine, when it runs at least as well (and probably better) in the host OS (windows, or Linux). That leaves a few "special" programs, written specifically for OS/2, that need to run in the OS/2 environment, and there are not a lot of them that depend on the WPS. Almost all recent development has concentrated on porting programs from other environments (usually Linux), with varying results. By doing that, there is becoming less reason to actually use OS/2, and none of them use the WPS. It is a self defeating strategy, but following your plan will kill it faster, simply because there will be nobody left to work on the basics.

As I have said before, all good things eventually come to an end. OS/2 has had a good run, and it can be useful for some time yet, but it will come to an end. Unfortunately, the end is in sight. Not because eCS doesn't look modern (or other silly considerations), but because the whole desktop, and laptop, platform is coming to an end. It would not be possible for anyone less than IBM, or Microsoft, to make all of the necessary changes to adapt to that reality, in time for it to happen. Linux will survive, simply because it is already the OS for the new devices, and Microsoft is moving that way, as fast as they can. PC sales, world wide, have dropped drastically in the last few years. Once they become more expensive to produce, than the hand held devices, they will quickly disappear. 3 years? Maybe 5, but not much more than that. ECS will live on in older hardware, and in virtual machines, but there will be no new software developed (the "killer app" if you like) that would be likely to cause enough excitement to save the whole thing. Those companies that are still supporting eCS are not going to develop new software for eCS. Once enough new stuff is developed for other platforms, eCS will become redundant, and it will simply be abandoned, as DOS has been abandoned. There is nothing wrong with DOS, it simply can't do the job any more. Pretty soon, OS/2 will be in that same position, whether the WPS has been rebuilt, or not.

So, the only real option, is to keep it going as long as possible, but that means concentrating the talent where it can do some good, in the short term. Taking resources from that path will simply make it die faster. If you can get some interest from the Linux community, to develop a new WPS for Linux (IBM might be interested, but I suspect that they would have done it by now, if they were), go for it, but don't count on doing it for OS/2. I think you will find that the Linux community is already divided over how to do such things, and they won't be very interested in adding another path. They too are struggling with the new reality of hand held devices.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Eugene Gorbunoff on November 13, 2013, 11:00:16 pm
To Martin:

XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

We have created several WPS classes (NeoWPS extenders) . But nobody is interested buy out this modules and make them open-source.
We can't open source as is because we have spend many efforts and resources and didn't returned the investments.
Who will pay for open-source WPS classes? There is no sponsor or service providers (as I said in previous messages).
The developer which will create new class or extender will publish it as shareware. There is no other way to compensate the efforts.


To Doug:
The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.


Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: mickhead on November 13, 2013, 11:13:06 pm
I sometimes hear people say that "desktops and laptops will one day go away". I can't take this notion seriously. It's an overstatement in the sense that the market for these users may shrink compared to users who solely wish to consume, but there will always be people who use desktops and laptops. Ever try to update a website using a tablet? Do desktop publishing on 7 inch screen? Create graphics? It doesn't work that well.

Whether the remaining desktop and laptop users are enough to support eComStation in the long run, I don't know.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 14, 2013, 01:51:58 am
Quote
Ever try to update a website using a tablet? Do desktop publishing on 7 inch screen? Create graphics? It doesn't work that well.

Well, it is just as easy, if you simply add a screen (can be a modern TV set, which most people have anyway, but could be any number of other things, that haven't been announced yet), a proper keyboard, and a mouse. Beside that, what makes you think that people will be using the current generation of screens? Look at what Google has done to a pair of glasses. Throw in voice recognition, and a bit of artificial intelligence, and you no longer have the current restrictions. It all needs software support though.

Quote
The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.

I think you are wrong. Why would anyone want a desktop system, when they can have something that is just as powerful, more common, better supported, and probably a lot cheaper? As I said above, add a screen, keyboard, and mouse, and you have what we call a desktop today. You also have a portable device, when you want it. Today, they are separate markets. Very soon, it will be one market. It wasn't all that long ago that the digital camera market was separated from the cell phone market. There are still high end cameras (supported mostly by those who want/need special lenses), but cell phones now take pictures that are just as good as the cheaper cameras take. The result is that cheaper cameras are not selling very well (if they still exist). Technology moves on, eCS cannot move fast enough to keep up. Business is out to make money. Making, and selling, 1000 desktops, or laptops, will not make any money for any company that tries it, they need large volumes, or they need to charge a LOT more for each unit. The market will be gone. When the market is gone, the product also goes away, and that is already happening. Whether it is a good thing, or not, remains to be seen, but it will happen.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 14, 2013, 02:34:42 am
XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

Eugene, Please don't try to rewrite history.  Please read: http://www.os2ezine.com/v4n4/open.htm

Ulrich Möllers is the one to thank about XWorkplace turning open source. eCS money was used to fix some bugs on it, but Ulrich is the one you have to thank we have that software on eComStation.  If XWorkplace, OpenOffice, Firefox, WarpIn wouldn't be open source you will not have it on eCS today.

Please respect the authors of open source software.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 14, 2013, 02:38:20 am
Doug, there is no problem if you don't share to open up WPS classes, you have a valid opinion but I don't share it.

I think if we make OS/2 free and available to the public (by creating an open source clone) it will be easier to attract more users to get more hardware working on it.  While we suffers for the little developers resources we have, we don't see on the other side how to attract other ones.

Sorry, but I will keep trying.

Thanks for the feedback Doug. 
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Ben on November 14, 2013, 02:50:49 am
What amazes me now and what has always amazed me, is how much effort people will put into tearing a construction down or in seeing that it never starts.

Yet, these same people will put zero effort into helping that construction... be it... whatever.

If someone, (or every one), does not believe in the creation of something, just leave it alone and it will die a death of neglect.

What amazes me is not that people do this, but that people do this as a whole. And they will do it even if their efforts amounts to self abuse!.. as it often does.

The illusion that school-book history gives us is that people band together to create something large in times of need. The reality is that people pull together to tear apart.



But why does this happen?

It happens because the people that put so much effort into tearing something down are serving their own personal agendas that they keep hidden. Most often these agendas are to serve petty needs, (nothing grandiose going on  here), and not even to serve a competitive construction; the preference of one path over another.

I personally would have OS/2 continue on for a long time... past my death even. I could care less about all of the reasons why no one sees this happening; it matters not one whit!

However, if I -in whatever small way- wanted to put some effort into one side or the other, it would without a doubt! be on the constructive side.



What does all that mean?

If means if you want to see OS/2 continue, then why not put your efforts into solving problems rather than displaying them as personal triumphs of intellect when they are merely the inflation of obstacles which serve no productive cause... time for those people to have a look inside and to ask themselves why they do it! They know why. But they will never touch it!


Martin has provided an excellent opportunity to brainstorm, (in the modern sense of the term), on possible solutions to the impending demise of our favourite OS.

Such an opportunity would seem to me to be... desperately... needed and more than a little welcomed... by us as a whole


If anyone does not want OS/2 to survive then start your trek now! and stop trying to halt Martin's present instigation and past/present voluntary work... which has been -in case anyone has  not noticed over the past years- in trying to lay the ground work to help keep OS/2 alive!



From me personally Martin, I say THANKS!                    (FYI: Purple is the colour of royalty.)

I may not have written much on your work over the years, but do not think that I haven't noticed.


Unfortunately I do not, (at least at this point), have much to contribute, but I have made it clear where I stand and where I will put my efforts, by the typing of this message.

Keep at it!

Do not let the nay-sayers drag you down! If enough good people want it, it WILL happen!
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Paul Smedley on November 14, 2013, 07:59:03 am
XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

what a load of rubbish. Ulrich Moeller did the bulk of development, and made it open source. Paul Ratcliffe has supported it since Ulrich departed. To the best of my knowledge, neither of these guys were paid a cent from eCS money.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on November 14, 2013, 08:53:58 am
To Martin:

XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

We have created several WPS classes (NeoWPS extenders) . But nobody is interested buy out this modules and make them open-source.
We can't open source as is because we have spend many efforts and resources and didn't returned the investments.
Who will pay for open-source WPS classes? There is no sponsor or service providers (as I said in previous messages).
The developer which will create new class or extender will publish it as shareware. There is no other way to compensate the efforts.


To Doug:
The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.

It is really a shame. As mentioned earlier Ulrich Möller did it almost all - for free. So no wonder - How can business (ecs.ru) be taken serious if telling this crazy fairy tales?

And there is no wonder that no one would want to pay for the Neo WPS Extenders - simply as these things make eComStation instable. And yes, I can proof that as I have eComStation 2.2 on the one and and OS/2 Merlin 4.52 without all ecosoftware in it but the most new drivers on the other hand. Unfortunately the Splitview and other "enhancements" of eCS 2.2 just messed the WPS up for me. On the other hand there have been such good improvements like ACPI, AHCI and so on, but...

In my personal opinion all are right here (well not all but..  ::) :P ):

- OS/2 - eCS in the actual presentation will come to an end
- workstation and Laptops will be reduced, but I doubt those will vanish
- OS/2 - eCS will possibly survive in an virtual enviroment - but I doubt there is much demand for this other than
  a.) playing aorund with OS
  b.) remembering the good old days
  c.) some have critical applications that MUST run OS/2
-> I guess those with c.) almost changed to an virtual enviroment

Martins idea is really great, Doug is in my opinion realistic (a bit hard I guess) and Ben is taking it to serious, I fear  ;) - as this is just an discussion and as Martin stressed before - something I can fully support and have said often before - there is really something more important than Operating System on earth ::)

In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware. On the other hand - if you choose the wrong hardware - remebering IBMs Power PC and OS/2 for Power PC - it would not have helped that much. But may have settled a small market share. And trust in future developement.

What I tried to do and was working on for some month in 2011 - with some kind of result, that did not satisfied me though - was that idea:

I tried to build an bootable USB stick using Linux, that automatically starts Linux and then OS/2 in a virtual machine. So that it can use Linux drivers for all the hardware and pass it through via Virtualbox to OS/2, with hiding Linux as good as possible.

What do you think: would it be possible to try to make it that way?

Building an automatically process that is starting Linux (not only with an USB stick, with all media, a laptop, an desktop...) hiding a Linux shell, automatically starting a virtual enviroment (like Virtualbox, Vmware Palayer or whatever) and starting the WPS in it?

EXAMPLE GIVEN: some time ago I installed eCS 2.1 in a virtual machine with my Samsung Serie 7 Slate PC; but here running inside Windows 7. The result was that I was able to use the Hardware with eCS 2 that will never be supported there:
- the On screen drivers for finger and touch (but later Wim was so kind to write the drivers for eCS)
- the bluetooth keyboard
-> almost everything

This path would benefit:

- those who want to run eCS in a virtual machine (as eCs will be tailored for this)
- those who have to write device drivers - as these are given with the underliying Linux
... and so on

What I would like to prefer is (but I guess more complicated?): Porting the WPS with its whole look and feel to Linux, so that one can choose it as its desktop envrioment like KDE or GNOME today. But if I understand correctly what I have read about this idea before is that this task may be to hard?

One last thing: If you would like to discuss about the future of eCS with other users from face to face (as this often protects from misunderstanding) take the chance to come to Cologne in almost two weeks!  8)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: djcaetano on November 14, 2013, 12:48:18 pm
Well,
Let´s try something constructive, based on my personal perspective.

I am a developer, with good OS/2 PM and OO programming background, but I have never been able to build a single working WPS Class. The real question here is: why?

I believe the answer has to do with "real life". When I finally had enough background and knowledge to master WPS programming (which is not as easy as a hello world C program), the free time needed to understand the complexities of SOM emitter (and how to build something to work on WPS) was not available anymore.

I *do* have some time I would like to spent on WPS programming - extending or replacing its components. But I just can´t figure out how to build something, how to make it work. The documentation I am able to find references to compilers that are not available anymore or use toolkits so ancient that the sample codes do not work anymore. The sample code on OS/2 Toolkit is confuse and I never was able to figure out how it works, why it does things like it does... and the documentation provided by IBM in that matter is far from simple to understand. It looks like the documentation was created to those who already know the matter and, therefore, don´t need the documentation.

I really believe there are *a lot* of WPS classes that could be replaced/developed by basic to medium-skilled programmers but, as it happens to myself, they just have no time to figure out how to start.

If someone which is already used to build WPS classes (or has the time to fiddle out with old documentation and figure out how to update it) could spare some time building a WIKI page on OS/2 World explaining step-by-step how to create a basic "hello world WPS class" using the most current software and toolkits (including tools download links whenever possible), I believe this could help not only me, but one or two other community programmers.
The wiki page could also present links to resources on old WPS programming already present on several places (I tried about four or five WPS programming tutorials, and never was able to get something working), but the focus should be kept on presenting the WPS Class creation/installation for the uninitiated.

Sorry if I am asking too much, but we are at a draw. Most core-OS/2 developers are already commited to important life-support OS/2 development - and I believe this is the best they can do to help OS/2 platform; if the community can benefit from WPS development, this should be done by those who are not actively programming for OS/2, but are able to do so. This "let´s do some WPS programming tutorial" would be, IMHO, a great step into this direction.

My kindest regards,

Daniel Caetano
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: mickhead on November 14, 2013, 05:55:43 pm
Quote
Well, it is just as easy, if you simply add a screen (can be a modern TV set, which most people have anyway, but could be any number of other things, that haven't been announced yet), a proper keyboard, and a mouse.

That's a point to consider. But still I try envision a corporate workflow where a graphic designer has a tablet and a desk full of peripherals as means to accomplish work. It's hard for me to see what the advantages are against a desktop computer. But who knows, stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 14, 2013, 06:22:17 pm
Quote
In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware.

That is a two way street. If you choose a hardware configuration, by the time you have it settled, and working, the hardware is no longer available, and nobody wants to buy it anyway, because there is newer stuff available. The only way to make that work, is to do it like Apple does. Go to the manufacturers, and get the very first devices off the production line, test them, and make them work, then buy 200,000 of them at the tail end of the production run (probably a special run, just for Apple). I doubt that Mensys (or anybody else), would be able to sell enough product to do that. Then, you have the problem where selected devices are not available in all countries, so you need to go through the procedure for alternate devices, after you figure out what is available. Of course, notebook computers really don't have replaceable parts, in a lot of cases.

In fact, I think that most OS/2 (eCS) users already choose carefully. Unfortunately, the manufacturers keep changing what is available, and sometimes things don't work out as expected.

Quote
I tried to build an bootable USB stick using Linux, that automatically starts Linux and then OS/2 in a virtual machine.

When I first tried Linux Mint, I found out that it will install to a USB stick, so I did so. It works okay, but even USB 3.0 is pretty slow. I did not attempt to use VBox with that setup, but the (same) stick would boot on all of my "modern" machines, and managed to configure all of the devices. I only have one machine with a USB 3.0 adapter, and it worked okay. The rest, with USB 2.0, were painfully slow. After that, I put Linux Mint 15 cinnamon 64 onto my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, which was causing problems for native eCS. All of the devices work, and the speed is quite good. I then put VBox into that, and I have WinXP, eCS 2.1 and eCS 2.2 installed in it. The really surprising thing is that eCS boots about 50% faster in VBox, than it does in the real machine (that by itself causes boot problems). ECS performance is comparable to the real machine, and it seems to work okay, but I haven't used it much. I have not tried to make eCS start automatically at boot, but it should be possible.  The difficult part, so far, has been to figure out Linux, and all of the new rules (not to mention having to enter the mandatory password about every 5th time I try to do something).

This exercise did point out what I said earlier. There is no point in trying to run something like Firefox, or VLC, in VBox, under Linux. Both work better in the native Linux environment (which is running anyway). I have been playing with that configuration, but I am still not convinced that Linux is ready for prime time. Some other distro might be better, but it would take a couple of months, doing nothing else, to check them all out. FWIW, Linux Mint is the first Linux, that I have tried, that sort of works, for me.

Quote
I really believe there are *a lot* of WPS classes that could be replaced/developed by basic to medium-skilled programmers but, as it happens to myself, they just have no time to figure out how to start.

That is one of the problems. Programing the WPS is a little different, and there is a learning curve. I would expect that once you figure out the basics, that it is not that difficult, after all, I seem to recall that Ulrich Möller is (was?) a lawyer, not a programer (perhaps tat is the secret). I think that the ultimate example of WPS programing is XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace is a subset of that). XWorkPlace is, of course, (mostly) just an extension of the WPS classes, not a complete replacement (although you CAN just replace an individual class). Perhaps that would be a place to start.

In fact, now that I think of it, XWorkPlace is really a good beginning to Martin's idea. What is a little different is that he seems to want to replace the root classes with something new, rather than just use the object oriented interface to fix, change, or replace the root classes. XWorkPlace could definitely use a bit of tweaking. The most annoying thing is that it shows a file size of 1 byte, for all files that are bigger than 2 GB. I suspect that that is caused by using the REXX DLLs, because REXX has the same problem.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 14, 2013, 07:01:35 pm
Quote
That's a point to consider. But still I try envision a corporate workflow where a graphic designer has a tablet and a desk full of peripherals as means to accomplish work. It's hard for me to see what the advantages are against a desktop computer. But who knows, stranger things have happened.

There isn't a lot of difference between using a tablet, with a bunch of peripherals, and using a desktop, with the same peripherals. The brain box is just a little smaller, physically. It is done a lot now, using a laptop as the brain box. When the price of a desktop exceeds the price of a tablet (or even a cell phone), and they will do the same thing, why would anyone want to use a desktop? That will reduce demand for the desktop even further, the price will go up, and demand will fall again. It won't take long before desktops price themselves out of the market. Somebody may continue to make one, for those who can afford it, and have some need (that I can't even imagine), but they won't be something that the average user will be willing to buy.

Check out: http://www.linuxmint.com/store_mintbox.php (http://www.linuxmint.com/store_mintbox.php). This appears to be a full blown computer. It runs Linux Mint, by default, but the specs look like it should be able to run eCS (although using the DataPort, or HDMI, for the display may prove to be a problem - I have not been able to get eCS to use the dataport on my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, or my Lenovo ThinkPad T510). Worst case, would be to run eCS, in a VBox, under Linux Mint (which seems to work okay in my Lenovo ThinkPad L530).
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Andi B. on November 15, 2013, 10:43:25 am
Quote
....The brain box is just a little smaller, physically...
This is the reason (smaller) why your next sentence -
Quote
...When the price of a desktop exceeds the price of a tablet (or even a cell phone), and they will do the same thing, why would anyone want to use a desktop?....
will never come true in foreseeable future. At least when comparing nearly same performance. As physically smaller at same computing power is more expensive. Compare your notbook power with a same priced desktop system. This relation did not and will not change future.

And no computing power will never ever be high enough to satisfy user demands. Except for eCS users maybe. But not for any serious programming, art, cad.... work.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Alex Taylor on November 15, 2013, 12:04:17 pm
Tablets and smartphones (and other, possibly yet-to-be-commercialized devices) will almost certainly replace desktop computers within the demographic that uses a computer as an appliance: that is, for word processing, web browsing, email/social media, simple home accounting and (up to a point) games.

However, real computers/workstations will remain essential for other groups. People who need to do programming and development, for example.  Any setting where serious computing power and serious amounts of local storage are necessary.

Computers used to be loosely organized into three different levels: servers for back-room processing, workstations for serious work requiring serious hardware, and end-user devices. Since the mid 1980s the end-user segment has evolved from dumb terminals into powerful machines in their own right, and as a result it's gradually converged with the workstation segment to the point where the two haven't really been distinguishable for about the past 15 years or so.

What we will probably see is tablets and smartphones take over the end-user segment, and desktop computers will retreat back exclusively into the workstation segment.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Ben on November 15, 2013, 01:14:49 pm
Well,
Let´s try something constructive, based on my personal perspective.

I am a developer, with good OS/2 PM and OO programming background, but I have never been able to build a single working WPS Class. The real question here is: why?

*snip!*...

Sorry if I am asking too much, but we are at a draw. Most core-OS/2 developers are already commited to important life-support OS/2 development - and I believe this is the best they can do to help OS/2 platform; if the community can benefit from WPS development, this should be done by those who are not actively programming for OS/2, but are able to do so. This "let´s do some WPS programming tutorial" would be, IMHO, a great step into this direction.

My kindest regards,

Daniel Caetano

Daniel, I think of your post as being a step in the right direction, but the problem is in unifying the others out there like you who have something to contribute and are willing, yet do not possess all that is required to act independently.

Scattered amongst the OS/2 community, are people with skills, (some partial), that they take from their professional lives, or have developed, (albeit incompletely), on their own; the OS/2 community tends to have more intelligent, skilled and able users on the average, as compared with other OS communities.

But, taking these jigsaw pieces and putting them together into something practical, is the obstacle as I see it at present. There are other, more qualified, people but, as was said, they are already maximized and cannot be spared from their present commitments.

Martin is attempting to solve this problem and provide the necessaries to attract those scattered people and at least get the ball rolling! Once the right number of people have pulled together and become familiar with each other and strengthen the knowledge base that Martin has started, I cannot see why more would not come of it.

But, people have short attention spans and are easily distracted from the topic... as this thread demonstrates in a real-life, living-example, as the messages pass through a barrage of segues like Retilin-riddled Music Video watchers, their fodder being filled with flash and shattered sequences, but containing little of substance or depth.

Or, (if you'd rather), like a drunken archer with poor eyesight who can no longer hit the target.

It is not a wonder then, that nothing gets accomplished in this forum... despite the best intentions of a coherent few.

Yet, if those coherent few did not take the effort and were not coherent, there would be no puddle for the video watchers to splash in.

Maybe a few others like yourself who would rather not see the demise of OS/2 and can wade through the segues of this thread, will take this opportunity to present themselves then Martin's efforts and your offer, will not have been for naught.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 15, 2013, 02:05:04 pm
Hi Daniel

I understand your worries about WPS. I had been collecting all information I can find out it on EDM/2. Please also notice that I had found a formal procedure for IBM to give me permission to repost material on this Wiki. 

There is a work left to review and rewrite (which is legal to create derivative work) some article from the EDM/2 wiki. I'm not an OS/2 developer but I'm starting to read about it.

I think we need to document more, provide examples, (or rewrite already created examples). Possible trying to make a tutorial of the "car" WPS example updated as today, with the old sc.exe compiler (required for SOM/WPS) and possible a newer GCC or OpenWatcom.

I'm starting reading "WPS Programming the Easy Way (http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Category:SOM_Articles) by Frank Matthijs" but I'm noticing that since it was on wrote on 1994 it is not using the latest "terms" about WPS programming. But I want to give it a try.

Regards
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Andi B. on November 15, 2013, 04:12:14 pm
Although off topic I want to add to Daniels post -
he pointed out the problem about non-existent and if existent than much to often wrong information material. Moreover we have to struggle with outdated closed source and buggy software tools for building WPS extensions/classes.

Remember the different rc versions we have and every one has different quirks. Don't want to know what problems you run into when stressing the som compiler. ICC3.08/3.65 which we use to build xwp misses some newer c/c++ extensions we are used to use with other tool chains. Nmake sometimes does not honor all environment settings it should and even worse eats up some OS/2 resources (maybe in collaboration with RC and ICC and SOM....) that forces you to reboot every 10-20th compilation process. Even our best programmers editor VisualSlick Edit is more than 10 years outdated and you're running into nice troubles with todays big projects.

And these tools are all closed source so we can not repair them. You have to have some masochism to wast your spare time with such tools.

Given that and the fact that only a handful developers are out there who can give and are willing to give help in the few newsgroups which are still alive you hardly can attract new programmers to our platform. Especially not the young ones.

How to change the situation? I don't know. But fear it needs more than a few individuals even if they are willing to invest a lot of their time.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on November 17, 2013, 05:45:57 pm
Quote
In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware.

That is a two way street. If you choose a hardware configuration, by the time you have it settled, and working, the hardware is no longer available, and nobody wants to buy it anyway, because there is newer stuff available. .

Hi Doug,

as I am preparing for the User Meeting in Cologne I would like to give you one example why I still am of the opinion that concentrating on selected Hardware would have been the best and only possible choice:

The X200t I use from Lenovo:

- first models have been availiable in 2009
- you can still buy them for reasonable prices
- you can get all (Windows) Drivers from the Lenovo Homepage ever since

In 2009 I bought my first one, it took me a lot of time and help to figure out how to get the hardware supported best by eComstation and OS/2.
Finally in 2010 I reached the goal with a lot of help from the community.

Almost EVERYTHING was and is working since:

- ACPI
- AHCI
- Sound
- Grafic with Snap
- LAN
- WLAN (with an easy to patch BIOS and repalcing Intel 4965 WLAN card)
- UMTS / HSPA (!)
- USB
- Card Reader
- the Stylus
- the Touch (but I do not have a touch model)
...

I do not know if there is another "modern Laptop" since than around that is that stable and well supported!

There is a big variety of X200T models, meanwhile I sold mine in early 2012 - but later I discovered that I probably will never find one Laptop with that abilities again.

So this summer I bought one from ebay that was marked as "used" but it has never been used before, the only  thing was that the box has been opened before.

So I bought it, patched the BIOS, replaced the WLAN and restored my Clone on it - and it was up and running from the first second on!

So - this is running already for more than four years now.

It is still the best choice (if you do not need the Tablet one can choose the X200 as well, the same should work with the T400 and T500 series...) for an eComStation Laptop I guess.

Imagine what could have been, if....

But - what shells :-)
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Alex Taylor on November 18, 2013, 10:21:59 am
Agree 100% with Daniel's post.

Last year I sat down to try and learn how to write a simple WPS class.  My objective: create a subclass of WPFolder which added a single new item to its standard context menu.  After puzzling through several confusing tutorials on EDM/2 which were clearly written for older versions of SOM, I eventually created something which I didn't entirely understand but which at least compiled and showed up as a new WPS class.  However, it did nothing.  No new menu item.  I could find no information about how to debug or diagnose it, or where to look for more information.  Disheartened, I just gave up and shelved it.  I no longer have the time or the motivation to dig into it any more.

These are the barriers that face anyone trying to get into WPS development.
Title: Re: ecs 2.2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 18, 2013, 05:30:58 pm
Hi Alex.

I think we can build up a more decent WPS documentation with the things that we have on EDM/2.  Remember that the good thing of EDM/2 is that we can do derivative work of the articles posted there.

It is complete legal to improve/update that articles and try to help others to get involved in WPS. I know it takes time and it hard to people to write articles about OS/2 development this days, but that is what we have today. We don't have to start from scratch.

Regards