OS2 World Community Forum

OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical => Applications => Topic started by: Tuure Linden on August 24, 2019, 06:27:59 pm

Title: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 24, 2019, 06:27:59 pm
I'm starting to use ArcaOS more and more and might even buy more licenses because it would be more convinient to be able to have more then two bootable installations running. However the os still is lacking a alot of software and I have been wondering if Odin would be one solution. Unfortunately the documentation attached kind of sucks. I would need a straight forward guide how to actually install 32 bit Windows software. And above all: a list of working software would be nice. When it comes to Linux there is Wine Application database which has two functions: it tells us users whichs software is compatible and what steps are needed to install it.

When searching the forum a found an older topic about Microsoft Office but not much else. Do you usually use Odin and if you do which software is compatible? And are there any better instructions than Odin's own User's manual? Using wine is quite easy: you rune command "wine windows32program.exe" but I wasn't even able to find out who one does that with odin. "odin", "odininst" and "odinapp" are all unkown commands when typed in the command prompt.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 24, 2019, 07:56:23 pm
To run Win32 apps,
Code: [Select]
pe win32app.exe
or
Code: [Select]
pec win32consoleapp.exe
Unluckily Odin hasn't been particular maintained for a long time and is missing a lot of the newer WIN API so not many newer WIN32 programs will run.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 24, 2019, 08:20:07 pm
Is there a list of which older win32 applications run under Odin?
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: ivan on August 24, 2019, 11:05:23 pm
I don't remember ever seeing any type of manual for Oden but it is very simple to make a program object (see attachment) and if the program doesn't work it will generally tell you what is missing.

BTW, the full 'Parameters' line in the example is:   "d:\odin\program files\irfanview\i_view32.exe"  Note the quote marks - they are necessary.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Doug Clark on August 25, 2019, 01:23:49 am
I believe ArcaOS creates an ODIN folder in the Programs folder on the Desktop. That folder contains the user manual - such as it is.

I have attached the user manual and readme to this post.

Part of the problem with running Win32 programs in ODIN is getting them installed. ODIN only runs Win32 code and many of the early Win32 programs used installers that were 16 bit or mixed 16 bit and 32 bit. There is information about on overcoming those issues for some installers. Otherwise you have to manually install the program

The other issue appears to be around printing. It appears that ODIN doesn't handle printing very well, and some programs that rely on printing (word processors, report writers, etc.) have issues. Although if Microsoft Office runs then that may not be an issue.

Having said that I have created a Win32 program in Delph4 which runs in ODIN (it does no printing).
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: xynixme on August 25, 2019, 10:54:32 am
When searching the forum a found an older topic about Microsoft Office but not much else. Do you usually use Odin
For 8.3 FAT file names, i.e. without a last X, v4.3 (https://winworldpc.com/product/microsoft-office/4x) with an update to support most of a newer Word *.DOC file format (WRD97CNV.EXE (http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/h-viewer.php?dir=/pub/windows&file=wordconv.zip&backto=%2Fh-browse.php%3Fdir%3D%2Fpub%2Fwindows)) can be a 16-bit genuine Microsoft Office-option, without Odin. A default memory setting of e.g. Excel in DATABASE.TXT may be a little bit outdated, if you really have to work with it.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: xynixme on August 25, 2019, 11:41:51 am
Is there a list of which older win32 applications run under Odin?

Probably not. At the moment and in general, excluding hardware-related software, I'd only care about Firefox 87.0.4, Acrobat Reader 42, Office 201x, Flash 33, and perhaps a rare Java 8-based route app. Typically the problem will be reversed: use OS/2 when possible, and Windows when you have to. There's probably no demand for an OS which can somehow execute 80% of your 32-bit software and 0% of your 64-bit software, so compiling a catalogue for a few users has no point. I hardly have any important 16-bit or 32-bit Windows software, so I hardly have Win32-apps I'd wish were available for OS/2.

Most of the time my copy of Windows will be rather busy with updates, and I certainly don't want support for that. Microsoft tends to scan your disks quite frequently, one of their enforced harddisk-torture commercial coffee breaks, which (a.o.) indicates that it's even hard for Microsoft to keep up with new versions or new software, and so on.

For a small community it'll be more important to compile a list of (all) (legacy) software which works fine with ArcaOS, including DOS sound and old Windows apps, to attract new users. As opposed to telling 'em to download and install DOSBox for Windows, for example.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Joop on August 25, 2019, 12:07:27 pm
use OS/2 when possible, and Windows when you have to.
I agree with that, use an OS when its not possible to run the program otherwise.

I hardly have any important 16-bit or 32-bit Windows software, so I hardly have Win32-apps I'd wish were available for OS/2.
Very personal. A lot of fine software written for DOS or Win16 has no update in today's systems. I still have lots of CD's with software for DOS or Windows 3.1. If you go for importance, every office thing in Windows 10 can go to the trashcan. Your shifting space from one place to another. Furthermore, its important to have DOS and Windows 3.1 available because lots of data can't be read or saved anymore with the more "modern" versions of programs. As example, RTF and CSV is not so universal as people tend to think.

For a small community it'll be more important to compile a list of (all) (legacy) software which works fine with ArcaOS, including DOS sound and old Windows apps, to attract new users. As opposed to telling 'em to download and install DOSBox for Windows, for example.
You only need DOSBox for programs who want the whole machine and there can be only one captain on the ship and this is OS/2, eCS or ArcaOS.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 25, 2019, 12:36:36 pm
It's also possible to install Windows 95 under dosbox. At least that's the case with the Linux version of dosbox. Have someone tried it with the OS/2 version?

But personally when it comes to DOS and Windows 3,1 I would rather use the environment that comes with the os rather than dosbox. One of the most important reasons to use OS/2 is the native support for old DOS and Windows 3,1 software.

I have lots of old software I like to run because newer versions aren't always better. The problem is that you aren't able to buy licenses for the older versions anymore. It's quite rare to be able to buy old software from the vendor and eBay and other similar sites are the only alternative. Many of the former software companies don't even exist anymore.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: xynixme on August 25, 2019, 02:40:29 pm
A default memory setting of e.g. Excel in DATABASE.TXT may be a little bit outdated, if you really have to work with it.

That'll be the DPMI_MEMORY_LIMIT. In the days of 4 GiB of installed RAM instead of 4 MiB you can safely change Exces' setting 4 to e.g. 8.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: xynixme on August 25, 2019, 02:42:47 pm
I have lots of old software I like to run because newer versions aren't always better.

The problem is that you aren't able to buy licenses for the older versions anymore.

BTW, in a way DATABASE.TXT is a list of somehow supported 16-bit Win 3.x apps which were popular or "important" in the early 90s.

For some apps cracker-generated codes of the 90s are generally available online. So in theory the office can e.g. buy a modern WinZip code, install ye olde 16-bit WinZip v6.3 , try the bought code, and use a hack when WinZip 6.3 doesn't accept the modern code.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on August 25, 2019, 04:33:38 pm
I don't run Odin intentionally, but I think it's involved with some of our ports. If I really need a Windows program, I run it under Windows. I can run the current Microsoft Office in OS/2 under Firefox. Actually, I run it that way under Windows, too. Looking at Microsoft's current direction, I expect to use their cloud products more in the future.

That makes me wonder if any new Windows programs are being written? Is Windows now in maintenance mode?
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 25, 2019, 05:01:16 pm
Hi

I tried to copy some of the information I was able to find from the Odin database here (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Odin_Compatible_Applications).

Help is always welcome to improve the list of working applications, not matter how old or legacy the Win32 app may be.

Regards
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 25, 2019, 05:04:28 pm
Hi

.... However the os still is lacking a alot of software and I have been wondering if Odin would be one solution...

I was wondering which software specifically would you like to run on ArcaOS, maybe we can give some alternative suggestions, or even try it with Odin to give a hand.

Regards
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 25, 2019, 07:34:33 pm
I have some games that won't run on a modern Windows pc. And then there are some specific multimedia CD-ROM's from the late 90s and early 2000s, for example, one about all the Finnish political leaders. It would be fun to be able to run those. But there is nothing indispensable. I'm able to use the Microsoft Office 365 environment with Firefox among other cloud applications I need at work. It seems that it's quite indifferent which operating system I run these days as long as it connects to Internet and has a browser modern enough.

Like Neil said, the future might be in cloud computing. There are some benefits to that but also disbenefits. For example, I am quite happy to be able to use a dictionary application I bought 20 years ago instead of Google translator. The Finnish "Euro Tranlator 3,1" runs perfectly under WinOS/2 and even supports Russian language.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Doug Bissett on August 25, 2019, 08:39:53 pm
Quote
Looking at Microsoft's current direction, I expect to use their cloud products more in the future.

Personally, I avoid any contact with anything Microsoft, as much as possible. Their "cloud" is used for creating customized advertising, and, eventually, I expect that you will probably need to pay for using anything that is out there, including your own data.

Back in the 90's, IBM was pushing cloud technology (I think they called it something else). At that time, the internet was way too slow for it to be useful, and most people realized that it is NOT a good idea to let big companies know what you are doing with your computer. The only thing that has changed, is that people don't think about personal security anymore, until some company gets caught abusing their data (they all do it, most just don't get caught). Now, the internet is approaching being fast enough to be used, but the security risks are many times worse.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 26, 2019, 11:04:00 am
If you want to use cloud service, what would be the best alternative for Microsoft then? Google Drive shouldn't be it because they are worse than Microsoft when it comes to selling of your data. DropBox? Apple iCloud? At the moment DropBox seems to be only one that has a plugin available for OS/2 netdrive.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: xynixme on August 26, 2019, 12:08:07 pm
Quote
Looking at Microsoft's current direction, I expect to use their cloud products more in the future.

Personally, I avoid any contact with anything Microsoft, as much as possible.

Their "cloud" is used for creating customized advertising, and, eventually, I expect that you will probably need to pay for using anything that is out there, including your own data.

In my book not using Microsoft's disks-scanning OS to use required Microsoft Office "solutions" qualifies as avoiding contact with Microsoft as much as reasonably possible. No more Windows, no more hours of monthly updates, less disk torture, and probably the same bleedin', unavoidable cloud in the future.

If only it was just your own data.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: ivan on August 26, 2019, 12:44:49 pm
The IT industry are gearing up for the subscription model for all of Microsoft's cloud offerings.  There will not be any more 'buy once and use forever' Office offerings - if it is in the cloud you pay per month.

For those living and working in Europe there is also the GDPR which governs where data can be stored - if MS moves it out of Europe then the owner of the data can be held responsible if the data is leaked.

Last thing, who trusts a company that regularly uses its operating system to scan your computer and send data about what you are working on, your banking details and other sensitive information back to home office the be 'evaluated'?
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 27, 2019, 11:14:58 am
And now I've tried it and confirmed that it's possible to install Windows 95 under the OS/2 version of DOSBox. So it's possible to run older 32 bit Windows software quite easily. Windows 98 might also work.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 27, 2019, 11:50:05 am
There are graphics glitches however. The OS/2 version of DOSBox is missing configuration files that Windows version has. So how can one set  [autoexec] and "cputype" settings?
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: xynixme on August 27, 2019, 12:29:02 pm
how can one set  [autoexec] and "cputype" settings?

For [autoexec] perhaps give the DosBoxGui (DOSBox front-end) a try, tab Config (scroll down there) and/or tab Autoexec.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on August 30, 2019, 10:49:12 am
Using the switch -conf configfilelocation and creating a configuration file makes it possible to change the settings. However whole DOSBox seems to crash if Windows 95 is running more than 20 seconds or so. Maybe some tweaks with the conf file is still needed. I'll look into it. I'm using Windows 95 OSR2 version. Maybe the original version would work better, who knows.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Joop on August 30, 2019, 01:08:15 pm
However whole DOSBox seems to crash if Windows 95 is running more than 20 seconds or so.
DOSBoxor Windows 95 wants the whole machine.You can't run these next to each other.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on August 30, 2019, 03:29:34 pm
Using the switch -conf configfilelocation and creating a configuration file makes it possible to change the settings.
You can save adding this parameter by creating a file named dosbox.conf in the directory of the .exe.

For the upcoming next release of the OS/2 version, I've made additions to README.OS2. I append the relevant section here:


_____________________________________________________________________________

   Basic configuration
_____________________________________________________________________________

   For configuration, the file 'dosbox.conf' in the directory of 'dosbox.exe'
   (dosbox directory) can be used. For OS/2, an English version is copied
   from the 'eng' subdirectory to the dosbox directory, but only, if it
   doesn't already exist.

   __________________________________________________________________________
   Language

   To activate one of the optionally installed .lng or .lang files, ensure
   that dosbox.conf contains the following entry:

      [dosbox]
      language=<language_filename>

   <language_filename> should be replaced by e.g. 'deu.lng'. This file should
   either be placed in the directory of 'dosbox.exe' or the 'language' value
   must also include the subpath or full path of that .lng file. This entry
   must match and the file must exist. Otherwise DOSBox creates a trap on its
   start.

   Alternatively, you can also use the 'dosbox.exe' parameters:

     -lang <language_filename>
     -conf <config_filename>

   __________________________________________________________________________
   Keyboard

   In the OS/2 version, the keyboard layout is not selected automatically.
   The 'auto' value for 'keyboardlayout', which is the default, doesn't seem
   to work:

      [dos]
      keyboardlayout=auto

   It can be changed by changing the 'keyboardlayout' value. E.g. for using
   German keyboard layout with the default codepage 858 (similar to 850, but
   contains the Euro sign), add this to 'dosbox.conf':

      [dos]
      keyboardlayout=gr

   Alternatively, it can be changed with the 'keyb' command:

      [autoexec]
      keyb gr

   Some usual keyboard layout values for existing translations:

      us       eng  English
      gr       deu  German
      fr       fra  French
      it       ita  Italian
      no       nor  Norwegian
      ru       rus  Russian
      cz       cze  Czech
      dk       dan  Danish
      es       esp  Spanish
      fi       fin  Finnish
      hu       hun  Hungarian
               kor  Korean (DBCS)
      nl       ned  Dutch
      pl       pol  Polish
      po       prt  Portuguese
      tr       tur  Turkish

   See the table in 'KEYB\layouts.txt', column 'File' for more keyboard
   layouts and section '8. Keyboard Layout' in 'README'.

   Also bundled is mKEYB, a replacement of KEYB, which has the keyboard
   tables compiled in. See the help file in 'mkeyb\README.TXT'.

   __________________________________________________________________________
   Configuration file with NLS comments

   A recent and complete config file with NLS comments can be created as a
   starting point:

      o  Add the language file and the keyboard layout values to
         'dosbox.conf', as described above.

      o  Start 'dosbox.exe' with an existing 'dosbox.conf'.

      o  From the host system, rename 'dosbox.conf' to 'dosbox.conf.bak'.

      o  Export the current configuration, together with NLS comments to the
         dosbox directory:

            config -wcp dosbox.conf

         This new file contains the values of the renamed file 'dosbox.conf'
         from the startup of DOSBox and NLS comments, if the 'language'
         value was configured before.

   You can also use one of the examples in the NLS subdirectories as
   template.

   __________________________________________________________________________
   Mount host directories as local drives

   For mounting host directories, use the mount command:

      [autoexec]
      mount <local_drive_letter> <host_dir>

   Example:

      mount D F:\Apps\DOSBox

   __________________________________________________________________________
   Further information

   See the detailed descriptions in 'README', sections '4. Internal Programs'
   and '3. Command Line Parameters'.

Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 30, 2019, 04:20:29 pm
Microsoft broke Win32's (and Win32) on OS/2 by forcing some of the system DLL's to load in the high memory arena, which didn't exist on OS/2 at the time. That was why Win32s 1.30 didn't work unless a couple of DLL's from 1.25 were used. Whether DosBox on OS/2 allows full access to high memory I have no idea but wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no.
If the answer is yes, likely VIRTUALADDRESSLIMIT needs setting to a large number such as 3072.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Jochen Schäfer on August 31, 2019, 11:52:32 am
Let's say it like this: I didn't do anything to ensure access to high memory. IIRC, all memory allocation goes through LIBC(++) and SDL. So it really depends on them.
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Tuure Linden on September 01, 2019, 01:23:12 pm
Some programs require Win32S ver 1.3. So they really work ok if you copy the certaind DLLs from the 1.25 version? If they do, which DLLs have to be copied?
Title: Re: A comprehensive guide to Odin available?
Post by: Dave Yeo on September 01, 2019, 06:19:04 pm
http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0503H/vnewsf3.htm (http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0503H/vnewsf3.htm) has directions for creating a hybrid. Basically uses
Code: [Select]
shell32.dll
comctl32.dll
oleaut32.dll
ole2thk.dll
ole32.dll
from 1.30, over 1.25 if I'm reading it right.