Messages

1

Virtualization / Re: 64-bit job control in OS/2, via AToF

« on: September 06, 2024, 05:57:11 pm »

My process has always been something like:

1. first, make it work
2. then, make it work right
3. finally, make it work better

So, to get 64-bit stuff "into" OS/2, I had to figure out the AToF methods (virtualization of everything on one machine, which presents 64-bit apps inside of OS/2), and this job control method running under AToF (which presents 64-bit job output into OS/2). This all works, so it fits #1 and was done fast ... either method gets just about any 64-bit app or app output into OS/2!

Doing API work seems to fall under #2 (for me), as there is a ton of programming to do ... it's better than job control, but obviously much harder to get done. At various times, some programmers have done bits & pieces of this, per threads in this forum, but this hasn't seemed to get anywhere?

Not sure, because I don't have OS/2 Warp for Powerpc (old microkernel version of OS/2) up and running to explore things (and this might not come to pass), but this seems to be #3 ... replacing the old microkernel with a modern seL4 microkernel, and building the OS/2 pieces on top of that.

2

General Discussion / Re: Do we still need a 64-bit version of OS/2? And a possible roadmap provided ...

« on: September 04, 2024, 05:28:08 pm »

Relative to Neil's post (but without the programming), it would be possible to do simple job control, and have OS/2 initiating 64-bit actions on other 64-bit machines, and getting results back into the OS/2 session. For more detail, look at:

  os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3716.0.html

If all the effort is kept on an AToF machine, there would be less latency & complexity, as all task activity happens on multiple VM's local to your single AToF machine.

We do have python on OS/2, so you could make python API calls from OS/2 to a backend 64-bit program providing an API (somewhere out there, VM on your AToF machine, another physical machine on your network, the internet). Being python, you could program away to your heart's content. If this is what you meant, it's a great idea, Neil.

3

Virtualization / 64-bit job control in OS/2, via AToF

« on: September 04, 2024, 05:20:38 pm »

In an AToF machine, the HostOS (Windows 10 for example) provides 64-bit functionality, the NTFS filesystem, and other services. ArcaOS (or OS/2), running in a virtualbox VM with guest tools installed, can access that HostOS 64-bit capability via the shared filesystem and "jobs".

For example:

1. You can place all of your OS/2 data files on "z:", which actually resides on the HostOS (NTFS); it can be managed and backed up by the HostOS, with 64-bit tools, automatically.

2. create & "drop" a command string into a jobs folder on the same shared volume, to execute a 64-bit tool on the HostOS like WizTree64.exe, which scans file sizes on z: and produces a graphical map to find excessively large files.

3. HostOS, perhaps with regina rexx (or a service, or powershell), watches job folder, parses and executes the job's command string, screen captures the graphical result, and returns job results to a sub-folder.

4. OS/2, perhaps with REXX, scans subfolder for job results, displays the .png, and you see the output of WizTree64, and know what files are currently taking up the most space in your data location's filesystem.

5. This is not interactive, but you could leave the graphical WizTree program running, and if the screen capture results sent to OS/2 justify it, you can switch to the HostOS desktop, and drill down further ... or, the WizTree program reaches a time limit, and exits, while you remain in OS/2.

OS/2 is executing 64-bit commands or programs on the HostOS, against *your* OS/2 data files, and results flow back to and are visible in your OS/2 desktop ... all via relatively simple job control scripting.

This isn't going out over the network, so no TCP/IP configuration or programming, it's just VM to HostOS integration via VirtualBox guest tools, and simple task scripting, along with numerous 64-bit apps running on the HostOS. As fast as you drop jobs into the job folder under OS/2, the HostOS is processing them, and returning results to OS/2.

There's really no limit to what can be done ... consider:
  - utilizing Wolfram Engine (free math tool running on the HostOS), and you could be executing complex math from OS/2, or sending AI queries from OS/2 out to Wolfram AI services via the Wolfram Engine, and getting AI results back into OS/2.
  - running 16-bit Wordstar or Wordperfect (dos, dos/win) under OS/2, creating documents, and then post-processing them into PDF's or other document conversions (on the HostOS) you might need.

Extend this with nearly any 64-bit application you can conceive of, as long as you can initiate it via external commands, or scripting and/or job language. Rexx or other scripting languages can make the job control effortless.

To give it a try ... AToF your system and see all it can do for you and your OS/2 efforts. More AToF details at:

    os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.0.html

4

General Discussion / Re: Re: Do we still need a 64-bit version of OS/2? And a possible roadmap provided ...

« on: September 01, 2024, 05:58:07 pm »

If one is considering multiboot solutions, then this could be a case where an AToF machine really shines for WordStar and other old non-OS/2 apps ...

The (old) special purpose DOS or WIN apps (WordStar, others) get their own VM running a more native OS that matches the app version, or a modern emulator that extends more features to the old DOS/WIN app. Plus, it's all windowed, alongside OS/2 running in its own VM(s), under one HostOS.

A VM running a more recent DOS 6.22 or DR-DOS 7 should be perfect, or even a Win VM running DosBox-X, to get access to more recent file/networking/printing features.

OS/2 offers a better dos than dos, and a better win than windows, but that was tied to specific OS timeframes of some decades ago. A VM solution should be able to do much better these days. AToF should help ...

5

General Discussion / Do we still need a 64-bit version of OS/2? And a possible roadmap provided ...

« on: August 30, 2024, 07:48:55 pm »

With the AToF solution, I think I no longer need (or perhaps even care about) a 64-bit version of OS/2 ...

If you'll recall, AToF provides for a 64-bit Host OS (linux or windows), a virtualization program (Virtualbox), and OS/2 or ArcaOS is running in a VM. 64-bit apps are provided to OS/2 in a browser (Firefox) via Winflector; or, the entire AToF platform allows windowed access on the same PC to other os's (HostOS or other OS VM's) running 64-bit apps. OS/2 stays at 32-bits, but none of the current crop of hardware/software problems are there under AToF. More AToF details at:

  os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.0.html

It remains fun to think about a 64-bit OS/2, though ...

Of course, getting to a 64-bit OS/2 "the old way" (writing it from the ground up) is near impossible, because of IBM "licensing issues" & such, where the source code for OS/2 itself most likely never gets opened up. Are there any alternatives, short of clean-slate rewrites of each piece of "existing" OS/2? With no money, this clean-slate approach also remains unavailable.

But, is a new way opening up for us? A thought exercise is that a "microkernel" and "workplace OS" (a new form of OS/2, kinda/sorta already done, but later abandoned by IBM) approach would get us there, and some of the pieces are getting tantalizingly closer ...

The microkernel part is complete, and it appears we can bring up a 64-bit microkernel (seL4) on pc hardware (and other platforms). The IBM Workplace OS microkernel (mach) is replaced by an *existing* seL4 microkernel (NOVA, based on seL4). OS/2 was up and running on the Mach microkernel. We can now swap out Mach for NOVA (seL4). To keep up with the interesting work in this area, look at Genode Lab's efforts on:

  - the Genode OS Framework
  - the NOVA microkernel (seL4)
  - Sculpt OS (which we would want to replace with Workplace OS pieces)

The OS/2 part would be the other elements of IBM's Workplace OS, which hopefully doesn't have the same license restrictions, as IBM & partners were going a clean-slate route for development (hopefully, no Microsoft code remains in there). Instead of being layered on Mach, they are layered on NOVA.

I can't pursue this any further (even on paper) until I can get the original Workplace OS up and running in some form of virtualization or emulation ... most likely, it will be with QEMU. I believe I've found all the Workplace OS bits and pieces, but don't think I'll be ready to show something at this year's Warpstock. It looks like I can get there, though. Virtualization or emulation would enable more poking around on how Workplace OS did it's thing, which in turn would enable something more like a roadmap:

1. done (Genode solution): get a microkernel up and running on PC hardware
2. wip: get Workplace OS up and running under emulation ... enable more investigation of OS/2 in this environment
    - I could find that I still don't have all the pieces, but, some progress
    - don't know how to ask IBM for missing pieces; ignoring licensing, for the moment, unless it actually starts working.
3. determine how to rewrite the OS/2 pieces on top of an existing microkernel
  - will IBM open up the Workplace OS parts? That would jumpstart things ...
  - if they won't, can these piece be clean-slated?

Again, I'm fairly happy running OS/2 as a 32-bit OS in an AToF solution, because AToF takes care of all my 64-bit needs, on one PC. I also no longer need 16-bit DOS or 16/32-bit Windows, each under 32-bit OS/2, because they are available under AToF, and run with no problems in other VM's.

AToF does enable virtualization and emulation, so it's actually quite fun to attempt going down the Workplace OS rabbit hole, and to see how far I can actually get. It won't cost me anything but some emulation time & effort ... if successful, that would get item 2 on the above roadmap done.

Your thoughts?

6

Virtualization / Re: Setting 4k resolution for VMWare guest

« on: August 20, 2024, 10:11:25 pm »

On VMware's product (support) site, you can find notes like:

"Only Workstation 6.x and later virtual machines support specifying resolution settings and setting the number of monitors that the guest operating system can use."

I couldn't determine if lack of OS/2 guest tools is what blocks the .vmx file settings from taking place, or if your VM "machine type" (what VMware officially supports for an OS/2 VM) is the problem. If you can't change the machine type, perhaps you can invoke VMware support, through their forums or whatever route is open to you.

For a virtualization platform to not have guest tools support for an OS spoke volumes to me as to what the overall level of support for that OS was going to be like. Diminishing over time at best, and it's been awhile since VMware had support for OS/2.

While I use VMware Workstation and Virtualbox at the same time on my computer (both are type 2's hypervisors, and each running a VM), perhaps there is some condition I've not found yet, where they both can't run without interfering with each other ... interesting.

Hope this helps ...

7

Virtualization / Re: Setting 4k resolution for VMWare guest

« on: August 20, 2024, 02:03:03 am »

I don't believe you'll get there with VMware Workstation as the virtualization platform, as VMware does not provide "guest tools" for OS/2 or ArcaOS. For what can be done within VMware, look at ArcaOS's page:

arcanoae.com/wiki/arcaos/installation-planning/virtual-machine-configuration/

If you switch to VirtualBox (free from Oracle), they do provide a reasonable set of guest tools, and these should work for ArcaOS (they did in my testing). Furthermore, these additional web pages discuss "the blonde guy's" efforts for video improvements under ArcaOS, and additional ArcaOS tweaks for VirtualBox. Perhaps these will get you closer:

blondeguy.com/computer/sodium.html  (which then refers to another ArcaOS page)
arcanoae.com/wiki/arcaos/post-install-tips-hints/other-oracle-vm-virtualbox-tweaks/

ArcaOS will provide the guest tools when you install ArcaOS under VirtualBox ... if you're instead running Warp or thereabouts under VirtualBox, you'll need to hunt down the older VirtualBox guest tools for OS/2, provided by NetLabs.org, at:

trac.netlabs.org/vbox

Additionally, there are further tweaks out there to use Virtualbox tools to manage GPU settings in a vm (if Windows is the Host OS) ... something like:

vboxmanage modifyvm "YourVMName" --vram 256

and pointing Virtualbox.exe at a dedicated Nvidia display adapter. I have only lightly tested some of this, and I did manage to get a VM with improved graphics capability, but I didn't test a bunch of cases. Hopefully, the internet will provide those tweak explanations for you. Again, that's with Virtualbox, which does have a level of guest tools support for OS/2 and ArcaOS.

Hope this helps ...

8

Virtualization / Time Travel - virtualization (AToF) makes it possible

« on: July 10, 2024, 07:03:21 pm »

Time travel (sort of) is indeed possible ... from the flames of the Hobbes pyre, arise OS/2 Warp (3.0 thru 4.52), as in, the years those OS's were prevalent, and everything just worked (mostly). The OS, and the zillions of applications and utilities of the time!

With the shuttering of Hobbes 1.0, something amazingly beneficial came out of it ... a massive, 20gb collection of every single file and associated data for that file. If you were quick, and had the resources & time available, you downloaded that thing. It now sits on inexpensive mass storage (in my case, my Synology NAS). I didn't have to spend hours getting into Hobbes, going through it's i/f weirdness in finding/downloading things, and finding the gems within. I just d/l'd the whole mess, and now it's offline and much more accessible for my form of rummaging.

Note that many of these files, programs, whatever, could have a hard time running on today's (ArcaOS) OS/2 ... Martin and others do a heck of a job dragging these out, testing, updating notes and/or programs, and sticking it back into Hobbes 2.0

But, I enjoy time travel (that virtualization affords me), and specifically, I want to visit the years of OS/2 Warp 4.52. I may even want to go back as far as OS/2 3.0. While I'm at it, why limit myself to OS/2, as I can also go back as far as DOS, or even CP/M. Or sideways to other OS's entirely. It's the AToF system that allows this to happen, and easily at that. If you haven't AToF'd a system these days (and why haven't you, and what can I do to make it easier for you?), the details are in the virtualization subsection of the OS2World forum ... any of the articles with AToF in the subject, and numbered so you know where to start. With an AToF system, there are no issues with OS's, browsers, applications, etc. ... it all just works, and you can run the OS's you want.

This also means we can run the old stuff, and do new things with it. Including OS/2 Warp 4.52, or any of the earlier versions. In very short order, you can bring these OS's up alongside your production OS's, on an AToF system. And that is what enables the time travel magic.

In my OS/2 Warp 4.52 vm (one of many), and with a bit of rummaging thru the Hobbes archive locally (all 20GB's of it), I can run stuff as it was developed over 25 years ago or more. It is easy as pie to move things around, test them, figure out what was going on, and experience it the way it was back then! That is indeed "Time Travel"!

While many of these utilities might run on a modern ArcaOS system (or in my case, an ArcaOS vm), it has offered me endless hours of exploration (and enjoyment) to build up a 4.52 vm or three, and run many of the Hobbes apps in that vm. Exploring one app or utility usually leads to many others, and with the massive Hobbes archive at my fingertips, it's all right there, instantly available.

Don't limit yourself to just the exploration of the typical utilities and programs of that time period. You can use the same techniques to build up a *dev environment*, going back in time to a point where all of the IBM dev tools work, and work well together, just as they did back then (if you have access to the dev tools of those day, and with archive.org, who doesn't have access to them?). In no way is this a slight to all who have and continue to develop the tools to perform dev magic within ArcaOS today ... thank you for that incredible service. But, I can bring up a dev environment vm from back then, of any form (C, CPP, Basic, Rexx), using the tools of that time period, and amazingly, they all work like they did back then! Beyond Hobbes, this opens up the IBM Developer Connection CD's, and more! Massive amounts of information, and immediately actionable!

I hope this article helps others to enjoy the same kind of time traveling I've been doing ... no drugs needed to get warped, or go on a journey (of the mind); just an AToF system, archive.org, the massive Hobbes download, and possibly a hideout from the rest of the family where you can get some screen time.

You'll be time traveling in ... well ... no time!

I won't be attending this year's Warpstock ... I'm trying to automate wildfire suppression (yes, I'm a volunteer firefighter), and I have an entry (a method to autonomously detect and suppress a wildfire in early stages) in the XPRIZE Wildfire Challenge. I've been tied up for the past two years, and easily a few more into the future. While I got a Warpstock 2023 presentation out, I can't squeeze one in for 2024 ...

But, anyone else is welcome to take this article, and build a presentation out of it for the upcoming Warpstock! The virtualization message, and the form of time travel that it enables, needs to get out there! Many of the virtualization articles have 1000's of views ... if that isn't "interest", I don't know what is!

Post what comments you think will help in building this out into a Warpstock presentation!

9

Virtualization / Re: ArcaOS in VirtualBox and mouse.

« on: April 05, 2024, 01:21:44 pm »

Not sure what version of vbox you are using, and on what Host OS?

Only similar problem I can find, with a bit of googling, is that within vbox, this kind of problem could be caused by your ArcaOS vm settings, display, monitor count being set to anything other than 1.

You can also test a brand new install of ArcaOS (from your registered ISO) into a new vm, and don't fiddle with the vm settings too much, until you know if that new test vm has the mouse issue or not. ArcaOS comes with a set of vbox drivers built-in, so you should be able to test the issue right away.

Hope this helps ...

10

Storage / Re: Boot from iscsi or fiber channel

« on: February 13, 2024, 03:46:19 pm »

I would offer that you can build up a Windows or Linux OS that boots diskless in your corporate environment. All infrastructure is 64-bit (OS, hba software, etc.), and the OS is up and running.

On that minimal HostOS that now has all the infrastructure in place, run only Virtualbox and ArcaOS within a VM, and run that VM full-screen. Within the VM, ArcaOS has access to all resources of the HostOS, including 64-bit apps. If the HostOS can provide it, most likely ArcaOS can access it virtually. At this point, you've captured the ArcaOS setup via the HostOS, wrt backups & such.

You'll need to license ArcaOS, and most likely Virtualbox (in a corporate environment), in addition to whatever HostOS requirements might be needed for ISCSI, FC, etc.

Look in the Virtualization category of OS2World for all the AToF documents which describe the approach to virtualizing ArcaOS, and which gets you around all this device driver grief.

Hope this helps!

11

Hardware / Re: The last nail in OS/2's coffin

« on: January 25, 2024, 01:41:54 pm »

Poked around on other forums, mentioning the X86-S spec, and folks there pointed out some VirtualBox tidbits:

  - old versions of VirtualBox emulated enough of a CPU such that they could run OS/2 when other virtualization products couldn't.
  - newer versions of VirtualBox no longer needed that emulation layer, as they could pass things thru to the CPU directly. But, to this day, VirtualBox still has pieces of QEMU in it.

Most likely, both VirtualBox and QEMU will be able to run OS/2 long after a particular x64-only CPU can't. I'd guess that Intel needs a new line of x64-only CPU's to carry them further into the server ecosystem. But I'd also guess that they'll continue CPU's that support legacy business apps for a long time (lots of money there).

If DOS, an OS that is older than OS/2, can be emulated and survive & thrive to this day, there shouldn't be any reason why OS/2 (all variants) can't be emulated as well, and prosper long into an x64 world. VirtualBox (virtualization) and QEMU (emulation) will get us there.

CPU's might take away a needed "layer of compatibility" on the one hand, but they almost always give back with "speed" on the other hand. Emulation developers do the rest ...

12

General Discussion / Re: Reg article on CUA

« on: January 25, 2024, 01:26:40 pm »

It *is* interesting, in more ways than the CUA interface aspect. It points at another "Register" article (16-bit DOS), which says:

"ms removed the 16-bit compatibility layer from x64 Windows OS's of the time, and you could no longer run 16-bit apps. Developers responded with DOSEMU", and many other flavors of DOS emulators. To this day, you can run such emulators to get at the many versions of DOS OS and applications, "on x64 Windows & Linux".

That's an OS that is older than OS/2, and if it can be emulated and survive & thrive to this day, there shouldn't be any reason why OS/2 (all variants) can't be emulated as well, and prosper long into an x64 world.

13

Hardware / Re: The last nail in OS/2's coffin

« on: January 22, 2024, 06:34:56 pm »

There are two ways to run OS/2, better than it runs on hardware (which does have its limitations) ... the first is virtualization (Virtualbox), and the second is emulation (QEMU).

WRT virtualization (and OS/2), it allows things to be used long after most folks can't figure out how to keep using them on existing hardware ... their hardware dies, and they just stop using the old stuff. By virtualizing, the old stuff pretty much runs forever ... implement virtualization, perhaps by the AToF methods in the virtualization sub-forum, and OS/2 will run many, many years past the point where folks have stopped using OS/2 on "old" hardware.

WRT QEMU, it emulates the processor(s) that OS/2 ran on, and given a reasonable platform, you probably couldn't tell that OS/2 was being emulated.

I'd believe that both of these methods, and others that I haven't explored yet, will keep OS/2 running long past the point of current "old" hardware methods.

Given the popularity of all things "vintage", I'd also believe that OS/2 will be running such that the baton will be handed off to many more "generations" of OS/2 users.

I'm not sure we've seen all that virtualization & emulation has to give us ...

14

Applications / Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions

« on: January 18, 2024, 12:27:33 am »

If you look on the ArcaNoae website, they seem to be adamant about supporting ArcaOS on a physical machine *and* in a VM (at least in terms of voicing that support on the webpages). You have a choice, and I hope they continue to support both approaches *equally* into the future:

  - every advancement in device drivers, app dev, plugs a current hole
  - continued Guest Additions dev keeps ArcaOS entirely problem-free

This is an important point, because you can run ArcaOS on a physical box as the primary OS, which does open yourself up to the problems with that approach ... lack of device drivers, applications that aren't quite modern enough, etc. UEFI allows you to multi-boot your way out of this. Or, ...

Run ArcaOS in a VM, with the HostOS providing *everything* that ArcaOS can't, or may not get to until future releases. There are no major device driver problems, no lack of access to modern apps, and so on.

If you go the AToF path of virtualization (shameless plug, see virtualization sub-forum), then you also get x64 app access within ArcaOS, and more.  Everything available at once, no multi-booting.

A (more) modern version of OS/2, and more choices for each on how to run it.

That's progress ... and why OS/2 (ArcaOS 5.1) is still relevant today!

15

Article Discussions / Re: Too many cases of "OS/2 is dead, dying, etc"

« on: January 17, 2024, 09:35:45 pm »

Sent a "tip" (ArcaOS article) in to Hackaday.com a day or so ago, via the site's submittal form:

  hackaday.com/submit-a-tip/

No idea if it'll get published or not, but others are welcome to try as well. If anything shows up at their main page, we'll know that this site "accepts" ArcaOS (OS/2) articles, vs dropping the submittals for whatever reason, as in, they may not want to publish anything but "OS/2 is dead" types of articles.