OS2 World Community Forum

OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical => Hardware => Topic started by: ivan on July 30, 2019, 10:49:55 am

Title: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on July 30, 2019, 10:49:55 am
Hi Doug,

The AMD Ryzen processors have a USB 3 built in then there is the northbridge that has USB 2 and USB 3 and USB 3.1, numbers depending on the northbridge version.  The AM4 motherboards may also have an ASMedia USB 3 and USB 3.1 as well.  There are a couple oother chip manufacturers that supply USB 3 chipsets for add in cards eg. Renesas - I have the source code for their Linux drivers.

If you would like me to test the USB 3 driver just e-mail it and I can easily try it on 5 different AM4 motherboards.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on July 30, 2019, 05:29:02 pm
Quote
The AMD Ryzen processors have a USB 3 built in then there is the northbridge that has USB 2 and USB 3 and USB 3.1, numbers depending on the northbridge version.  The AM4 motherboards may also have an ASMedia USB 3 and USB 3.1 as well.  There are a couple oother chip manufacturers that supply USB 3 chipsets for add in cards eg. Renesas - I have the source code for their Linux drivers.

So, you won't know what you have, until you have the machine. Linux drivers are probably totally irrelevant.

Quote
If you would like me to test the USB 3 driver just e-mail it and I can easily try it on 5 different AM4 motherboards.

Sorry, I can't make that call. Be assured, that AN does have a Ryzen processor for testing. That is how they got the boot loader, and Memdisk, to work. They can test USB 3 with that machine. If it is the same as your machine (no guarantees), they should be able to make it work. Rather than showing an advertising picture, it would be more helpful if you would show the results of running C:\sys\install\DETECT\pci.exe.

Even better would be that you should learn not to buy the "latest and greatest" hardware, until it is supported. Something off of the clearance shelf is usually better supported, and cheaper (of course, Ryzen is now on the clearance shelf, and AN probably have more catching up to do).
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on July 30, 2019, 06:23:28 pm

Quote
If you would like me to test the USB 3 driver just e-mail it and I can easily try it on 5 different AM4 motherboards.

Sorry, I can't make that call. Be assured, that AN does have a Ryzen processor for testing. That is how they got the boot loader, and Memdisk, to work. They can test USB 3 with that machine. If it is the same as your machine (no guarantees), they should be able to make it work. Rather than showing an advertising picture, it would be more helpful if you would show the results of running C:\sys\install\DETECT\pci.exe.

That kind of answer - where the writer uses his mothertongue! - is one of those I like most: like a kind of "God" telling people what they SHOULD do.

Even better would be that you should learn not to buy the "latest and greatest" hardware, until it is supported. Something off of the clearance shelf is usually better supported, and cheaper (of course, Ryzen is now on the clearance shelf, and AN probably have more catching up to do).

To answer this kind of "helpfull advices" the same way it should be like this: (say it with your own words):

"Even better would be you should learn not to answer in unspecified manner. It is usually better to tell wich kind of "Ryzen processor" is meant here, the first, the second or the third generation that is used by ArcaNoae? Otherwise people might get confused what Hardware you are talking about and you might rise exepectations, that never will be fullfilled."

It is not only boring to read condescending teachings like this.

And if I understand your answers regarding testing the "Existing USB 3 driver": it only works with an Adapter on a T43 (almost 12 Year old hardware that is better supported by Warp 4.52) that is even not desinged to have USB 3.0 at all. ALL other testing failed.

Without using or trying to use ArcaOS on modern hardware a lot of helpfull and benefiting information for the system at all would have never seen the light of day.

So please, there are people who try to test it on modern hardware and not want to stay with old hardware. And there is nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on July 30, 2019, 08:58:00 pm
Quote
And if I understand your answers regarding testing the "Existing USB 3 driver": it only works with an Adapter on a T43 (almost 12 Year old hardware that is better supported by Warp 4.52) that is even not desinged to have USB 3.0 at all. ALL other testing failed.

It did not "fail", it has a problem that hasn't been resolved yet. This is still pre-Alpha grade software, after all.

BTW, ArcaOS IS Warp 4.52, with essential updates to keep it working on modern hardware (well, almost modern).

I was trying to point out that the exact same hardware has different results on two different machines. The fact that one seems to work, and the other not, points out the difficulty in getting these things to work on all machines, never mind trying to get different adapters to work on all machines. It is not an easy task, and it takes a LOT of time. The fact that it works, at all, is a huge step forward, and it is better than it was a couple of months ago. Progress is being made, which I find encouraging. Now, if the programmers can get people off their backs for a while, they may be able to get the job finished.

Quote
That kind of answer - where the writer uses his mothertongue! - is one of those I like most: like a kind of "God" telling people what they SHOULD do.

Stop reading here, if you aren't interested in learning something.

Perhaps somebody will learn to use their heads, and not ask silly questions, with insufficient data to support what they are asking. Sorry, but I am losing interest in trying to figure out what somebody is talking about (and I don't have the time to bother), when they don't supply supporting information. That is one of the main reasons why the Arca Noae principals don't bother to read these posts (another is that they are too busy trying to get the whole thing working better). The few of us who do read these posts, and respond, are not really part of the inside group, all we do is test things for them. If you are not interested in our (outsider) observations, say so, and we will shut up (well, I will anyway). Those guys are working their collective asses off, trying to make a product that actually works. Some things are easier than others, and they get done quicker. USB 3 is one of the more difficult tasks, and it is taking far longer than anybody thought. It is also taking time away from getting WiFi support (and a few other things) done. USB 3 trumps WiFi, because there is a reasonable alternative to WiFi, but USB 3 is causing much concern, as Ivan demonstrates, and there really isn't a viable alternative in a lot of cases.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Eugene Tucker on July 30, 2019, 09:59:21 pm
Thank you for the update Doug. Maany should realize that we are in the too few trying to do too much boat with this issue.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on July 30, 2019, 10:45:20 pm
It did not "fail", it has a problem that hasn't been resolved yet. This is still pre-Alpha grade software, after all.

I am wondering, in May 2016 David A. said USB 3 is at about 90% done, in December 2018 Lewis R. said he HOPE to have a Beta Testing in February 2019 and since a while you are writing it "Exists" -> and now we are at "Pre Alpha Stage". Is this some kind of backward engineering? What's the opinion of the ArcaNoae people about this?


BTW, ArcaOS IS Warp 4.52, with essential updates to keep it working on modern hardware (well, almost modern).

Really? You must be kidding! After using OS/2 for almost 25 Years I still thought ArcaOS is a total new Development that started from scratch (or even before)! Was'nt eComstation a development starting from scratch as well? Where have I been the last 20 years...?


Perhaps somebody will learn to use their heads, and not ask silly questions, with insufficient data to support what they are asking.

We have a good saying for this in German:

Es gibt keine dummen Fragen, nur dumme Antworten.

For your convinience I will translate it: There are no silly questions, there are only silly answers.


That is one of the main reasons why the Arca Noae principals don't bother to read these posts (another is that they are too busy trying to get the whole thing working better). The few of us who do read these posts, and respond, are not really part of the inside group, all we do is test things for them. If you are not interested in our (outsider) observations, say so, and we will shut up (well, I will anyway).

Interesting, do you or do you not speak in behalf of ArcaNoae? Is that what ArcaNoae told you for not taking part in Forums?
That might be one of the problems: there is the "inside Group", the "outside but tester Group" and then there is that's what's left: the "real outside Group". I wonder that the community at all is big enough to fill all these positions! And please: Do not ask a questions once your are not part of one of the two first groups.


Those guys are working their collective asses off, trying to make a product that actually works. Some things are easier than others, and they get done quicker.

And here again: the Refrain repeated for years now, a common knowledge. Sometimes if it goes this way and having this progress over years with an essential problem it might be a good idea to consider to try another way, perhaps collaborate with other developers. Yes, there are no other USB developers around. By the way: I am wondering about the work a guy named Lars Erdmann is doing with USB. Or Wim Brul - I remeber that thanks to his work I got working USB Pen and Touch support with OS/2, not on hardware from 1996, it was a more modern one....

But in the end - who cares? Die Karawane zieht weiter.... :)


Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on July 30, 2019, 11:27:32 pm
Pci information as requested.  The pci-ryzen-aos.txt is from using the ArcaOS 5.0.4 DVD and the pci-ryzen.txt is from using pci.exe in my tools directory with a fairly new  pcidevs.txt
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Martin Iturbide on July 31, 2019, 12:20:05 am
Hi Guys

I also have some frustration on wanting to test and run ArcaOS on newer hardware. USB3 and wifi support are critical and there are still no solution out there. But remember to be civil about it, instead of unloading the frustration on people I would prefer a more constructive criticism to Arca Noae.

My opinions are based on:
- ArcaOS is only two years old.
- Skill on OS/2 driver development are very limited.
- Releasing an OS is arduous/tedious job.
- I was invited to the ArcaNoae test mailing list and I have a better insight of how tedious is to launch a new release.
- Before releasing ArcaOS, Lewis told me (I'm not quoting exactly) that his primary goal at that moment was to produce an OS/2 that runs on newer hardware and that there will be an option for people to obtain/buy OS/2.

The criticism to Arca Noae:
- USB 3 is taking too long and it is critical.
- Wifi drivers are also taking a long time and is a desirable thing for the community.
- AN should invest to have more people with device driver development skills and kernel knowledge to accomplish the "primary goal".

But even if is talking longer than expected, AN is close to accomplish that primary goal that once Lewis told me. Once USB3, ArcaOS 5.1 in different languages, UEFI and maybe Wifi get released, AN should update theirs goal and they should start thinking on the future of the platform beyond of "just run on newer machines". A strategy for the future should not be only to react to create drivers when new PC hardware appear, but to think about how the platform software architecture can be improved, try to find a niche where to grow the install base and even thinking of an ecosystem for the OS.

I still think that AN had made a great job in just two years, with the exception that new driver development seems to be very limited and slow if they want to accomplish their "primary goal" to support OS/2 on newer hardware. In my opinion AN should invest to have more full time driver developers for the platform, but that is up to his internal financial numbers.

For the last year, as part of the community, my goal had been to try to consolidate the OS/2 knowledge and make it available for the public. I had been able, with the help of the community, to scan, organize, request permission and release material that are now available on github, os2world wiki and EDM/2. Any more driver development material is more than welcome on EDM/2.

If drivers is the issue I would suggest to try to get organized, find the rest of OS/2 driver developers and ask them how much they will charge for a XYZ driver on OS/2, and try to raise money for that. I will support any bounty or ideas to create new drivers to can be open source (even better, copyleft) so it can be updated in the future and works as learning material for other people learning about OS/2 driver development.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on July 31, 2019, 01:24:40 am
All good points Martin but my main frustration is the total lack of communication about what is going on.  It is only now that we learn that Arca Noae actually has an AMD Ryzen AM4 based test unit but the question remains is that a first or second generation Ryzen and does it have an integrated graphics processor.

Over here we have a couple of national suppliers doing discounts on Ryzen based machines and I have a lot of my old clients asking if it is safe to update to them.  I have to tell them No at the moment because of lack of information about USB 3 drivers - extremely frustrating.

Another thing I would like to offer some of my time and equipment for testing but there is no information on how to do that - it is almost as if Arca Noae does not want anyone outside the inner circle to know what is going on or even help.  Maybe that is the way they do things in the US but it does not make much sense to those of us outside the US.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Dave Yeo on July 31, 2019, 04:18:50 am
Another thing I would like to offer some of my time and equipment for testing but there is no information on how to do that - it is almost as if Arca Noae does not want anyone outside the inner circle to know what is going on or even help.  Maybe that is the way they do things in the US but it does not make much sense to those of us outside the US.

Have you tried writing Louis?
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on July 31, 2019, 05:45:25 am
Just to make it clear: I know the Situation at ArcaNoae and accepted the way they are doing things even though I would choose other ways. I am happy that there is progress at all and appreciate what they have done. Once I wrote them a Mail I allways got a reply. If so and if it is relevant to a discussion I isually share it there, as well as my experiences with it.

I offered my time for testing as well, with the Hardware I do have, quite new one usually, like Ivan. It did not happen and I accepted it, even if I do not understand it, like Ivan, but ArcaNoae has to decide what they want to do.

But what I really do not like is when someone, for years now, tries to cut down each and every discussion or criticism on this with allways the same, and obvious useless, arguments. ArcaOS is not a holy cow (Heilige Kuh), it is a living OS. And one part if this lige is Discussion, Testing, sharing knowledge. Otherwise it will become closed source and will die, not for the mostly industrial customers but for the "community".

Drawing a picture that ArcaNoae is a company somewhere behind a cloud and everything they are doing is the right decision, even if others, usually the "normal user" not only will not or never understand why but also has no ability to do so - is the wrong way.

I think ArcaNoae itself does not think this way. I would suggest, i.e., to spread at least monthly some news like bww and netlabswith the "biweekly newsletter" do. That would eat a maximum of one our work per month but would lead to a better and up to date information what is really going on. That is again just a suggestion, not "a must", as I do have no intention to pursuade someone.

By the way I plan to release a video about installing ArcaOS on the ArcaOs Video channel I created on Youtube. It will take sone more weeks, four I guess, and will be shown to ArcaNoae before I release it. Hints, suggestions and critic are welcome!
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on July 31, 2019, 06:35:59 am
Quote
I think ArcaNoae itself does not think this way. I would suggest, i.e., to spread at least monthly some news like bww and netlabswith the "biweekly newsletter" do. That would eat a maximum of one our work per month but would lead to a better and up to date information what is really going on. That is again just a suggestion, not "a must", as I do have no intention to pursuade someone.

Lewis did start to do a regular news release, but, as I understand it, it became a choice of spending an hour trying to explain what was going on (which can change from day to day), or getting some sleep. Now that he isn't spending 16 hours a day trying to get 5.0.4 out the door, (in addition to doing his real job, and looking after his home and family), we may see another update.

Quote
By the way I plan to release a video about installing ArcaOS on the ArcaOs Video channel I created on Youtube.

Looking forward to seeing that. The only "problem" that I can see, is that there are a lot of different scenarios, and it may be difficult to pick a path that will show the user the steps that they would want to use. Simply showing how to get a computer to boot from a USB stick could take an hour, and each user would find only a few minutes of it to be interesting.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Martin Iturbide on July 31, 2019, 11:52:30 pm
Hi.

I split the topic. It seems we left the "USBDRV 10.225 - full support for USB audio" discussion.

I offered my time for testing as well, with the Hardware I do have, quite new one usually, like Ivan. It did not happen and I accepted it, even if I do not understand it, like Ivan, but ArcaNoae has to decide what they want to do.
I'm guessing that you both (Sigurd and Ivan), being ArcaOS customers, requested Lewis to be part of the testing group (mailing list) and got rejected? If that will be my call I would accept you since you have background testing hardware with OS/2, but I can't help with that.

But what I really do not like is when someone, for years now, tries to cut down each and every discussion or criticism on this with allways the same....
I agree with you, and I dislike that. I remember the Mensys days when nothing was happening, but we have the "Mensys fan" blocking every criticism about eComStation and telling us that something is going to come.  But I think is good to cut the discussion when it turn into "one person against the other", instead of constructive criticism about what is going on. 

Drawing a picture that ArcaNoae is a company somewhere behind a cloud and everything they are doing is the right decision, even if others, usually the "normal user" not only will not or never understand why but also has no ability to do so - is the wrong way.
Again, I remember someone saying "Mensys is the only one betting on OS/2, and you should not open your mouth", which was unpleasant. We don't have Arca Noae trolls here (not yet), just people with more insight about what is going on the test mailing list. I talked to Lewis some time ago about some ideas, but his priority was to release first an "OS/2 version capable of running in modern hardware", but he didn't dismiss any of my ideas at the moment. So I think it is more about resources ($$$$) and how to focus the people they have.

My criticism remains the same: If running on modern hardware is the priority, then drivers are required, and it seems they have a shortage of people that can provide OS/2 drivers in timely a way. 

On the other hand, we don't need Arca Noae to do our own hardware tests. Just like we have been doing it, let's keep testing hardware and post our findings on the forums, we discuss it with different people to find options, and after a while if no solution is found the person with the hardware issue opens a ticket to Arca Noae.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on August 01, 2019, 12:38:47 am
Quote
My criticism remains the same: If running on modern hardware is the priority, then drivers are required, and it seems they have a shortage of people that can provide OS/2 drivers in timely a way.

On the other hand, we don't need Arca Noae to do our own hardware tests. Just like we have been doing it, let's keep testing hardware and post our findings on the forums, we discuss it with different people to find options, and after a while if no solution is found the person with the hardware issue opens a ticket to Arca Noae.

Martin, while I mostly agree with you there are many of us that have the equipment to do the testing but can't do so because there is nothing to test.

When I ran a business we did initial testing in house and as soon as we had it working reasonably well we sent it out to those that could test it on actual working equipment which meant all of our clients.  The feedback we got was then applied to the next version and again was sent out.  Eventually we ended up with a product that our sales people could take and sell to new clients.

From what I have seen that is not the way products are developed in the US where they seem to be obsessed with IP and 'you must not let other know what you are doing'.

That being said, I suspect if a poll was taken of the equipment used by the people on this site there would be a very broad range of different equipment  that would go a long way to making a useful beta test group.  Yes it would require a little organisation by the principles to enable them to make use of the results, and yes a result of 'it doesn't work on xyz' is a useful result when it makes the developer look at the difference between xyz and what does work, we learned a lot from such results.
 
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on August 01, 2019, 02:31:02 am
All good points Martin but my main frustration is the total lack of communication about what is going on.
Yes, I thought the same. My situation has changed, because I'm now a member of the Test Group. There's rather too much info on the list and downloads. It's the opposite of the situation before. (I'm one of the translators for the German language and was unintenionally not added before.) I can say that the wish to participate increases enormously with access to the development details.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 01, 2019, 03:42:35 am
Hi Ivan.

Maybe the Ryzen subject need to be discussed broadly.

Over here we have a couple of national suppliers doing discounts on Ryzen based machines and I have a lot of my old clients asking if it is safe to update to them.  I have to tell them No at the moment because of lack of information about USB 3 drivers - extremely frustrating.

It sound like if you are an ArcaOS reseller and/or you have OS/2 customer you provide service to. What I would do in your case is let Lewis known the potential customers they are missing (if they haven't bought ArcaOS) because of the lack of USB 3.0. And if there are already ArcaOS customers, ask them to make some healthy pressure to AN for the drivers.

What about trying to get an Ryzen based machine (desktop), find a PCI USB 2.0 card that you know it works on OS/2 and test it out? It is  an ugly workaround but at least you will test if the rest of the mainboard and processor works as expected (or crash very hard). From my side I haven't hear(read) anything about AMD Ryzen on the testing mailing list. Don't think that the test group is super cool where people test exquisite secret working drivers, it is tedious to me because of all the necessary bug fixing is discussed there, but it is something that is necessary and shows that there is movement. My opinion is that I don't see USB 3 around the corner, there is work in progress, and you (maybe with your customers) should ask AN for an estimated time release.

From what I have seen that is not the way products are developed in the US where they seem to be obsessed with IP and 'you must not let other know what you are doing'.
Is this bias against the US? (It is the first time I use the "bias" word in a forum). Maybe AN is taking too much time to release drivers (that is part of my criticism), or very busy bug fixing the next release and not communicating their progress in my opinion, but I don't see them overly obsessed with IP or secrecy for the moment.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on August 01, 2019, 01:14:32 pm
Hi Martin,

I agree that the latest AMD processors need to be discussed in detail (one of the national suppliers that was a staunch Intel shop is now sending out Ryzen information and even have a reasonable supply in their local shop).

Sorry, we were never software resellers although we did give help and advice where necessary.  I retired 5 years ago, being 75 years old I thought it was time to call it a day.  Our main business was, and still is, about hardware interfaces between control computers and industrial machine tools many of which started life with OS/2 v2 as single units.  Over the years we helped them upgrade to Warp 4 and integrate logging into the office as well as doing a few other things to keep them up to date.

I have 5 Ryzen based machines using Asus, MSI and Gigabyte motherboards working using various PS/2 to USB adapters to allow the use of USB keyboards and trackballs which is fine when all is well but a real PITA when something forces a hard reset.  Regarding the use of a USB 2 addin card, the only ones I have found that work are those based on the Via chipset and they now cost the earth if you can find them.  Most addin cards that say they are USB 2 are really USB 3 chipsets relying on the fall-back to USB 2 and so are useless at the present time.

My comment regarding the US obsession with IP is based on my talking with other engineers on various hardware fora and message boards.  The US is not exclusive with that bur the rot seems to have started out there and is spreading to other countries now.

Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on August 01, 2019, 03:41:48 pm
I am an ArcaOS reseller, and I'm fine with concentrating on Lenovo products. I prefer Intel chipsets because I'm familiar with their behavior under OS/2. I'd be willing to experiment with AMD if I had customer support (i. e. someone to actually buy an AMD-based computer)

http://www.blondeguy.com/products.html (http://www.blondeguy.com/products.html)

Newer computer support on the Intel side is very, very slow to appear. My two latest computers work only with test versions of Arca Noae drivers. The next-to-most recent computers work well enough to use in production. This would not be true if Arca Noae had not developed their various drivers.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on August 01, 2019, 10:05:02 pm
OK, back to the drawing board.

I have just spent three hours trying to do a new install on a first gen Ryzen 5 box (MSI A320M Pro-VD Plus motherboard).  While it no longer baulks at start up I can't get past the first selection screen (the one to select keyboard and mouse handedness), first it spreads beyond the screen borders and this is a 1290 x 1200 Samsung S24E650 monitor (is it expecting a 4K monitor?) but the real killer is the fact there is no mouse pointer and the keyboard doesn't work (these are both USB devices).  Part of the time was taken up removing a USB 2 card from one of my other computers and transferring it to the test machine but that didn't work, neither did the PS/2 dual socket to 2 USB sockets Y cable and since I no longer have trackballs or keyboards with PS/2 plugs so that ended that.

I suppose I will have to setup an second gen AMD A10-9700 APU on one of my Ryzen boxes and give it another try and see if the USB problem is still there.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 02, 2019, 12:53:50 am
You should open an issue about this hardware. Never know but might get some support in the way of early drivers or at least let the developers know about this.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 02, 2019, 03:03:41 pm
Hi Ivan

It is a good thing that booted, seems that the processor is fine.

Part of the time was taken up removing a USB 2 card from one of my other computers and transferring it to the test machine but that didn't work, neither did the PS/2 dual socket to 2 USB sockets Y cable and since I no longer have trackballs or keyboards with PS/2 plugs so that ended that.

I'm guessing that the USB 2.0 card worked fine on other OS/2 installation, right? So, it will be like who is not being recognized by ArcaOS, the mainboard PCI or the USB 2.0 card.

If you have the mouse and keyboard attached to the USB 2.0 card, when you access the computer BIOS, can you use the keyboard? Is this one of this BIOS that uses the mouse too? does the mouse works?

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on August 02, 2019, 06:29:29 pm
Hi Martin,

A bit more information.

Equipment:

MSI A320M Pro-VD Plus motherboard.

AMD Ryzen 5 first gen Processor

Saphire AMD Radeon Video card

2 x 4GB DDR4 memory sticks

1 x 1TB Seagate FireCuda  SATA v3

Samsung S24E650 Monitor

Kensington Prp Fit MultiMedia USB Keyboard

Kensington Orbit Optical Trackball.

For those not familiar with the motherboard I have included the rear panel layout - note the dual PS/2 keyboard/mouse socket with two USB 2 sockets under.  The two USB 2 sockets are driven from the A320M northbridge and have the keyboard and trackball plugged into them.

This computer was originally built for a friend who was killed in an accident so I ended up with it as my Linux (Zorin) computer and test bed.



On bootup I had to enter the bios and set the DVD and Hard disk to non UEFI - no problem with kb or trackball.  From here follow the original post.
Adding the USB 2 card did nothing to help even though it was recognised in the bios.

The USB2 card is back in my main computer Ryzen 3 2200G second gen processor (MSI B350M motherboard) and is working with both keyboard and trackball.

One other thing, I can get the test machine to run if I use a hard disk with a working ArcaOS install on it but it does need the Via USB 2 Card for KB and trackball to work.  It appears that I will be using disk images to get working ArcaOS systems for some time yet.
 
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 02, 2019, 07:11:55 pm
Hi

Thanks for the picture, It i clear to me now that the mainboard has USB 2.0 ports.  I tried to organize this hardware report on the OS2World wiki (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/MSI_A320M_Pro-VD_Plus). 

So the issue (beside we don't have USB 3.0 drivers) is that these devices do not work

 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3104h USB 2.0

I don't have AMD or VIA USB hardware, so I'm not sure if there is someone that can report if VIA USB 2.0 (1106:3104) had worked in the past with the USB drivers.

My last idea will be to check if the BIOS has something like "USB Legacy Support".
After that I think it good to open a ticket for the USB drivers.

Regards


Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on August 02, 2019, 09:13:53 pm
The Via USB 1.1 and 2 drivers work when you can get therm initialised.

I think the main problem is how USB support is arranged in the AMD Ryzen processor and the AMD northbridge chipsets.  Some of the USB 2 ports are enabled using a USB 3 passthrough.  Other problems could be because of the way they announce themselves (see Lars comment #17 on the USBDRV 10.225 thread. 

If they don't get initialised they will not work as I have seen a few weeks ago when I had a hard reset on my main machine and it required me to 'press enter to continue' because a driver wouldn't load - I had to borrow a keyboard with a PS/2 plug to get everything up and working again (a bit of a panic at the time because even my trusty PS/2 to USB adapters didn't work).

I will say again that ArcsOS does work, less USB 3, on a Ryzen machine if you use a working image from another AMD based machine (may need a 7th gen A series processor). So far I have been unable ti actually install from DVD or USB.
 
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on August 02, 2019, 10:53:31 pm
Quote
Adding the USB 2 card did nothing to help even though it was recognised in the bios.

Can you boot from the USB 2 card? I doubt it. I haven't seen a USB device, connected to a plug in USB card that shows up as a boot device. It certainly isn't impossible, but it is unlikely.

Quote
Some of the USB 2 ports are enabled using a USB 3 passthrough.

Is there an actual USB 2 adapter (other than what is on the plug in card)? If not, there is no way to connect those ports too a USB 2 adapter. It is possible, that they "work" because the BIOS is still driving the devices. I expect that the USB 2 card doesn't work until the USB 2 driver gets loaded, and initialized. That happens very late in the boot sequence.

Quote
I had to borrow a keyboard with a PS/2 plug to get everything up and working again

This is one of the main problems with using USB keyboards. They don't work after the BIOS loses control (sometime early in the boot sequence), and before the driver initializes (right at the end of the boot sequence). At that time, USB keyboards cannot be used to do simple things like hit <enter>. This is not new with new USB drivers, it has always been the case.

Quote
I will say again that ArcsOS does work, less USB 3, on a Ryzen machine if you use a working image from another AMD based machine (may need a 7th gen A series processor). So far I have been unable ti actually install from DVD or USB.

You should be able to install from DVD, but you may need to convince it to not use the UEFI boot method. That should be an option, somewhere in BIOS.

You can probably install from USB too, if you use a little trick:
Make two USB sticks, with the installer on them. Put one in a USB 3 port, which should boot (again, the UEFI boot isn't going to work), and load the MEMDISK, then ArcaOS can boot from the MEMDISK. At the end of that boot, the USB 3 port will not be usable, BUT, the USB 2 driver should be loaded, and the installer will find the rest of the installer on the stick that is in the USB 2 port (the plug in card, NOT the on board stuff). From that point, it should install normally.

Another way, is to make a small HDD volume (less than 2 GB, I use 2030 MB), and build the ArcaOS installer in that (it should be formatted FAT16). Boot from that volume, and you should be able to do the install (detailed instructions are in one of the README, or PDF, files in the root of the DVD). You may need to have Air Boot, or some other boot manager, installed, to be able to boot from the FAT16 volume.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Lars on August 03, 2019, 03:09:03 pm
Quote
I had to borrow a keyboard with a PS/2 plug to get everything up and working again

This is one of the main problems with using USB keyboards. They don't work after the BIOS loses control (sometime early in the boot sequence), and before the driver initializes (right at the end of the boot sequence). At that time, USB keyboards cannot be used to do simple things like hit <enter>. This is not new with new USB drivers, it has always been the case.

No this is not true. The idea is to prevent the HC drivers from resetting the host controllers until finally the system is up and running in order to not prematurely break legacy USB support. It is the job of USBD.SYS to call into the HC drivers to trigger the host controller reset and once this is done to start the enumeration process (as then the HUB HW is able to properly do its work and react to port checking requests etc.). So, the idea is to delay this process until finally the system has booted far enough to no longer need USB legacy support.

I have modified my USB drivers to do just that: USBD.SYS queues the HC driver registration requests with a timer. It additionally checks if the system has already notified (via USBMSD.ADD calling into USBD.SYS) that INT13 boot support for USB MSD is no longer needed. If the timer expires (no more HC drivers asked for registration + the system has signaled it no longer needs INT13 boot support), then USBD.SYS will go ahead and reset the HC controllers.
I can easily boot to a commandline via Alt-F1 and F2 and then use my USB keyboard. There is a short moment where the keyboard will not work from the point in time where the HC drivers have been reset (and legacy USB support ceased) until native USB support has been enabled but you can continue to type and it will eventually continue to work, in practice I have no problem using a USB keyboard from a booted up commandline.
If I additionally run "lvm /rediscoverprm" from that commandline, I can also use attached USB MSD devices.

But of course, the BIOS has to provide legacy USB support. I wonder how long that will still be the case.

The upcoming 10.229 version of my drivers will have the rest of changes I have missed in the past to support the behaviour mentioned above.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on August 03, 2019, 09:16:00 pm
Quote
So the issue (beside we don't have USB 3.0 drivers) is that these devices do not work

 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3104h USB 2.0

Well, yes, they do work. I have an old computer (Asus P4VP-MX), with those devices, and they work okay with the Arca Noae 11.17, and 12.1, USB drivers. I haven't tried Lars' drivers, but I have no reason to believe they won't work.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Lars on August 04, 2019, 12:11:50 am
Some info:

1) I think there is no chance that booting from a USB device attached to a plug-in USB card will actually work. I seem to remember that there are some HW limitations that will prevent this from working (some necessary HW signal line not wired via the PCI slot).

2) yes, VIA UHCI host controllers are supported. As far as I understand from ivan, the USB keyboard and trackball work if they are attached to the 2 "USB 2.0 only" USB ports for "normal" operation, that means, way past the boot stage. If the mouse and keyboard support does not work in the booting stage (that is, while you are presented with a fullscreen text mode with the driver signon messages showing etc.) then that either means that the system does not have USB legacy support in the "conventional" BIOS/UEFI CSM layer (that is, disregarding USB support via the UEFI BIOS which does not help OS/2 as OS/2 does not boot up via UEFI) or that the USB support breaks when switching from USB legacy support to native USB support.
What you could try out: back up \os2\boot\config.x and then remove all USB support from this file.
Then, restart the system, hit Alt-F1 and then F2 which will get you to a full screen commandline. Test the USB keyboard, it should work. If not, you are hosed and your system does not support legacy USB (via the "conventional" BIOS / UEFI CSM layer).
Don't forget to reinstate the original \os2\boot\config.x file after the test !

Lars
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Joop on August 04, 2019, 03:25:45 am
But of course, the BIOS has to provide legacy USB support. I wonder how long that will still be the case.
Probably forever, without UEFI won't work too, because it needs the kick off from start. (today a problem on HP machines with W10, after every upgrade different behaviour ;-(, so they struggling with it) And at that moment you have still influence on settings in the BIOS. Question will be if we still have access to the BIOS in the future, if yes, then there is a need for legacy USB support because other adapters are fading out (ps/2, din, serial) or are already no longer available (exclude industrial stuff).
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Lars on August 04, 2019, 12:21:18 pm
Unfortunately, I know too little about UEFI. The only things I know:

1) I have a machine with UEFI and CSM (compatibility support module = legacy BIOS support). It does have legacy USB support and even though the support is a bit buggy it works well enough for the USB keyboard to be usable without native USB drivers taking over support (I can boot to an OS/2 commandline without ANY USB drivers loaded and still use the keyboard)

2) I know of at least one other person that does have a machine with a legacy BIOS (or UEFI and CSM, I cannot remember) that however does NOT have legacy USB support. On this system, you will NOT have any USB support unless a native USB driver takes over support. My belief is that if this machine is a UEFI+CSM machine that then, ONLY UEFI USB drivers are provided along with the BIOS so that you can enter the BIOS (to change settings) or boot to a UEFI console and use the USB mouse/USB keyboard.

However "UEFI USB drivers" work completely differently: they are completely implemented in the BIOS FW and they DIRECTLY support USB mouse and keyboard (in the same way that the OS/2 SW drivers support that USB HW). In contrast, "legacy USB" support uses USB host controller HW support and also SMI to "fake" to the BIOS that an USB mouse/keyboard is a PS/2 keyboard/mouse. In short: this works completely differently. And the USB HC HW support for "legacy" operation is optional (USB HC HW does not have to provide this support).

That said, I DO believe that "legacy USB" support as we now it today will die sooner or later.

Lars
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on August 04, 2019, 10:49:53 pm
2 Ivan:

I have been looking into what your machine has, and what the USB 3 drivers will support.

Your motherboard has TWO, XHCI (USB3) adapters. The only USB 1.x, and 2.0 adapters are on the VIA plug in card. So, even if it does have USB 2 physical ports, they are operated by a USB 3 adapter, meaning they won't work until the USB 3 driver is available (not counting that they may continue to work, with BIOS support, after booting).

Your USB 3 adapters are: PCI ID 1022:15E0 devices, which is AMD USB 3.1. My main machine has PCI ID 1022:7814  devices, which is the AMD USB 3.0 equivalent. From what I have been able to find out, they use the same driver, in windows. The only difference is in the maximum transfer speed to the device (which should be a hardware function). My machine also has USB 2, and USB 1.1 adapters, built in, so I don't have your problem.

FWIW, I can load the USB 3 driver, and I can read from a USB 3 stick. It has trouble writing to it, which is one of the reasons why the USB 3 driver has not, yet, been released. So, at the moment, AMD adapters work better than Intel adapters (the driver loads, but I get no response to inserting a USB stick, of any kind, on my Intel based Lenovo ThinkPad L530). It is acknowledged, that Intel USB 3 is being a problem, and that is another reason why the USB 3 drivers are not, yet, ready.

I will also note, that Arca Noae USB 12.1 is included in ArcaOS 5.0.4. This is the 32 bit version of the Arca Noae USB drivers, without the USB 3 support. Be aware, that switching versions may require that you change the order of lines in CONFIG.SYS (as documented earlier in this thread). Or, you can use my Logical Config.Sys Sort (LCSS) from HOBBES (be sure to READ the instructions). It automatically checks the version, and adjusts CONFIG.SYS as required. I don't know if other drivers will work with the 32 bit driver, but I do know that the USBECD (Extended Control) driver does work, so I wouldn't expect problems with other drivers, unless they do version checking.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: ivan on August 04, 2019, 11:14:02 pm
Thanks Doug,

You have confirmed my assumptions regarding the USB 2 ports being on a pass-through from USB 3.

Maybe the USB 3  XHCI driver should be released in two versions - one for AMD and the other for Intel.  At least that would get the AMD version out into the wild and exposed to more testing on other AMD based motherboards.
Title: Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
Post by: Doug Bissett on August 05, 2019, 03:22:15 am
Quote
Maybe the USB 3  XHCI driver should be released in two versions - one for AMD and the other for Intel.  At least that would get the AMD version out into the wild and exposed to more testing on other AMD based motherboards.

It is one driver, and according to the USB 3.x specs, the one driver should work on all USB 3.x adapters. Unfortunately, it seems that manufacturers skipped that part of the specification (and, probably other parts too, as they always did in the past).

AMD is not one of the main suppliers of USB 3.x hardware (from what I have seen). In fact I am pretty sure that AMD simply re-brands some other manufacturers hardware. Whatever that hardware is, it is probably used on many system boards, so saying that the driver is for AMD, would be misleading, at best.