OS2 World Community Forum

OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical => Applications => Topic started by: Martin Iturbide on August 27, 2023, 03:10:10 pm

Title: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 27, 2023, 03:10:10 pm
Hello

I would like to know your first impressions since ArcaOS 5.1 was recently released. It would be great if the brave ones to try ArcaOS 5.1 first will share:
- Experience with the UEFI supporting, turning off any CSM (Compatibility Mode) and just running with UEFI mode in real hardware
- Report UEFI hardware, even if it was already reported, but now turning on the UEFI option.
- Report DOS VDM and Win-OS2 support with UEFI support turned.
- Any other thing you may experience or that you want to share.

Regards

Update: I will like to congratulate Arca Noae and the people involved on this release. Even that right now there are some server problems to get the software, I need to express my joy about this important milestone.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rick Smith on August 27, 2023, 04:42:01 pm
Greetings,

Id love to test it as soon as it allows me to purchase, their servers are so slow the payment times out and I cannot purchase...

Regards,

Rick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on August 27, 2023, 06:33:33 pm
Hi

Thinking of putting together a new system and will try 5.1.0 then.

No doubt de-selecting DOS support during install will result in some bits of DOS getting installed and need a manual cleanup after install.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on August 27, 2023, 08:30:54 pm
Just finished burning the DVD. Will report As soon as I can.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on August 27, 2023, 09:08:37 pm
My CSM upgrade went smoothly. I have tried to creat a USB stick for future attemps but it complain there is not enough room for ARCAINST.ISO.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David McKenna on August 27, 2023, 09:52:37 pm
 Did a fresh install from DVD on my desktop to an empty NVME drive, BIOS set to UEFI only. Everything went smoothly. After, I actually have a little more memory available (10MB) than when using the CSM. Also, now all DOS and Windows sessions work - first time in years!

 I don't like the little window at boot to choose the boot partition because there is only one choice. I set the time-out to 1 second, but I would really like to just get rid of it - is there a way? I will never put another OS on this computer.

 No obvious change in performance, but it is still early.

 The real test will be my Win11 laptop - will need to shrink the Win partition to create space for ArcaOS...

  For the curious, I attached the testlog for the new install...

Regards,
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rick Smith on August 27, 2023, 10:02:01 pm
Ok,

So I finally got 5.1 installed on the NUC5 (intel) and its pretty solid.  I had tried 5.07 on this machine and had all those dos window problems that we have all experienced.  This is a fresh install of 5.1 and so far everything is working that I have tested.  I have not been able to update yet I get some errors there but will keep working at it.. IF you want to know my specific HW setup let me know how to print that out for you...

Regards

Rick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 27, 2023, 10:42:02 pm
Hi David, simplest is if you can go to your BIOS to change the boot from LAUNCHER.EFI to BOOTX64.EFI. Can do it at a UEFI shell and it seems there's an utility to do it, not sure if it was only a beta thing and I forget the name of it.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 27, 2023, 10:52:19 pm
.... IF you want to know my specific HW setup let me know how to print that out for you...

Hi Rick

Yes, please let me know the Intel NUC model and post the hardware report from PCI.EXE (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Extracting_Hardware_Information_from_ArcaOS_and_OS/2) or using TestLog also gets the hardware report (http://88watts.net/dlfile.php?F=testlog-).

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 27, 2023, 10:54:02 pm
Did a fresh install from DVD on my desktop to an empty NVME drive, BIOS set to UEFI only. Everything went smoothly. After, I actually have a little more memory available (10MB) than when using the CSM. Also, now all DOS and Windows sessions work - first time in years!

Thanks for sharing the report David.
Can you please let me know the computer brand and model that you are using. If it is custom computer please let me know the mainboard brand and model.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on August 27, 2023, 11:07:49 pm
I don't like the little window at boot to choose the boot partition because there is only one choice. I set the time-out to 1 second, but I would really like to just get rid of it - is there a way? I will never put another OS on this computer.

What about other OS/2 installs? If you want to get rid of it, open MiniLVM and select System->Boot Menu->Remove. Be aware that if you have multiple OS/2 partitions, the bootloader (os2ldr.efi) may present you with its own menu and ask you to select one.

Quote
No obvious change in performance, but it is still early.

Very little has actually changed: just the bootloader, and the video's VESA emulation. GPT (which is "optional") probably has an overhead penalty of 2% but on an NVME drive you'd never notice the difference. I've been running UEFI/GPT/NVME/SecureBoot/etc exclusively since last November and it just works (except when it hangs at the boot logo).

Quote
The real test will be my Win11 laptop - will need to shrink the Win partition to create space for ArcaOS...

Warning!! If your Win drives are encrypted by Bitlocker, get your Bitlocker key before you do anything! There's an option to retrieve it in the old Control Panel app.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on August 28, 2023, 01:12:13 am
I have a couple of observations in UEFI the ASRock B550M-HDV went as smooth as can be. The UEFI is simple and easy to navigate. Arca OS 5.08 will not install on this board in CSM and it was all installed to a fresh NVME drive. The MSI B550-A=Pro is still a no go for me.. It froze on the install just ofter the items selected claiming the there was no 32bit video address available. I will play with it some more but Ivan lucked out with this board. but it could be an Issue with the AM4 5700G. I did update the ASUS TUF Gaming X550-Plus (wi-fi) it went without a hitch. I will get around to trying it in UEFI mode soon. If you are looking for a AMD AM4 board I say the ASRock and the ASUS are both good bets. I can only offer a caution on the MSI. Oh yeah the ASRock has DVI, VGA and a HDMI port for video no display port.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David McKenna on August 28, 2023, 01:18:26 am
 Hi Martin,

  It's all in the testlog - Gigabyte B365M DS3H motherboard with i5-9600 CPU and 16GB RAM. Always build my own...

Regards,
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David McKenna on August 28, 2023, 01:28:34 am
 Hi Rich,

 Now that you mention it, there was another OS/2 install on the E: drive (the original install on SSD) that I was using as my 'training wheel' in case something went wrong. Once I'm confident I won't wobble, I'll remove E: and do as you say and delete the bootloader thing.

 Also, I thought I read that secure boot should be disabled in BIOS - is that not true?

 I don't think my laptop uses the bitlocker, but thanks for bringing it up - I'll definitely check that.

Regards,
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 28, 2023, 01:40:17 am
Hi Eugene, sounds like your MSI B550-A=Pro doesn't have the video framebuffer accessible under 4GB's so unless something can be changed in the BIOS or such, it will be a no go. Need access to the video framebuffer and some systems do not allow it to be accessible in the address range that 32 bit is limited to.

Hi David, there should be a secure boot key on the install media, if you can figure out how to install it on yor computer, secure boot will work, but generally it is unsupported and should be turned off. Sounds like a later 5.1.x release will have the means to install the key.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 28, 2023, 03:58:52 am
Hi Martin,

  It's all in the testlog - Gigabyte B365M DS3H motherboard with i5-9600 CPU and 16GB RAM. Always build my own...

Regards,

Thanks David.
Let me know if you want to add something else: https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Gigabyte_B365M_DS3H

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 28, 2023, 04:24:49 am
I have a couple of observations ...

Thanks Eugene
I wrote these two pages, let me know anything you want to add.
- https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Asus_TUF_Gaming_X550-Plus_(wi-fi) (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Asus_TUF_Gaming_X550-Plus_(wi-fi))
- https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/ASRock_B550M-HDV

If you can generate the testlog report and share it here, it would be great.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on August 28, 2023, 05:30:05 am
Also, I thought I read that secure boot should be disabled in BIOS - is that not true?

Yes and no. Until you get AN's Secure Boot key registered, it has to be off because the system wll refuse to boot AOS. However while it's off, you'll be unable to boot any Win11 pre-install because they all (?) come with Secure Boot enabled (and the drive encrypted by Bitlocker). In fact, _don't_even_try_ unless you're ready to enter that gigantic Bitlocker key.

Enrolling the key manually is pretty easy on most full-featured desktop machines but usually impossible on laptops because their bare-bones firmware lacks a UI to do so. My understanding was that VOICE, not AN, was going to offer a utility to handle enrollment but perhaps things have changed. If the final product is the one I tested a while back, it's pretty easy to use.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on August 28, 2023, 10:35:36 am
I have a couple of observations in UEFI the ASRock B550M-HDV went as smooth as can be. The UEFI is simple and easy to navigate. Arca OS 5.08 will not install on this board in CSM and it was all installed to a fresh NVME drive. The MSI B550-A=Pro is still a no go for me.. It froze on the install just ofter the items selected claiming the there was no 32bit video address available. I will play with it some more but Ivan lucked out with this board. but it could be an Issue with the AM4 5700G. I did update the ASUS TUF Gaming X550-Plus (wi-fi) it went without a hitch. I will get around to trying it in UEFI mode soon. If you are looking for a AMD AM4 board I say the ASRock and the ASUS are both good bets. I can only offer a caution on the MSI. Oh yeah the ASRock has DVI, VGA and a HDMI port for video no display port.

Please note that the  ASRock B550M-HDV might be fixable. However in this forum we do not yet have the community knowledge to figure this out. The UEFI loader has code in it to remap PCI devices to work when the system is running in 32 bit address mode. When booted from the USB in the UEFI menu of ArcaOS (boot with own values). Press the key combination ALT F1 and choose to Write the two log files to the USB stick and open a ticket in the Arca Noae bug tracker. That way somebody can look at the logfile if its indeed the case the device can not be remapped. Or that the remap code has bug.  But reading these ArcaOS logs require somebody who understands these logs.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David McKenna on August 28, 2023, 12:14:19 pm
 Just noticed something weird on my new install of AN5.1 - hardware manager says I have 3 parallel ports! (only have 1) Didn't have that before when running the CSM - hmmm...

Regards,
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on August 28, 2023, 01:41:37 pm
Roderick, it is the MSI board that I had a problem with the same one that Ivan install 5.07 on. the ASRock board worked very well with no issues..
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on August 28, 2023, 02:51:07 pm
Oke wrong mainboard.

So the issue is with  MSI B550-A=Pro. You had the 32bit video memory error message. This is a new maiboard.
Again please open a ticket in https://mantis.arcanoae.com so AN can look into this if this is bug that needs to be fixed in the UEFI loader.
New code can contain bugs, so AN needs bug reports as they can not test all hardware.

Roderick

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on August 28, 2023, 03:31:22 pm
Roderick, I will do when the site gets back up and working. I will play with some of the setting in the MSI board to see if it is a UEFI issue with a workaround. And I wil post the work around that I used. Ivan installed Arca OS 5.07 on it. It should work at least in CSM mode buts does not. Although I wil say that I get farther with the install with it in UEFI mode.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 28, 2023, 03:43:28 pm
Roderick, I will do when the site gets back up and working. I will play with some of the setting in the MSI board to see if it is a UEFI issue with a workaround. And I wil post the work around that I used. Ivan installed Arca OS 5.07 on it. It should work at least in CSM mode buts does not. Although I wil say that I get farther with the install with it in UEFI mode.

Hi Eugene

I remember the MSI B550-A Pro conversation where Ivan reported it works (with ArcaOS 5.0.x) and you report that don't.
Ivan's report is here: https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/MSI_B550-A_Pro
I was wondering if you two can compare the UEFI BIOS versions. The latest version is very recent (2023-07-14). And it also would be great if Ivan can get some time to test ArcaOS 5.1 on it too with UEFI enabled.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on August 28, 2023, 04:53:43 pm
Martin, I think we did compare versions of the UEFI. I started out with the same one and upgraded hoping that would relieve the issue. It did not. I have the latest one installed now. Still not working as of the triial this morning.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: RTAN on August 28, 2023, 05:49:37 pm
ArcaOS 5.1 installed without any issues on my IBM/Lenovo T60 with ATI Graphics. It auto-detected the onboard audio, onboard wired-LAN and onboard WiFi adapter. It connected to my wired-LAN and got a DHCP address and I can browse with Firefox just fine.

I can't get the WiFi to connect at the moment but that could be me - I'm new to ArcaOS so it's taking me a while to understand how to setup the WiFi connection.

Unfortunately it wouldn't even install on my Lenovo T490s. Even switching the BIOS back to full Legacy mode it won't install. It fails at various stages (depending on whether I set full UEFI, UEFI with CSM, or full Legacy mode) which I've documented and will log a ticket for AN once Mantis is back up and running.

Richard.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tom on August 28, 2023, 06:45:25 pm
ArcaOS 5.1 installed without any issues on my IBM/Lenovo T60 with ATI Graphics. It auto-detected the onboard audio, onboard wired-LAN and onboard WiFi adapter. It connected to my wired-LAN and got a DHCP address and I can browse with Firefox just fine.

I can't get the WiFi to connect at the moment but that could be me - I'm new to ArcaOS so it's taking me a while to understand how to setup the WiFi connection.

Unfortunately it wouldn't even install on my Lenovo T490s. Even switching the BIOS back to full Legacy mode it won't install. It fails at various stages (depending on whether I set full UEFI, UEFI with CSM, or full Legacy mode) which I've documented and will log a ticket for AN once Mantis is back up and running.

Richard.

Richard,

At the moment mantis.arcanoae.com is up and running, unlike www.arcanoae.com. Maybe a different server?
So you should be able to open a ticket.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 28, 2023, 08:57:44 pm
ArcaOS 5.1 installed without any issues on my IBM/Lenovo T60 with ATI Graphics. It auto-detected the onboard audio, onboard wired-LAN and onboard WiFi adapter. It connected to my wired-LAN and got a DHCP address and I can browse with Firefox just fine.

I can't get the WiFi to connect at the moment but that could be me - I'm new to ArcaOS so it's taking me a while to understand how to setup the WiFi connection.

Hi Richard.

Did the Wifi used to work before on ArcaOS 5.0.x ?
On the information I got the "Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG adapter" worked with GenMAC
- https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T60

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rick Smith on August 29, 2023, 06:49:53 am
greetings,

Has anyone done the upgrade option for the install to 5.1?  I did a fresh install went perfectly however I would like to upgrade the machine that I use Arca on, and hoping not to have to redo the whole drive?

Rick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Jochen Schäfer on August 29, 2023, 09:36:31 am
I did a test update on my T420 and that worked great, but the installer doesn't switch the disk to GPT and doesn't add an EFI boot partition, but installs the EFI drivers.
So, I can boot via CSM or EFI (via the USB stick) and in EFI mode Win/OS2 will start.
I didn't test yet to convert the disk with Linux (GParted, DFSEE wants to delete all your partitions for the conversion) and add the EFI partition to it.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on August 29, 2023, 01:58:43 pm
I did a test update on my T420 and that worked great, but the installer doesn't switch the disk to GPT and doesn't add an EFI boot partition, but installs the EFI drivers.
So, I can boot via CSM or EFI (via the USB stick) and in EFI mode Win/OS2 will start.
I didn't test yet to convert the disk with Linux (GParted, DFSEE wants to delete all your partitions for the conversion) and add the EFI partition to it.

ArcaOS 5.1.0. is new to every one. But I think some things are being mixed up here.
What do you mean with the term ?   "ïnstalls EFI driver" does "not add the EFI boot partition".
You see that is not possible best I can tell.  If you have no EFI ESP partition and the UEFI loader is not presebt ArcaIS will not boot.
Open a ticket at https://mantis.arcanoae.com and attach testlog generic.
In parallel you can upload your testlog here as well.


Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on August 29, 2023, 03:27:05 pm
Has anyone done the upgrade option for the install to 5.1?  I did a fresh install went perfectly however I would like to upgrade the machine that I use Arca on, and hoping not to have to redo the whole drive?

You can upgrade a 5.0 installation to 5.1. The disk will still be MBR. Nothing will change except the volume you upgraded. If you want to change MBR to GPT, then you'll wipe the entire drive.

I didn't test one, but there are products that backup /wipe drive /format GPT /restore. I doubt they play nice with OS/2.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Jochen Schäfer on August 29, 2023, 05:38:11 pm
I did a test update on my T420 and that worked great, but the installer doesn't switch the disk to GPT and doesn't add an EFI boot partition, but installs the EFI drivers.
So, I can boot via CSM or EFI (via the USB stick) and in EFI mode Win/OS2 will start.
I didn't test yet to convert the disk with Linux (GParted, DFSEE wants to delete all your partitions for the conversion) and add the EFI partition to it.

ArcaOS 5.1.0. is new to every one. But I think some things are being mixed up here.
What do you mean with the term ?   "ïnstalls EFI driver" does "not add the EFI boot partition".
You see that is not possible best I can tell.  If you have no EFI ESP partition and the UEFI loader is not presebt ArcaIS will not boot.
Open a ticket at https://mantis.arcanoae.com and attach testlog generic.
In parallel you can upload your testlog here as well.


Roderick
I booted the USB from EFI, so the installer knew, that EFI is enabled. The update then adds some entries to config.sys like VEFI.
You still can boot from CSM, but the new driver will generate startup errors, which is to expected.
But you are wrong, if you say, you can't boot ArcaOS without the ESP partition. It's definitely possible.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 29, 2023, 07:03:26 pm
Hello

Seems that I have to relearn more things about the PC with UEFI.

"The EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) system partition or ESP is a partition on a data storage device (usually a hard disk drive or solid-state drive) that is used by computers having the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI). When a computer is booted, UEFI firmware loads files stored on the ESP to start installing operating systems and various utilities. "
Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFI_system_partition).

Is that ESP partition optional or mandatory on the HDD for an UEFI install?

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Jochen Schäfer on August 29, 2023, 07:20:05 pm
Hello

Seems that I have to relearn more things about the PC with UEFI.

"The EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) system partition or ESP is a partition on a data storage device (usually a hard disk drive or solid-state drive) that is used by computers having the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI). When a computer is booted, UEFI firmware loads files stored on the ESP to start installing operating systems and various utilities. "
Source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFI_system_partition).

Is that ESP partition optional or mandatory on the HDD for an UEFI install?

Regards
You need some ESP partition to boot from, but it hasn't to be on the same disk, as the system you want to boot.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on August 29, 2023, 07:23:38 pm
I did a test update on my T420 and that worked great, but the installer doesn't switch the disk to GPT and doesn't add an EFI boot partition, but installs the EFI drivers.

The biggest problem here is invalid assumptions and expectations. The first is that the installer was designed to upgrade an existing partition from CSM to EFI. It wasn't: it was intended to upgrade 5.0 CSM to 5.1 CSM _or_ a do new 5.1 EFI install. As you have demonstrated, the CSM->EFI upgrade path is available - you just have to finish the job (see below).

The other incorrect assumption is that "something" would automatically convert your disk to GPT even though such a feature isn't mentioned in the documentation nor does it appear in the installer's UI.. As it happens, the only known OS/2-based MBR to GPT converter is sitting here on my hard drive. I offered it to one of AN's principals but he declined the offer because he couldn't imagine a reason someone would want such a thing. Sad but true...

To finish your CSM->EFI conversion, you just need to create the EFI partition. Here's how:
* boot up yur new install using the USB strick
* open MiniLVM
* select System->Create EFI partition; follow the instructions
* select System->Boot Menu->Install/Update; follow the instructions
* eject the USB stick and reboot - you should get the AN Launcher menu (i.e. AN's EFI boot manager)

Edit: MiniLVM offers these options for a GPT disk. I _assume_ they're also available for MBR disks. If not, it's still easy to create a bootable EFI partition - you just have to copy some files.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: ivan on August 29, 2023, 07:35:34 pm
I may be an old fogey, but why are people trying to turn OS/2 into a version of windows because that is what they are trying to do copying the MS disk format and layout.  Even UEFI is a MS attempt to stop Linux and other OSs from booting - it didn't work stopping Linux and it Shouldn't stop OS/2.

I have several computers (OS/2 W4, ArcaOS, Linux Mint and Win7 as a data logger) near me, all connected to a single 28 inch 16x10 monitor plus keyboard and trackball via an HDMI-usb switch.  All of those computers have multiple disks fitted, all MBR and running without problems.  I have NO intention of changing that setup.

So far everything reads against upgrading to the new version unless someone can pul a must have item out of the bag and no rpm/yum doesn't cut it - I gave up on SUSE Linux because of that.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: RTAN on August 29, 2023, 09:15:19 pm
At the moment mantis.arcanoae.com is up and running, unlike www.arcanoae.com. Maybe a different server?
So you should be able to open a ticket.

Thanks but curiously I can't login at present ("bad username or password") - I'll contact AN Support directly and ask them to help me get logged-in so I can file a bug report.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: RTAN on August 29, 2023, 09:21:40 pm
Did the Wifi used to work before on ArcaOS 5.0.x ?
On the information I got the "Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG adapter" worked with GenMAC
- https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T60

Hi Martin,

I didn't previously use ArcaOS 5.0.x, I was a genuine Warp 4 user waiting patiently in the wings for ArcaOS v5.1! I'm sure it's just user error so I'll spend a little more time on this over the weekend and let you know either way whether the Lenovo T60 can now be considered fully functional. It definitely sees the WiFi NIC so it's likely either a local settings issue or possibly the fact that my APs have defaulted to WPA-3 only (which might not be supported by ArcaOS 5.1).

Best,
Richard.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 29, 2023, 09:26:35 pm
At the moment mantis.arcanoae.com is up and running, unlike www.arcanoae.com. Maybe a different server?
So you should be able to open a ticket.

Thanks but curiously I can't login at present ("bad username or password") - I'll contact AN Support directly and ask them to help me get logged-in so I can file a bug report.

Make sure that you don't use the part after @ for your username. Eg if you use rtan@example.com, log in with simple rtan
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on August 29, 2023, 09:41:57 pm
I may be an old fogey, but why are people trying to turn OS/2 into a version of windows because that is what they are trying to do copying the MS disk format and layout.  Even UEFI is a MS attempt to stop Linux and other OSs from booting - it didn't work stopping Linux and it Shouldn't stop OS/2.

Hi Ivan, officially Arca Noae does recommend using MBR and CSM (unless things have changed recently).
Two things, CSM is going or gone away with new computers so UEFI is the only option.
The advantages of GPT is easier co-existence with other OS's in particular Windows, so buy a computer with Windows and want to keep Windows, shrink the Windows partition and install ArcaOS in a GPT partition rather then having to erase the disk and reinstall Windows in a MBR setup, if current Windows even allows that.
The other advantage is when you buy a new 4TB HD, usually OS/2 can only use half that disk. Partition it with GPT into 2 2TB partitions and OS/2 can use the whole disk, seeing it as 2 HD's, same with larger disks.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on August 29, 2023, 11:07:30 pm
Downloaded my ArcaOS 5.1 and made the bootable USB stick.. I am doing an in-place upgrade and I can get to 60% and then it fails. Where to start troubleshooting?

I reported the issue on Mantis.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on August 29, 2023, 11:23:31 pm
If I try to "Boot From Harddisk" after the first reboot I get a Invalid code for JFS 0000:5AEB
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Andi B. on August 30, 2023, 09:18:29 am
Quote
have defaulted to WPA-3 only (which might not be supported by ArcaOS 5.1).
Our XWLAN / wpa_supplicant definitely don't support WPA3. As we don't even have nearly current wifi NIC drivers there's no need for further wpa_supplicant/XWLAN development also.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Jochen Schäfer on August 30, 2023, 11:43:22 am
The other incorrect assumption is that "something" would automatically convert your disk to GPT even though such a feature isn't mentioned in the documentation nor does it appear in the installer's UI.. As it happens, the only known OS/2-based MBR to GPT converter is sitting here on my hard drive. I offered it to one of AN's principals but he declined the offer because he couldn't imagine a reason someone would want such a thing. Sad but true...
If you assume, that someone would update to 5.1, i.e. on a working system, but then would have leave MBR as it is, then yes, you don't need the tool.
But I really don't want to reinstall my development machine, just to have GPT partition. On the other, hand, the only way to also have Windows 10, Linux and MacOS (!) on the T480, was to install a second flash drive just to have ArcaOS on it and have my boot manager reboot through the BIOS to have boot the MBR disk.
I would be happy to test your tool.

To finish your CSM->EFI conversion, you just need to create the EFI partition. Here's how:
* boot up yur new install using the USB strick
* open MiniLVM
* select System->Create EFI partition; follow the instructions
* select System->Boot Menu->Install/Update; follow the instructions
* eject the USB stick and reboot - you should get the AN Launcher menu (i.e. AN's EFI boot manager)

Edit: MiniLVM offers these options for a GPT disk. I _assume_ they're also available for MBR disks. If not, it's still easy to create a bootable EFI partition - you just have to copy some files.
Do you know, whether the EFI files installed via MiniLVM are the same as the ones on the USB stick?
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on August 30, 2023, 04:09:53 pm
So, if I want to switch my current install of 5.0.8 CSM to 5.1 UEFI to take advantage of the improved DOS and Win-OS/2 support I would need to make the appropriate BIOS changes and then wipe my current install and do a clean install or could I go from CSM to UEFI via the upgrade path?

From what I've read in this thread and my understanding I think I could accomplish this via an upgrade and then follow the steps as Rich posted to finish the CSM to UEFI conversion. Just want to make sure I'm understanding it all.

Thanks,

  Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on August 30, 2023, 06:25:58 pm
On the other, hand, the only way to also have Windows 10, Linux and MacOS (!) on the T480, was to install a second flash drive just to have ArcaOS on it and have my boot manager reboot through the BIOS to have boot the MBR disk.

What boot manager do you use? It would be nice to mix UEFI and non-UEFI disks on a system.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Jochen Schäfer on August 30, 2023, 06:30:34 pm
I use Refind.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on August 30, 2023, 07:01:27 pm
Do you know, whether the EFI files installed via MiniLVM are the same as the ones on the USB stick?

The binaries are the same but they're configured to run the installer. MiniLVM will install and configure them for normal usage, and will create a new entry in your machine's Boot List so they can be found. Currently there's no way to create this entry manually so you probbly have to use MiniLVM to get a complete installation. (FYI... the EFI boot files can be found on your installed system under 'C:\sys\install\UEFI' in the 'EFI\OS2' directory.)

Edit: I see that you are using reFind. If so, create an 'EFI\OS2' directory on your EFI System Partition (ESP), copy the files from your installed system, then create an entry in reFind that points at '\EFI\OS2\os2ldr.efi'. Specify the drive letter of your installation as a commandline argument. No MiniLVM steps required.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Greg Pringle on August 30, 2023, 08:56:33 pm

What boot manager do you use? It would be nice to mix UEFI and non-UEFI disks on a system.

I would like the same thing due to large amounts of data on MBR disks.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on August 30, 2023, 09:05:30 pm
if I want to switch my current install of 5.0.8 CSM to 5.1 UEFI [...] could I go from CSM to UEFI via the upgrade path? [...] I think I could accomplish this via an upgrade and then follow the steps as Rich posted to finish the CSM to UEFI conversion.

FWIW... I don't have the final 5.1GA yet _and_ I don't have a dual CSM/UEFI machine any more, so I can't test most of this stuff the way I normally would. However, after doing 100+ UEFI installs, many with non-standard configurations, I think I've gotten the hang of it...

If the installer will let you do an upgrade when booted in UEFI mode then you should end up with all the files needed to boot either way. The only difference between a fully-functional CSM system and a UEFI system are these two lines in 'config.sys':

[CSM]
DEVICE=C:\OS2\MDOS\VSVGA.SYS
SET VIO_SVGA=DEVICE(BVHVGA,BVHSVGA)

[EFI]
DEVICE=C:\OS2\MDOS\VEFI.SYS
SET VIO_SVGA=DEVICE(BVHEFI)

So, if you run into problems getting UEFI going, you can update config.sys accordingly then revert to CSM.

Be aware that if you don't already have an ESP (EFI System Partition), creating one on an MBR drive has some gotcha's. First, it must be a primary partition - 256MB is typical but an OS/2-only system can get by with ~8MB (1 cylinder). More important, when scanning an MBR disk, most systems will examine each FAT32 partition looking for '\EFI\BOOT\BOOTX64.EFI' and will ignore any other files. MiniLVM's install routine accomodates this by putting 2 copies of 'launcher.efi' in '\EFI\BOOT', one of which is renamed BOOTX64.EFI.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on August 31, 2023, 02:23:05 am
So, if I want to switch my current install of 5.0.8 CSM to 5.1 UEFI to take advantage of the improved DOS and Win-OS/2 support I would need to make the appropriate BIOS changes and then wipe my current install and do a clean install or could I go from CSM to UEFI via the upgrade path?

Hi Tony.

Lewis did a Warpstock 2022 presentation about ArcaOS 5.1 Upgrades.
- http://www.warpstock.org/filemgmt_data/files/ArcaOS%20Upgrades.pdf
- https://youtu.be/xzB1VyK-qEc?list=PL4pjffCdj7wRQFpS0pYUewRXlm2wHgNy3&t=1507
It's kind of confusing, but I think this is Scenario 7, which you have to proceed as Scenario 2, which means backup everything and install ArcaOS and restore apps and data.
I think it is a wipe and clean install.

This presentation was from Nov of 2022, not sure if things changed with the 5.1 release.
Everybody: I think it is good to read the slides called "Reasons to use GPT", "Reasons to not use GPT", "Reasons to use UEFI" and "Reasons not to use UEFI", those are very straight forward and simple.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on August 31, 2023, 02:27:08 pm
Thanks Rich and Martin for the info. I appreciate it and it's given me some things to consider as I decide the best way to proceed with stepping up to 5.1.

@Rich
 My ArcaOS machine, an Acer Aspire m5-581tg Ultrabook has a small, 10GB SSD in addition to a regular 500GB drive. The SSD has an ESP so I should be ok in that respect if I try the upgrade path.

@Martin
 The slides and video were very helpful. Definitely makes things a lot clearer now as it explained the differences in the various options.

 I always backup whether upgrading or doing a fresh, clean install so I may try to upgrade and if that doesn't work then I'll just do a clean install. I really want/need full DOS and Win-OS/2 support, including sound.

Best wishes,

 Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on August 31, 2023, 05:30:06 pm
I finally got the 5.1 update to install. It was a matter of changing a setting in BIOS. Are there any optional packages that didn't get installed when doing an in-place update?
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on August 31, 2023, 10:52:28 pm
I may try to upgrade and if that doesn't work then I'll just do a clean install. I really want/need full DOS and Win-OS/2 support, including sound.

After I got my copy of 5.1, I simulated an upgrade from CSM to UEFI to see what the result would be. The video installer recognized that the drivers needed for UEFI were missing, so it installed them. However, two other files that aren't part of the video package weren't installed, namely 'AOSLOGO' (the new PNG bootlogo) and 'VBIOS.SYS' (a patched version of the original dated 5/11/2020).

The result is a seemingly functional system that's missing the bootlogo and may bomb out playing some crazy DOS game. On the whole, I wouldn't recommend going the CSM->UEFI "upgrade" route until there's a package that does a comprehensive job.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 01, 2023, 06:54:01 pm
The result is a seemingly functional system that's missing the bootlogo and may bomb out playing some crazy DOS game. On the whole, I wouldn't recommend going the CSM->UEFI "upgrade" route until there's a package that does a comprehensive job.

Thanks for your efforts Rich. All things considered, I believe my best option is going to be to do a full backup and then a fresh, clean install of 5.1.

Best wishes,

 Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: ivan on September 01, 2023, 08:13:24 pm
How does all this work if you have a 2GB boot partition with other partitions for such things as 'utilities', programs', 'home' etc?  I have never put everything on the boot partition because that prevents updating and leaving data alone.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on September 01, 2023, 08:56:51 pm
You just need a small ESP primary partition on your boot HD. You could perhaps shrink your 2GB boot partition down to 1.9GB and use the empty space to use as the ESP partition. As Rich said, if only booting OS/2, it can be as small as one cylinder.
My current ESP, which also has the refind bootmanager on it to boot Linux,
Code: [Select]

U:\>du -h
96K     ./EFI/BOOT/keys
696K    ./EFI/BOOT/icons
624K    ./EFI/BOOT/icons-backup
4.0K    ./EFI/BOOT/vars
1.9M    ./EFI/BOOT
944K    ./EFI/OS2
0       ./EFI/tools
2.8M    ./EFI
2.8M    .
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David McKenna on September 02, 2023, 01:41:44 am
 Wanted to upgrade my ArcaOS server (C: - no other OS) to ver 5.1 UEFI onto an NVME disk from an SSD disk. The NVME disk can only be booted in UEFI mode on this computer, although it is visible in ArcaOS otherwise (as disk E:). The SSD disk had ver 5.0.8, so I formatted the NVME disk (E: = 500GB) to JFS with a small (4GB) empty space at the end and while booted to the SSD did an XCOPY C: E: /H/O/T/S/E/R/V. Then shut down and removed the SSD disk (C:) from the computer.

 Then I set the BIOS to disable the CSM and booted the ArcaOS 5.1 install DVD. Booted to the system management page (in UEFI mode), then used the disk management tool to set the NVME drive's main partition to C: (instead of E:) and then created the EFI partiton in the 4GB empty space (disk Y:}. Rebooted again to the DVD, then from system management installed the boot menu from the disk management tool to disk Y:.

 Now I rebooted the DVD again and ran the install. Chose to update/upgrade C: and it all worked! Now I have ArcaOS 5.1 in UEFI mode on my server (serves Apache, ftp, CUPS, and SAMBA). All DOS and WinOS2 sessions work too - a first! Hope this may help someone else to upgrade without totally wiping their current install...

Regards,
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 02, 2023, 04:51:32 pm
Now I rebooted the DVD again and ran the install. Chose to update/upgrade C: and it all worked! Now I have ArcaOS 5.1 in UEFI mode on my server (serves Apache, ftp, CUPS, and SAMBA). All DOS and WinOS2 sessions work too - a first! Hope this may help someone else to upgrade without totally wiping their current install...

 Thanks for sharing the details of your success on going from 5.0.8 CSM to upgrading to 5.1 UEFI. Hopefully my own upgrade will go as smoothly.

Best wishes,

 Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on September 02, 2023, 05:52:16 pm
Thanks David that’s a great idea. I couldn’t get Dos/Win to Work on my update. Will try this.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 03, 2023, 11:50:16 pm
 Just wanted to let you guys know that I've successfully installed ArcaOS 5.1. I ended up creating a small EFI partition on the 20GB SSD that's installed in my Acer Ultrabook. Then, I created a primary partition using the remaining space on that same SSD which is where I installed a fresh copy of 5.1. This left me with the EFI and ArcaOS 5.1 on my SSD and once booted into the desktop, I backed up all of my personal stuff from the other HD in this laptop, a 500GB drive. Then I wiped it clean and formatted it as a JFS data drive. So, the end result is I have ArcaOS 5.1 running in UEFI and DOS and Win-OS/2 sessions are working perfectly for me now. This also gave me the opportunity to configure my system the way I should have originally, with ArcaOS on it's own fast SSD, D: drive and all my programs/data on a separate traditional HD, E: drive. It definitely boots faster thanks to the SSD.

  Best wishes,

    Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 04, 2023, 01:19:19 am
Just wanted to let you guys know that I've successfully installed ArcaOS 5.1. ...

Hi Tony. Do you think it can be possible for you to please share the PCI.exe report? You can use pci.exe (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Extracting_Hardware_Information_from_ArcaOS_and_OS/2) or Testlog (http://88watts.net/dlfile.php?F=testlog-).

I found two machines with your description. "Acer Aspire M5-581TG-53314G52Mass" and "Acer Aspire M5-581TG-9825" which one do you have?

If someone else want to report their hardware for the OS2World wiki, please write here or let me know.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 04, 2023, 01:27:26 am
Hey Martin,
 
 Yes, I'll be glad to share a report but it will be tomorrow before I can get to it.

  I have the Acer Aspire M5-581TG-9825 machine.

Thanks!

  Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on September 04, 2023, 04:04:09 am
Installed 5.1.  First impressions are that it boots up faster than the previous versions.  Cannot wait for the new XWP that Rich is working on.

When using YUM, why not have FM2 listed under Warpin that can be downloaded and installed. List other Warping installations that can be installed that are not already. I had to find my copy.  I am lost without it since I have been using it ever since I found OS/2 many many years ago.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 04, 2023, 10:38:24 pm
Martin,

  Attached below is my Testlog file as you requested. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do.

Best wishes,

 Tony.


Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Andi B. on September 05, 2023, 09:13:40 am
Installed 5.1.  First impressions are that it boots up faster than the previous versions. ....
Why do you think it boots faster? Did you measure a difference? Do you have any idea what's changed to make it faster?

I cant think of anything else except accidentally waiting on IP address (dhcpstart with wrong parameter) in config.sys which can make booting other ArcaOS installation slower. Puzzling.....
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 05, 2023, 02:37:57 pm
  Attached below is my Testlog file as you requested. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do.

Thanks Tony.
Let me know if the info is corrected and anything else you want to add:
https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Acer_Aspire_M5-581TG-9825

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: robbiec on September 05, 2023, 02:55:23 pm
Installed ok on a newish Ryzen System with CSM disabled. - Ryzen 2300, Asus WS-Pro X570, 32GB, 500GB Hynix NVMe SSD. It gave trouble with the Realtek 8117 NIC which I disabled and also generated a halt / exception if I tried installing with an Intel Optane 905 U.2 drive attached. Intel I211AT working, and Nvidia Quadro P200 serving up graphics using Panorama. Sound not functional.
I've attached the pci report below. 

Edit: Can replicate the NVMe exception if I power on the Intel Optane using U.2 interface.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 05, 2023, 03:43:54 pm
Thanks Tony.
Let me know if the info is corrected and anything else you want to add:
https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Acer_Aspire_M5-581TG-9825

Regards

Hey Martin,

  I made a mistake on the model number that I posted earlier. It's actually an Acer Aspire M5-581T-6405. The main difference is that it has a 1.8GHz Core i5-3337U processor with TurboBoost able to push it to 2.7GHz if needed.

Here's a couple of links to articles about my laptop if you need more info.

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/acer-aspire-m5-581t-6405

https://laptoping.com/acer-aspire-m5-581t-6405.html

Hope this helps and sorry for the mixup with the model number.

Thanks Martin!

  Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 05, 2023, 07:17:29 pm
Thanks Tony.
Let me know if the info is corrected and anything else you want to add:
https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Acer_Aspire_M5-581TG-9825

Regards

Hey Martin,

  I made a mistake on the model number that I posted earlier. It's actually an Acer Aspire M5-581T-6405. The main difference is that it has a 1.8GHz Core i5-3337U processor with TurboBoost able to push it to 2.7GHz if needed.

Here's a couple of links to articles about my laptop if you need more info.

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/acer-aspire-m5-581t-6405

https://laptoping.com/acer-aspire-m5-581t-6405.html

Hope this helps and sorry for the mixup with the model number.

Thanks Martin!

  Tony.

No problem, it is fixed now:
- https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Acer_Aspire_M5-581T-6405
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 05, 2023, 08:00:50 pm

No problem, it is fixed now:
- https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Acer_Aspire_M5-581T-6405


Look good! Much appreciated Martin!

Best wishes,

  Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David McKenna on September 05, 2023, 11:02:47 pm
 Here's another success story (eventually). I have an HP Laptop 17-by2053cl with Windows 11 on it , UEFI only, previously upgraded to 16GB RAM and SSD drive. Wanted ArcaOS 5.1 on it too. Tried to install with a DVD but it would not boot, so made a USB stick, and boot would start, but then hang immediately after the boot logo. Eventually figured out that it didn't like AMOUSE.SYS, so switched to IBM's MOUSE.SYS and boot continued to the WPS, but then I got a 'ISO not found' error when the WPS started.. Fiddled with it for too long, but figured out that if I remove the USB stick and re-insert at the right moment before the WPS started, then the install started, but then it could not find any disk to install on. Turns out the install did not detect the SATA adapter (because it is technically a RAID adapter, though in non-RAID mode) so I was finally stuck.

Then I found out there is an NVME slot in this laptop! So I got a 1TB one ($45) and transferred Win11 over to it and left a nice big 450GB unallocated space for ArcaOS. Made sure Win worked, then restarted installing ArcaOS using lessons learned up to now and it recognized the NVME drive as GPT and installed, although I had to do the remove/re-insert trick with the USB stick at each boot. Now ArcaOS was installed - woohoo! But...

 When I rebooted with no USB stick attached, I got a 'Your system needs to be Repaired' blue screen of confusion. It took me a while to figure out I needed to go into the BIOS to set the ArcaOS EFI as the default. Now the Arca EFI boot list appeared and I could boot ArcaOS 5.1 and it worked - Wow! Even more amazing, it now recognized the SATA drive, and I could format it FAT32 to use as storage for both OS's. But...

 Rebooted and tried to boot  Windows, but again the 'Repair' blue screen. Tried doing repairs as per various Internet sites, but nothing worked, so finally just re-installed Windows 11 (from DVD). That worked and now I can switch between the 2 OS's at will using the ArcaOS EFI menu.

  And I have to say that this laptop works great with ArcaOS (and Windows) now that it is installed on an NVME. If only ArcaOS had WiFi <sigh>.

 I'll upload a testlog too...

Regards,

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on September 05, 2023, 11:03:54 pm
I was able to sort of get windowed DOS sessions working. Full screen DOS sessions work fine for me now. I found a thread here that suggested opening a full screen DOS window and ALT+Tab to make it a windowed and it worked!
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on September 05, 2023, 11:32:04 pm
I was able to sort of get windowed DOS sessions working. Full screen DOS sessions work fine for me now.

You didn't identify whether you're booting in CSM or UEFI mode - it makes a world of difference. If UEFI, you've got a real problem; if CSM, this is par-for-the-course.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: TNG999 on September 06, 2023, 12:40:16 am
Fresh EFI install of 5.1 on HP EliteDesk 800 G3 machine worked just fine...  Only thing I had to change was Secure Boot Disable and Legacy Support Enable in the BIOS and then the USB stick booted fine EFI. 

HP Desktop Computer EliteDesk 800 G3 (1FY72UT#ABA)
Intel Core i7 7th Gen 7700 (3.6 GHz)
8 GB DDR4
256 GB PCIe NVMe SSD
Intel HD Graphics 630

-m
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tom on September 06, 2023, 01:18:10 am
I was able to sort of get windowed DOS sessions working. Full screen DOS sessions work fine for me now. I found a thread here that suggested opening a full screen DOS window and ALT+Tab to make it a windowed and it worked!

You probably mean Alt + Home instead of Alt + Tab ? Alt + Home should also work the other way around: from window to full screen.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on September 06, 2023, 01:20:09 am
Yep. Alt + Home in CSM mode.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 06, 2023, 06:31:00 am
Fresh EFI install of 5.1 on HP EliteDesk 800 G3 machine worked just fine...  Only thing I had to change was Secure Boot Disable and Legacy Support Enable in the BIOS and then the USB stick booted fine EFI. 

HP Desktop Computer EliteDesk 800 G3 (1FY72UT#ABA)
Intel Core i7 7th Gen 7700 (3.6 GHz)
8 GB DDR4
256 GB PCIe NVMe SSD
Intel HD Graphics 630

-m

Thanks for you report TNG999.
I wrote that your machine here:https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/HP_EliteDesk_800_G3.

Do you think it can be possible for you to please share the PCI.exe report? You can use pci.exe (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Extracting_Hardware_Information_from_ArcaOS_and_OS/2) or Testlog (http://88watts.net/dlfile.php?F=testlog-).

Regards

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 06, 2023, 12:03:10 pm
Fresh EFI install of 5.1 on HP EliteDesk 800 G3 machine worked just fine...  Only thing I had to change was Secure Boot Disable and Legacy Support Enable in the BIOS and then the USB stick booted fine EFI. 

HP Desktop Computer EliteDesk 800 G3 (1FY72UT#ABA)
Intel Core i7 7th Gen 7700 (3.6 GHz)
8 GB DDR4
256 GB PCIe NVMe SSD
Intel HD Graphics 630

-m

Did you boot in UEFI mode or CSM mode ?

BTW while its recommended the CSM is also switched on even when boot in UEFI mode. In some cases it can also have negative side effect. I have one system where switching on the CSM reduces system memory by 256 MB.  So switching on CSM does not always have a positive effect.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 06, 2023, 12:12:59 pm
Here's another success story (eventually). I have an HP Laptop 17-by2053cl with Windows 11 on it , UEFI only, previously upgraded to 16GB RAM and SSD drive. Wanted ArcaOS 5.1 on it too. Tried to install with a DVD but it would not boot, so made a USB stick, and boot would start, but then hang immediately after the boot logo. Eventually figured out that it didn't like AMOUSE.SYS, so switched to IBM's MOUSE.SYS and boot continued to the WPS, but then I got a 'ISO not found' error when the WPS started.. Fiddled with it for too long, but figured out that if I remove the USB stick and re-insert at the right moment before the WPS started, then the install started, but then it could not find any disk to install on. Turns out the install did not detect the SATA adapter (because it is technically a RAID adapter, though in non-RAID mode) so I was finally stuck.

Then I found out there is an NVME slot in this laptop! So I got a 1TB one ($45) and transferred Win11 over to it and left a nice big 450GB unallocated space for ArcaOS. Made sure Win worked, then restarted installing ArcaOS using lessons learned up to now and it recognized the NVME drive as GPT and installed, although I had to do the remove/re-insert trick with the USB stick at each boot. Now ArcaOS was installed - woohoo! But...

 When I rebooted with no USB stick attached, I got a 'Your system needs to be Repaired' blue screen of confusion. It took me a while to figure out I needed to go into the BIOS to set the ArcaOS EFI as the default. Now the Arca EFI boot list appeared and I could boot ArcaOS 5.1 and it worked - Wow! Even more amazing, it now recognized the SATA drive, and I could format it FAT32 to use as storage for both OS's. But...

 Rebooted and tried to boot  Windows, but again the 'Repair' blue screen. Tried doing repairs as per various Internet sites, but nothing worked, so finally just re-installed Windows 11 (from DVD). That worked and now I can switch between the 2 OS's at will using the ArcaOS EFI menu.

  And I have to say that this laptop works great with ArcaOS (and Windows) now that it is installed on an NVME. If only ArcaOS had WiFi <sigh>.

 I'll upload a testlog too...

Regards,

Windows 11 MIGHT have failed because you switched between RAID and SATA mode...

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Eugene Tucker on September 06, 2023, 03:21:52 pm
I was able to get Arca OS 5.1 on my Asus Tuf Gaming A17 laptop. I did have to disable Secure Boot though. I cannot resize or move Windows. But wired networking works more details as I progress.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 06, 2023, 03:51:15 pm
Did you boot in UEFI mode or CSM mode ?

BTW while its recommended the CSM is also switched on even when boot in UEFI mode....

Hello Roderick,

  Could you please explain the advantages of enabling Legacy support in the BIOS on UEFI installs of 5.1 or point me to a link where I can find that info? On my UEFI 5.1 install I left Legacy support disabled and everything seems good so far.

Thanks,

  Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 06, 2023, 11:46:19 pm
Hi Tony

This page mentions enabling CSM even if booting in uefi  https://www.arcanoae.com/wiki/arcaos/technical-specifications/   - see paragraph 4


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 07, 2023, 12:01:43 am
Did you boot in UEFI mode or CSM mode ?

BTW while its recommended the CSM is also switched on even when boot in UEFI mode....

Hello Roderick,

  Could you please explain the advantages of enabling Legacy support in the BIOS on UEFI installs of 5.1 or point me to a link where I can find that info? On my UEFI 5.1 install I left Legacy support disabled and everything seems good so far.

Thanks,

  Tony.

I understood at Warpstock Orlando during a presentation from Lewis Rosenthal the following (this is my wording).

1. Switching on UEFI and CSM could result in a memory layout that might be more beneficial for OS/2. As I typed before I have had the opposite experience on a system where enableing the CSM with UEFI boot result in 256 MB LESS memory for OS/2. Switching off CSM support

2. Th idea to enable the CSM and UEFI code is that the CSM code might better initialise device's in the PC such as devices on the PCI bus.

Note that I have seen systems where you can ONLY enable UEFI OR CSM and NOT enable them both at the same time. Keep an eye on this!

From my perspective enabling the CSM by default with UEFI boot could hide issue's that could appear on new equipment where NO CSM is present. Like a PCI device not being initiliased.

The generic trent is simple. Intel already declared CSM would go away janauryb 2020.  With Windows 7 having gone out of support 2 years ago (which required CSM boot) CSM's are rarely present in modern modern systems. UEFI is also just part of longer ongoing trend to have more stuff done by the OS and not the BIOS/UEFI firmware. That can include the OS has to initialise a PCI device for example.

Roderick

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 07, 2023, 12:03:19 am
Hello

Now it my turn installing ArcaOS 5.1 on a Virtual Machine (VirtualBox 7.0.10 on Windows 10 host). Nothing funny, no UEFI emu, no nvme, no GTP.. just the normal stuff.

Installation went normal.

When I run E.exe I get this POPUPLOG error :
Quote
09-06-2023  16:54:56  SYS2070  PID 008c  TID 0001  Slot 0020
C:\OS2\E.EXE
C:\PSFONTS\WARPSANS.FON
193
------------------------------------------------------------

But WARPSANS.FON it's on its place.
Quote
8-21-22  2:02p       349,642      0 a---  WARPSANS.FON

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 07, 2023, 12:07:16 am
Report on the testers list or open a bug. Attach a testlog.

No clue what is going on.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: ivan on September 07, 2023, 01:21:50 pm
Now everyone has had their say, the one thing I don't see are comments about improvements to the OS/2 part.  Can I assume that it is still the same as 5.0.7?
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Tiny Frogware on September 07, 2023, 01:22:49 pm
@Pete
Thanks for the link to the UEFI info Pete.

@Roderick
I appreciate your reply Roderick. Great info and helped clear things up for me. I need to double check, but I think my laptop allows either CSM or UEFI  to be enabled but not both at once. Still, glad to know for future reference.

Best wishes,

 Tony.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 07, 2023, 02:04:36 pm
Now everyone has had their say, the one thing I don't see are comments about improvements to the OS/2 part.  Can I assume that it is still the same as 5.0.7?

What improvements to the OS/2 part where you expecting specifically ?

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 07, 2023, 02:30:53 pm
Now it's my turn on report on hardware.

I had installed ArcaOS 5.1 (UEFI) with Windows 11 dual boot on the "HP Pavillion x360 m3 (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/HP_Pavillion_x360_m3)", it is on the OS2World wiki.
Now I need more than ever the Wifi support   ;D (no Ethernet port on this machine)

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: ivan on September 07, 2023, 05:09:00 pm
I wasn't expecting anything specific, just wondering if there might be some improvement in memory management.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 07, 2023, 07:06:21 pm
I wasn't expecting anything specific, just wondering if there might be some improvement in memory management.

Nope nothing has been modified that I am aware off.
I think the whole introduction of UEFI and GPT is already a very big upgrade for OS/2.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on September 07, 2023, 08:49:31 pm
Now it's my turn on report on hardware.

I had installed ArcaOS 5.1 (UEFI) with Windows 11 dual boot on the "HP Pavillion x360 m3 (https://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/HP_Pavillion_x360_m3)", it is on the OS2World wiki.
Now I need more than ever the Wifi support   ;D (no Ethernet port on this machine)

Regards

Time to get a gl.inet portable router..
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 07, 2023, 09:23:07 pm
Hello

What is the solution for a laptop without ethernet port to get the wireless working?
- USB to ethernet first and later one of this routers or "Ethernet to Wifi" adapter?

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: christech on September 07, 2023, 10:31:22 pm
Yes, I got a USB to Ethernet, and then the Gl.inet portable router. The believe the chipset for the USB->Ethernet needs to be a MOS.

I ordered a Startech USB2105S for the USB-Ethernet adapter, and then added it as a network adapter under ArcaOS. You can order other brands but the chipset needs to be:


The USB2105S adapter has the MosChip MCS7830 chipset. Oh and Dooble works great for accessing the Gl.inet's web interface for configuration.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on September 08, 2023, 03:29:38 pm
Hello

What is the solution for a laptop without ethernet port to get the wireless working?
- USB to ethernet first and later one of this routers or "Ethernet to Wifi" adapter?

Regards

If you have USB 12.14 installed, have a look at the USBASIX network driver. It seems to support a lot of modern USB to ethernet adapters, including many that are sold as "Docks".
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 08, 2023, 03:56:13 pm
Hello

What is the solution for a laptop without ethernet port to get the wireless working?
- USB to ethernet first and later one of this routers or "Ethernet to Wifi" adapter?

Regards

If you have USB 12.14 installed, have a look at the USBASIX network driver. It seems to support a lot of modern USB to ethernet adapters, including many that are sold as "Docks".

ok...ok... ok... I had been living under a stone.
- https://www.arcanoae.com/wp-content/uploads/wiki/ReadMe-USBASIX.txt

Thanks for letting me know about this Neil.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 08, 2023, 05:29:13 pm
Hi All

Regarding whether CSM should be on in the BIOS:

I have just purchased a system with a MSI B450M PRO-VDH MAX mainboard and found that I cannot boot from SATA attached DVD unless CSM support is Enabled.

The boot options without CSM enabled includes UEFI CD/DVD

With CSM enabled the boot options include both UEFI CD/DVD and CD/DVD

I wonder how many other mainboards have the same setup? - Guess those who installed from USB stick would not have run into this.


Yes, Martin, once I actually install 5.1 I will submit the PCI report - may not be for a week as awaiting an NVMe drive at the moment  :-)


Regards

Pete





Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 09, 2023, 02:17:54 am
Hi All

My new system box has a 128Gb SSD with Windows11 installed.

Being aware that Windows can install files in hidden partitions I booted the system using DFSee - how I discovered that CSM needs to be Enabled to boot from CD/DVD on this system - and found the following partitions:-


/dev/sda                                      GPT disk 1

ID     ux     Dr                       Type, description                                                      Format                          Size (Mb)

01                                         Fsp + GPT             hdr/pta                                      -------------                            1.00

01      1                                 EFI System  (ESP)                                                    FAT32                           100.00

02      2                                 MS Reserved (MSR)                                                                                          16.00

03      3     C:                        Windows Basic Data                                                NTFS                       121375.00

04      4                                 Windows Recovery                                                   NTFS                              611.00

05      5                                 Fsp + GPT              pta/hdr                                      -------------                              1.30



I have a 1Tb NVMe arriving in the near future and plan on removing the 128Gb SSD.

The question is: Do I reinstall Windows11 or copy existing install from the 128Gb SSD using DFSee?

Also, What creates the EFI System partition and the starting and finishing Fsp + GPT partitions - or should I copy those as well as the Windows partitions?


Thanks for any/all advice

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on September 09, 2023, 06:31:11 am
I booted the system using DFSee - how I discovered that CSM needs to be Enabled to boot from CD/DVD on this system

It sounds like you and a bunch of other people are about to run into all sorts of avoidable problems for lack of some basic info.

First... there is no such thing as a "UEFI CD/DVD" or a "[CSM] CD/DVD", there are only UEFI and CSM *bootloaders*. The menu gives you a choice of which one you want to use on the mounted optical disk. If the DFSee disk you burned doesn't include a UEFI bootloader (not your doing), then it won't boot in UEFI mode and you'll be forced to use the CSM bootloader that it does have. Had you tried booting an AOS5.1 DVD, its very likely you wouldn't have encountered this problem since it contains both.

Next... TTBOMK, DFSee has never been updated to fully support ArcaOS's GPT implementation. In its current state, DFSee can read and write the entire disk *except* for the partition tables which it can only _read_. Without additional code that talks to the GPT driver (GPT.FLT) and coordinates its activity with LVM, it can not be used as an OS/2 GPT partition editor. You can still use it's other features such as creating partition images or copying them to a new partition, but in the latter case that new partition will have to be created by MiniLVM.

Quote
Do I reinstall Windows11 or copy existing install from the 128Gb SSD using DFSee?

Good question :)  Do you have a Win11 DVD or is this a preinstalled system? If you have an install disk, then do a new install to the NVME drive, letting Win create the ESP (EFI System partition). After it is up and running, then install 5.1 (it isn't at all fussy, as Martin discovered).

Be aware that the issue of Secure Boot will come up during installation. My impression is that if you decline it, your system will be "disadvantaged" in some way (you'll have to check the MS docs to see if this is really the case). If you opt for it, you'll have to register AN's Secure Boot key with your system for the two to coexist. (Doing so manually is pretty easy on a desktop system and likely impossible on a laptop. There's a yet-to-be-released utility that will make it fairly easy on any type of system.)

OTOH, if you have to copy the partitions to the new drive, you're going to need a lot of in-depth knowledge of how Win navigates a GPT drive and how to use 'bcdedit' (or whatever may have replaced it). I'd suggest an exhaustive search on the topic of moving Win11 from one drive to another (it ain't easy!).

Quote
What creates the EFI System partition and the starting and finishing Fsp + GPT partitions

Typically, the util that lays out the disk creates the partition tables and headers, while the OS installer will create the ESP if needed. In AOS 5.1, use the two options on MiniLVM's 'System' menu to create the ESP. It's very likely that your NVME will come formatted as GPT but probably without an ESP.

Quote
should I copy those as well as the Windows partitions?

God forbid! Happily, no self-respecting tool would let you.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on September 09, 2023, 06:45:47 am
I booted the system using DFSee - how I discovered that CSM needs to be Enabled to boot from CD/DVD on this system

It sounds like you and a bunch of other people are about to run into all sorts of avoidable problems for lack of some basic info.

First... there is no such thing as a "UEFI CD/DVD" or a "[CSM] CD/DVD", there are only UEFI and CSM *bootloaders*. The menu gives you a choice of which one you want to use on the mounted optical disk. If the DFSee disk you burned doesn't include a UEFI bootloader (not your doing), then it won't boot in UEFI mode and you'll be forced to use the CSM bootloader that it does have. Had you tried booting an AOS5.1 DVD, its very likely you wouldn't have encountered this problem since it contains both.

My understanding is that on some systems, in UEFI mode,some hardware is left to the OS to init, unlike CSM mode where the BIOS takes care of initializing the hardware, the CD/DVD in this case and is the reason that leaving CSM enabled is recommended, though it varies on the system.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on September 09, 2023, 07:36:07 am
My understanding is that on some systems, in UEFI mode,some hardware is left to the OS to init, unlike CSM mode where the BIOS takes care of initializing the hardware, the CD/DVD in this case and is the reason that leaving CSM enabled is recommended, though it varies on the system.

Your logic has a big hole in it. How can the machine rely on an OS to initialize the CD/DVD when it needs to use the CD/DVD to boot that OS? What you say may be true for non-boot components (it would be nice to know which and on what machines) but it seems highly unlikely in this case (short of a major bug in the firmware). As I mentioned, Peter can confirm this by booting a DVD known to have a UEFI bootloader.

FWIW... dfsee.com says its bootable CD uses "Free DOS" to boot (clearly CSM based) and makes no mention of UEFI.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 09, 2023, 04:42:53 pm
Hi All

My new system box has a 128Gb SSD with Windows11 installed.

Being aware that Windows can install files in hidden partitions I booted the system using DFSee - how I discovered that CSM needs to be Enabled to boot from CD/DVD on this system - and found the following partitions:-


/dev/sda                                      GPT disk 1

ID     ux     Dr                       Type, description                                                      Format                          Size (Mb)

01                                         Fsp + GPT             hdr/pta                                      -------------                            1.00

01      1                                 EFI System  (ESP)                                                    FAT32                           100.00

02      2                                 MS Reserved (MSR)                                                                                          16.00

03      3     C:                        Windows Basic Data                                                NTFS                       121375.00

04      4                                 Windows Recovery                                                   NTFS                              611.00

05      5                                 Fsp + GPT              pta/hdr                                      -------------                              1.30



I have a 1Tb NVMe arriving in the near future and plan on removing the 128Gb SSD.

The question is: Do I reinstall Windows11 or copy existing install from the 128Gb SSD using DFSee?

Also, What creates the EFI System partition and the starting and finishing Fsp + GPT partitions - or should I copy those as well as the Windows partitions?


Thanks for any/all advice

Pete

While you could use Dfsee, if you windows 10/11 install has no data on it you can do two things.
Make the Windows disc smaller:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/overview-of-disk-management
With a GPT disc layout a breeze!
Do not use this tool on a MBR disc layout....

To reinstall Windows 10 or 11 recover the Windows registration key.
Forgot about Vendor ISO's. If you want to get all the preload garbage from your PC vendor out.
On www.google.com search for windows 11 media creation tool
This tool also exists  for Windows 10,
You can make an ISO file or a bootable USB stick for Windows 10 or Windows 11.

Roderick



Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 09, 2023, 11:11:46 pm
Hi

Thanks to Rich and Roderick for their responses.

I suspected the UEFI CD/DVD boot option would need a UEFI boot related file on the CD/DVD in use.

I'm currently downloading the Win11 ISO to perform new installs of Win11, along with ArcaOS5.1, on the NVMe drive - when it arrives.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 09, 2023, 11:38:00 pm
Hi

Thanks to Rich and Roderick for their responses.0

I suspected the UEFI CD/DVD boot option would need a UEFI boot related file on the CD/DVD in use.

I'm currently downloading the Win11 ISO to perform new installs of Win11, along with ArcaOS5.1, on the NVMe drive - when it arrives.


Regards

Pete

The ArcaOS ISO file is in the end the same as a Windows ISO.
For boot from DVD an IMG partition image is located inside  the ISO. The UEFI  firmware scans the DVD at a preset point and that is where it loads the ArcaOS UEFI loader.

The USB stick and ISO are hybrid bode.

So they can boot in UEFI mode and BIOS mode.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 11, 2023, 02:13:10 am
Hi All

The NVME drive arrived yesterday - Sunday, so guess delivery company is working overtime.

Having installed NVMe I disconnected the existing 128Gb SSD and tried an install to a clean unused NMVe.
Failure - I notice during boot that there was a message that the GPT Filter was not loaded - or very similar and the attempted install finished with a SYS 03176 after the call to pmshell.exe appeared onscreen.

After a couple of attempts to install or boot to a Maintenance Desktop all ending the same as above I tried booting to a command line - that worked but was not much use to me. However it does suggest a possible graphics problem - I suspect the hang is at the point where the system should switch from text mode to graphical.


Gave up and installed Windows 11 without any problem.


After the Windows install I retried installing ArcaOS 5.1 which failed as previously however I did notice that the GPT driver got installed this time. Could that be because Windows 11 had created some partitions on the drive?


Time to write a(some) bug report(s) for AN


Regards

Pete



Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 11, 2023, 05:26:31 am
Hi All

I re-checked the state of CSM in the BIOS and found that support was Off - think it got reset when I did a BIOS update.

Having enabled CSM booting worked - but installation failed, the lcu.l1 log shows:-

Mon Sep 11 01:45:30] Product Returned 0x00FF, Unexpected condition.
[Mon Sep 11 01:45:30] Base Resources install failed.

The lcu.l2 log is empty

The DIALOG.L2 log starts with lots of these

SYS1041: The name * is not recognized as an
internal or external command, operable program or batch file.


Guess something needs tweaking in the install routine(s)...


Will report back when/if the problem(s) get resolved.


Regards

Pete

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on September 11, 2023, 06:47:11 am
After the Windows install I retried installing ArcaOS 5.1 which failed as previously however I did notice that the GPT driver got installed this time. Could that be because Windows 11 had created some partitions on the drive?

Yes. Your drive was probably blank without any partitioning scheme in place. Since there weren't any GPT disks to be found, gpt.flt unloaded itself. OTOH, Windows recognized the situation and created the GPT infrastructure and ESP that AOS used subsequently.

While I was with AN, I wrote a util to create a GPT disk from a blank or MBR disk but it wasn't included in 5.1. I don't see an alternative in the distro, so people may have to use Windows or Linux for that task.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 12, 2023, 12:58:10 am
Hi

[
While I was with AN, I wrote a util to create a GPT disk from a blank or MBR disk but it wasn't included in 5.1. I don't see an alternative in the distro, so people may have to use Windows or Linux for that task.


AN's response is

"If no partition table exists, the ArcaOS installer will automatically create the
table as selected in the Installation Volume Manager during installation (it is
entirely possible to create an MBR table or GPT without the filter being
loaded)."

So, good to know.


In the meantime I managed to get to the end of Phase1 by de-selecting Dynamic Icons - the only change from previous attempts at install.

Not much help though as the reboot started Windows 11 instead of Phase2 of the install.

Checking the BIOS boot order I found AN Launcher and selected the install partition, boot started and stopped fairly quickly showing os2lvm.dmd on screen and the "OS/2 cannot operate your hard disk..." message.

Not sure where to go from there... all partitions look good in miniLVM, chkdsk does not report any problems.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on September 12, 2023, 11:19:59 pm
"If no partition table exists, the ArcaOS installer will automatically create the
table as selected in the Installation Volume Manager during installation [...]"

So, good to know.

Perhaps they're using the DFSee runtime to handle the GPT layout (pure speculation).

FWIW...  'x:\sys\install\EspUtil.exe' is the pgm that formats and populates the ESP. It has plenty of options for DIY'ers but nothing I saw to do repartitioning.

Quote
Checking the BIOS boot order I found AN Launcher and selected the install partition, boot started and stopped fairly quickly showing os2lvm.dmd on screen and the "OS/2 cannot operate your hard disk..." message.

Not sure where to go from there... all partitions look good in miniLVM, chkdsk does not report any problems.

If the system can't match the boot drive to a letter, you'll get that error. So, just to confirm,,, when booted into the installer and running MiniLVM, does the target (install) drive have the expected letter? Does that match the boot drive referenced in the target's 'config.sys'?

Next, is everything (ESP and boot partition) on the same drive? When split across drives there's a chance that the disk numbering is changing during bootup. Ensure that the machine considers the disk with the ESP to be Drive 1 (i.e. the first in its list of hard drives).

BTW... having the bootup hang after the first reboot, just as it's about to go graphical, has happened to me many times. This could just be voodoo, but in at least some cases the target drive's 'os2.ini' was still marked read-only. Resetting that flag then rebooting seemed to get the install going again. Take this with a grain of salt...
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 13, 2023, 03:27:14 am
Hi All

Finally, on the umpteenth attempt, got to a fully installed system - had to de-select both extended workplace and dynamic icons to get to the end of phase1.

Now comes the hard part: throwing away the unwanted bits that get installed, editing config.sys to get rid of unneeded lines and installing some useful software.

Wonder if Dooble will work better/longer on this system?...


Regards

Pete







Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 13, 2023, 05:40:37 am
Hi All

Having installed IBM File and Print I find I cannot start User Accounts using the User name that works to logon to Workgroup because:-

The user ID 'PETER' is not defined locally/...'

Cannot modify Network User Account and add a password for the same reason.

Looks like an install cockup.

So, how to connect this system to the network and actually transfer files around?


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 13, 2023, 02:54:05 pm
Hi

[
While I was with AN, I wrote a util to create a GPT disk from a blank or MBR disk but it wasn't included in 5.1. I don't see an alternative in the distro, so people may have to use Windows or Linux for that task.


AN's response is

"If no partition table exists, the ArcaOS installer will automatically create the
table as selected in the Installation Volume Manager during installation (it is
entirely possible to create an MBR table or GPT without the filter being
loaded)."

So, good to know.


In the meantime I managed to get to the end of Phase1 by de-selecting Dynamic Icons - the only change from previous attempts at install.

Not much help though as the reboot started Windows 11 instead of Phase2 of the install.

Checking the BIOS boot order I found AN Launcher and selected the install partition, boot started and stopped fairly quickly showing os2lvm.dmd on screen and the "OS/2 cannot operate your hard disk..." message.

Not sure where to go from there... all partitions look good in miniLVM, chkdsk does not report any problems.


Regards

Pete

If the disc is bigger then 2 TB  then when booted from install media you can use initdisk.exe. But this should only be used on empty discs.
If the disc is smaller then 2TB and its empty the discutil will ask you if you want a GPT or MBR dsc layout.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 13, 2023, 02:59:22 pm
Hi All

I re-checked the state of CSM in the BIOS and found that support was Off - think it got reset when I did a BIOS update.

Having enabled CSM booting worked - but installation failed, the lcu.l1 log shows:-

Mon Sep 11 01:45:30] Product Returned 0x00FF, Unexpected condition.
[Mon Sep 11 01:45:30] Base Resources install failed.

The lcu.l2 log is empty

The DIALOG.L2 log starts with lots of these

SYS1041: The name * is not recognized as an
internal or external command, operable program or batch file.


Guess something needs tweaking in the install routine(s)...


Will report back when/if the problem(s) get resolved.


Regards

Pete

Take into account when CSM boot next to UEFI boot is enabled that you need to be certain that you select the proper boot method. Because if a system can enable support for UEFI and CSM boot then the USB stick will be listed twice.

This could indicate issue with the bruned DVD or USB stick . Either use a different USB stick or burn the DVD at a lower speed. This type of issue's normaly indicates read error on the install media.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 13, 2023, 03:01:39 pm
Hi All

Having installed IBM File and Print I find I cannot start User Accounts using the User name that works to logon to Workgroup because:-

The user ID 'PETER' is not defined locally/...'

Cannot modify Network User Account and add a password for the same reason.

Looks like an install cockup.

So, how to connect this system to the network and actually transfer files around?


Regards

Pete

You installed the file and print client. Why do you assume the username Peter is present ?
As local admin login with userid userid and password password. Then you can create a username after you have logged in.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on September 13, 2023, 04:09:57 pm
Hi Roderick

The username PETER is present simply because that is the username entered during installation - no password was asked for at that time.

Thank You, the USERID/PASSWORD combination was what was required, have created new users and can login with the logon set to use /V:LOCAL


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on September 17, 2023, 08:31:21 pm
Now that I have used it for awhile, I can actually say it boots faster, shuts down faster, usb connection is faster, and the system is more stable.  Win-OS2 sessions and DOS window sessions still hang system.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 18, 2023, 02:57:43 am
Hi David
Now that I have used it for awhile, I can actually say it boots faster, shuts down faster, usb connection is faster, and the system is more stable.  Win-OS2 sessions and DOS window sessions still hang system.

Which hardware are you using? did you install ArcaOS 5.1 with UEFI enabled or normal CSM/BIOS configuration?

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on September 18, 2023, 04:26:01 pm
Hi David
Now that I have used it for awhile, I can actually say it boots faster, shuts down faster, usb connection is faster, and the system is more stable.  Win-OS2 sessions and DOS window sessions still hang system.

Which hardware are you using? did you install ArcaOS 5.1 with UEFI enabled or normal CSM/BIOS configuration?

Regards

normal CSM/BIOS configuration.  This is an older Thinkpas.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on September 18, 2023, 07:17:41 pm
Hi David
Now that I have used it for awhile, I can actually say it boots faster, shuts down faster, usb connection is faster, and the system is more stable.  Win-OS2 sessions and DOS window sessions still hang system.

Which hardware are you using? did you install ArcaOS 5.1 with UEFI enabled or normal CSM/BIOS configuration?

Regards

normal CSM/BIOS configuration.  This is an older Thinkpas.

Hi David

I see, in that case there should be no improvement on DOS-WinOS2 Sessions.
You may already know about it, but I have to ask, did you used the viop patch/workarround in the past?
- https://mantis.arcanoae.com/view.php?id=1193
In my old Thinkpad L420 (non UEFI) machine it worked for me to fix the DOS session, but it is possible that my issue was different.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on September 18, 2023, 10:26:21 pm
I downloaded the viop.sys and full screens work now, but not the window sessions as before.  Surprised this was not added to 5.1.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on September 19, 2023, 11:26:52 am
VOIP.SYS was only made for limited amount of Thinkpads that had an issue with the VDM.
That the DOS windows does not work is known. You need UEFI boot for this.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on December 31, 2023, 04:09:15 pm
I just installed arcaos5.1 from scratch, I was very disappointed, it was hanging without any other application open.
But I remembered that I had a copy of 508, and checking things I found this in :

C:\MPTN\ETC\acpid.cfg

and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

If anyone wants to try it.

I am experimenting with other values, and with 0.3125 and 125 , I have 8 processors with less than 25% evenly distributed all, 6 taps open, a youtube video in the background, with Dooble 632. Interesting.
Sorry, modyfy 0.03125 and 125
Saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on December 31, 2023, 10:52:58 pm
I just installed arcaos5.1 from scratch, I was very disappointed, it was hanging without any other application open.
But I remembered that I had a copy of 508, and checking things I found this in :

C:\MPTN\ETC\acpid.cfg

and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

If anyone wants to try it.

I am experimenting with other values, and with 0.3125 and 125 , I have 8 processors with less than 25% evenly distributed all, 6 taps open, a youtube video in the background, with Dooble 632. Interesting.
Sorry, modyfy 0.03125 and 125
Saludos

Best wishes Roberto for 2024. But your postings has 0 info with which we could even start to help you..;
But please just do not try just as a short in the dark.  That is what you are doing.
I would strongly recommend not changing these settings...  Why I have not seen ANYBODY ever changing these settings.

Did you disable hyperthreading ? Can you upload a testlog generic ?

Best regards,

Roderick Klein
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 01, 2024, 12:49:15 pm
But please just do not try just as a short in the dark.  That is what you are doing.
Can you rewrite this line? I don,t undertand it.
Quote
I would strongly recommend not changing these settings...  Why I have not seen ANYBODY ever changing these settings.
Stability increases me and the system improves. Are you suggesting that I don't modify anything, and that 50% of the startups fail with a system crash?
Quote
Did you disable hyperthreading ? Can you upload a testlog generic ?
From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.
What I have seen in some Bios, is that they have an option to select Legacy mode, or Modern hardware option.
In legacy mode, the dbexpert works perfect, but a lot of programs do not even open, Lucide...., in Modern hardware is more compatible with all programs, but the dbexpert sometimes closes unexpectedly.
I attach a generic testlog
Saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 01, 2024, 02:47:14 pm
Hello Roberto

From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.

On my case, on the Thinkpad T14s 1st Gen, when I got "hyperthreading ON", I started to get boot freezes with ArcaOS 5.1. Once I disabled it, I was able to get ArcaOS working. Do you see any difference when you turn it off? do you want to try for a few days and see if there is any difference?

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on January 01, 2024, 03:16:55 pm
But please just do not try just as a short in the dark.  That is what you are doing.
Can you rewrite this line? I don,t undertand it.
Quote
I would strongly recommend not changing these settings...  Why I have not seen ANYBODY ever changing these settings.
Stability increases me and the system improves. Are you suggesting that I don't modify anything, and that 50% of the startups fail with a system crash?
Quote
Did you disable hyperthreading ? Can you upload a testlog generic ?
From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.
What I have seen in some Bios, is that they have an option to select Legacy mode, or Modern hardware option.
In legacy mode, the dbexpert works perfect, but a lot of programs do not even open, Lucide...., in Modern hardware is more compatible with all programs, but the dbexpert sometimes closes unexpectedly.
I attach a generic testlog
Saludos

I mean it comes across as if you are just taking a gamble. As I typed I have never seen anybody else change the settings you just mentioned.
What do you base it on it fixes your system ? You are most likely changing the timing and you get lucky.
If you consider that a fix, well its work around...

Did you notice that your system did install (phase 1 and phase 2). There is reason this works..
Because the PSD runs with /MAXCPU=1. There is only one CPU core active when the installer runs...

Look its a free world. But all information indicates switching on hyperthreading with OS/2 is simply not recommended.
Its already known for years that supporting hyperthreading would require kernel changes. The testlog you send states:

More CPUs (8) than cores (4) detected.
HyperThreading/SMT can cause problems for OS/2 systems.

*** This system has a configuration that may cause system problems and may make
*** it difficult or impossible to provide support.

It might run better is your experience. But you are going against the advise of David from A.N. who did most of the work on the ACPI.PSD.
Again its a free world but hyperthreading in genereal is not recommended with OS/2.

It seems hyperthreading on OS/2 on modern systems seem to work, but the cause is unknown.  In the past we have seen systems hang at the bootlogo or when PM comes up, or just freeze while the system is running.
Hence the genereal recommendation turn off hyperthreading.

Now do you use startup.cmd or the startup folder to start any programs ?

I would recommend for now to keep the virtualaddresslimit set to 2048 and not 3072.

One other thing I noticed (which I can not explain) is this:
----- Contents of file: C:\var\log\xwptrap.log ---------------------------------
*** Excessive file size truncated. Showing the last 20000 bytes. ***
                               
    0065F940: 0065F624  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
                               
    0065F150: 0065F4C4  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
                                 
    0065F940: 0065F624  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
                                 
    0065F150: 0065F4C4  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
                                 
    0065F940: 0065F624  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
                                 
    0065F150: 0065F4C4  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF

Look we are more then willing to help you, but please provide more information. You write an email that you are not happy with 5.1.0. Then state you modified a setting and that seems to make it work... But little to no information what you did to your system after install

Do a new install either UEFI or legacy and make a small log what you modify on the system.
And please answer this question:
Now do you use startup.cmd or the startup folder to start any programs ?|

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on January 01, 2024, 03:18:13 pm
Hello Roberto

From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.

On my case, on the Thinkpad T14s 1st Gen, when I got "hyperthreading ON", I started to get boot freezes with ArcaOS 5.1. Once I disabled it, I was able to get ArcaOS working. Do you see any difference when you turn it off? do you want to try for a few days and see if there is any difference?

Regards

You got the freezes during startup or when ArcaOS was loaded and you loaded a program ?

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 01, 2024, 03:25:43 pm
Hello Roberto

From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.

On my case, on the Thinkpad T14s 1st Gen, when I got "hyperthreading ON", I started to get boot freezes with ArcaOS 5.1. Once I disabled it, I was able to get ArcaOS working. Do you see any difference when you turn it off? do you want to try for a few days and see if there is any difference?

Regards

You got the freezes during startup or when ArcaOS was loaded and you loaded a program ?

Roderick

Hello Roderick

In my case, when I got the T14s, ArcaOS 5.1 USB flash will not boot. I got into the BIOS and disabled "Secure Boot". Now the ArcaOS USB booted but it will freeze on during boot, so I did the second recommendation, to "Disable Hyperthreading" and I was able to install ArcaOS 5.1.

Now, because of this chat, I made a quick test, I enabled Hyper-threading now that ArcaOS is installed and it booted. But it is too early yet for me to say if that is stable or not. I will report back if I get any problem.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 01, 2024, 05:15:38 pm
On my case, on the Thinkpad T14s 1st Gen, when I got "hyperthreading ON", I started to get boot freezes with ArcaOS 5.1. Once I disabled it, I was able to get ArcaOS working. Do you see any difference when you turn it off? do you want to try for a few days and see if there is any difference?
I tested it for months, with arcaos508, and it’s the same, but slower. Until one day I realized a difference. With 4 processors could not open https://html5test.com and with 8 if it could.
saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 01, 2024, 07:27:56 pm
Now do you use startup.cmd or the startup folder to start any programs ?
Yes, I'm attaching a photo of the startup.cmd
Quote
I would recommend for now to keep the virtualaddresslimit set to 2048 and not 3072.
I have to try it.
Quote
One other thing I noticed (which I can not explain) is this:
----- Contents of file: C:\var\log\xwptrap.log ---------------------------------
*** Excessive file size truncated. Showing the last 20000 bytes. ***
                               
    0065F940: 0065F624  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
         
       yes, you're right, I've never seen it             

 saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 01, 2024, 07:36:27 pm
You got the freezes during startup or when ArcaOS was loaded and you loaded a program ?
In both cases, it sometimes hung on the boot. And other times it would hang during use with other apps open. Now it doesn't hang.

Small log after install the system:
Modify the virtualadrres to 3072, previus 1536
Modify the screen, from 1920x1080 16M   to   1920x1080 64k
Modify the screen, from previous video in memory   to   NO previous. (more memory for me), but I can not move windows well.
I can really live without moving windows

Saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on January 01, 2024, 08:07:03 pm
Now do you use startup.cmd or the startup folder to start any programs ?
Yes, I'm attaching a photo of the startup.cmd
Quote
I would recommend for now to keep the virtualaddresslimit set to 2048 and not 3072.
I have to try it.
Quote
One other thing I noticed (which I can not explain) is this:
----- Contents of file: C:\var\log\xwptrap.log ---------------------------------
*** Excessive file size truncated. Showing the last 20000 bytes. ***
                               
    0065F940: 0065F624  PMMERGE  00:FFFFFFFF
         
       yes, you're right, I've never seen it             

 saludos

That is the startup folder. I need the file startup.cmd if you are using it.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 01, 2024, 08:24:08 pm
No, I don't have startup.cmd in my system. I only use the startup folther
saludos
modify: attach the xwptrap.log
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on January 01, 2024, 10:57:16 pm
Roberto!!!

Happy New Year to you sir...let's see what's going on here:

.. checking things I found this in :

C:\MPTN\ETC\acpid.cfg

Alright...so one thing to start off with: consider turning ON the LOGs, in the same acpid.cfg file, at the very top you have the following section:

Code: [Select]
;############## General Deamon Settings ##################################
[ACPID]
; LogFile: Where to write the log file, full path, default=No log file
LogFile = G:\tmp\log\acpidaemon.log

; AcpiLog: Where to write the acpica$ log file, full path, default=don't create
AcpiLog = G:\tmp\log\AcpiCA.log

; ConfigCheckInterval: Delay in seconds between checking for config file changes, default=10
;ConfigCheckInterval = 10
...

The values above reflect my system config, so adjust accordingly. Point being, the acpidaemon.log & acpiCA.log files will have a LOT of useful info to look at.

Now let's look at the control values you were using:

...and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

OK, so what exactly do these two settings do?

The ACPI daemon uses the CheckInterval as the frequency (in seconds) of checking the CPU Load & Temperature, further on, it uses the IdleCount value as the number of times the CPU Load & Temperature will be checked to determine if the system is experiencing a no-load situation, namely it appears to be in IDLE state.

From the ACPI perspective that would indicate that the CPU status can now be adjusted (and most likely set as INACTIVE) in order to lower the power consumption, which for battery operated machines is what matters!

The 'Power Manager Settings' section of the ACPI documentation (INF) file does a nice job of explaining this in pretty good details. The key take away here is that the recommendation is NOT to use CPU THROTTLING (which can be set in the [PreferredMode] section, if you have a specific reason to try a particular value).

OK, so this is all theory...how about Real-World???

Well, in my case the machine being a 24x7 box that's using a steady power supply I simply shut OFF the PowerMan function entirely because I found the control logic to be unsuitable for my purposes: CPU cores would constantly go off-line (to avoid power usage) and the time it took for them to spool back up (when the usage demanded it) took too long (regardless of how aggressive of the settings combination I would use).

So the advice I would give you is as follows: FOR TESTING PURPOSES ONLY, disable PowerMan, reboot and see what's going on.

To disable PowerMan you make the following adjustment:

Code: [Select]
;############## Power Manager Settings ###################################
[PowerMan]

; Enable: 1=enabled, 0=disabled, default=1
Enable = 0

Notice how I set 'Enable = 0', which disables it.

Test it out, if this addresses your issue and your BIOS does not report crazy CPU Temps, than you always have to option to simply NOT use PowerMan.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 02, 2024, 12:17:55 am
Hello Roberto

From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.

On my case, on the Thinkpad T14s 1st Gen, when I got "hyperthreading ON", I started to get boot freezes with ArcaOS 5.1. Once I disabled it, I was able to get ArcaOS working. Do you see any difference when you turn it off? do you want to try for a few days and see if there is any difference?

Regards

You got the freezes during startup or when ArcaOS was loaded and you loaded a program ?

Roderick

Hello Roderick

In my case, when I got the T14s, ArcaOS 5.1 USB flash will not boot. I got into the BIOS and disabled "Secure Boot". Now the ArcaOS USB booted but it will freeze on during boot, so I did the second recommendation, to "Disable Hyperthreading" and I was able to install ArcaOS 5.1.

Now, because of this chat, I made a quick test, I enabled Hyper-threading now that ArcaOS is installed and it booted. But it is too early yet for me to say if that is stable or not. I will report back if I get any problem.

Regards

Hello, by turning on Hyper-Threading on my T14s (1st gen) I had experienced with ArcaOS 5.1 (UEFI).
1) I see 8 processors now the CPU meter widget.
2) Sudden computer/desktop freeze, mouse keep working, clock stops and no Ctrl+Alt+Del works.  I can not tell exactly when it happens, sometimes is like 4 minutes before reboot and sometime 10 minutes. I had three freeze for what I had used the T14s today. Usually when I run Firefox for a while.
3) Sometimes boot fails and freezes on the ArcaOS 5.1 logo.

In my case I prefer to turn off Hyper-Threading for the moment.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on January 02, 2024, 01:02:34 am
Hello Roberto

From what I have seen, some computers work better with hyperthreading ON, and others work better OFF. For me that is a myth.

On my case, on the Thinkpad T14s 1st Gen, when I got "hyperthreading ON", I started to get boot freezes with ArcaOS 5.1. Once I disabled it, I was able to get ArcaOS working. Do you see any difference when you turn it off? do you want to try for a few days and see if there is any difference?

Regards

You got the freezes during startup or when ArcaOS was loaded and you loaded a program ?

Roderick

Hello Roderick

In my case, when I got the T14s, ArcaOS 5.1 USB flash will not boot. I got into the BIOS and disabled "Secure Boot". Now the ArcaOS USB booted but it will freeze on during boot, so I did the second recommendation, to "Disable Hyperthreading" and I was able to install ArcaOS 5.1.

Now, because of this chat, I made a quick test, I enabled Hyper-threading now that ArcaOS is installed and it booted. But it is too early yet for me to say if that is stable or not. I will report back if I get any problem.

Regards

Hello, by turning on Hyper-Threading on my T14s (1st gen) I had experienced with ArcaOS 5.1 (UEFI).
1) I see 8 processors now the CPU meter widget.
2) Sudden computer/desktop freeze, mouse keep working, clock stops and no Ctrl+Alt+Del works.  I can not tell exactly when it happens, sometimes is like 4 minutes before reboot and sometime 10 minutes. I had three freeze for what I had used the T14s today. Usually when I run Firefox for a while.
3) Sometimes boot fails and freezes on the ArcaOS 5.1 logo.

In my case I prefer to turn off Hyper-Threading for the moment.

Regards

While you can experiment  with hyper-threading. Just understand that the base code of OS/2 is simply not designed to run of CPU's that has hyperthreading swithed on.
Other people can correct me if I explain this wrong. But also compilers or at least the code has be written to get a performance gain from hyperthreading.
You see when you get 8 CPU's Robert you only get to extend 4 half complete CPU's cores. 
Its possible even that OS/2 can even run SLOWER with hyperthreadubg switched on. Read this wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-threading

Put simple enabling hyper-threading does not add 4 full CPU cores. So a high number of cores is not better with hyper threading from a performance viewpoint.
Hence the recommendation to simply turn hyper threading off where possible. Apart from the possible performance hit, it can also add stability issue's on OS/2 and ArcaOS.

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on January 02, 2024, 01:52:47 am
Hi All

I have yet to discover how to turn off Hyper Threading with my MSI B450PRO mainboard / AMD Ryzen5 cpu - 6 cores but 12 "processors" reported by system POST.

Possibly I need to run Windows, install some AMD cpu control software...

Anyway, since installing 5.1.0 a few months back (early September) the only system freezes I get are when using Dooble (QT5) and that, from what I can gather in other discussions about Dooble, is likely caused by the qt code - and Dooble behaves exactly the same on an AMD FX4300 based system which most definitely does not have hyper threading.


My conclusion: AMD and Intel Hyper Threading seem to differ slightly and it could be worth trying Hyper Threading on AMD cpu based systems.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 02, 2024, 05:06:34 am
Hi Pete
Anyway, since installing 5.1.0 a few months back (early September) the only system freezes I get are when using Dooble (QT5) and that, from what I can gather in other discussions about Dooble, is likely caused by the qt code - and Dooble behaves exactly the same on an AMD FX4300 based system which most definitely does not have hyper threading.

By any chance is Firefox working fine? or does it also produce a freeze ?

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on January 02, 2024, 03:52:53 pm
Hi Martin

Seamonkey works fine, no system freezes so I would expect Firefox to also work without system freezes.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Joop on January 02, 2024, 05:12:21 pm
Totally frozen, Dutch will be available with version 5.2, but they didn't mentioned which sub version. So I don't know if the hardware will last that long, I'm afraid that this is  some kind of "goodbye". I have to wait at least for another year if not more. Also no translation requests received, so its firmly on the back-burner. Occasionally I startup the  OS/2 machine and I did find out that I lost already some skills. I'm typing this from a Raspberry Pi 400, with OS/2 its complicated to get online. So, a lot of promises, with version 5.0 its promised, but no delivery. Not good. I'm not sure if I'm willing to translate with this knowledge.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 02, 2024, 06:16:19 pm
Hi All

I have yet to discover how to turn off Hyper Threading with my MSI B450PRO mainboard / AMD Ryzen5 cpu - 6 cores but 12 "processors" reported by system POST.

Possibly I need to run Windows, install some AMD cpu control software...

Anyway, since installing 5.1.0 a few months back (early September) the only system freezes I get are when using Dooble (QT5) and that, from what I can gather in other discussions about Dooble, is likely caused by the qt code - and Dooble behaves exactly the same on an AMD FX4300 based system which most definitely does not have hyper threading.


My conclusion: AMD and Intel Hyper Threading seem to differ slightly and it could be worth trying Hyper Threading on AMD cpu based systems.


Regards

Pete

On AMD, you turn off "Hyperthreading" ( or the equivalent thereof) by selecting "only one core per package". At least that's how it shows up on my old Bulldozer based system.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Doug Clark on January 02, 2024, 06:26:03 pm
I believe Hyperthreading is an Intel only feature - meaning it only appears on Intel CPUs.  If I understand it correctly Hyperthreading was/is a technology by Intel to provide some of the benefit of multiple cores without actually having all of the hardware of the multiple cores. To quote from wikipedia "Hyper-threading works by duplicating certain sections of the processor—those that store the architectural state—but not duplicating the main execution resources"

Since it is specific to some Intel CPUs you won't find a setting in the BIOS for AMD processors to turn it on or off.

I have heard for years, as Roderick says, that hyperthreading does not work well with OS/2 and should be turned off.  However, I have had some systems with an Intel Northbridge CPUs that supported hyperthreading and my systems appeared to run fine with Hyperthreading turned on. (I didn't know at the time it was supposed to be turned off.)  But I never did a comparison with hyperthreading turned on with it turned off, so I can't say whether it was faster or slower with Hyperthreading turned on.  And - after reading this thread - I just checked and realized that Hyperthreading is turned on on my Thinkpad T530i and has been ever since I purchased it.  Oops.  And I installed AOS 5.1 on that thinkpad, apparently, with Hyperthreading turned on.

Whether Hyperthreading speeds things up or not:  when AOS came out with mulitple processor support for SNAP I turned on the multiple processor support for my AMD 4350 CPU based system (which does not have Hyperthreading) and the Workplace Shell appeared to slow down in certain situations - even while applications like FireFox sped up.  Perhaps it was my imagination.  Or perhaps some software/applications work faster in a multiple processor environment and some do not.





Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on January 02, 2024, 07:06:38 pm
Hi Doug

Been hunting around and found that AMD doesn't have HyperThreading (HT), AMD's tech is called Simultaneous Multithreading (SMT).

SMT seems to do the same job as HT ...

Seems to work fine with ArcaOS here so will continue using it  :-)


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on January 02, 2024, 07:34:55 pm
Seems Ryzen's do do hyperthreading much like Intel. Here's a good overview, need to make the browser big to read with FF/SM as they don't handle the cookie notification, <url>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/74152562/what-is-the-difference-between-hyperthreading-and-multithreading-does-amd-zen-u</url> and more info on Ryzen's version, <url>https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/microarchitectures/zen#Simultaneous_MultiThreading_.28SMT.29</url>

Seems that the scheduler needs to be aware of hyperthreading to really take advantage of it, ours is pure SMP, with the S standing for symmetrical, all cores being equal.
Why it is unstable on OS/2, I'm not sure. It should be slower on a busy system, think of 2 threads running at close to a 100% and the scheduler puts both threads on one hyperthreaded core so 2 busy threads sharing one execution unit while 3 others are idle. On a lightly loaded system or with only one busy thread, things should be fine, though even then as Martin  found, it is not always the case, even with something like Firefox that mostly runs on one thread. Timing issues?
ACPI does support a CPU mask so Pete should be to only enable the real cores. Trick is figuring out how they're laid out. With luck every 2nd core being turned off would disable it.
Personally, I think 4 cores is generally enough on OS/2 and more cores being busy is likely to have memory problems. I see it with building where make allows multiple jobs, 3 almost always works, 4 usually but sometimes run out of memory errors or system lockups.
Everyone's usage patterns are different, so your mileage will vary and most programs seem to basically run on one thread, perhaps with other threads doing light duty.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Olafur Gunnlaugsson on January 02, 2024, 08:32:09 pm
I believe Hyperthreading is an Intel only feature - meaning it only appears on Intel CPUs.  If I understand it correctly Hyperthreading was/is a technology by Intel to provide some of the benefit of multiple cores without actually having all of the hardware of the multiple cores.

It is not an Intel only feature, it appeared originally on minicomputers specialised in database jobs and on some workstation/server chips, a number of the later SPARC chips have hyperthreading. The original idea is literally to speed up database jobs by having a parallel hardware threads packing inherently inefficient relational database code into something more efficiently executed on a normal CPU core, this gave you a 7 to 20% speedups in specialised tasks for for a 3% to 8% increase in transistor count. Intel originally introduced Hyperthreading on Xeons as an answer to Sun SPARC's with hyperthreading close to 20 years ago.

Even though current versions of HT are a bit more generic than the original designs they still have the same flaw, the code is packed out of order, and there is a slight unpredictable (fuzzy) delay in reordering it, not an issue in most cases, but for hard real time work such as some drivers and audio applications that get their timing reference from the soundcard rather than the CPU, this leads to hiccups. As an example on Windows, most professional audio programs that require a single timing reference (not all do) simply turn off HT via ACPI while they are running, turning it back on again when they exit.

SPARC server chips were not doing any hard real time work so this was never really an issue with them, however it became an issue as soon as Xeons came out since they were being used for real time audio and video work. I still turn HT off on my Intel machines regardless of OS due to past experiences with driver and app issues, and even on Windows I have never really found an application that takes advantage of HT to such a degree to make me consider turning it on again, but your milage may vary.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on January 03, 2024, 10:15:04 am
Totally frozen, Dutch will be available with version 5.2, but they didn't mentioned which sub version. So I don't know if the hardware will last that long, I'm afraid that this is  some kind of "goodbye". I have to wait at least for another year if not more. Also no translation requests received, so its firmly on the back-burner.[...] So, a lot of promises, with version 5.0 its promised, but no delivery. Not good. I'm not sure if I'm willing to translate with this knowledge.

If there's anyone to blame for this situation, it's your fellow countrymen.

For years I've been looking for a Dutch translator for XWP and haven't found one. For v1.0.14, I had to crowd-source my Dutch translations from people here on os2world. Sadly, they haven't been seen here since the pandemic, so I suspect they're no longer with us. So, who's left? If I can't get someone to translate 20-30 phrases every year or two, how can you expect AN to turn out something far, far larger? It seems unrealistic.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: ivan on January 03, 2024, 11:03:37 am
Nearly 30 years ago when I was doing business in Spain I had professional translators translate all our paperwork to Spanish and considered it a cost of doing business there.  You don't charge for XWP therefore you need volunteers to do the translation - Arca, on the other hand, is a business that sells a product world wide and therefore should consider translations as a cost of selling world wide.

Sorry, but that is how I see it.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on January 03, 2024, 11:35:06 am
when I was doing business in Spain I had professional translators translate all our paperwork to Spanish and considered it a cost of doing business there.

And if the cost of those professional translators were a multiple of the profits you could ever hope to make in Spain, would you have done business there? If your answer is no, then you've given AN all the justification it needs to _never_ release AOS in Dutch. It just isn't economic unless the translations are done pro bono.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 03, 2024, 12:15:37 pm
Hello, by turning on Hyper-Threading on my T14s (1st gen) I had experienced with ArcaOS 5.1 (UEFI).
1) I see 8 processors now the CPU meter widget.
2) Sudden computer/desktop freeze, mouse keep working, clock stops and no Ctrl+Alt+Del works.  I can not tell exactly when it happens, sometimes is like 4 minutes before reboot and sometime 10 minutes. I had three freeze for what I had used the T14s today. Usually when I run Firefox for a while.
3) Sometimes boot fails and freezes on the ArcaOS 5.1 logo.

In my case I prefer to turn off Hyper-Threading for the moment.

Regards

It's not only hyperthreading that is causing the problem. I have the same problem as you do but on my AMD system I had enabled "only one core per unit" which basically amounts to turning "hyperthreading" off.
What I discovered recently is that especially the WPS is prone to lockups of all sorts.

You can easily test for yourself: open TOP and look at how many threads the second instance of PMSHELL is running. Then, open a folder with many files and hit F5 ("Refresh") rapidly multiple times. Then switch over to TOP and have a look at how many threads have piled up for the second instance of PMSHELL.EXE.

That means, that somehow hitting "Refresh" always schedules a new thread for doing the refresh asynchronously in the background. I initially suspected it had something to do with XWorkplace so I disabled a couple of folder functions like "Turbo Folder" and "automatic refresh of folders" but it did not make a bit of a difference.
The refresh mechanism is obviously flawed by design as it will allow another triggering of refresh while a refresh is currently ongoing plus it schedules a new thread while it could continue to use the one that is already in existence. All these threads then seemingly block each other and on my system it can take up to a couple of minutes until they finally unravel (or the WPS hanging for good). All this refresh activity will not become a problem unless you decide to copy/delete or move files while all that refresh is going on. If you attempt to do that, the WPS will hang for the aforementioned number of minutes.

Finally "SMP" on OS/2 is not really "SMP" (any more). It used to be "SMP" with OS/2 2.1 SMP but then it was decided to route all interrupt activity to only CPU0 so that device drivers written for single core sytems would still continue to work (which by the way is also not always true if, for example, you are using context hooks). That clearly is a bottleneck because for example, you cannot use Intels capabilities to route an interrupt to the core that has least recently been used (load balancing in HW). I would not call that "SMP". "SMP" means that all processor cores are alike and that all cores perform the same activities (why do you think Intel has foreseen to route an interrupt to any of the existing cores ?).

What this all leads to is that the WPS is actually performing better if you have less CPU cores and not more.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on January 03, 2024, 04:05:21 pm
Hi Lars

Either F5 does not "Refresh" or doing so does not cause any problems with the Ryzen5 5600G with SMT enabled - TOP does not show any extra pmshell entries at all, just the usual 2 (WPS and Warpcenter). Possibly 300+ objects in a directory is not enough to cause the problem ...


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 03, 2024, 06:14:06 pm
-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server.

-Roderick
Finally, I have to admit that in OS/2 you can't use HT on. Causes memory problems, especially when The system is stressed, although it gives the sensation on specific occasions of working better. Apart from the possible security issue.
Saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 03, 2024, 09:20:29 pm
Hi Lars

Either F5 does not "Refresh" or doing so does not cause any problems with the Ryzen5 5600G with SMT enabled - TOP does not show any extra pmshell entries at all, just the usual 2 (WPS and Warpcenter). Possibly 300+ objects in a directory is not enough to cause the problem ...


Regards

Pete

I am not talking about additional pmshell instances. I am talking about the number of threads of the second pmshell instance.  In TOP, hit T and then use the arrow keys to select the second pmshell instance (the one with the larger PID), then hit Enter to get the list of threads of that process. Each F5 keypress will add a new thread.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on January 04, 2024, 12:29:25 am
Hi roberto,

-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what the FINAL values are?

Your thread posting I responded to is what I quoted in my response, but here it is as it appears right now:

Quote
and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

If anyone wants to try it.

I am experimenting with other values, and with 0.3125 and 125 , I have 8 processors with less than 25% evenly distributed all, 6 taps open, a youtube video in the background, with Dooble 632. Interesting.
Sorry, modyfy 0.03125 and 125

So what actually are you finding to be the MORE stable set of values than the above listed:
IdleCount = 0.3125
CheckInterval = 1.3125
?

Because the recommendation I made to shut OFF PowerMan were based on your conclusion that different values are improving things for you.

Either way, did you shut it OFF and if yes, what were the results (if any)?
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on January 04, 2024, 12:32:01 am
Hi roberto,

-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what the FINAL values are?

Your thread posting I responded to is what I quoted in my response, but here it is as it appears right now:

Quote
and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

If anyone wants to try it.

I am experimenting with other values, and with 0.3125 and 125 , I have 8 processors with less than 25% evenly distributed all, 6 taps open, a youtube video in the background, with Dooble 632. Interesting.
Sorry, modyfy 0.03125 and 125

So what actually are you finding to be the MORE stable set of values than the above listed:
IdleCount = 0.3125
CheckInterval = 1.3125
?

Because the recommendation I made to shut OFF PowerMan were based on your conclusion that different values are improving things for you.

Either way, did you shut it OFF and if yes, what were the results (if any)?

Here is BTW the bad news. The values that Robert entered in the CFG file do not matter. You can only enter integer numbers....

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Roderick Klein on January 04, 2024, 12:35:27 am
-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server.

-Roderick
Finally, I have to admit that in OS/2 you can't use HT on. Causes memory problems, especially when The system is stressed, although it gives the sensation on specific occasions of working better. Apart from the possible security issue.
Saludos

Also just serarch for hyperthreading on other platforms. Your millage maybe vary...

Roderick
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on January 04, 2024, 02:02:00 am
Hi Lars

No change in the number of threads (32) displayed after pressing/releasing F5 continually for around 15 seconds, 40 key presses.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Steven Levine on January 04, 2024, 02:45:15 am
I cannot replicate Lars' failure mode either.

If you want to use top to monitor threads, there is an easier way.

Use the Display menu to select Process Details so the thread count is always visible.  Use the Sort menu to sort by Name so that the process list does not change so much.  You might want to increase the refresh rate with Options ->
Refresh Rate.

Lars, when you say many, how many is many?  I tested with a folder containing 3000+ files.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on January 04, 2024, 04:12:47 am
Hi Roderik,

Here is BTW the bad news. The values that Robert entered in the CFG file do not matter. You can only enter integer numbers....

Not going to argue with you there as I do not know the logic PowerManager implements (I asked David A when I had opened the Ticket on the issue I was seeing, never got the answer to that question though).

Regardless, as I mentioned at the start of my original response, there is one way to tell and that is to turn on the LOG and see what's there:

Code: [Select]
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon ========== AcpiDaemon 3.23.16 Starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon Detected APM version 3.23
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon LID set to Do Nothing, PowerButton to Do Nothing
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon Log to screen:Off
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon NOTIFY: ========== Notify thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PWRBT: ========== Power Button thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PWRBT: Calling AcpiTkWaitPressButton
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon NOTIFY: Calling AcpiTkWaitNotify()
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PIPE: ========== Pipe thread is starting =================
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PM: ========== Power Manager thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PM: Enable=0 Verbose=1 CheckInterval=1000 PreferredMode=0 PMset=0
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PM: MaxTemp=85 OverTempPower=25 MaxAC=100 MaxBattery=50 MinPwr=15, DecAt=15 IncAt=25 AllAt=75 IdleCount=2
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon APM: ========== APM thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:22:10 AcpiDaemon PM: Number of controllable CPUs: 1 of 6 total CPUs

...problem solved, the above tells me exactly what PowerMan is doing with my settings.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 04, 2024, 04:15:55 pm
A small explanation, the most reliable, most compatible values, with old and new applications. For me it's 0.03125 and 125

For a year or so I've been using this setup on a test rig, 0.3125 and 1.3125 This setup is very stable, not problematic, not at all. But I've seen things that don't give me confidence. For example, I have the fc in the startup folder and it doesn't always start. It would start, but it would make me press a button OK.

An option that perhaps in the future could be interesting to consider, would be 0.03125 and 125000, but for today it is not reliable, and with old applications it fails.

About the PowerMan, =0, Under no circumstances does it show me the processors, The last line is this:
AcpiDaemon APM: ========== APM thread is starting ==========

Saludos

The real world is one thing, and the other is something else
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Pete on January 04, 2024, 08:18:03 pm
Hi All

Finally found the option to turn off HT - sorry, SMT in the MSI B450PRO mainboard BIOS.

I have to say there is not a lot of difference between SMT enabled and disabled... Seamonkey and OpenOffice apps seem to start a little quicker with SMT enabled... Dooble is still unstable, liable to hang the system... WPS seems to trundle along at about the same speed.

Just for a comparison: I dug an old system out of the cupboard, connected it up and powered it on. Slower bootup, WPS runs at close to the same speed as the Ryzen5, apps are a little slower to load. Old system is based on a Jetway 663AS Ultra with AMD XP2000+ cpu, 1Gb RAM and IDE disks running eCS2.1

I think Lars may be onto something when he states: "What this all leads to is that the WPS is actually performing better if you have less CPU cores and not more."


Regards

Pete






 
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 04, 2024, 09:07:04 pm
I cannot replicate Lars' failure mode either.

If you want to use top to monitor threads, there is an easier way.

Use the Display menu to select Process Details so the thread count is always visible.  Use the Sort menu to sort by Name so that the process list does not change so much.  You might want to increase the refresh rate with Options ->
Refresh Rate.

Lars, when you say many, how many is many?  I tested with a folder containing 3000+ files.

It's a folder with 362 Icon files. Hammering F5 with that folder opened, I see the second instance of PMSHELL running with 61 threads. And it clearly depends on how many times I press F5.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on January 05, 2024, 12:53:09 am
It's a folder with 362 Icon files.

Thanks for sharing that little detail. I was able to duplicate this easily once I knew what you were talking about (though I suspect they were actually PNG icons, not "icons"). Blame the MM classes...
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on January 05, 2024, 04:15:55 am
when I was doing business in Spain I had professional translators translate all our paperwork to Spanish and considered it a cost of doing business there.

And if the cost of those professional translators were a multiple of the profits you could ever hope to make in Spain, would you have done business there? If your answer is no, then you've given AN all the justification it needs to _never_ release AOS in Dutch. It just isn't economic unless the translations are done pro bono.

The apple iphones have translation software.  One can translate from English to Dutch is one so choses.

I am no programmer, but if it s matter of replacing English text with Dutch, I might possibly could do that using my iphone for the translations.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 05, 2024, 01:23:09 pm
It's a folder with 362 Icon files.

Thanks for sharing that little detail. I was able to duplicate this easily once I knew what you were talking about (though I suspect they were actually PNG icons, not "icons"). Blame the MM classes...

It's .ICO files of class WPIcon. That is not a subclass of any MM class. Also, I can open the /OS2 folder, hit F5 multiple times with the same effect.
The only thing that helps is to close the folder which will immediately terminate all those refresh threads.
Xworkplace's XFolder replaces the wpPopulate method. If at all, I would suspect this to be the culprit.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on January 05, 2024, 03:40:45 pm
Has anyone noticed the language viewer will not show when selected?

desktop > system setup > language viewer
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Dave Yeo on January 05, 2024, 06:06:40 pm
The apple iphones have translation software.  One can translate from English to Dutch is one so choses.

I am no programmer, but if it s matter of replacing English text with Dutch, I might possibly could do that using my iphone for the translations.

There's also Google translate. The problem is the translations of technical stuff is usually not very good.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Mike Kölling on January 05, 2024, 06:43:01 pm
DeepL is giving better translations than Google translate in my opinion.
Mike
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: David Graser on January 05, 2024, 07:17:23 pm
I have a suggestion.

In the Desktop > System Setup > Workplace Shell > Icon size tab > Layout

The default is as placed.  I think a better default would be Multiple columns.

However to make this work, an exception of the desktop would need to be added.  See pic.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Alfredo Fernández Díaz on January 05, 2024, 07:33:40 pm
Has anyone noticed the language viewer will not show when selected?

desktop > system setup > language viewer
It is a tiny floating window. Not easy to spot, easy to lose track of.

However, it's not all that useful for the public at large. From its help:

Quote from: Language viewer help
The Bidirectional Language Viewer is a system object that allows the user to view and modify various system settings that are related to support of bidirectional languages [Languages that are read and written from left to right and from right to left, such as Arabic, Farsi and Urdu.].

In addition to the normal features (as for any Workplace Shell object) The Language Viewer supports the following functions:
[...]
Language [The language with which the viewer communicates with the user. In the Arabic version it can be either English or Arabic.]
and apparently there's stuff for Hebrew and Thai as well, but it is all quite cryptic.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on January 05, 2024, 07:36:44 pm
The apple iphones have translation software.  One can translate from English to Dutch is one so choses.

I am no programmer, but if it s matter of replacing English text with Dutch, I might possibly could do that using my iphone for the translations.

There's also Google translate. The problem is the translations of technical stuff is usually not very good.

To expand on this... I've read that Google Translate and the like have gotten much better. Supposedly they've added AI techniques to better understand the context so the software can choose the appropriate word. But that's of little help when text to be translated is single words and short phrases. The person doing the work has to add the context - perhaps multiple times in multiple ways - to avoid getting a laughably bad result.

For example... A few days ago I had to confirm the translation of the word "screen" into German. If I just put in "screen" I got a long list of words - after all, it doesn't know if I'm talking about a computer screen or a screen door. I had to try "computer screen", "television sreen", etc, to triangulate on the correct word. In the case of phrases, I may have to reword it several different ways to ensure the vocabulary remains the same (e.g. to confirm that the word for "screen" doesn't change from one phrase to the next). Currently, machine translation takes a lot of work.

I'm hoping AI will make it easier by letting you specify the context, such as "I need to translate some words and phrases associated with computers into German".  We'll see...
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Remy on January 05, 2024, 11:35:52 pm
DeepL is giving better translations than Google translate in my opinion.
Mike

In most cases, I agree
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 06, 2024, 01:36:44 pm
It's a folder with 362 Icon files.

Thanks for sharing that little detail. I was able to duplicate this easily once I knew what you were talking about (though I suspect they were actually PNG icons, not "icons"). Blame the MM classes...

It's .ICO files of class WPIcon. That is not a subclass of any MM class. Also, I can open the /OS2 folder, hit F5 multiple times with the same effect.
The only thing that helps is to close the folder which will immediately terminate all those refresh threads.
Xworkplace's XFolder replaces the wpPopulate method. If at all, I would suspect this to be the culprit.

As a test, I have reduced to one core only. In that case, the second PMShell instance will not "accumulate" multiple threads. So, this is a serialization issue of the WPS.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 06, 2024, 10:56:08 pm
Hello

Does anybody knows if the Alt+F4 boot mode, to pause at each device driver, works in UEFI mode now? I can not make it work on the T14s (UEFI).

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 07, 2024, 05:59:17 am
It's a folder with 362 Icon files.

Thanks for sharing that little detail. I was able to duplicate this easily once I knew what you were talking about (though I suspect they were actually PNG icons, not "icons"). Blame the MM classes...

It's .ICO files of class WPIcon. That is not a subclass of any MM class. Also, I can open the /OS2 folder, hit F5 multiple times with the same effect.
The only thing that helps is to close the folder which will immediately terminate all those refresh threads.
Xworkplace's XFolder replaces the wpPopulate method. If at all, I would suspect this to be the culprit.

As a test, I have reduced to one core only. In that case, the second PMShell instance will not "accumulate" multiple threads. So, this is a serialization issue of the WPS.

I think, I have found the culprit, it is in XFolders "wpRefresh" override method (src\classes\xfldr.c).
That method needs to protect itself against being invoked when a Refresh is already ongoing.

Therefore, it should be extended like this:

SOM_Scope BOOL  SOMLINK xf_wpRefresh(XFolder *somSelf,
                                     ULONG ulView,
                                     PVOID pReserved)
{
    BOOL        rc;
    ULONG fFlags;

    // XFolderData *somThis = XFolderGetData(somSelf);
    XFolderMethodDebug("XFolder","xf_wpRefresh");

    fFlags = _wpQueryFldrFlags(somSelf);

    if (fFlags & (FOI_REFRESHINPROGRESS | FOI_POPULATEINPROGRESS))
    {
       return FALSE;
    }

   _wpModifyFldrFlags(somSelf, FOI_REFRESHINPROGRESS,FOI_REFRESHINPROGRESS);

    rc = XFolder_parent_WPFolder_wpRefresh(somSelf, ulView, pReserved);

    fdrForEachOpenInstanceView(somSelf,
                               stb_UpdateCallback,
                               2);           // update

    xthrPostWorkerMsg(WOM_REFRESHFOLDERVIEWS,
                      (MPARAM)somSelf,
                      (MPARAM)FDRUPDATE_TITLE);

   _wpModifyFldrFlags(somSelf, FOI_REFRESHINPROGRESS,0);

    return rc;
}

I think it would also be a good idea to remove the "xthrPostWorkerMsg" as there is no need to update the window title of a single refreshed folder and it also executes asynchronously (so, either reset the FOI_REFRESHINPROGRESS flag in the window function posted to from "xthrPostWorkerMsg" or better remove it completely from this spot).

Is there any proper place where I can raise a problem report ?
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Paul Smedley on January 07, 2024, 08:38:02 am
I believe  https://trac.netlabs.org/xworkplace/report is the right place...
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 07, 2024, 01:09:30 pm
Yes, you are right. I opened a ticket there. Maybe Rich will have a look. I would try my suggestion myself but I have never built XWorkplace myself.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: roberto on January 07, 2024, 05:49:22 pm
An option that perhaps in the future could be interesting to consider, would be 0.03125 and 125000, but for today it is not reliable, and with old applications it fails.
Using this value results in a decoupling in the charts that I think can be interesting for the developers of Cairo.
I have seen it with pgpro.exe or True Spectra program
Everything works, but the scales are different.
Saludos
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Rich Walsh on January 07, 2024, 11:08:12 pm
Maybe Rich will have a look.

I've been working on it since you provided enough info that I could consider this a bug report and not just a complaint.

What I've found so far is that the problem starts upstream of wpRefresh(). wpRefresh runs synchronously and will hang the Desktop for as long as needed if there are multiple requests. That's why the upstream function, fdrForceRefresh(), spins off a separate thread to invoke it. Before doing so it checks for FOI_REFRESHINPROGRESS and aborts if set. The only trouble is that I've yet to see it set, and if _I_ set it, wpRefresh() does nothing. I'm going to reorder the sequence of events to see if that makes a difference. If not, I'll have to add something to each folder's data to signal that an XWP-initiated refresh is in progress.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Lars on January 08, 2024, 01:14:11 am
Thanks, I had also opened a ticket. Yes, it looks like the thread creation in "fdrForceRefresh" leads to the accumulation of started threads that perform the actual refresh.

The parent method of "wpRefresh" seemingly needs to have the REFRESHINPROGRESS flag not set on entry in order to actually do something so yes, you would need to "lock out" an additional refresh via another means.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Joop on January 11, 2024, 06:12:56 pm
Totally frozen, Dutch will be available with version 5.2, but they didn't mentioned which sub version. So I don't know if the hardware will last that long, I'm afraid that this is  some kind of "goodbye". I have to wait at least for another year if not more. Also no translation requests received, so its firmly on the back-burner.[...] So, a lot of promises, with version 5.0 its promised, but no delivery. Not good. I'm not sure if I'm willing to translate with this knowledge.

If there's anyone to blame for this situation, it's your fellow countrymen.

For years I've been looking for a Dutch translator for XWP and haven't found one. For v1.0.14, I had to crowd-source my Dutch translations from people here on os2world. Sadly, they haven't been seen here since the pandemic, so I suspect they're no longer with us. So, who's left? If I can't get someone to translate 20-30 phrases every year or two, how can you expect AN to turn out something far, far larger? It seems unrealistic.
Thanks, found the start of that request with a file. I did respond back then and I was not actively busy with translating. Also I asked for the manual and for some reason it ended there. I can't recall what happened, sorry. I did open the file which was given by you and there is not much in it which can be translated, because a lot of things are the same in Dutch due to English influence in the language. But not all and certainly not a manual. So don't blame me for not responding, I did respond. Also  translating is going totally different than most developers think it will go. Also they sometimes want that you translate in some kind of environment for which you have to  download lot of programs which pollute your own computer and that is just for one program. Another program needs something else and so on. This is the reason I don't  go to translate Libreoffice. They don't have a glue how that's going and are not willing to do it differently. For your information, Libreoffice is far larger then just one program, special there that I have to write a complete almost new manual, not only in Dutch, but also in English!. But then I will be busy for some years and almost daily. And I do it for free (I have already an income), so I want a little more respect and also communication when something is not clear or doesn't work (remind the "Y" in English, which is "J" in Dutch. Often overlooked. Have a nice day, thank you.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Bernt_Z on January 16, 2024, 01:33:27 pm
Installed on Elitebook 830 G5 in UEFI mode.
Works fairly well, Good job Arca Noae!

Some issues:
. I was very dissapointed not having a working Wifi. It's ok with desktops, but not with laptops. You shouldn't need to add peripherals for such a common access! Hopefully this is solved in 5.1.1.
- Don't now why, but copying from/to FAT32 USB is so slow compared to Linuxes. Is it beacause these are 64-bit? I doubt it. If someone has an explanation I am happy. Files included. Config.sys renamed to Config.doc.
- The LAN speed is about 1/3 compared to inux, but I can live with it.
- Now I'm struggling with installing some 32 bit Linux, but have tried with both 32-bit and 64-bit EFI boot files. This is beacuse I have a 32 bit Cobol compiler I want to use since old times.

I'm impressed of the efforts in this community! Me myself is a newcomer here but fairly old in using OS/2, Ecomstation and last years AOS.
rgds Bernt Z
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: CalYY on January 17, 2024, 08:20:25 am
Do you have INETCFG.INI in bootdrive\mptn\etc? If so post it.  I have tripled network speed with some modifcations to system.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Andi B. on January 17, 2024, 08:44:48 am
....- Don't now why, but copying from/to FAT32 USB is so slow compared to Linuxes. Is it beacause these are 64-bit? I doubt it. If someone has an explanation I am happy. Files included. Config.sys renamed to Config.doc.
Our FAT32 driver is notoriously slow. It's not because it is 32 and 16 bit. It's probably cause of some not so good design decisions decades ago. We are happy that it is somehow stable. If you need FAT32 for more than a few small files you've to use another OS.

Quote
- The LAN speed is about 1/3 compared to inux, but I can live with it.
How do you measure 'LAN speed'? Usually ftp or other protocols are nearly the same as with every other OS. It is limited by the hardware (100Base-TX, 1000Base-T). Wild guess - you measure speed with SMB shares only, right?
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Bernt_Z on January 17, 2024, 12:20:10 pm
CalYY - posted the file
Andi B - only accessing a web server, same as with Linux. In AOS I use Firefox. Haven't installed Samba, I don't need it.
Thanks for Your answers, appreciated!!!!
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Bernt_Z on January 17, 2024, 12:27:41 pm
CalYY - sorry, forgot the file, now ok
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on January 17, 2024, 03:21:27 pm
At Warpstock this year, we discussed the progress for WiFi support. I don't know Arca Noae plans, but it sounds like it isn't going to be soon.

The problem is too few developers, so if someone reading this feels like implementing WiFi sooner, contact Arca Noae about that. I would be a welcome feature.
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on January 17, 2024, 03:58:39 pm
To be honest, Arca Noae ignores the wishes of private users for years now. Yes, it is OK that they focus on what they like, but from a private foreign customer view the facts are:

- there is no Wi-Fi support (it was "on our list" since 2017, but from year to year it vanished into insignificance today)
- the same goes for "Non" US/English Versions of ArcaOS
- the same goes for participating in the "new" Browser Developement
- the same thing repeats itself now with hobbes archive. One can read well intentioned advice on the ArcaNoae Homepage that doesn't help
- without Paul Smedley tremendous work there won't be a current Sound Driver, not at all.

It's the way it is, there is nothing to cry about either. This is fact.

So I've long since given up hope that any concerns of private users play a role there.

For a Private User there is only one future for OS/2: use it in a Virtual Environment. Use the WLAN, the Bluetooth Drivers and everything else of the Host.

And for this you just need any one OS/2 Version.

And so there is no need for ArcaOS anymore.

Yes, too few developers is a problem, but on the other hand I would state that from a privat customer point of view some wrong priorities have been set over the years.

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 17, 2024, 05:41:05 pm
Hi Sigurd.
- there is no Wi-Fi support (it was "on our list" since 2017, but from year to year it vanished into insignificance today)
- the same goes for "Non" US/English Versions of ArcaOS
- the same goes for participating in the "new" Browser Developement
- the same thing repeats itself now with hobbes archive. One can read well intentioned advice on the ArcaNoae Homepage that doesn't help
- without Paul Smedley tremendous work there won't be a current Sound Driver, not at all.

I share your criticism, with the exception of Hobbes Archive. Even that Arca Noae cares about Hobbes, I don't think they should control the "community file repository". Arca Noae as a company may have resources, but they do not have the legal flexibility to host third party files the way a non-profit, University or even a community can.

I agree that we need that Arca Noae focus in the wifi, browser and Sound Driver subjects. Those are key requirements for an operating system.

Regards
Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: Doug Clark on January 17, 2024, 06:20:45 pm
Not discounting most of the concerns of Sigurd,  my view of ArcaNoae as a private user is/has been more upbeat. 

While virtualization is certainly a good solution for laptop users who aren't brave/foolish enough to modify their laptop's BIOS  (e.g. to remove whitelist for WiFi adapters), I don't think it is the only future for OS/2 users.  However I did see lots of users with AOS installed in  virtual machines on laptops at Warpstock, 

But the release of EUFI, NVMe and USB3 support shows that virtualization is not the only path forward for OS/2.  It is a path, but not the only one.

ArcaNoae is a business.  I would prefer they stay in business, even if that means making hard decisions on what to work on and not work on based on potential revenue and cost considerations.  I benefit from the things they do release that I need - even if it is not everything I need.  This is just my opinion, but I think it is worth paying for licenses and subscriptions so that ArcaNoae has revenue to stay in business and continue releasing improvements to OS/2.

I was surprised, but pleased, that ArcaNoae released a notice on the impending demise of Hobbes.  I thought the reason was so that people would know what was happening to keep the Hobbes archive working.  OS2voice is the best organization for running Hobbes now - thanks Roderick and all the others for their work on moving Hobbes from NMSU.  And thanks to NMSU for hosting Hobbes for so long.  The OS/2 community appreciates it.

Title: Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
Post by: JTA on January 18, 2024, 12:27:33 am
If you look on the ArcaNoae website, they seem to be adamant about supporting ArcaOS on a physical machine *and* in a VM (at least in terms of voicing that support on the webpages). You have a choice, and I hope they continue to support both approaches *equally* into the future:

  - every advancement in device drivers, app dev, plugs a current hole
  - continued Guest Additions dev keeps ArcaOS entirely problem-free

This is an important point, because you can run ArcaOS on a physical box as the primary OS, which does open yourself up to the problems with that approach ... lack of device drivers, applications that aren't quite modern enough, etc. UEFI allows you to multi-boot your way out of this. Or, ...

Run ArcaOS in a VM, with the HostOS providing *everything* that ArcaOS can't, or may not get to until future releases. There are no major device driver problems, no lack of access to modern apps, and so on.

If you go the AToF path of virtualization (shameless plug, see virtualization sub-forum), then you also get x64 app access within ArcaOS, and more.  Everything available at once, no multi-booting.

A (more) modern version of OS/2, and more choices for each on how to run it.

That's progress ... and why OS/2 (ArcaOS 5.1) is still relevant today!