OS2 World Community Forum

OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical => Applications => Topic started by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 08, 2017, 08:11:00 am

Title: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 08, 2017, 08:11:00 am
While I am happy about Blue Lion reaching beta stage a bit more Information about the product would be highly appreciated.

The questions I have are really easy to answer:

- is UNIAUD updated - and if - what additional Hardware is supported ?
- is an updated SNAP included - and if - what additional Hardware is supported ?
- is the INTEL WLAN Mulitmac included - and if - what additional Hardware is supported?

It would be really nice to have some more Facts, thank you very much in advance!

I repeat my offer to test it on a (more or less) recent Laptop - Lenovo T450s (running my updated WSeB so far) if it is usefull to Arca Noae.

Sigurd

Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Michaelhz on February 08, 2017, 03:54:23 pm
I'd like to add:

- what about > 2TB capability?

BR
Michael
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Greg Pringle on February 08, 2017, 05:02:46 pm
How about the memory problems. Does the new kernel flame out when the high memory runs out?
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Doug Bissett on February 08, 2017, 05:58:30 pm
I can't answer your specific questions, but I will point out that the first attempt will probably not include very many major changes. Doing that would cause a nightmare for support, because they would have a lot more trouble trying to determine if it was something new that was causing a problem, or if the new install procedure caused the problem.  From what I have seen, so far, some bugs have been squashed, what has been updated already will be included, and a few new tools have been created. Nothing major (except a new installer, which is not, yet, complete), but there are a few weeks left, and I hear that some new stuff is still to be added to the beta.

Don't expect miracles, this is a first step, after all. The miracles come later.

Quote
How about the memory problems. Does the new kernel flame out when the high memory runs out?

I will point out that the current high memory problems are not caused by "running out". It has something to do with unloading whatever needs to be unloaded. ECS 2.2b2 contains a partial fix for the problem. Low shared memory runs out, and programs (usually Firefox, in my case) seem to assume that that will never happen, so they just crash when it happens.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on February 08, 2017, 07:40:05 pm
Before Lewis answers, another guess from me:

o  Uniaud: not ready.

o  SNAP: probably not ready.
    Updated SNAP accelerated video driver (see: Current release timetable ... (https://www.arcanoae.com/current-release-timetable-arcaos-5-0-blue-lion/))

o  WLAN: not ready.

o  Above 2 TB: I don't know.

o  Kernel: improvements, esp. for shared memory above 512 MB.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: ivan on February 08, 2017, 08:59:48 pm
Are they going to test it AMD processor servers?  I do hope that AMD multi core processors get as much beta testing as Intel ones.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on February 08, 2017, 10:03:46 pm
Are they going to test it AMD processor servers?  I do hope that AMD multi core processors get as much beta testing as Intel ones.

What is wrong with AMD processors?
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Greg Pringle on February 08, 2017, 10:32:16 pm
Miracles do happen. OS/2 is still here.
I will buy ArcaOS5 on day one.
 
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: ivan on February 08, 2017, 10:53:14 pm
Nothing as far as I know Neil.  We use them exclusively and recommend them to our clients.

My question was based on the problems a few people have mentioned here about eCS and 6 core AMD processors and the fact that most off the shelf machines come with Intel processors.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Doug Bissett on February 09, 2017, 12:38:27 am
Quote
Are they going to test it AMD processor servers?  I do hope that AMD multi core processors get as much beta testing as Intel ones.

I don't have an AMD server, but I am testing what is available on a triple core AMD, and later, I will test on a quad core AMD, and a much more recent AMD A6 with UEFI.

Since the base OS has not really changed, I doubt if any big surprises await, good, or bad. If it works today, it will probably work with ArcaOS. If not, you will probably still have the same problems. I haven't seen any surprises, yet. It hasn't been perfect, but that is what beta testing is for.

As I posted earlier, the main objective now, is to get this thing off the ground with as few surprises as possible. Then, they will start to work on the new stuff.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Joseph M. Kempf on February 09, 2017, 12:53:20 pm
It is good to hear that you are beta testing on AMD CPUs.   In my experience UEFI is the biggest roadblock when installing eCS 2.2b2 on modern hardware.   eCS 2.2b2 runs OK on my 8 core AMD FX CPU and on my TP EDGE E555  with an AMD A10.  Installing eCS 2.2b2 directly on the TP E555 was impossible though.  My workaround was to do the install on a SSD in a Thinkpad EDGE E525 and then to remove the SSD and reinstall the SSD in my TP E555.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Doug Bissett on February 09, 2017, 07:55:09 pm
Quote
It is good to hear that you are beta testing on AMD CPUs.   In my experience UEFI is the biggest roadblock when installing eCS 2.2b2 on modern hardware.

Can you describe the problems, so I can test for them?

I didn't have any trouble installing eCS 2.2b2 to my A6 with UEFI. The only problem that I had installing to my Lenovo ThinkPad L530 (Intel) with UEFI, is that I need the QSINIT loader to have access to more than 512 meg of memory. Sound doesn't work properly in either one, but that is UniAud, not eCS 2.2b2 itself. ArcaOS beta is still waiting for a new UniAud (don't know what will be in the GA).

Quote
Installing eCS 2.2b2 directly on the TP E555 was impossible though.  My workaround was to do the install on a SSD in a Thinkpad EDGE E525 and then to remove the SSD and reinstall the SSD in my TP E555.

I suspect that may have something to do with the SSD. I don't have one of them, but I do know that boot timing, on faster systems, can cause problems. SSD speeds it up even more, so it is entirely possible that something messes up during boot. So far, I haven't seen any hint of boot timing problems, with ArcaOS, but that depends on the hardware, and I haven't tested with all of my systems, yet.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: TeLLie on February 09, 2017, 09:12:45 pm
Hi
I have tested so far BL beta with a AMD FX-8320E  8core  and a Crucial CT256MX100SSD1 hard disk, and MB is a M5A78L/USB3 and 4GB mem
Install runs ok , so far only some small known glitches.
It's looking promising so far :)
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 09, 2017, 09:33:04 pm
Hi
I have tested so far BL beta with a AMD FX-8320E  8core  and a Crucial CT256MX100SSD1 hard disk, and MB is a M5A78L/USB3 and 4GB mem
Install runs ok , so far only some small known glitches.
It's looking promising so far :)

Fortunately - So you might be able to answer my three simple questions?
Thank you very much in Advance!
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on February 10, 2017, 12:25:19 am
Maybe someone will answer your questions. I signed an agreement with Arca Noae that says I won't disclose the details of what I'm testing.

Since you already know everyone who is working on the project, and what they are doing, I think you can pretty much guess what will be in the 5.0 release.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 10, 2017, 08:19:16 am
Maybe someone will answer your questions. I signed an agreement with Arca Noae that says I won't disclose the details of what I'm testing.

Since you already know everyone who is working on the project, and what they are doing, I think you can pretty much guess what will be in the 5.0 release.

Hi Neil,

unfortunately it is not like this. As I do know some People involved in this Project I have no other or more  Information than what is provided on the Arca Noae Webpage or during the Warpstock presentations (-Videos). Otherwise I would/may not have asked.

From that sources the Information for me says: we want to, we might, it is possible that.... But nothing fixed regarding my three questions.

It is a pitty - I can not remember any other operating System I use/did use (OS/2 since Warp 3, Windows since 3.11...) making such a mystery what is included in beta stages (well, Alpha stage is another Story) - except of one: eComStation 2.0. Where that lead us to is a sad story...

Usually it was allways the other way round - coming to beta stage (I like the Warp 4 Merlin Beta very much) did give quite a good overview what to expect.

Anyway, I will not ask any more, keep this file Close. But I doubt that using the same Information policy in that case like Mensys/xeu is a good way to go.

But please do not misunderstand - thanks for your Reply!
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Andi B. on February 10, 2017, 10:07:00 am
@Sigurd - why don't you simple email Lewis at AN? Did you offer yourself as beta tester? I mean directly per email or phone not in this group where we all know no one from AN reads it. Probably no one here knows exactly what will be in the first release. I guess not even Lewis and David does exactly. But that's only a personal opinion.

We all know you own a lot of different systems and you've a lot of experience in installing on them. Maybe AN will give you access to the beta.

I don't have any facts about your questions but I guess there is no substantial progress in any of that fields. Best bet for some progress would be on Multimac/WiFi IMHO. Of course I would be happy if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 10, 2017, 11:42:48 am
@Sigurd - why don't you simple email Lewis at AN? Did you offer yourself as beta tester?

- EMail: I did not mail because I did not want to waste their rare time for this, I thought that there are some testers around wich might answer as it seemed to me to be a very easy answer for those, taking part in beta test (simply YES or NO in first case). I was not Aware of the Beta being something "100% closed" (Top secret)

- Beta Tester: I did this the last time at Warpstock Europe last year when I met Lewis for the first time ((and the year before I talked about the same subject with Roderick Klein and (if I remember correctly) with David A. while he found a bug when working with my Sony Vaio Pro 13 at Warpstock Europe 2015)). I did not want to ask to often as I got no response.

Anyway - as I wrote before, there is no need for me to get the Information anymore. Thanks
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 10, 2017, 12:07:57 pm
We all know you own a lot of different systems and you've a lot of experience in installing on them. Maybe AN will give you access to the beta.

In fact I will sell most of them in the next weeks, despite some - for me - really nice and important Laptops (IBM Transnote, ThinkPad 701c "Butterfly", ThinkPad X41, Sony Vaio Pro 13).

For daily use a have a Surface Pro 4 i7 16GB RAM since a while and I am very happy with it.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Joseph M. Kempf on February 10, 2017, 01:11:01 pm
Quote
It is good to hear that you are beta testing on AMD CPUs.   In my experience UEFI is the biggest roadblock when installing eCS 2.2b2 on modern hardware.

Can you describe the problems, so I can test for them?

I didn't have any trouble installing eCS 2.2b2 to my A6 with UEFI. The only problem that I had installing to my Lenovo ThinkPad L530 (Intel) with UEFI, is that I need the QSINIT loader to have access to more than 512 meg of memory. Sound doesn't work properly in either one, but that is UniAud, not eCS 2.2b2 itself. ArcaOS beta is still waiting for a new UniAud (don't know what will be in the GA).

I had to go into the motherboard 'bios' and switch the motherboard to 'Legacy Mode' to install eCS 2.2b2 on my ASRock 970 Extreme3 R2.0.  No surprise there I expect.  The CPU is an 8 core FX 8320E.  The harddrive is a SATA 3 SSD.  The onboard NIC works and I'm happy with the machine's performmance for now.

Quote
Installing eCS 2.2b2 directly on the TP E555 was impossible though.  My workaround was to do the install on a SSD in a Thinkpad EDGE E525 and then to remove the SSD and reinstall the SSD in my TP E555.

I suspect that may have something to do with the SSD. I don't have one of them, but I do know that boot timing, on faster systems, can cause problems. SSD speeds it up even more, so it is entirely possible that something messes up during boot. So far, I haven't seen any hint of boot timing problems, with ArcaOS, but that depends on the hardware, and I haven't tested with all of my systems, yet.

Again I had to go into the motherboard 'bios' and switch the motherboard to 'Legacy Mode'.  Thereafter three problems arose during installation on the Lenovo TP E555:
1) Loading of the virtual floppies into RAM would stall around 2/3rd the time on varying installation disks (1st, 2nd or 3rd),
2) There was a problem with selection of system drivers (I forget the details), and
3) Either the onboard laptop keyboard or the laptop touchpad would not work, sometimes both, sometimes the problem would switch from one device to the other.


I ended up disabling the two USB3 ports and reverted to USB2 in 'bios', attached USB keyboard and USB mouse but was unable to access a USB floppy drive to load in the eCS key.  Only two USB devices worked at a time.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Alex Taylor on February 10, 2017, 01:36:37 pm
Sigurd,

NDAs are just standard practice for closed beta testing. More to the point, I think Neil and the others are being mindful of not wanting to speak for Arca Noae.

You can certainly ask Arca Noae if you can join the testing group.  (I don't know if more members are being solicited at this time, but asking is pretty much a free action.)  However, asking about hardware support in a particular beta release isn't really useful if you're not actually going to be using that beta.  Beta-cycle software is by definition a moving target, so predicting the state of driver versions in the final release based on the contents of a beta is not really scientific.

The drivers you mention are, TTBOMK, all in the development queue. Generally speaking, once updated versions of these (and other) drivers are considered stable to Arca Noae's satisfaction, they will be released.

Arca Noae's drivers are released through the subscription service; I would say it's safe to assume that ArcaOS 5.0 will also include the most up-to-date versions at the time of release.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on February 10, 2017, 04:18:22 pm
...My question was based on the problems a few people have mentioned here about eCS and 6 core AMD processors and the fact that most off the shelf machines come with Intel processors.

An ancient AMD Phenom II X6 here (1100T), but only workable with 5 cores, the 6th one causes the dreaded "Blue Screen of Boot Death"...LOL...mind you, not all the time, but too often altogether, to the point where attempting to boot with one is almost always a miss.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Pete on February 10, 2017, 06:23:30 pm
Hi All

In a recent email to Lewis I offered my services as a beta tester. His response was, basically, along the lines of: thank you for the offer but we already have a test group with a range of hardware and use cases but if we need some more testers will let you know.

So I guess there is no harm in anyone sending an email and offering their services just in case AN need to increase their test group size.


@Dariusz
Do all 6 cores run fine under Windows and/or linux? - If not maybe you have an X5 with the dead core switched on.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Doug Bissett on February 10, 2017, 07:40:42 pm
Quote
I had to go into the motherboard 'bios' and switch the motherboard to 'Legacy Mode' to install eCS 2.2b2 on my ASRock 970 Extreme3 R2.0.  No surprise there I expect.

I believe that is a listed requirement. Yes, you do need to use "Legacy Mode". This is an old OS after all.

Quote
1) Loading of the virtual floppies into RAM would stall around 2/3rd the time on varying installation disks (1st, 2nd or 3rd),

I haven't seen any problems with that, so far. Of course, I never saw a problem with that before either.

Quote
2) There was a problem with selection of system drivers (I forget the details)

Since it is a new installer, it will need extensive testing.

Quote
3) Either the onboard laptop keyboard or the laptop touchpad would not work, sometimes both, sometimes the problem would switch from one device to the other.

I haven't tried on a laptop, yet. I will keep this in mind. If I get my way, the touchpad will be turned off, but that is irrelevant for testing. My Lenovo ThinkPad T510 has a switch in BIOS to do that. My Lenovo ThinkPad L530 has no such thing. In windows, I can turn it off. In eCS, I cannot do that, and it is a PITA. I may put in a feature request.

Quote
I ended up disabling the two USB3 ports and reverted to USB2 in 'bios', attached USB keyboard and USB mouse but was unable to access a USB floppy drive to load in the eCS key.  Only two USB devices worked at a time.

USB has not changed, yet (don't know if it will, or not - probably not). USB 3.0 support is definitely unlikely (AFAIK, the project has started, but no progress, yet).

Sounds like you need a USB hub, to allow more things to plug in, but that is really not something that any installer can address.

I will note, that it is possible to add stuff (like keys) to the DVD, when you burn it, if you do it carefully.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Lars on February 11, 2017, 02:07:00 pm
I am not surprised that a USB floppy drive did not work. USBMSD. ADD
 version 10.162,latest version from IBM is not working well. As a test you can download my latest usbdrv215. zip from Hobbes.nmsu.edu. I have tested with a Mitsumi floppy drive.
Of course that will not help you with your boot CD.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: ivan on February 11, 2017, 02:25:55 pm
As we all know getting drivers for modern hardware is like chasing a rainbow, you never catch it, but I can't help wonder which direction things are going.

Here is a short list from a new AMD based laptop

CPU name: AMD E2-7110 APU with AMD Radeon R2 Graphics, 4 logical CPUs

Network controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8821AE 802.11ac PCIe Wireless Network Adapter
VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Mullins [Radeon R3 Graphics]
Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH Azalia Controller
SMBus: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH SMBus Controller
SATA controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH SATA Controller [AHCI mode]
USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH USB XHCI Controller
USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH USB EHCI Controller
Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller

The question is, how many of those are being investigated?

Lars is doing an excellent job with his USB drivers but what about graphics, networking and sound.

Has anyone compiled a list of typical hardware in modern laptops and systems and using it to see which direction development should be going?  If not then all the effort is being put into standing still and marking time.

Sorry to appear negative but we, the users, are not being given any idea as to what we can possibly look forward to.

Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Joseph M. Kempf on February 11, 2017, 02:35:27 pm
I am not surprised that a USB floppy drive did not work. USBMSD. ADD
 version 10.162,latest version from IBM is not working well. As a test you can download my latest usbdrv215. zip from Hobbes.nmsu.edu. I have tested with a Mitsumi floppy drive.
Of course that will not help you with your boot CD.
Thanks Lar:

I'll give usbdrv215 as try. 
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on February 11, 2017, 04:48:22 pm
For those of you who are concerned about the future of device driver support, please view the Warpstock videos on the topic. These videos answer pretty much every future device support question in this thread.

I don't want to speak for AN, but I see the purpose of the release of ArcaOS is not bring support for these new devices, but to bring together the current level of support to allow more people to install the OS, and also to purchase legal copies of the OS.

The release of ArcaOS is actually taking time away from the same developers who work on new device support. After the release, I'm hoping for some good progress to be made.

And for those pioneering types who want to press the limits of what can be installed, the ArcaOS installation DVD is going to be a nice resource.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Doug Bissett on February 12, 2017, 04:54:12 am
Quote
Network controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8821AE 802.11ac PCIe Wireless Network Adapter
VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Mullins [Radeon R3 Graphics]
Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH Azalia Controller
SMBus: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH SMBus Controller
SATA controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH SATA Controller [AHCI mode]
USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH USB XHCI Controller
USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] FCH USB EHCI Controller
Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8101E/RTL8102E PCI Express Fast Ethernet controller

The question is, how many of those are being investigated?

I think it is safe to say that all of them are being "investigated". Whether anything will actually be supported, remains to be seen. I suspect that some of them may already be supported. Have you tried it?

Quote
Sorry to appear negative but we, the users, are not being given any idea as to what we can possibly look forward to.

I think that even Arca Noae doesn't know exactly what you can look forward to, for the GA, except that it will be the latest available, stable, software, packaged with a new installer. From what I have seen, it will definitely be a step forward from eCS 2.2b2 (which is now more than 3 years out of date), but you need to remember that the first attempt is to try to move forward with small increments (read "fixes") to what already exists, and add new stuff later. It would be a support nightmare if they tried to push new stuff into the first release (and it would probably delay the whole thing for more than a year). As I have said before, don't expect miracles. At least the platform lives on, for now.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Joseph M. Kempf on February 12, 2017, 08:25:20 pm
I think that ... that [the GA] will be the latest available, stable, software, packaged with a new installer.
Thanks for your response above Doug.

Based on my experienced described above, the new installer is the number one must do upgrade.  Bring incremental currently available driver and software updates into the installation DVD will be much appreciate but updating the installer is the number one must do.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on February 13, 2017, 12:47:12 am
the new installer is the number one must do upgrade
I agree. The upgrade feature will be added as more as
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 13, 2017, 09:21:42 am
You can certainly ask Arca Noae if you can join the testing group.  (I don't know if more members are being solicited at this time, but asking is pretty much a free action.)  However, asking about hardware support in a particular beta release isn't really useful if you're not actually going to be using that beta.  Beta-cycle software is by definition a moving target, so predicting the state of driver versions in the final release based on the contents of a beta is not really scientific.

The drivers you mention are, TTBOMK, all in the development queue. Generally speaking, once updated versions of these (and other) drivers are considered stable to Arca Noae's satisfaction, they will be released.

Arca Noae's drivers are released through the subscription service; I would say it's safe to assume that ArcaOS 5.0 will also include the most up-to-date versions at the time of release.

Hi Alex,

thanks for your Reply, my Intention was just to ask wether or not these (updated) Drivers will be included in the GA or not. I did not know that I had to be part of a beta testing Group (I offered my help before as written) for this simple questions nor wanted to have a "principled discussion" about beta Software. I was assuming that a "beta stage" (with the GA to be expected 8 weeks later) would be complete when it comes to the question what Drivers are included. It seemed to me to be logical - if these Drivers would be ready - then those will be included in the beta stage, and if not - these are simply not included. I guessed that each of these Drivers, once ready, would need intense testing again. All the more, because these Drivers come from Arca Noae, where the ones they already made availiable have such a good Quality so far!

From all that's written here I extract that None of them are included, wich leads to a simple "No".

Of course I am looking forward to the GA and I am happy that it will take place at all!
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: ivan on February 15, 2017, 01:22:22 pm
Quote
more components were packed as .rpm packages

I hope not!  OS/2 is not a Unix/Linux system and should never be.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on February 15, 2017, 05:51:24 pm
Quote
more components were packed as .rpm packages

I hope not!  OS/2 is not a Unix/Linux system and should never be.

This seems to be Arca Noae's position. More .rpm, a few things that aren't .rpm will become so. For people on other branches, like eCS, MPC or Warp 4, .rpm capability will be an important option.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Doug Bissett on February 16, 2017, 07:28:55 am
Quote
more components were packed as .rpm packages

I hope not!  OS/2 is not a Unix/Linux system and should never be.

Well, OS/2 is not Unix/Linux, and never will be. ArcaOS, on the other hand, is going to use Arca Noae Package Manager (RPM/YUM). This really has nothing to do with turning OS/2 into a Unix/Linux system. It is simply a semi-automated method to distribute software, and make sure that all prereqs are met, with minimal user interaction. It is probably not the best way to do it, but it is the way that it is being done. The other option seems to be to simply stop updating things like Firefox, and AOO, unless you want to jump through hoops trying to sort out what you need to do to make it work (welcome to DLL H**L).
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Dave Yeo on February 16, 2017, 08:44:46 am
Firefox and probably OO could be built with way fewer dependencies and the needed dependencies such as fontconfig could be more OS/2 friendly. The problem is time. There's a shortage of developer resources with dmik for example seeming to always be working on at least half a dozen things. It's quicker and simpler to just port something once and reuse it and the more simple the port can be, the quicker.
Even the time spent compiling some of this stuff can be reduced. I just compiled SM 2.42 to the expected build break linking xul.dll and it took 256 minutes, and that's without compiling things like nspr. Now we probably have a problem with our toolchain that might be hard to fix, I know I couldn't and I'm glad that we have someone like dmik who will probably figure out a fix.
It's amazing how far this OS that was designed originally 30 years ago has done but we're a small community with limited resources which force some decisions to be made including grabbing an already package manager and using it.
Arca Noae has the same problems, shortage of resources, probably money as well and they've decided on a beta procedure that they can support. It looks like they'll be able to get ArcaOS 5.0 out the door before Apr and then they can go back to fixing and creating drivers etc.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: ivan on February 16, 2017, 09:36:07 am
I know all these arguments but when a client asks 'if OS/2 is turning into Linux why don't we just dump it and use Linux?'

I find I need to say something and ask how many other organisations are wondering the same thing.  It could end up with the use of OS/2 becoming smaller not larger as we were hoping.

Dave, I can understand your point about the tools used but from my engineering viewpoint wouldn't it be better to spend the time fixing the tools first?
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: guzzi on February 16, 2017, 11:02:26 pm
To come back to the original question, it looks like Uniaud is being worked on again. David A is busy cleaning up the build system.
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Roderick Klein on February 18, 2017, 08:50:17 pm
I know all these arguments but when a client asks 'if OS/2 is turning into Linux why don't we just dump it and use Linux?'

I find I need to say something and ask how many other organisations are wondering the same thing.  It could end up with the use of OS/2 becoming smaller not larger as we were hoping.

Dave, I can understand your point about the tools used but from my engineering viewpoint wouldn't it be better to spend the time fixing the tools first?


Ivan,

If people ask if OS/2 is turning into Linux. What is the definition of "turning into Linux"  ?

I do not know who these organizations that ask these questions you raise Ivan.  I also guess you can not disclose this. What I mean is if you mean organizations these are companies you provide consultancy services for that use OS/2 ? If these organizations and people have certain exceptions they are not very well known. I know BWW is still asking for extra funding...

As for native discussion and what makes OS/2 OS/2 ?!

* For years the GCC compiler and LIBC libraries have been the life line for OS/2 to get new software (Is LIBC native !?). Years ago this was started by innotek because the old IBM compilers no longer supported the new C++ dialects used in Mozilla (any of the experts, is that correct ?). Every OS/2 users has tons of GCC compiled on OS/2 system.
Few OS/2 users asked if we could not have a "native" OS/2 browser (what ever you could call native).

* Heck the last versions of Lotus Smartsuite to a large extend used OPEN32. Is that "native" ?
(Heck it used the system.dat user.dat).  Nobody raised the point that running Lotus Smartsuite on OS/2 you could just as well run Windows.

* The Java version from Goldencode was the last Java version that was compiled for OS/2 with something like ODIN in between.  Plenty of people used the Java ODIN versions  and never asked "well is OS/2 not turning into Windows" ?

* I just do not get it why the directory structure that the RPM/GCC applications bring to OS/2 make it "more of being" a Linux distribution then when using GCC apps. Also then we do have an RPM format for packages.

I guess you get the gist of my points. What is native OS/2 ? Since 2000 the amount of resources IBM allocated to OS/2 have been reduced. And to be honest I think its miracle we still can boot OS/2 in the current shape we have it now in conjunction with all drivers we have. Considering how many contribute...

Having been to Warpstock US 2014 in Witchita Kansas. I organized most of the Warpstock Europe events in the last 5 years alone. You know what the primary reason was why people wanted to dump OS/2 ?
Because their web browser, they did not know how to update it properly.  And so websites could not load and they and had put Linux  next to OS/2 or migrated.

In the grand scheme of things I think that is what people who do not like RPM should consider. Yes its true maybe the community could have created a "native" package (and reinvent the wheel). Maybe come up with a new software update framework. But with our limited human resources, why reinvent the wheel ?

Is RPM perfect ? Well maybe its not. But for developers it reduces the time they need to spend and makes live easier for a lot of people to update software.

To be honest I think a portion of the OS/2 are just way to conservative to accept change.   And its rather fear of the unknown...
My guess is that in about 1 year RPM/YUM will be accepted by most developers and most people will find it easy to just hit the update button and download an install all packages with a push of the button...

My conclusion OS/2 being  "native OS/2" basically ended when circa 2000 when IBM stopped updating compilers.
Heck you could say we no longer have a native compiler ? I am just trying to point out this discussion about what is native and that OS/2 is no longer OS/2 etc is somewhat of strange discussion.

We now have Open Watcom compiler and the GCC compiler and I think we should count our blessings how much software and drivers we have.  The developers developing for OS/2 have to make chooses. And if people expect differently then I guess somebody should put a bag of money on the counter to develop an alternative for RPM for example.

Anyway more news will follow on Warpstock Euroep 2017 for people who are interested. See www.warpstock.eu for details.  The amount of visitors has been rising over the last 2 years so lets see what happens.

Roderick Klein
Title: Re: Blue Lion Beta testing...
Post by: Dave Yeo on February 18, 2017, 10:22:06 pm

As for native discussion and what makes OS/2 OS/2 ?!

* For years the GCC compiler and LIBC libraries have been the life line for OS/2 to get new software (Is LIBC native !?). Years ago this was started by innotek because the old IBM compilers no longer supported the new C++ dialects used in Mozilla (any of the experts, is that correct ?). Every OS/2 users has tons of GCC compiled on OS/2 system.
Few OS/2 users asked if we could not have a "native" OS/2 browser (what ever you could call native).

OS/2 (ver2+) had as one of its design goals to be POSIX conforming. The native toolkit included a libc and to quote the Toolkits  C Library Reference, aimed to conform to,
Quote
The American National Standards Institute C Standard and International Standards Organization, ANSI/ISO 9899-1990[1992], and the amendment ISO/IEC 9899:1990/Amendment 1:1993(E)
The ISO/IEC 9945-1:1990/IEEE POSIX 1003.1-1990 standard
The X/Open Common Applications Environment Specification, System Interfaces and Headers, Issue 4
The IBM Systems Application Architecture (SAA) C Level 2 language definition.

Linux and the other Unixes, and even Windows to a degree, on and off, all strive to be compatible to the first 3 of the above, though newer versions of the standard. So you could say that one of the native characteristics of OS/2 is being able to compile programs written for POSIX, ANSI etc. This would include GCC.
As Roderick said, our current libc was developed under contract by Innotek to support GCC in compiling Mozilla and one of the former Innotek employees, still employed by Oracle to support VirtualBox, kept on supporting our libc in his spare time and also tried to make it conform to the SUS (Single Unix Specification).  BTW, VirtualBox was written to run OS/2, so is kind of a native program that has been ported to most other systems.
Today many programs are written to be cross-platform. Mozilla doesn't really have a native base, on all systems it just pretends to be native, using XUL etc to build native looking windows and using some native widgets. QT is another cross-platform library that allows us to run all kinds of programs and have them look native. Libc is just a lower level library to allow various programs to run on OS/2.

As for fixing the tools. It's not so simple. You design a hammer to pound in the average 1-3 inch nail and one day you need to pound in a 10 inch spike. You make your hammer bigger or design a sledge hammer. The another day you're building some cabinets and need to pound in little tiny nails and now your hammer needs to be fixed again or a new light weight hammer designed.
That's just the fun of designing a hammer, most of our tools are much more complicated but still come across new or different uses. Rather then fixing the tools, it's more like evolving the tools. There's also the rare corner cases that only get fixed when something needs the corner case. That's the state of compiling Mozilla now, a corner case (using weak symbols to ignore a missing symbol) that doesn't work right, so the tool needs updating.