OS2 World Community Forum

Public Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: RickCHodgin on November 21, 2018, 06:58:21 am

Title: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 21, 2018, 06:58:21 am
ES/1 will be renamed e/OS1.
ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2.

e/OS1 will be like a 32-bit graphical DOS with console and graphical windows, supporting fonts and basic graphics.

e/OS2 will be a 64-bit near clone of OS/2.  It will run a DOS-extended version of e/OS1 in lieu of DOS, and I'd like to add support for most Win32 apps, and some Win64 apps.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: André Heldoorn on November 21, 2018, 12:44:14 pm
e/OS2

Including legal matters, this may not be the best choice. For example because another combination of the /, O, S and 2 is known as an old 32-bit OS, and the e & S with an inserted C didn't really change that. As if e/OS1 is the 16-bit version of Microsoft OS/2 1.0. With Gopher, because of the e.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 21, 2018, 01:33:28 pm
What should they be called?  ES/1 and ES/2? :-)

Their full names are Exodus/OS1, and Exodus/OS2.  The e/ is an abbreviation.

-----
UPDATE:
The /OSn is an abbreviation too.

Their full full names are:
Exodus Operating System 1
Exodus Operating System 2

I'm open to suggestions on the name.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 21, 2018, 02:06:47 pm
In doing a Google search, I don't find any exact references to "e/OS1" or "e/OS2" ... I think they are good names that are different enough from others they could be used.  If not ... I'm not married to them.  I'd change them for the asking by some concerned party of legitimate interest.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Sergey Posokhov on November 21, 2018, 11:35:07 pm
It's a trademark. Don't touch other's trademark under any circumstances.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 21, 2018, 11:56:31 pm
It's a trademark. Don't touch other's trademark under any circumstances.

What's a trademark?
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 22, 2018, 02:06:27 am
Hi

Something with the OS/2 name can be a potential problem.
You can search trademarks in the US here: https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-application-process/search-trademark-database

Here are the results attached.

Regards
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Sergey Posokhov on November 22, 2018, 04:20:41 am
What's a trademark?

Technically, trademarks and brands are just words that companies tells to their customers. Like IDs and numbers in a price list, but here lies roots of the problem known as "what is genuine and what is not".

If you will put a margarine in a box with picture of a cream-milk butter and start to sell it, people eventually will hate both you and your fake butter. Sooner or later, they will realize that it is a poison full of omega 6 trans fat (because it is a margarine from cotton oil, and omega 6 TF is a poison), and will start to buy 25%-fat baked milk and 50%-fat butter with a true vengeance (both contains a saturated fat, which keeps temperature of human body close to 36.6 C). They will treat your product as "not genuine" and will never buy it again.

To understand this particular example, you could read a book "Fat for Fuel" by Joseph Mercola. But there are same problems with other goods and services, from chocolate and green tea to clothes and shoes, from ballroom dances and relaxing music to... for example, software.

So... despite you would prefer to keep API compatibility, don't imitate other's trademark (including icons, fonts and colors) because people will feel that "this is not a genuine software".
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 22, 2018, 05:09:46 am
So... despite you would prefer to keep API compatibility, don't imitate other's trademark (including icons, fonts and colors) because people will feel that "this is not a genuine software".

Sergey, I'm not imitating anything, especially someone else's trademark.  The target is to be an OS/2 clone, but it is not "OS/2" it is "e/OS2" which is different.  And, if IBM has any problem with me using that convention I'll change it.

This is twice now you've suggested that I'm infringing on someone else's trademark.  I do not think that I am.  If there is a legal relationship between my name choice and OS/2, I'd like to have it pointed out explicitly as by example of former companies that could not use a particular name as by a judge's ruling due to similarities like mine.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Dave Yeo on November 22, 2018, 05:34:06 am
Generally, trademark infringement revolves around whether people can be confused by the names. I'd think that e/OS2 and OS/2 are close enough to confuse people. Whether IBM would care at this point, who knows, but they do look similar and both describe an operating system.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 22, 2018, 05:38:37 am
Generally, trademark infringement revolves around whether people can be confused by the names. I'd think that e/OS2 and OS/2 are close enough to confuse people. Whether IBM would care at this point, who knows, but they do look similar and both describe an operating system.

I'm open to other names / suggestions.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 22, 2018, 05:23:30 pm
Hi

I think that something that uses the "Warp" world can be good, since "Warp" is an English word on the dictionary. If the combinations with the Warp word is not trademarked already, there should not be any problem.

For example "eWarp" is already trademarked, "e/Warp" is not.
But anything can be used like "exWarp", "WarpOS", "I Can't Believe It's Not Warp" (there is a lot trademarked with "I Can't Believe It's Not <put the name here>" :)   

Regards
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 22, 2018, 06:17:51 pm
I seem to recall, that even IBM had to get permission, from whoever owns the rights to Star Trek, to use the word "Warp". I would expect that "Warp", "OS/2", "OS2" and all variations, would be difficult, at best. Even e/OS2, or ES/2, could be pushing the limits. IBM does not allow Arca Noae to use those terms. Of course, if it is completely new, not based at all, on what IBM owns (partly in partnership with Microsoft, which seems to be the biggest problem), the name could be less of a factor.

Be careful how you do, and describe, your development. The OS/2 license specifically prohibits reverse engineering of the code. You need to use publicly available documentation to determine how it all works, and lot of that is out of date, incomplete, or missing. I will note, that Arca Noae (and possibly the US government) has permission to do reverse engineering, so they can patch, and distribute, whatever they can figure out.

One thing, that IBM has, is an army of lawyers, which they don't use as often as one might expect, but if they decide to go after you, you will lose (at best, you won't be able to pay a lawyer enough to even begin to defend you). Best to take all possible steps to avoid that.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 22, 2018, 06:41:48 pm
ES/2 uses quantum slipstream drive:

http://www.libsf.org/images/es2.png
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 22, 2018, 09:30:06 pm
I seem to recall, that even IBM had to get permission, from whoever owns the rights to Star Trek, to use the word "Warp". I would expect that "Warp", "OS/2", "OS2" and all variations, would be difficult, at best. Even e/OS2, or ES/2, could be pushing the limits. IBM does not allow Arca Noae to use those terms. Of course, if it is completely new, not based at all, on what IBM owns (partly in partnership with Microsoft, which seems to be the biggest problem), the name could be less of a factor.

If you have a source that IBM paid Paramount please let me know.  I have this on this article (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/half-an-operating-system-the-triumph-and-tragedy-of-os2/4/):

Quote
OS/2 version 3.0 would also come with a new name, and unlike codenames in the past, IBM decided to put it right on the box. It was to be called OS/2 Warp. Warp stood for "warp speed," and this was meant to evoke power and velocity. Unfortunately, IBM’s famous lawyers were asleep on the job and forgot to run this by Paramount, owners of the Star Trek license. It turns out that IBM would need permission to simulate even a generic “jump to warp speed” on advertising for a consumer product, and Paramount wouldn’t give it. IBM was in a quandary. The name was already public, and the company couldn’t use Warp in any sense related to spaceships. IBM had to settle for the more classic meaning of Warp—something bent or twisted. This, needless to say, isn’t exactly the impression you want to give for a new product. At the launch of OS/2 Warp in 1994, Patrick Stewart was supposed to be the master of ceremonies, but he backed down and IBM was forced to settle for Voyager captain Kate Mulgrew.

I don't know about any IBM payment to Paramount, and IBM even hired Leonard Nemoy and Kate Mulgrew to promote OS/2, but IBM never said "Spock", "Enterprise" on their branding, and I'm not sure but I can not find anything saying "Warp Speed" from IBM.

AFAIK an English word can not be copyrighted and if it is trademarked (the single English word) it had be used with the use of a graphic. Of course, the action of suing will always depend how much money can be took from the other party.

Quote
One thing, that IBM has, is an army of lawyers, which they don't use as often as one might expect, but if they decide to go after you, you will lose (at best, you won't be able to pay a lawyer enough to even begin to defend you). Best to take all possible steps to avoid that.

Very unlikely, I don't think that is even time to use the de-motivational "IBM will sue you card" when there is nothing yet. IBM is not even going after the groups that publicly hack, modify and distribute the kernel binaries of OS/2, just because there is not business case to go after them, and IBM can not even say that it hurts the sales of OS/2. If Rick starts to get rich with ES/2 maybe there will be a business case to launch the pack of lawyers.  We want to respect the law because we want to play with the same set of rules, but when there is a lot of money any law can be "warped".

Anyways, the Paramount/IBM/Warp thing is very interesting, I hope I can find more about that subject eventually.

Regards
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 22, 2018, 09:31:59 pm
ES/2 uses quantum slipstream drive:

http://www.libsf.org/images/es2.png

Even that the trademark of "Operating System/2" seems to be "dead", I don't know how the law operates on that way. Maybe you should not use "Operating System/2".

And if we get completely strict maybe the ArcaOS web page (https://www.arcanoae.com/blue-lion/) should say at the bottom that *OS/2 and Windows trademarks belong to the respective owners.  But I think this is as much as a I can comment on this subject since I'm not a copyright/trademark expert.

Regards
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 23, 2018, 01:44:04 pm
I think I'll keep referring to them as ES/1 and ES/2 during development.  Those names are pretty well established.

I do like e/OS1 and e/OS2.  Maybe if someone knows someone at IBM they could ask?
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 23, 2018, 01:49:31 pm
Hi Rick

I would not worry about the name right now, it is more important the functionality of the software and that it gets open source so it can have a future :)

Regards
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 23, 2018, 02:04:18 pm
Hi Rick

I would not worry about the name right now, it is more important the functionality of the software and that it gets open source so it can have a future :)

Regards

I think the name is important.  I'm effectively building a new community here.  Calling it, "Name To Be Later Determined" is not a good thing.  We need to know where we are.  Where we are going.  And why.

I've always liked ES/1 and ES/2.  Maybe I'll ultimately keep those.  But, they need names to establish and preserve their identity.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Andi B. on November 23, 2018, 03:45:20 pm
IMHO every name which includes / is far from good. People often talked ridiculously about OS/2 as being only half of an operating system ( /2 ). Moreover for the casual user input to search engines with / in a name gives all but proper results. 

Another annoying thing is that on non US keyboards / isn't that easy to type as the Americans are used to. But of course it's your name and you have to like it and live with it :-)
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on November 23, 2018, 05:54:26 pm
IMHO every name which includes / is far from good. People often talked ridiculously about OS/2 as being only half of an operating system ( /2 ). Moreover for the casual user input to search engines with / in a name gives all but proper results. 

Another annoying thing is that on non US keyboards / isn't that easy to type as the Americans are used to. But of course it's your name and you have to like it and live with it :-)

What about the / on Linux for the file paths?  It could be \ instead.  ES\1 and ES\2 work.  How about ES^1 and ES^2.  Exponential increases.  Imagine the follow-on ES^3. :-)

What if we didn't call it an "operating system" and instead something more like what it is, such as "system executive"?

e\SE1, e\SE2.  I like those, short for: Exodus System Executive 1 and Exodus System Executive 2.

Part of my desire to have the / in there is because my original kernel from the early/mid 90s was q/OS.  It's how I started, and it's been ingrained into me.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: André Heldoorn on December 03, 2018, 07:59:36 pm
ES\1 and ES\2 work.  How about ES^1 and ES^2.  Exponential increases.

Better than making it look like a combination of eCS and IBM's OS/2, let's say assuming it will be a commercial success somehow.

But I'm not sure "mum" will know what you are talking about, she may not understand the meaning of the ^-smileys, and she may like the fact that you're quite close to "EaSI".

With some keyboard the \ is harder to type than the /, so that is no perfect standard.

Yet another disadvantage is that v2 of e.g. ES^2 doesn't look good. OS/2 Warp was already better than OS/2 4. Unless you are targetting engineers loving and recognizing exponential formulas, obviously. "Mum" ain't no certified engineer... ;)
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on December 03, 2018, 09:16:20 pm
In the midst of the confusion I'll keep them as ES/1 and ES/2.  Plenty of time for names later.  Maybe I'll call it Taligent, but with four Ms and a silent Q. :-)
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: André Heldoorn on December 04, 2018, 01:42:01 pm
four Ms :-)
Dunno... Looks like "for Microsoft" to me... ;-)

I'm not going to suggest alternatives, even if /2 still suggests the 32 bits of OS/2 and /1 may be its even older 16 bits version. It's your baby, and all we've got is a name.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: Bogdan on December 04, 2018, 04:35:17 pm
Will this ES/1 run on my old IBM Series/1 machine or only in conjunction with an Personal System/1 programmable workstation? Which support of DL/1 and PL/1 will be supplied?

IBM's OS/2 was designed for the Personal System/2 (PS/2). It runs also on XT286 and AT machines, so the label was quite misleading. Microsoft simply renamed OS/2 3.0 to Windows NT and raised the revision number by one. And now they're using simply the Windows or Windows Server brand for versions later than 6.x.

You should better use an acronym like EBICP/SE (Extended Binary Incompatible Control Program/System Extension). Everybody likes PCMCIA, DFDSM, DISOSS or EHLLAPI. Short acronyms like APAR or RACF are not popular and should be avoided.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on December 04, 2018, 10:05:44 pm
four Ms :-)
Dunno... Looks like "for Microsoft" to me... ;-)

That's a reference to a Monty Python skit called "The Book Shop" IIRC.  It's John Cleese's character getting upset over the man requesting books with alternate spellings, like "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dikkens (the well-known Dutch author), and so on.  Finally, Cleese's character says, "Or even 'Stickwick Stapers' by Farles Wickens with four M's and a silent Q!!  Why don't you try W.H. Smith's?"  "Funny.  They sent me here."  "Did they?"

Very funny.

UPDATE:  I just remembered on the way in to work that it was "A Christmas Karol" (with a K) by Edmund Wells (the well-known Dutch author).  The reference to Charles Dikkens was for "David Kopperfield".  I think.  I haven't heard that skit in many years.  Pulling it from memory. :-)

Quote
I'm not going to suggest alternatives, even if /2 still suggests the 32 bits of OS/2 and /1 may be its even older 16 bits version. It's your baby, and all we've got is a name.

How about SuperOS! :-)  Or HeroOS!  I remember "Hiro" from a Thomas the Train episode.  Maybe HiroOS! :-)

I know ... I know there's a name ... out there ... somewhere.  We just have to find it.
Title: Re: ES/2 will be renamed e/OS2
Post by: RickCHodgin on December 04, 2018, 10:10:19 pm
Will this ES/1 run on my old IBM Series/1 machine or only in conjunction with an Personal System/1 programmable workstation? Which support of DL/1 and PL/1 will be supplied?

It will run on any traditional BIOS machine with VESA video support, CHS or LBA disk access, and PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports or emulation through BIOS, giving a DOS-like environment, but instead of text-based console windows it will be graphical console windows and a true 32-bit programming environment.  It will also offer a limited version of a type of Presentation Manager for traditional graphics apps, but very lightweight.  I do want the desktop to have a similar feel to OS/2, so it will be familiar to OS/2 users.

Quote
IBM's OS/2 was designed for the Personal System/2 (PS/2). It runs also on XT286 and AT machines, so the label was quite misleading. Microsoft simply renamed OS/2 3.0 to Windows NT and raised the revision number by one. And now they're using simply the Windows or Windows Server brand for versions later than 6.x.

You should better use an acronym like EBICP/SE (Extended Binary Incompatible Control Program/System Extension). Everybody likes PCMCIA, DFDSM, DISOSS or EHLLAPI. Short acronyms like APAR or RACF are not popular and should be avoided.

:-)  I know there's a name out there.  I'll stumble across it.  For now, I'll keep the ES/1 and ES/2 as they're just codenames for the work I suppose.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to proceed because I ran into that 640 KB barrier very quickly.  A few paths ahead, most of them difficult. :-)