Author Topic: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization  (Read 27812 times)

Dave Yeo

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2022, 06:24:06 pm »
Is there interest? Basically have to use the VESA driver and all the apps are so old.
The problem with XFree86 is they changed the licensing, making it incompatible with the GPL, which is why everyone moved away.
Looking, it looks like Xorg 6.9 was the last to use the imakefile style of building and still had the OS/2 code in it. With v7 they went to a configure build system, haven't looked to see if OS/2 code was still there but it would be hard to build compatible libs as all functions were exported by ordinal and there was basically a database of ordinals to keep the DLLs backwards compatible.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2022, 06:44:57 pm »
Is there interest? Basically have to use the VESA driver and all the apps are so old.
The problem with XFree86 is they changed the licensing, making it incompatible with the GPL, which is why everyone moved away.
Looking, it looks like Xorg 6.9 was the last to use the imakefile style of building and still had the OS/2 code in it. With v7 they went to a configure build system, haven't looked to see if OS/2 code was still there but it would be hard to build compatible libs as all functions were exported by ordinal and there was basically a database of ordinals to keep the DLLs backwards compatible.

For what I know the only killer application on XFree86 is an old GIMP ported there.  But I'm not a reference for the X11 use on OS/2, I don't know much about it.

Just in case, in Hobbes, the X11 applications had been marked with "(X11)" so it can be easily found on the site.

I think this port will be interesting only depeding on the time efforts. If it is going to take too much time to port XFree86 or Xorg, it will be better just to set it to rest. But if it can be quick port and show some results, it may be good to generate interest.

Usually when someone ports a library or a framework, it requires the "Killer App" to accompany it. Like for RUST is Firefox, for our Qt 5 is the Modern browser, for XFree86 or xorg maybe The GIMP will be the killer app.

Regards
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 06:56:38 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2022, 04:36:09 pm »
Hi

I think that in this hobbes folder ( /pub/os2/apps/wp/tex/util) there is a confusion between LaTeX and GNU texinfo. I don't have deeper knowledge of any of those, but I think I just need to put the LaTeX related utilities here "/pub/os2/apps/wp/tex/uti" and move the GNU textinfo utilities somewhere else, maybe to "/pub/os2/dev/tools/help".

Or maybe there will be a better idea on were to located this software. Suggestion are welcome.

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Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2022, 10:21:43 pm »
Hi Martin,

let me put some light on this at first: The base group for both should be tex (usually written as TeX). TeXInfo is one dialect and LaTeX is another. Both base on TeX, where TeXInfo is - probably due to its age - only sightly changed. TeXInfo is completely TeX and has nothing to do with LaTeX.

LaTeX is broadly used, not only for manuals. It is a very powerful macro package for TeX and is far more easy to use. It receives continues updates for both its kernel and its numerous additional macro packages. While the height of LaTeX has probably passed, the typesetting quality of its output is still by far not reached by anything else.

At least all LaTeX tools should be placed in a LaTeX subdir, not TeX. The same applies for TeXInfo, while there are probably fewer tools.

More to come, after I hd a look at that.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2022, 10:47:34 pm »
Thanks Andreas for the explanation. I don't use of those, so I apreciate your knowledge.

Take a look and let me know.

What I will like to resolve is:
- Is "/pub/os2/apps/wp/tex" still a good place for all TeX stuff? including LaTeX and TeXInfo?
- or should we separete LaTeX stuff from TeXInfo ?
- Or should I stick to "/pub/os2/apps/wp/tex" and "/pub/os2/apps/wp/tex/"

I just trying to find the right place.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #155 on: July 30, 2022, 12:00:46 am »
TeX and especially LaTeX can be seen in competition to other "wordprocessing" systems. TeX is a typesetting system. It's more DTP than wordprocessing. But even the actual DTP programs all have problems to reach the quality of LaTeX texts.

But "wp" is probably the best solution for it. BTW: It's about finding files, nothing else. While the Hobbes files probably show their age, I had always used the CTAN servers in favor of it. You'll find also the aged OS/2 software there. The newest ones that we have are the latest VTeX 8.44.2 and teTeX 3.0. Both are extremely outdated. More easy to use is probably OS2TeX, but also older and less complete. And it's (abandoned?) shareware.

EmTeX is a completely outdated package for DOS. IIRC its apps were compiled with emx in family mode, at least in earlier days. Note the "em" (Eberhard Mattes) prefix for both. Later versions include a PM DVI "previewer". It was the best we had while the actual LaTeX version was 2.09. In the meantime there were many tries to bring LaTeX to 3.0, but it still sticks at version 2e, since ages. In the times where 2e was relesed, the extension eTeX for Kuth's ingenious TeX came out. It's still not a full requirement for LaTeX 2e, but as I've just read, it's almost done.

For OS/2 we have a recent system for editing and viewing: TeXstudio (ecsoft2) and TeXStudio (Wikipedia), ported with Qt. (The screenshot on the German page is the best, but there exist also e.g. Spanish, English and Ukrainian.) But all of them require a TeX (LaTeX) subsystem. That is probably far superior to other editing solutions, like e.g. EPM (or NEPMD) with TeX Front End and e.g. Ghostscript as previewer.

While creating texts is obviously still possible, newer ones use more packages, where we don't have a recent OS/2 port for. E.g. Beamer uses PGF/TikZ and the versions that Beamer requires are not contained in our outdated VTeX. I had first seen Beamer slides by Adrian and have then copied that for a WSE presentation. But (unfortunately?) in my current job I don't have a need for it anymore.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 01:00:30 am by Andreas Schnellbacher »

fusion

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #156 on: July 30, 2022, 04:29:55 am »
I have to say this is a bit of a shame. 20+ years worth of links on the Internet to the Hobbes archive don't work anymore. Several archives on Hobbes also have text files in them referencing other files on Hobbes by filename, which can no longer be searched since most of the names have been changed.

Would have been better to create a new index referencing into the old structure or something. As it is now, I've been using one of the mirrors listed in the main page to find the files with their correct filenames. And I have the original directory structure memorized..

Ah well..

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #157 on: July 30, 2022, 05:11:55 am »
Hi Fusion.

I have to say this is a bit of a shame. 20+ years worth of links on the Internet to the Hobbes archive don't work anymore. Several files on Hobbes also have text files in them referencing other files on Hobbes by filename, which can no longer be searched since most of the names have been changed.

Would have been better to create a new index referencing into the old structure or something. As it is now, I've been using one of the mirrors listed in the main page to find the files with their correct filenames. And I have the original directory structure memorized..

Ah well..

I respect your opinion, but hobbes needed a refresh trying to remove unnecessary versions of the same software, duplicated files, wrong located files and with issues with filenames that didn't mean anything at all for the people surfing the site.
Ex: There was files called "os2.zip" and "warp.zip" that did not give you any hint what and which version that people were downloading. 
I personally think that the "20+ years worth of links on the Internet" are disappearing at a very fast speed with all the OS/2 sites that get erased day after day.

Also I had been including the original file name on the long description so the name can be indexed on search engines in case of someone looking for those. I'm also trying my best to include the full name, version and release date of each file, that is searchable on the hobbes site, so, if the filename does not work you can search the name of the software and mostly it will give you a search result.

If you prefer to have the old names, you can get the hobbes backup on archive.org at: https://archive.org/download/hobbes-archive-2020-02/ and hopefully it will be there forever.

Regards
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 03:57:27 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Dave Yeo

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #158 on: July 30, 2022, 07:02:46 am »
I have to say this is a bit of a shame. 20+ years worth of links on the Internet to the Hobbes archive don't work anymore. Several archives on Hobbes also have text files in them referencing other files on Hobbes by filename, which can no longer be searched since most of the names have been changed.

Would have been better to create a new index referencing into the old structure or something. As it is now, I've been using one of the mirrors listed in the main page to find the files with their correct filenames. And I have the original directory structure memorized..

Ah well..

The Hobbes maintainers themselves changed things a couple of years back and broke everything, then they went to HTTPS which also broke all links.
Personally when posting a link in a readme etc I try to use a search term, which helps until Hobbes changes again. Remember it's main purpose is a teaching tool at a university.

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Hobbes (Files) Reoganization
« Reply #159 on: July 30, 2022, 02:35:11 pm »
Good points, Dave. I support Martin's changes and had myself to adapt Hobbes and other links multiple times. Unfortunately links are not static. Note that Ian not only hosts files from everywhere, but also several old mirrored servers, including Hobbes from 2020.