Try connecting a USB joystick with analog sticks and it will improperly be recognized as a mouse & be generally ineffective for usage.
Hi
You will probably find the IBM usbhid driver is written to the usb specs but hardware supplied for Windows does not necessarily follow those specs and in such cases provides some sort of driver to make the hardware work.
Regards
Pete
Hi,
I wonder if the new stylus/tablet driver (see Sigurd's Lenovo...) can be a basis to develop something suitable for USB joysticks... but then... how many people are actually using USB joysticks with eCS?
(Sorry if that sounds ignorant... I am honestly wondering!)
Cheers,
Thomas
Quote from: Pete on 2010.11.23, 16:34:26
Hi
You will probably find the IBM usbhid driver is written to the usb specs but hardware supplied for Windows does not necessarily follow those specs and in such cases provides some sort of driver to make the hardware work.
Regards
Pete
What's more likely is that the HID driver was written before the world was flooded with USB joysticks. I've found the same issue with another OS that I love (Syllable). When I looked through the source for it, I found that they'd done a half-ass port of the Linux HID driver. Now, I know that OS/2's HID driver probably isn't based on any of the concepts in the Linux driver. But I also know that IBM stopped updating most of OS/2 before people were using more types of USB input devices than just mice & keyboards. Since I've poured through the code of HID drivers before & I've read the spec over & over, I can tell you that the driver in question probably doesn't implement collections & usage pages properly. It also probably doesn't implement push & pop functions either.
Quote from: warpcafe on 2010.11.23, 18:40:41
Hi,
I wonder if the new stylus/tablet driver (see Sigurd's Lenovo...) can be a basis to develop something suitable for USB joysticks... but then... how many people are actually using USB joysticks with eCS?
(Sorry if that sounds ignorant... I am honestly wondering!)
Cheers,
Thomas
What matters isn't how many that're doing it today. What matters is making sure that it works when they actually do it. Unless things like this are fixed, it's going to be harder to grow our community numbers. I'm a realist & I'm sure that OS/2 won't overtake Windows in my lifetime. But, that doesn't mean that we can't increase our user base. People like to play with OS's that don't look too dated & that they can play some of their favorite types of games on with a little hassle as possible. So, why have unnecessary hassles?
My first comment is, that probably nobody is using USB joysticks, since the probably won't work.
QuoteWhat matters is making sure that it works when they actually do it. Unless things like this are fixed, it's going to be harder to grow our community numbers.
There are hundreds of things that are far more important that joysticks, and not enough people working on making them work. We need either a couple of hundred, volunteer, expert programers, or we need a few million dollars to hire them. Fortunately, those who do volunteer their time, are pretty good at what they do, but there are still only 24 hours in a day. Mensys does put money into hiring programers to do some of the really important things (like support for network adapters), USB support is, apparently, on the ToDo list, but I suspect that it is far down on that list.
Okay, here is a challenge for YOU. There is a package at HOBBES called usbecd10.zip. It contains a driver for "unknown" devices, and it supplies the basic access methods for read and write to the device. There is also a (windows) tool at http://sourceforge.net/projects/usbsnoop/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/usbsnoop/) that will trace exactly what a USB device does. Between the two, and some serious work, it should be possible to develop something that will make the device work. Have fun...
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.23, 20:40:15
My first comment is, that probably nobody is using USB joysticks, since the probably won't work.
QuoteWhat matters is making sure that it works when they actually do it. Unless things like this are fixed, it's going to be harder to grow our community numbers.
There are hundreds of things that are far more important that joysticks, and not enough people working on making them work. We need either a couple of hundred, volunteer, expert programers, or we need a few million dollars to hire them. Fortunately, those who do volunteer their time, are pretty good at what they do, but there are still only 24 hours in a day. Mensys does put money into hiring programers to do some of the really important things (like support for network adapters), USB support is, apparently, on the ToDo list, but I suspect that it is far down on that list.
Okay, here is a challenge for YOU. There is a package at HOBBES called usbecd10.zip. It contains a driver for "unknown" devices, and it supplies the basic access methods for read and write to the device. There is also a (windows) tool at http://sourceforge.net/projects/usbsnoop/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/usbsnoop/) that will trace exactly what a USB device does. Between the two, and some serious work, it should be possible to develop something that will make the device work. Have fun...
Your first comment: Chicken or the egg?
Your second comment: I already know what it's doing, I don't need a trace device to figure that out. It's only parsing part of the HID protocol & assuming that the data is for either a keyboard or joystick based on simplistic guidelines that aren't realistic. If it bothered to implement the whole protocol for HID's then there wouldn't be an issue. Also, all things are important, not just network adapters & the like. These are things that will never be complete anyway, since devices will always become outdated when new devices are created.
As far as your challenge, my hands are full with the OS/2 OpenGL stack rewrite including hardware acceleration. I'm not one of those guys who whines & waits for someone to do the work for them. I'm one of those guys who jumps in & starts working, then tries to see if he can get a few others to do the same. Also, assuming this rewrite is successful, adapting another kernel for OS/2 usage is next on my list.
Quote from: demetrioussharpe on 2010.11.23, 21:49:03
What's more likely is that the HID driver was written before the world was flooded with USB joysticks.
OS/2's USB drivers suck big time. They were written at a time, when USB was rather new and IBM's the later update policy was to support only devices for which they had an immediate requirement (business case). Thus, in most of the cases it's not the fault of the device doing "non-standard" things. It's the USB stack, that is to blame.
Quote from: demetrioussharpe on 2010.11.23, 21:49:03
I already know what it's doing, I don't need a trace device to figure that out. It's only parsing part of the HID protocol & assuming that the data is for either a keyboard or joystick based on simplistic guidelines that aren't realistic.
Actually this is not the whole story. The HID drive is parsing the HID protocol reasonably well. When a device is attached, it then asks it's clients if one of them might feel responsible for serving this device. Since there is no joystick client driver installed and your device seems to offer a mouse-like interface, the USB mouse driver claims it. If it does this right is another story. ISTR, that there used to be an USB joystick driver around, but don't remember it's name and where to find it. Of course, you also need applications that make use of it.
As for the mentioned "usbecd10.zip" on HOBBES: I strongly suggest to support devices that conform to a standard class by a real driver instead of a ring3 hack.
I'm surprised that it's not using one HID driver with subfunctions for the different types of HIDs. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It probably couldn't be done optimally on OS/2.
Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.24, 11:57:44
Actually this is not the whole story. The HID drive is parsing the HID protocol reasonably well. When a device is attached, it then asks it's clients if one of them might feel responsible for serving this device. Since there is no joystick client driver installed and your device seems to offer a mouse-like interface, the USB mouse driver claims it. If it does this right is another story. ISTR, that there used to be an USB joystick driver around, but don't remember it's name and where to find it. Of course, you also need applications that make use of it.
Right now's probably a good time to develop a new API for joystick usage. If I can't find that driver or it's author, I guess I'll have to look into porting one from another OS. Is there anyone else interested in such a driver?
Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.24, 11:57:44
ISTR, that there used to be an USB joystick driver around, but don't remember it's name and where to find it. Of course, you also need applications that make use of it.
It is/was on the netlabs cvs. There is now a svn repository:
http://svn.netlabs.org/usb
that I think is where the work Mensys is doing towards USB support is done... it may or may not include the genjoy (which is what I recall the USB joystick driver was called) code from CVS (requires an ID and password for code access and mine has not been authorized). I have the cvs code that I zipped up in 2004, I think the last code update was around 2001. There was a much more functional version that was reported to have been developed but the developers machine was stolen.
abwillis has hit the head right on the nail... here's the old discussion group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ejoyos2/
And the old page for it was located on OS/2 World but is now long gone.
- USB Joysticks: http://www.os2world.com/usb/html/joysticks.html
As Martin and Andy are both active in these forums, they may be able to answer any particular questions on the project - then again, it's been kinda dead for a while.
-R
Quote
Your second comment: I already know what it's doing, I don't need a trace device to figure that out. It's only parsing part of the HID protocol & assuming that the data is for either a keyboard or joystick based on simplistic guidelines that aren't realistic. If it bothered to implement the whole protocol for HID's then there wouldn't be an issue. Also, all things are important, not just network adapters & the like. These are things that will never be complete anyway, since devices will always become outdated when new devices are created.
I suggested "usbecd10.zip" because it will install a driver that will take control of the device. What happens after that is up to whatever program you attach to the driver. IBM's implementation is far from complete, and nobody has found the time, or the interest, to update it. Whether joysticks are important, or not, is in the hands of the user. Personally, the last joystick I ever considered using, was one that I built myself, back in about 1982, for my original IBM PC. It worked well, but was just about the most useless piece of hardware that I ever owned. I really don't want to see good programing talent going to waste on joysticks, when accelerated video, is no longer available, JAVA 6 is not, yet available, many printers are not supported, large disk drives are waiting for support, AHCI disk controllers are not, yet, supported, and so on. It seems to me, that joysticks are WAAAY down on the list of necessary items. Besides, what would you use it for?
QuoteAs for the mentioned "usbecd10.zip" on HOBBES: I strongly suggest to support devices that conform to a standard class by a real driver instead of a ring3 hack.
I don't think that driver is any more of a hack than any other driver is. It is simply an open ended attachment to a raw USB device. It does give the user the option to write their own program to do whatever is required to make the device work. There is a supplied REXX library, but there is also documentation on how to use it with other programing languages. Backupsmon uses it to control Uninterruptable power supplies, and it is also used with the Canon 4400F scanner driver. If the source was available for that driver (perhaps it is), it might help to make more USB devices work. The USBSNOOP program gives the user a tool to see, exactly, what the device needs to "see" for it to work. With a lot of work, I suspect that any USB device could be made to work, with nothing more than the current USB stack.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.24, 20:11:04
Backupsmon uses it to control Uninterruptable power supplies ...
Which is fundamentally wrong because UPS devices are supposed to comply to
the HID standard (see http://www.usb.org/developers/hidpage#HID_Usage). The
way Backupsmon is implemented is just a hack to make it kinda work. Not how it
should be done. A correct implementation would be able to work with most UPS
devices in a generic way by interpreting the HID descriptors in order to find out
which bit in which data packet has which functionality. In contrast, the author of
Backupsmon has monitored data packets from some UPS model(s) and figured
out the meaning of a few of the status bits. This works only for a very limited
number of devices, because a manufacturer is free change the layout of the
HID reports depending on model, firmware revision or whatever. Not to talk
about different manufacturers.
I haven't looked a the tool for quite a while, but last time I checked it could not
read values like current line voltage, remaining battery capacity, current UPS
load, battery replace date etc. This all can be done in a generic way i.e. without
the driver being hardcoded to support only model Abc by manufacturer Xyz.
Quote from: abwillis on 2010.11.24, 18:01:38
Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.24, 11:57:44
ISTR, that there used to be an USB joystick driver around, but don't remember it's name and where to find it. Of course, you also need applications that make use of it.
It is/was on the netlabs cvs. There is now a svn repository:
http://svn.netlabs.org/usb
that I think is where the work Mensys is doing towards USB support is done... it may or may not include the genjoy (which is what I recall the USB joystick driver was called) code from CVS (requires an ID and password for code access and mine has not been authorized). I have the cvs code that I zipped up in 2004, I think the last code update was around 2001. There was a much more functional version that was reported to have been developed but the developers machine was stolen.
Yeh, I can't seem to access the svn version, no password.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.24, 20:11:04
I really don't want to see good programing talent going to waste on joysticks, when accelerated video, is no longer available, JAVA 6 is not, yet available, many printers are not supported, large disk drives are waiting for support, AHCI disk controllers are not, yet, supported, and so on. It seems to me, that joysticks are WAAAY down on the list of necessary items. Besides, what would you use it for?
Accelerated 3d is in the works. I really don't foresee an accelerated solution that takes full advantage of video cards until the kernel & the whole graphics stack is replaced. I like the layout of the stack, but we need a stack that we have the code for & can extend. Truth be told, we need a less convoluted driver API that isn't trying to be some hybrid 16/32-bit abomination.
There's gotta already be an open source java 6 project. We just need a programmer who's on our team to either join the project or port it him/herself.
Large disks, it's really time for a new kernel & device driver stack first.
AHCI, see java 6.
Printers, grab the source to CUPS & see java 6.
Joysticks aren't necessary for a working, modern OS/2. However, if anyone wants the OS/2 community to grow, you have to realize that people don't move to a platform that they can write emails on & browse the net if there's no chance for them to enjoy some of the games that they also play on other platforms. We can't afford to have the "all work & no play" mentality here. Who cares if we can print, use java, or some of the other things if we don't cover some of the more simple, basic things.
What just happened? Did we just loose page 1 of this topic???
Thanks, Robert!
Mensys has the JAVA 6 project under way, with some progress. AHCI is also under way in the Dani driver project, but nothing yet. CUPS is addressing the printer problem, but is far from satisfactory, so far. ACPI is turning into a farce, especially for those of us who have AMD processors, and you want to play games?
Yes, I know where you are coming from, but as I said, there are a LOT of things that need to be fixed before anybody even thinks about making a joystick work. If the basic OS won't work, games quickly become a non issue.
QuoteWho cares if we can print, use java, or some of the other things if we don't cover some of the more simple, basic things.
Well, that is quite a statement. Without JAVA, half the world can't log into their bank accounts. While I sort of agree with you about printing (back in the early 1980's some bigwig in IBM told us that printers would be obsolete by 1990 - but then look what they did with OS/2), I don't think you will convince most users that printing isn't more important than having support for a joystick.
You have some interesting comments on kernels. If the kernel does get developed (and I think that is a big IF), the rest could follow. However, it seems that the project has been under way for some time, and there isn't a lot to show for it, yet. It all comes down the the problem where there are not enough programers, and those programers who are working on it are still subject to 24 hours days (plus a lot of them need to have a job to support their families). The rest of the "dream on" stuff would have to come after the kernel is developed, which will add another, significant, amount of time to get to the end result. Meanwhile, Joystick support is probably the last thing on most people's minds, but don't let that discourage you, if you want to do it. I would rather that I could use JAVA with OpenOffice, or Firefox.
Quote from: demetrioussharpe on 2010.11.25, 01:11:34
Yeh, I can't seem to access the svn version, no password.
I can tell you, that the joystick driver is not in this repository. I have no idea, where the source code is. If it ever was hosted at Netlabs, then Adrian (alias "ktk") might know. There also used to be a Warpstock presentation by Markus Montkowski, which described certain concepts of HID operation on OS/2 by a sample joystick driver. Also no idea if this information is still available. Markus quit doing OS/2 stuff a long time ago...
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
Mensys has the JAVA 6 project under way, with some progress.
just a little remark on that. Mensys is not doing the project. Mensys is only the main sponsor of it. And of course Mozilla and OpenOffice plugins are planed.
and as a last, if you look at svn.netlabs.org/java you see all the progress this project is doing.
regards
Silvan
Java project lead
Quote from: diver on 2010.11.25, 11:00:18
if you look at svn.netlabs.org/java you see all the progress this project is doing.
regards
Silvan
Java project lead
Make that http://svn.netlabs.org/java so people can directly click the link ;)
Joachim
Hi,
Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.25, 09:18:52
There also used to be a Warpstock presentation by Markus Montkowski, which described certain concepts of HID operation on OS/2 by a sample joystick driver. Also no idea if this information is still available. Markus quit doing OS/2 stuff a long time ago...
Was that perhaps the Diepenbeek (2001 IIRC) Warpstock Europe?
In this case the slides (if any) should be availabkle somewhere... let me see if I can dig them out from a handout CD or some web archive once I'm back home... will post here if I find something. Cheers,
Thomas
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
...Yes, I know where you are coming from, but as I said, there are a LOT of things that need to be fixed before anybody even thinks about making a joystick work. If the basic OS won't work, games quickly become a non issue.
I think you fail to realize how people who don't already use OS/2 view it. Sure, OS/2 need more important things. But it also needs these things as well. Unless you want to continue to relegate OS/2 to the corporate world & neglect the home user, youve gotta realize that modern users aren't going to switch to OS/2 based on Java or printing, they can do that already with Windows, Linux, BSD, MacOS X, Solaris & almost every other OS. You're really going to have something a lot more compelling. It's the same basic problem as why Plan9 was never able to replace Unix; Unix was good enough, there wasn't a compelling reason to unseat it.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
Well, that is quite a statement. Without JAVA, half the world can't log into their bank accounts. While I sort of agree with you about printing (back in the early 1980's some bigwig in IBM told us that printers would be obsolete by 1990 - but then look what they did with OS/2), I don't think you will convince most users that printing isn't more important than having support for a joystick.
I don't think you'll convince users to switch to OS/2 based on printers.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
You have some interesting comments on kernels. If the kernel does get developed (and I think that is a big IF), the rest could follow. However, it seems that the project has been under way for some time, and there isn't a lot to show for it, yet. It all comes down the the problem where there are not enough programers, and those programers who are working on it are still subject to 24 hours days (plus a lot of them need to have a job to support their families). The rest of the "dream on" stuff would have to come after the kernel is developed, which will add another, significant, amount of time to get to the end result. Meanwhile, Joystick support is probably the last thing on most people's minds, but don't let that discourage you, if you want to do it. I would rather that I could use JAVA with OpenOffice, or Firefox.
Perhaps you would, but you might want to remember that it was DirectX that helped Win95 unseat DOS.
Quote from: warpcafe on 2010.11.25, 11:46:31
Hi,
Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.25, 09:18:52
There also used to be a Warpstock presentation by Markus Montkowski, which described certain concepts of HID operation on OS/2 by a sample joystick driver. Also no idea if this information is still available. Markus quit doing OS/2 stuff a long time ago...
Was that perhaps the Diepenbeek (2001 IIRC) Warpstock Europe?
In this case the slides (if any) should be availabkle somewhere... let me see if I can dig them out from a handout CD or some web archive once I'm back home... will post here if I find something. Cheers,
Thomas
Thanks!
Quote from: warpcafe on 2010.11.25, 11:46:31
Was that perhaps the Diepenbeek (2001 IIRC) Warpstock Europe?
I was referring to this one: http://www2.warpstock.org/2000/presentations/programming.html#prg06
However, he might have given that presentation - maybe even in an improved version - at Warpstock Europe as well.
QuoteBut it also needs these things as well.
Well, get at it. It seems that you know how to do these things. I don't, and most users don't. As I said before, there are not enough programers to go around, and there are still only 24 hours in a day. If the OS can't even print, we will lose the corporate world, and they are the ones who are keeping OS/2 alive, at the moment.
Quoteyouve gotta realize that modern users aren't going to switch to OS/2 based on Java or printing,
They aren't going to stay with it if it doesn't have those things. Joysticks are usable with games, There is no way that enough games will ever get ported to OS/2 to make a joystick really useful. Anybody who wants to play games is going to use windows. That is the one thing that windows is good for, and that seems to be where the most development money goes. We can never hope to even scratch the surface on that front.
QuoteI don't think you'll convince users to switch to OS/2 based on printers.
No, but they surely won't switch to, or stay with, an OS that can't even print.
I use "printing" as one example of many things that OS/2 is lacking.
Quotebut you might want to remember that it was DirectX that helped Win95 unseat DOS.
And, it was DirectX that unseated OS/2 too (with more than a little help from IBM). The only way to combat that, is to write our own DirectX, but that would probably result in huge, very expensive, lawsuits, even if it was possible. OS/2 has it's own niche market. and games are not a part of that market. To take even a very small part of that would take a horrendous amount of very hard work, by more people than are available to do it, and you still need to do the basics (printing, JAVA), or it is all for nothing.
OS/2 has always been acknowledged as a solid OS that people use to get work done. It never was a gaming system, and I expect that it never will be (Linux isn't either). Sure some games do work with it, but they are not the serious (dare I use that term?) games that are written for windows.Then again, if Odin (or one of it's like) could be expanded to cover all of the required parts, it may actually be possible to run some of the games, and then the joystick support might be useful. Odin seems to be close to a dead end (to few interested developers), so I don't expect that to happen. Not only is it unlikely to happen, but anyone who wastes their time trying to make it happen, takes away one more programer that is vitally needed to make things like printers work.
It's all a matter of priorities. Make the fluff work, or make the basics work. Take your pick. Without the basics, the fluff doesn't matter.
BTW, by "joystick" I assume you really mean one of those game controllers, with 15 buttons, and a couple of sticks. I am not even sure if an old style joystick is still available, and I am even less sure what it would be good for.
Re: JAVA 6:
Quotejust a little remark on that. Mensys is not doing the project. Mensys is only the main sponsor of it
Ah yes, I knew that, Sorry...
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 19:24:31
Well, get at it. It seems that you know how to do these things. I don't, and most users don't. As I said before, there are not enough programers to go around, and there are still only 24 hours in a day. If the OS can't even print, we will lose the corporate world, and they are the ones who are keeping OS/2 alive, at the moment.
My hands are a bit full at the moment with GL/2 & a few other things that I'm not ready to announce yet. As for the corporate world, that's all well & good for now, but eventually, that well is going to run dry. The basis of what I'm saying is that we have to take the future of OS/2 into our own hands. The corporate world is only going to keep OS/2 around as long as there's something in it for them. What do you supposed is going to happen when they can't use OS/2 anymore after one of their hardware upgrades? Not all of my work is based on gaming. Some of my work is more serious. But, like you said, there's only 24hrs a day & I'm a full time soldier. There's only so much that I can do.
Quote
They aren't going to stay with it if it doesn't have those things. Joysticks are usable with games, There is no way that enough games will ever get ported to OS/2 to make a joystick really useful. Anybody who wants to play games is going to use windows. That is the one thing that windows is good for, and that seems to be where the most development money goes. We can never hope to even scratch the surface on that front.
Yes, joysticks are good for games. But there're also good for other things. Consider the other areas that it would be great to get OS/2, eCS, or a future version to get integrated into. Perhaps even robotics, you never know unless you try.
QuoteNo, but they surely won't switch to, or stay with, an OS that can't even print.
I use "printing" as one example of many things that OS/2 is lacking.
Well, if OS/2 can't print & if there aren't enough developers to help out in that goal, then perhaps it's time for new developers to be created. The source is out there & the development tools are free. Learning resources are freely available online & can be found anywhere. So, how bad do you want printing support???
QuoteAnd, it was DirectX that unseated OS/2 too (with more than a little help from IBM). The only way to combat that, is to write our own DirectX, but that would probably result in huge, very expensive, lawsuits, even if it was possible. OS/2 has it's own niche market. and games are not a part of that market. To take even a very small part of that would take a horrendous amount of very hard work, by more people than are available to do it, and you still need to do the basics (printing, JAVA), or it is all for nothing.
We don't have to have DirectX specifically, but we need something. Sure, IBM was holding the hammers & nails for OS/2's coffin, just like everyone else, but that doesn't mean that we have to get into the coffin. Niche markets are fine, but they don't last forever. As far as the hard work, all it takes is people who're willing to meet in the middle. I'll bring the sandwiches, you bring the drinks, & someone else brings the music, now we have a party.
QuoteOS/2 has always been acknowledged as a solid OS that people use to get work done. It never was a gaming system, and I expect that it never will be (Linux isn't either). Sure some games do work with it, but they are not the serious (dare I use that term?) games that are written for windows.Then again, if Odin (or one of it's like) could be expanded to cover all of the required parts, it may actually be possible to run some of the games, and then the joystick support might be useful. Odin seems to be close to a dead end (to few interested developers), so I don't expect that to happen. Not only is it unlikely to happen, but anyone who wastes their time trying to make it happen, takes away one more programer that is vitally needed to make things like printers work.
The OS graveyard is full of solid OS's, so being solid doesn't mean a whole lot. Afterall, look at the situation that OS/2 is in now. We can't afford to lay blame & point fingers, we also don't have the time. Even if Odin was usable, we'd still need a joystick API to hook it into. As for one more programmer being taken away, take personal responsibility for adding one more programmer.
QuoteIt's all a matter of priorities. Make the fluff work, or make the basics work. Take your pick. Without the basics, the fluff doesn't matter.
The thing about most pieces of fluff is that it's usually simple & only has to be done once, then it's done. As for priorities, my priority is for it ALL to work. There's no picking & choosing. Just because you can live without your ears, doesn't mean that your ears are not important.
QuoteBTW, by "joystick" I assume you really mean one of those game controllers, with 15 buttons, and a couple of sticks. I am not even sure if an old style joystick is still available, and I am even less sure what it would be good for.
These days, we don't have to worry about the old-school joysticks. Most modern devices will be connected by USB & will have way more functionality than their predecessors.
QuoteMy hands are a bit full at the moment
QuoteThere's only so much that I can do
Exactly my point. YOU have higher priorities, so it isn't likely to happen, unless somebody else wants to take it on, and most of those who are capable, are alresdy up to their ears in work.
QuoteAs for the corporate world, that's all well & good for now, but eventually, that well is going to run dry
It will if they can't use a modern browser (exists) with JAVA support, and probably FLASH. Hopefully, that stuff is not too far off. One other thing that *might* cause a problem, would be a new, unproven, kernel. Corporations, and governments, are somewhat skitish about things like that, and it is one of the reasons why many of them have not moved to Linux. Even more work to do...
Quoteyou never know unless you try.
That is true. The problem is that few have either the interest, or the time, to try.
Quotethen perhaps it's time for new developers to be created.
That would be great. I have done some programing, but I find that i am not able to concentrate enough to do it successfully. I spend a LOT more time reading the docs, and experimenting to get it to work, than I do actually accomplishing anything. So, I have decided to stick with REXX, and I am learning how to use DrDialog. It still takes ages to accomplish anything. I also do a lot of resting for the PMMail project (not enough to prevent users from finding problems, but I try). I also do some of the support for PMMail.
QuoteI'll bring the sandwiches, you bring the drinks, & someone else brings the music, now we have a party
Great idea. Where do we find the guy with the music? I suppose we can get along without it though.
Quoteust because you can live without your ears, doesn't mean that your ears are not important.
Ears aren't very important, if you have no head to hang them on.
Don't get me wrong, I believe every word that you write, but I am also a realist, and I know that we can't do it all. At the moment, OS/2 is in heavy duty survival mode, and there are not enough people to go around. If one must cut off the ears to ensure the survival of the patient, one must do that. New ears can be added later, once the recovery is made. Of course, if you want a break from your other projects, a joystick driver might be something that somebody, somewhere, might use.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 23:00:29
Exactly my point. YOU have higher priorities, so it isn't likely to happen, unless somebody else wants to take it on, and most of those who are capable, are already up to their ears in work.
Had I not started the GL/2 work first, I may've jumped right into the joystick problem. Not only do we need a fairly universal joystick driver, we also need a useful framework API to access it. Consider all of that as part of my TODO list. One of my main objectives is to make it easier to bring modern interactive entertainment to OS/2. From my end, this includes OpenGL, OpenAL, joysticks, an input framework for accessing joysticks, & possibly the OSS sound drivers & framework. Some of those are actually easier to do than others, so I may arrange my TODO list by order of difficulty level.
QuoteIt will if they can't use a modern browser (exists) with JAVA support, and probably FLASH. Hopefully, that stuff is not too far off. One other thing that *might* cause a problem, would be a new, unproven, kernel. Corporations, and governments, are somewhat skitish about things like that, and it is one of the reasons why many of them have not moved to Linux. Even more work to do...
Unfortunately, I'm a bit lower on the development stack. I stay at the system level. Others will have to take up the mantle of apps porting & development. However, should I produce a viable kernel ready for insertion, can I count on you to give it a shot? A very important part of the development cycle is testing & as you said earlier, corporations will not take to a new kernel so quickly. Luckily, the kernel that I'd like to modify has had tons of testing & has proven itself over the years. If that sounds fair, stay tuned, more to follow.
QuoteThat is true. The problem is that few have either the interest, or the time, to try.
I'm doing what I can to lighten the load. Hopefully, I'll be able to produce enough contributions at a fast enough pace to effectively lighten the load a bit.
QuoteThat would be great. I have done some programing, but I find that i am not able to concentrate enough to do it successfully. I spend a LOT more time reading the docs, and experimenting to get it to work, than I do actually accomplishing anything. So, I have decided to stick with REXX, and I am learning how to use DrDialog. It still takes ages to accomplish anything. I also do a lot of resting for the PMMail project (not enough to prevent users from finding problems, but I try). I also do some of the support for PMMail.
Ok, well, I'm sure that you'll come in handy as new development roll out.
QuoteGreat idea. Where do we find the guy with the music? I suppose we can get along without it though.
Someone always has music. Hopefully, we won't end up in a situation where we have to face the music on OS/2's viability. I hope to make sure that OS/2 continues to sing sweet music & not a swan song.
QuoteEars aren't very important, if you have no head to hang them on.
If all works out according to plan, we'll have new ears & a new head; both of which I consider equally important. I'm focused on the total body health of OS/2.
QuoteDon't get me wrong, I believe every word that you write, but I am also a realist, and I know that we can't do it all. At the moment, OS/2 is in heavy duty survival mode, and there are not enough people to go around. If one must cut off the ears to ensure the survival of the patient, one must do that. New ears can be added later, once the recovery is made. Of course, if you want a break from your other projects, a joystick driver might be something that somebody, somewhere, might use.
You & I are not much different in our beliefs. Our main differences stem from how we think that our general goals can be achieved. Hopefully, I can help get OS/2 off of life support & into outpatient recovery. You're absolutely correct, there isn't enough people to go around. Which means that I will have to work much harder; not only to become a more visible, contributing part of the community, but also to become a conduit to channel more resources towards OS/2. I seem to get more done when I multitask my development goals. Perhaps I will push the joystick driver into the current development queue.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
CUPS is addressing the printer problem, but is far from satisfactory, so far.
I'd like to challenge the above statement. Sure CUPS on OS/2 could use with some tools to make it easier to configure, but the bulk of the problems lie with the non-standards compliant POS postscript driver that we have, that generates bad code, and won't import many ppd files without manual intervention.
The core backend of CUPS on OS/2 is pretty solid (IMHO).
MANY people are using CUPS on OS/2 to print to printers that are not supported by native OS/2 printer drivers, and even with printers that do have native OS/2 printer drivers as CUPS produces better output.
If you have any specific problems that make it "far from satisfactory" feel free to report them via http://mantis.smedley.info or the ecups newsgroup.
QuoteIf you have any specific problems that make it "far from satisfactory" feel free to report them
To be quite honest, I have been ignoring the eCups problems, since about the middle of June, and I have been using the older OMNI driver with my Canon i960 printer. I will need to find some time to document what I am seeing, and then I will submit it to your Mantis bug tracker (probably won't be immediately).
FWIW, the problem seems to be mostly in the lack of a PPD file for the device, and I have never found any satisfactory alternate that will work, or anything that describes the contents of a PPD file so I can do some intelligent tinkering. The OMNI driver supports the printer using the Canon i850 driver, so I tried the i850 PPD file (and a few others), but it doesn't work properly.
Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.27, 22:37:34
QuoteIf you have any specific problems that make it "far from satisfactory" feel free to report them
To be quite honest, I have been ignoring the eCups problems, since about the middle of June, and I have been using the older OMNI driver with my Canon i960 printer. I will need to find some time to document what I am seeing, and then I will submit it to your Mantis bug tracker (probably won't be immediately).
FWIW, the problem seems to be mostly in the lack of a PPD file for the device, and I have never found any satisfactory alternate that will work, or anything that describes the contents of a PPD file so I can do some intelligent tinkering. The OMNI driver supports the printer using the Canon i850 driver, so I tried the i850 PPD file (and a few others), but it doesn't work properly.
So let me get this straight, your specific printer is not supported by Gutenprint (which would be the same on linux), so you tried another model (which didn't work), and that makes CUPS on OS/2 "far from satisfactory"
I
QuoteSo let me get this straight, your specific printer is not supported by Gutenprint (which would be the same on linux), so you tried another model (which didn't work), and that makes CUPS on OS/2 "far from satisfactory"
It is far from satisfactory that eCS does not have support for ALL printers. Cups is a good step forward, but that doesn't make printing support in eCS satisfactory.
I also tried Cups with my brother's printer, a Canon Pixma MP360, if I remember correctly (that was early June). It didn't work either, and there were a couple of PPD files for that one. I won't be able to try that one again, until sometime late next spring. Again, I think the problem is in the PPD file, but I don't know where to find the information about what is in those things.
Actually, in both cases "doesn't work" is probably misleading (and it is certainly an incomplete description). They will both print, but not 100% correctly. The i960 seems to have no control over where the colors are printed (yellow specifically), and the MP360 prints horizontal okay, but vertical is twice the size that it should be.
Hi Doug
Wouldn't it be wonderful if manufacturers provided drivers for their hardware for all operating systems. The fact of life is that only Windows is supported with a limited amount of *nix support sometimes. It seems like Mac bought CUPS in order to provide printing support for OS X.
I've been having a "Google" to see what linux users use to get their i960 printers working. I did find an i960.ppd file but on inspection it turns out to be a bjc_8200 ppd file http://launchpadlibrarian.net/30922153/i960.ppd
A few linux forums also suggest the BJC-8200 is the closest match so suggest you try that with eCUPS sometime.
Information about PPD files can be found by following the links starting with http://localhost:631/ and clicking the PPD API link.
Have Fun :-)
Pete
Quote from: Pete on 2010.11.28, 21:00:55
Information about PPD files can be found by following the links starting with http://localhost:631/ and clicking the PPD API link.
localhost???
Quote from: demetrioussharpe on 2010.11.28, 21:03:05
Quote from: Pete on 2010.11.28, 21:00:55
Information about PPD files can be found by following the links starting with http://localhost:631/ and clicking the PPD API link.
localhost???
Correct. That will bring you to the CUPS server running on your machine - assuming you have such running.
QuoteWouldn't it be wonderful if manufacturers provided drivers for their hardware for all operating systems.
Yes, it would...
QuoteInformation about PPD files can be found by following the links starting with http://localhost:631/ and clicking the PPD API link.
Hmmm. Having a quick look at what I have installed, I don't see anything that is useful. Perhaps there is a newer version of Cups available (as I said, I haven't paid any attention to that since sometime in June), or I need to do more reading (likely).
Hi Doug
I'm using cups1.4.5 which has a different interface look to the cups1.3.x builds and the Developer links are on the right of the page.
I do seem to recall Developer links somewhere in the cups1.3.x interface but seem to also recall the link to http://www.cups.org/ is on the main page. That url also lists Developer links; you probably want to look at the Developing Raster Printer Drivers link.
Regards
Pete
I found the link, and I found the update. Something has gone seriously wrong with what I had setup, so I will need to uninstall the whole thing, and start over. This may take a few days
Thanks...
Hi Doug
There are various pitfalls to upgrading the ecups printing system which can cause some problems. The below are based on my personal experiences.
Upgrading cups
When I upgraded(?) from cups1.3.11 to cups1.4.4 I could not print anything with the existing settings. The cups browser interface showed the job getting stuck at printing page 1, 3%. I was using lpd as the connection.
I then decided to try and find out what the socket connection was and if it would work. After a lot of faffing around trying different things it did. Here is the "faffing around" bit:
Kill the cupsd.exe
Delete these files *.ipp?, *.pwg?, ppds.dat from \cups\var\cache\cups\
Restart cupsd.exe
Use the browser interface to Modify Printer to use the socket connection; also reselect the printer driver.
My printer hangs off the print server built into my router. No idea if it will work with a printer plugged into a local LPT port but could be worth a try.
Upgrading ghostscript
I installed gs9.0, modified \cups\lib\cups\filter\pstoraster to point to gs9.0 and did a 2 page test print from OpenOffice. The 2nd page printed has lines printed in the margins, header and footer areas.
I reset pstoraster to point to gs8.71 as that works fine.
So, current recommendation is to *not* use gs9.0
Upgrading gutenprint
As gutenprint contains a lot of the PPD files used by cups installing an upgrade can be a pain: When printing the test page from the cups browser interface an error is generated and print fails due to the new gutenprint PPD file not matching the cups PPD file in use for the printer - the PPD file in use is stored in \cups\etc\cups\ppd
I resolved this by using the browser interface to Modify Printer. The only change made is to re-select the required printer driver from the dropdown list - do *not* accept the highlighted option of current printer driver. This updates the PPD file in \cups\etc\cups\ppd
Hope the above is of help to anyone trying to upgrade to the latest cups related packages.
Pete
Hi Pete.
So far, got the old CUPS cleaned out (including Gutenprint and GjostScript). Then, I installed with eCUPS003.wpi. That seems to have got me back where I was when I tried it earlier. I then tried the suggested PPD for the i960. It prints, as it did before, but the print is in the upper left quarter of the page, at 1/4 size. That was as far as I got.
I will save what you wrote, for when I find more time to play with it. Thanks...
I finally found some time to play with this.
The i960 PPD always results in only one quarter page printing - no good.
So, I select the i850 from gutenprint (I use the i850 driver from the OMNI driver, with good results). At least that prints full page. The problem is that the colors, that should be in the color wheel, are about 3 times wider than they should be.
I then updated to CUPS 1.4.4. Now, I can't do much of anything, because it wants a user ID and password. What does it want? I tried the IDs and passwords, that I use with SAMBA, but it won't accept that. I don't know of any other passwords that might be on my system.
Hi Doug, I've had the same problems as you seem to be having with CUPS 1.4.4 on three different machines, these same problems (as well as server failures, and locking up localhost) are also there using CUPS 1.4.5. However Cups 1.3.11 has been "Rock Solid" from the first day I started using it. BUT other people seem to be using these newer versions without problems!
Not much help here, but a little more info for you to digest.
klipp
Doug,
Try changing print resolution and see if it helps. I have been trying Alex T's psPrint package and have a similar issue where setting to 600x600 resolution prints 1/4 size. Only 300x300 prints proper size. It's a totally different printer (HP DeskJet 990C) though so may not apply to your situation.
Otherwise CUPs 1.4.5, Ghostscript 8.71 and Gutenprint 5.2.6 works fine here using the Socket:// backend. I found that unzipping CUPS 1.4.x over 1.3.11 causes problems. I had to delete the 1.3.11 CUPS tree, then install 1.4.5 (which means installing Gutenprint again too). Like Pete, I found GhostScript 9.00 has problems, so I stick to 8.71 for now.
The i960 ppd linked is really just a Gutenprint Canon BJC-8200 ppd. Have you tried installing the BJC-8200 directly from the CUPS web interface?
Dave McKenna
Quote from: klipp on 2010.12.04, 23:43:31
Hi Doug, I've had the same problems as you seem to be having with CUPS 1.4.4 on three different machines,
At least it confirms that it is unlikely that my setup is at fault. Thanks...
Quote from: David McKenna on 2010.12.05, 01:23:40
Try changing print resolution and see if it helps. I have been trying Alex T's psPrint package and have a similar issue where setting to 600x600 resolution prints 1/4 size. Only 300x300 prints proper size. It's a totally different printer (HP DeskJet 990C) though so may not apply to your situation.
...snip...
The i960 ppd linked is really just a Gutenprint Canon BJC-8200 ppd. Have you tried installing the BJC-8200 directly from the CUPS web interface?
If I change resolution from "Default" to anything else, it looks like it tries to print, but doesn't. The printer wakes up, does some cleaning, sits there for a couple of minutes, and turns off.
I tried the BJC-8200 options, but all I get there is a message about the PPD file not being compatible with Gutenprint.
I still need to find some time to try various things, but it isn't going to be immediately.
Thanks for the comments...