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OS/2 - Technical => Applications => Topic started by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.02, 17:45:00

Title: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.02, 17:45:00
I tried to install RPM/YUM used by some developer.

1/ Why to use install tool which has more than 50MiB and requires billable internet connection ?
  (not all PCs have internet connections - I only have one with internet and the second has none for a safe system.)
2/ This high disk space requirement is very bad on SSD MLC disk which needs lot a free space to preserve its life length (max of 10000 write per cells)
3/ After install of this tool, I never got it working ! nor Could I get program updates following all comments

Any program packaged with RPM/YUM should have a WPI corresponding build because RPM/YUM doesn't work on every system while WPI does and any update should be standalone installable.

What to do then ?
May be to stop use eCS if programs using this packaging are going to be generalized.  
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: aschn on 2011.01.02, 19:41:55
Have you read http://svn.netlabs.org/qt4/ticket/181 (http://svn.netlabs.org/qt4/ticket/181)?

Dmitry explains in the second comment why he made that step.

Andreas
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: Pete on 2011.01.02, 20:10:36
Hi

An attempt at some answers based on my limited knowledge of rpm:-

1] As a package management system it would require internet connectivity in order to check for and download any updates and dependencies for packages. Not sure if it can be pointed to a local source of updates/dependencies but, if it cannot, then maybe the code should be tweaked to have that capability.

2] I suggest you let those porting this package manager know by creating a report http://svn.netlabs.org/rpm

3] Are there any packages for this package manager to install/update yet?


I saw a post, possibly in an os2 newsgroup, that said words to the effect of: I will happily unpackage rpm installer packages and create zip files on hobbes from them.


My own view is that having a very capable package management system could be a good thing: No more starting an install only to find that other files are needed in order to get the software installed and/or working. Also this package manager should be able to check for, download and install updates to packages it has already installed.

It seems like it could be more capable package manager than Warpin currently is.

You may want to have a read through a brief discussion here http://svn.netlabs.org/qt4/ticket/181

1 of my concerns in the above discussion is that using rpm/yum may force users into having a specific (linux type) drive layout that some users may not want. I'm also not convinced by 1 of the arguments supporting the drive layout myself. Have a look at this section:

"An OS/2 user may ask: why should he install the software on the same drive where the bootable OS is? OS/2 is really small (500MB is usually enough for the OS itself), so that in case of a crash, he could quickly restore the boot drive contents from a backup ZIP file and have the software survived the crash and ready to use right away if it would reside on a different drive... The answer is that given the today's software which has a complex setup procedure (much more complex than the copy operation), reinstalling/restoring the OS will kill this setup anyway (because most bits of it go to the boot drive: look at config.sys statements, WPS objects, registry settings, system-wide text configuration files, system plugin DLLs and so on) and the software will need to be reinstalled too, despite the fact it's on the different drive -- just to refresh its integration with the newly installed OS."


The above looks very wrong to me: a good Backup should have all the settings from the boot drive that exist at the time the Backup was made and so nullifies the above argument.


My personal choice is to have a boot volume with apps and data stored on other volumes so I do not see rpm/yum as, currently, a package manager that I would want to use. That may change - if this rpm/yum port changes to allow me to install packages where *I* want.


Regards

Pete










Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: David McKenna on 2011.01.02, 21:54:31
Pete,

  The only package supposedly installable with YUM that I know about is ClamAV: http://web.os2power.com/yuri/ClamAV. I tried it but it wouldn't work :-(

  There are no 'end user' instructions on the Netlabs site yet so I guess it is not ready for general usage yet.

  My understanding is that you can install the package to any drive you want by setting the UNIXROOT=X: parameter in your CONFIG.SYS (X is the drive you want to use). Of course that means everything you install with YUM goes there...

Regards,

Dave McKenna
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.02, 22:47:39
I too tried the ClamAV thing. It appears that there are parts missing.

My personal view is that is a program, or package, needs anything more than what Warpin provides, is not properly written. Why should any program need anything more than a few lines in CONFIG.SYS (preferably none), and/or, a few entries into an INI file, plus a location to put the files (preferably controlled by the user), and a few icons?

It seems that the biggest complaint about Warpin comes from developers who don't like the restrictions that WarpIn packers put on where parts of the package are to be put (they want to put stuff wherever they think it should be put, and lots of them totally disagree with the choices of other programmers). This would seem to be a totally bogus complaint, since there are a couple of very easy ways to bypass that, if they really want to do that. It appears that RPM/YUM is going to make that situation even worse.

ClamAV was adequately packaged in Warpin, and I don't see any possible way that using RPM/YUM will improve on that. In fact, the current experience is that it doesn't work. Something very basic is missing, and there doesn't seem to be any folders, or icons, created. That, in itself, makes RPM/YUM pretty much useless, IMO. Of course, all of that may be due to inexperience in setting it up (and I don't mean on my part - I shouldn't have to even think about things like that, if it is a proper installer).

One thing that I did find interesting, was that RPM/YUM comes packaged as a WarpIn installer. That, in itself, has to tell you something.

So far, I am not impressed, but I am willing to give it a try. I will NOT, however, be using it for packaging my own stuff, in the near future.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.03, 00:12:55
Yes, I read http://svn.netlabs.org/qt4/ticket/181 but we already have a nice WARPIN installer/uninstaller.
This one doesn't need an internet link on the PC where the WPI is going to be installed (this is very nice).

Really, I prefer download all dependencies from a connected PC (which could be windows or linux) and port it to the pc where I have the WPI package to install and have a light easy tool to use.

For those having internet connextion, the speed is going faster and faster and older link are been replaced buy modern fiber link with up to 100MB band wide.      

WPI can be download from a different PC having intenet link and save the file on an USB key or CD/DVD/BD
WPI can run programs etc... And WARPIN is very nice end user oriented program, easy to use, install updates/programs or uninstall them. No special skills required

Installer must light (less space on disk), very easy to use for home user which means End user oriented (not developer oriented). So is Warpin

I could read that Qt will only be package this way ! Then, i think it will push eCS into they last living days doing the same error IBM does in the past (ignoring end user with no software skills). How many time was spent on this not wanted and unfriendly tool..... 

Never stop use WPI package. Thanks

Cheers
Remy
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: melf on 2011.01.03, 00:23:48
I don't know anything about RPM, but reacted negatively when I saw that java(?) would be packed in a new (unix-?)ported installer. I remember when Warpin was on its way to become the default os2 installer and now it is. Furthermore it is (from the end user perspective) very reliable, easy to use and understandable. I find it very odd to exchange it against non-native one. I'm no programmer but have hard to figure out what suddenly has become so complicated in new programs, so we have to "borrow" an installer from unix? Incidently I'm not very fond of the unix way to do and write things, so an installer talking unix would be bad in my opinion.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: lewhoo on 2011.01.03, 01:38:47
I'm really afraid of the RPM/YUM introduction into OS/2, as well as most of the possible OS/2 "unixings". Having to work every day on linux, I find it's directory structure very messy. RPM/YUM is convenient most of the time, when user does not want to interfere with his system, just plainly accept what he gets from automatic installers. However, not once I found out that I do not know the command I have to enter on the console to invoke the program which I just installed ;)

It starts to be painful when I have to find where the software was installed. It can be installed in several different directories, or not really replace the software it should replace, etc. For me it was many times problematic

Porting software from unix is one thing, but I'm afraid we are being pushed into "unixing" our OS/2 in other areas. In most cases I still use OS/2 (as eComStation) at home, because I don't to use anything linux-like...
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: ydario on 2011.01.03, 01:59:52
Quote from: CDRWSel on 2011.01.02, 17:45:00
1/ Why to use install tool which has more than 50MiB and requires billable internet connection ?

You can download .rpm files from http://rpm.netlabs.org and put them into a local directory, then setup a new repository on your HD adding

[bootstrap]
name = Local Bootstrap Repository
baseurl = file:///drives/f/temp/rpmbuild/RPMS
enabled=1

to /etc/yum/yum.conf.

The wiki will be updated soon.

Yuri
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.03, 02:05:18
Already tried but it does not work.
None of tried UNIX like tools didn't work under my system and this RPM/YUm doesn't work too.

Please hear us and provide WARPIN package.
Thanks
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: ydario on 2011.01.03, 02:06:45
Quote from: melf on 2011.01.03, 00:23:48
I'm no programmer but have hard to figure out what suddenly has become so complicated in new programs, so we have to "borrow" an installer from unix? Incidently I'm not very fond of the unix way to do and write things, so an installer talking unix would be bad in my opinion.

rpm/yum already talks "os2" :-) it already handles config.sys, locked files, rexx scripts and WPS interface. It lacks a GUI now, but it will get one.
It installs software to UNIXROOT drive (or boot drive) by default, but if you are an advanced user you can make use of relocatable option and install where you want.

Yuri
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.03, 02:12:17
Oh, you must now be an "advanced user" !
What a nice progress  >:(  

And as for answer: " I understand your point of view, but this will not change "

Ok you win. I stop developing ClamAVGUI
As I wrote, RPM/YUM doesn't work and from what I could see into repository directory on the web, It is going to be the end of eCS...   :'( :'(  
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/i386/i386/
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.03, 04:51:05
I think we have a major problem here. We have a more than adequate installer in WarpIn. It is small, easy to use (for both programmers, and end users), and more than adequate for whatever needs to be done (use a bit of REXX if the main program doesn't do what you want, or request that a new feature should be added). There is no reasonable excuse for using something that is overblown, and non intuitive to use. It also seems that RPM/YUM is going to force users to install software on their boot drive, unless they are "advanced users", and even then, it looks like it will need to be in some really messy UNIX type of directory structure (I already have a few of them, and I don't think any of them are good for anything). This is totally unacceptable.

QuoteYou can download .rpm files from http://rpm.netlabs.org (http://rpm.netlabs.org) and put them into a local directory,
Oh yeah, that is a great site. They can't even put a title on the page. Where do I find the package for ClamAV, and how do I extract it without using RPM/YUM? I need about 4 files, not a 30 some odd meg piece of junk software. ClamAV seems to be the only viable antivirus program left for OS/2, so it is necessary to use it.

I can see where anybody with a dialup internet connection, or pays by the byte, is going to be very unhappy.

QuoteIt is going to be the end of eCS...
Probably not, but there are going to be a LOT of ticked off users.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: abwillis on 2011.01.03, 05:11:18
I hope RPM/YUM will be more reliable on OS/2 than on Linux.  The primary thing that pushed my Linux systems to Ubuntu was that RPM/YUM would corrupt so easily. 
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.03, 05:52:53
The bootstrap doesn't update config.sys nor does it add WPS objects.

Have a look hear about all rpm prepared packages !!!
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/i386/i386/

You'll understand my comment about futur of eCS if they continue into this way...
All programs including eCS seems to be in plan to use RPM/YUM !

I had a look into clamav packages and all are going into $UNIXROOT$
I tried to find how to update an existing ClamAV installation but I didn't find every file and some of them can't be opened... Of course, no information is available about how to create a WPI from these files nor where to put files or what is the '1' and '2' referenced package etc... Realy, it is for very "Advanced user" which are familiar with UNIX / LINUX (my skills ont these 2 OSes = 0)

The simplified WARPIN installation process was a very big add-on to eCS.      

I think it is unacceptable to change installation process of a released operating system due this is a major change into product maintenance. Mays be it could be acceptable if it is going to be included into a futur eCS V3 or 2.1 in place of WARPIN (this requires eCS CD be reworked into this format) after many tests feedback and solving all bug like not working under some configuration etc...  but NEVER change existing install/uninstall tool on the fly of a released eCS version.

I realy prefer have better drives or long waited programs instead of this no requested UNIX based tool.

Cheers
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: ivan on 2011.01.03, 15:14:59
This appears to be the worst non thought out answer for developers that seem unable, or unwilling, to let other people do what they like with their own computers.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was a way provided to extract the files from the rpm package, but no, that night just give people control of the computer they use.  We have looked at using linux but gave up because of the impossibility of finding anything.

Using this 'rpm way' will be almost impossible for several of our clients - their boot disk is a 1.6 GB physical hard disk.  Everything else is placed on other HDs depending on function.  Warpin supports this structure and allows us to keep their systems up to date by simply carrying the updates on a USB thumb drive.  We can even just send them the thumb drive and know they will be able to do the update, or install, despite the fact there is no internet connection.   

All this means, if this rpm way is used, is that we will have to find a way to unpack the rpms and then repackage them as a wpi.

The argument that using rpm will sort out the dependencies problem is erroneous, warpin already does this if the packager takes care with the install script - unfortunately many do not!

Using rpm is NOT a forward step, it is going backwards and, in my opinion, the idea should be scrapped.

ivan
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: Andi on 2011.01.03, 15:28:06
I really do not understand some comments and excitements here. I read a lot of eCS related infos since years, follow newsgroups and forums. I think I'm rather well informed eCS end user. As such I do not see why some paint the picture of the end of eCS or threat  to leave eCS only cause one very dedicated developer decided to port RPM to eCS. What's wrong if someone spend time on programming/porting software to eCS? Would anyone here pitch about Paul cause he made a wealth of Linux software available for eCS? No, in fact people like Paul have extended the life of OS/2 by years and without such people, most of us would have to left eCS years ago.

Face the facts, eCS can not live without software from Linux. Like it or not. Personally I would prefer native OS/2 software but that game is over. I can not live without apache, squid, sql, svn .... anymore. And so I have to learn some basic about how the linux guys get things working. Other solution would be writing my own web server and all the other software by myself (not serious) or using Windoze and pay Microsoft for there software (no, not in any case), buy a MAC and buy Apple software (not what I would like to afford).

AFAIK Yuri does RPM cause he likes it and he hope someone else likes it too. No one convinces you to use it. If a program developer decides to use a zip archive or a wpi or a rpm package to deploy his software, it's the developers decision. If you do not like it, ask politely the developer or even better, take the application and repack it in the form you like it. Or even better, PAY the developer for his work to pack his software in the way you need it. Getting things for free and pitching around cause you dislike the way you get it is the wrong way I think.

To make things a little bit more concrete - making a wpi package for the first time may take more than a few hours. Of course depends on the complexity of the installation requirements. I f you're experienced with Warpin it may take from 1 hour to 5 or for complex setups even more hours to pack and test it. Warpin documentation is rather good. Only additional hint I may gave, stay away from the GUI tool. So take the chance and pack some software you like as .wpi and upload it to hobbes. No programming skills are necessary, everyone can do it. If you do not like to do it by yourself, in most cases it will take only less than a few hundred Euros to get it packed the way you like it. Why not ask the developer to pack it the way you like it? Why not pay for this? Oh yes, software has to be free, every OS/2 developer has to work for free, has to pack his software in 5 different ways which is sometimes more work as the initial program and a totally boring job, has to address even the most unimportant user wishes, has to develop not was he self likes but someone else wanted to have, ....
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.03, 16:07:33
Hi Andi,

Have a look on RPM/YUM plan, all eCS updates and programs from netlabs are migrating to this tool.
Tools which didn't correctly install nor it doesn't work on some systems and it uses the bad and criticized UNIX directory structures. About apache, I tried it before this tool which has it included and it never worked under my system...

I understand this tools gives the possibility to use a same development environment for developers and uses lot of disk space on end-users PC's. If I could understand, If internet isn't available on the PC, we have to download all RPM packages, put them on the disk or any supported media and change RPM/YUM manually to use this media as input etc... Where is the benefit and this makes more files to download...

This tool is used while it isn't out of bugs (install is buggy too) and nor friendly and very easy GUI to use.
This is an error and like this tool is, I think that only tester should use or try it now and not make it use for everybody.

But making current used programs package into this beta tool is not realist at this time.

If the target is to push everyone to use this tool,
An official annoncement has to be done
1/ Make it available for test only
2/ Provide both supported package (WPI and this RPM) for smooth migration (at least 1 year)
3/ Provide a migration tool from WPI to RPM/YUM  
4/ Provide possibility to install from any media instead of internet without having to add code into files
5/ Easy to use GUI had to be provided with the package

Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: melf on 2011.01.03, 17:01:16
Hi Andi,
I don't fear unix-programs either. I use quite a lot of them. What I really would dislike though is if an installer forces me to use the boot-drive for programs and forces me to talk unix-language ("unix-root", slashes instead of backslashes, put all programs in usr-folders and so on) all the time. As for now some ported unix programs urges for special tretment but most of Pauls ports for example installs where you want them and in an eCS-way (which I guess he has made them to do). Of course a developer can use whatever package he wants, but some of those packages will be steps backwards, if they are not fully "eCS-OS2-nized".
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: Blonde Guy on 2011.01.03, 17:34:21
I use and develop Suntan Special, a program that calls other software installers to install a list of applications.

I support the development of RPM/YUM, and I plan to support installation of all RPM/YUM packages in Suntan Special. I read the Netlabs Wiki comments, and I agree the WarpIN needed fixes or enhancement. I still think WarpIN should be fixed for those developers who want to use it.

Suntan Special installs apps packaged with IBM software installer, Feature Install, WarpIN, applications which are merely zipped and packages with custom installers. It does so with a GUI and with command line operation. I build machines for resale by assembling a list of applications and prerequisites and executing Suntan Special.

I greatly prefer installation packages that can run unattended.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: ivan on 2011.01.03, 17:55:15
QuoteIf the target is to push everyone to use this tool,
An official annoncement has to be done
1/ Make it available for test only
2/ Provide both supported package (WPI and this RPM) for smooth migration (at least 1 year)
3/ Provide a migration tool from WPI to RPM/YUM 
4/ Provide possibility to install from any media instead of internet without having to add code into files
5/ Easy to use GUI had to be provided with the package

I would add one more item to that list.
6/ Provide a fully working tool to unpack the RPMs.

ivan
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.03, 18:24:09
QuoteOf course, no information is available about how to create a WPI

Creating a WPI is simple, for simple programs, and not really that much more complicated for more complicated programs. It can easily be incorporated into a build system (as is done with PMMail), so the programmer doesn't need to think about it, until something needs to be changed (pretty rare, once a program has matured a bit).

QuoteTo make things a little bit more concrete - making a wpi package for the first time may take more than a few hours. Of course depends on the complexity of the installation requirements. If you're experienced with Warpin it may take from 1 hour to 5 or for complex setups even more hours to pack and test it.

I have an automatic build program (REXX), that is basically a template for building WPI files. I can configure, and build, a new (simple) WPI package in about 15 minutes. Forever after, an update build takes a few minutes, at the most. Even the GENMU package only takes a few minutes to add new devices, and most of that time is taken to update the docs. Of course, programs that require special handling may take a little longer, because you may need to develop an external REXX program to do something, but that too is a one time thing, once you get it working.

QuoteFace the facts, eCS can not live without software from Linux.

Personally, I find some of the ported programs to be useful. Most of them are crap, and they get discarded rather quickly, but that is only my own opinion. If they weren't ported at all, I would not have the opportunity to try them. I do appreciate the work done by those who port programs, but I certainly do not use what I don't like, and so far, I do NOT like RPM/YUM. It just plain doesn't install ClamAV properly (or even completely). There is something wrong with the packaging, and there is nothing that I, as a user, can do to figure it out. I did figure out how to put the usr directory onto another disk, but I do NOT want ClamAV in that directory structure. In fact I don't want that directory structure, at all, but it looks like I am forced into using it.

QuoteI support the development of RPM/YUM, and I plan to support installation of all RPM/YUM packages in Suntan Special.

To be quite frank, I don't like Suntan special either. I do have it, but I don't use it, simply because it does not work in the way that I like to work. I suppose that you will need to support it, since it has becomes one of the options for packaging software, but I am not so sure that it will be user friendly.

QuoteI greatly prefer installation packages that can run unattended.

Another great feature of WarpIn.

FWIW, I will probably put RPM/YUM onto my test machine, and use it there. Once the software is "installed", I will move it onto my "production" machines, in a more civilized manner. If there is an advantage to making WPI files, I can automate that too. We will see how it goes.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 22:33:55
I think that RPM/YUM can be a success for eCs-OS2 only if a better than WarpIn GUI is provided.

The other point where RPM is interesting is building a "Software Center" like the one that it is available on Ubuntu... following the same idea Apple announced today their own Mac App Store. (for MacOS apps)

Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: melf on 2011.01.07, 00:00:03
Quote from: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 22:33:55
I think that RPM/YUM can be a success for eCs-OS2 only if a better than WarpIn GUI is provided.
Agree completely on that
Quote
The other point where RPM is interesting is building a "Software Center" like the one that it is available on Ubuntu... following the same idea Apple announced today their own Mac App Store. (for MacOS apps)

Isn't that in fact what eCS Maintance tool is capable of?



Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.07, 00:23:30
Quote
Isn't that in fact what eCS Maintance tool is capable of?

Possible it is capable of doing that but having an App Store goes beyond the software, like having an standard for the installers (in the Linux case is RPM - AFAIK) and there had to be some infrastructure to allow developers to upload new applications and updated on the store. It is a service.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: melf on 2011.01.07, 00:57:12
I can see that,Martin, but my point was that there are capable native software, able to deal with such a thing. We do not need the unix stuff.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: diver on 2011.01.07, 12:03:04
i don't want to open a flame at all, but what is native?

and if you don't need unix stuff, what about samba server/client. all unix. Lucide uses poppler as a backend, all unix. gcc compiler all unix, just a couple of examples.
to be honest w/o all the ports we do/did we could not use ecs anymore.

and rpm/yum has it's advantages over warpin, even it still lack a gui.

ecs maintenance tool better not talking about that ;-)

regards
Silvan
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.07, 14:20:34
I think the problem is more with UNIX path structure then ported unix in respect with eCS standard.

e.g. none of GIMP, Apache or RPM/YUM doesn't work under my system despite all time spent to make them work with updated config.sys

I wrote above in whish case a tool like this one could be a progress but this one is not "official yet" and it doesn't install correctly nor work as expected for everybody (do not work for me - of course, providing it without GUI is an error). While it isn't an official tool yet and not fully tested or without bugs, products or updates have not to be package into RPM only or how are end user going to upgrade they products ? This forced me to stop my free ClamAVGUI development after new RPM ClamAV was released  :'(  :'( 

With a debugged RPM/YUM tool + RPM/YUM installer and a very nice integrating GUI into a futur eCS build, it may be a improvement despite all these UNIX paths and tool big size !
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: melf on 2011.01.07, 14:54:56
Hi Diver, just to clarify my view:

I guess that a port from another system do not become adapted to the specific OS in the same way as a program written for that system can do - this is how I look on the word "native". And I know that ports are essential to our OS, you're of course right about that. Lucide and Samba are for instance extremely valuable and other unix-ports too. I use them and couldn't make it without some. That isn't really the point.

My statement "We don't need the unix-stuff" referred, in this case, to the installer, and I wanted to point to the existence of "native" software doing a similar job. My thought was that such programs must be possible to improve, adapt or develop to suit the aim (not to say that "ecsmntool works as good as RPM/YUM"). The problem as I see it, is if such an essential program as an installer are going to affect the OS2 way to set up programs to a not OS2 way. I have never found the unix-way to do and say things easy to understand and do think we shall keep our own "language" and way of doing things.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.08, 02:05:41
QuoteUNIX path structure
..me too. My dislike with Unix software is also the path structure. I don't think that the Unix path structure is something that eCS-OS2 has to mimic.

RPM/YUM, just need a nice GUI if this project aims to replace WarpIn.  Currently you have programs inside a single .wpi file installer. If an .rpm will be as easy to install as double click on the file and follow the install wizard, that will be good to replacement for WarpIn.

If to install a .rpm you had to do:
Open the Command prompt
"man rpm "  - To remember the rpm documentation
then "rpm --help"  - to remember the commands
and later "rpm –ivh packagename" to install
or "rpm –Uvh packagename" to upgrade...

...that will be another history  ;D

From the other side WarpIn misses unattended install options using a command line, RPM/YUM will offer something better on this.

The problems is not that this is Unix software. The problem is that people are getting worried about the relevance that RPM/YUM port is gaining on this community, and when you compare the RPM/YUM port with WarpIn is not easy/simple to use. That seems to be point.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: IBManners on 2011.01.08, 11:57:10
All I wanted to do today was upgrade ClamAV, not have a program screw with my build environment after sucking more than 40M over my DSL connection, software is not ment to be this hard, and I am happy the way my directory structures are laid out for ME, and have evolved over the past 20 or more years. UNIX directory structures are also not all alike though they do often have a common base.

RPM/YUM maybe fine but I do not like being told it has to be done 'this way', or 'that way', if I did I'd install windows. I don't need all the crap it wants to install on my server.

I am also not prepared to put something like RPM/YUM on my server just to install or upgrade a program. If I am forced to do it this way then I might as well give up on OS/2 and simply stick with AIX or move to a linux distro. OS/2 makes a lean mean machine but when you start adding things like this to it, its a worry.

I'm not saying that RPM/YUM has no place on OS/2 or eComStation, I'm simply saying its not for me, at least not in its current form. I understand were I want things, and why. I do things for a reason, my paths are streamlined, and I would like to maintain my choice to do things the way I like to.

Many moons ago I used RPM and I have no problems with the RPM program itself as I could simply use unrpm to extract files when I had no need to run the entire install, and it was small and fast. RPM/YUM needs a lot more work, the bootstrap program also needs a lot more work, get rid of the bloat.

I can understand the intent behind RPM/YUM, and I can see the need for it for certain categories of users but at this point in time it has taken my choice away, and created something that is simply to hard. Is it a case of pushing it out to early ?  I don't know, only Yuri and others can answer that.

Warpin I can live with simply because its small, and on the odd occasion I've wanted to I can unwarp an install file to a directory. Or in the past I could simply install ClamAV to my local computer and xcopy the structure across the network to my server with a clamav restart and its off and running again.

Maybe its me, I've been in this industry now for 31 years so obviously I'm to hands on.

Yuri, I'm not having a go at you on a personal level, just on a software level, so please don't let any criticism stop you from taking RPM/YUM in the direction you wish to take it BUT please don't lock people into it before its ready for prime time.

Cheers
IBM
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: lewhoo on 2011.01.08, 14:02:19
It seems, that the problem with RPM/YUM comes to a general problem of... "power user". OS/2 has always served best "power users". Linux for a long time was a thing mostly for "admins", while windows mostly for "users". Now we have rpm/yum, which is mainly for "users" - invoke and do not care where the thing is installed, what it really does etc. If one wants to gain any control, he has to be an "admin" - dig deep into command line options, etc. No place for "power user" - I want to decide what and where, but I don't want to make a PhD on the command line options of the package. That's the general tendency I see among different linux distributions - either make something for a very dumb "user" or something for "admin", nothing for "power user".

I wonder if rpm/yum porters would extend the port to fulfill demands of common-to-OS/2 "power users"? Or, are they willing to?
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.08, 19:31:27
Hi!

After doing a fresh eCS install, I could give more test on this RPM/YUM tool !
(of course, I install older ClamAV (WPI and my GUI first) 

The full installed RPM/YUM package requires 66MiB on the disk !
I start then the CLAMAV install !

It didn't check I already have it installed under my prefered directory and it installed it using UNIX/LINUX rules !
Main part goes into  :\usr\...   ( I do not know where due there is no installation details with path used for each product part and I find some pats of the program using a dir name /s/p ). Some other parts goes under .\etc\ ! and I found that the signature files where placed under .\var\... path

I remember the date where eCS rules was decided about programs to be installed under PROGRAMS by default
An easy way to have all files under a same program path. Now, despite the program to install (with this tool):

What to think !
It looks to go to a full eCS redesign and supress of easy to use parts.

I tried to make my GUI work with the new ClamAV but I have to make lot of changes into the code. I wrote it to make me pleasure and to give all eCS user a friendly GUI but now, Be forced to re-write the code due to changes to always use new complicated path structure (lunix like) and use of unfriendly tool doesn't give me any pleasure and a lot of work to adapt my GUI (Do you know what ? ClamAV windows installation tools using one above build level 0.96.5 as eCS build level always uses easy self installation/update tool and you can install it where you want). For eCS, it was told that it isn't no more possible to do due ClamAV requirements !

I'll try to check if I could make a WPI using all parts of this installed build...

:'( 
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.08, 20:21:58
QuoteFrom the other side WarpIn misses unattended install options using a command line,

Well, no it doesn't. A good part of the eCS install is done, automatically, using WarpIn. The instructions are in the Programmer's guide. True, it could be easier, but it is not really all that complicated, or useful.

QuoteAll I wanted to do today was upgrade ClamAV,

That was all that I wanted to do too, when I first stumbled across RPM/YUM. Sorry, but it didn't install ClamAV, all it did was add a big mess to my disk drive (and, yes, I did figure out how to keep it off of my boot drive, fortunately). ClamAV itself did not get installed properly, and there was no indication, anywhere, that any icons were built for it. So, I am still using the older ClamAV, that took me seconds to install, using WarpIn. This is definitely not an improvement, so far, and I don't see any way to fix the problem (not that I have tried too hard).

QuoteIt seems, that the problem with RPM/YUM comes to a general problem of... "power user".

I don't agree with that statement. I have also seen that statement used in relation to WarpIn, but it isn't really true there either. WarpIn is, currently, easier to work around, because it has the tools to extract the files, if a user wishes to do it that way. The main "problem" with WarpIn, is caused by those who package the programs. In a lot of cases, the packaging forces artificial restrictions on the user (which "power users" dislike). Of course, most of the time, that is done to prevent users from screwing it up, and to make trouble shooting easier. The other big complaint is about a user already having a package installed (LIBC063 for example), but not by WarpIn, so WarpIn will complain that it is missing, and refuse to do the install. The obvious answer is to simply install the "missing" package, using WarpIn, however, there is another answer as used by the PMMail installer, to simply look to see if the file exists in the libpath, warn the user if it is missing, but still let them install the package. WarpIn has a LOT of flexibility, but the packager really does need to think about what they are doing. From what I have seen of RPM/YUM, it will be a case of "do it their way, or don't do it at all". To be fair, if they are going to track every little program that gets installed, that is the way they need to do it, short of developing a program that probably wouldn't fit on a 250 GB disk. I think the main problem with RPM/YUM, is that it is meant to macro manage the whole system. The main problem with WarpIn, is that it is meant to macro manage individual programs.  The main problem with all of them, is that "power users" like to micro manage their systems. The average OS/2 user is not a "power user" (even though some like to think they are), so they do like a little guidance, which is more than adequately done by WarpIn. On the other hand, the average OS/2 user is not a beginner, and they do have some idea about how to manage their own system. RPM/YUM seems to be geared toward doing it all, in a specific manner. It also seems to just install things that it seems to think a user needs (perhaps they do, but it should be their choice, AND, they should be told what is happening).

This is not windows, and it is not Linux. It is OS/2, and I don't see any reason to force a set of Linux rules on the user, even if they are using some Linux origin programs (most of which are "interesting", but not necessarily useful). Drivers, and basic system components, are a different story, and they really should be put into an appropriate place, but WarpIn can do that too.

As I noted earlier, I intend to install RPM/YUM on a test (perhaps virtual) machine (if the disk is big enough), and I will use that to download packages. I will then either repackage them as WarpIn archives, for distribution to my other systems, or I will simply copy the files, as appropriate. If it ever becomes apparent, that RPM/YUM really is a superior solution, I may put it onto my other systems, but, from what I have seen, so far, that will probably never happen in my lifetime.

I do find it very interesting, that RPM/YUM is being installed by WarpIn. That has to tell you something.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.08, 21:42:21
One more update to complete my previous note:

* No Clamd.exe into 0.96.4 build !
* Only clamscan usable then !
* Tried it using line command but it crashed on several kind of files like those of OpenOffice or Jar or ZIP, Jisp while some other files are correctly scanned.

I checked what could it make force to use RPM/YUM ?
After doc review nothing ! or May be if you plan use the optional JIT unit test for which
Python (version 2.5.4 or newer) is needed but this one can be installed out of ClamAV
What else ?

QuoteI do find it very interesting, that RPM/YUM is being installed by WarpIn. That has to tell you something

The warpin package doesn't install RPM/YUM, it just install needed RPM/YUM process to download and install full operational RPM/YUM. Once installed, it uses 66MiB disk space
There is no possibility to uninstall RPM/YUM with warpin oncy RPM/YUM is fully installed.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: David McKenna on 2011.01.08, 22:34:37
 One thing I found about this RPM/YUM install: it does not set any SET PYTHON statements in the CONFIG.SYS. If you delete the bootstrap files after installing YUM (as recommended), then YUM will not work from the command line. I added:

SET PYTHONHOME=C:\usr\lib\python2.6
SET PYTHONPATH=C:\usr\lib\python2.6;C:\usr\share\yum-cli;C:\usr\lib\python2.6\lib-dynload;C:\usr\lib\python2.6\site-packages

  to my CONFIG.SYS and now I can type things like YUM LIST on the command line and it actually works...


HTH

Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.08, 22:53:07
May be you'll have to manually updated python path at next release !

Note: Despite you'll have Python installed under programs during a standalone installation, RPM/YUM installs it again...   (My SDD doesn't like this tool and thanks burning "SSD" quicker as it should)

Now, a full bootable implemented EXT filesystem is missing under eCS........


Just to give you an idea !
See attached YUM LIST output
note; each issued command took a long time and use lot of CPU time before getting answer back !

All listed produts have they EXE under a same path %UNIXROOT%\usr\bin
same is true for all DLLs which are under %UNIXROOT%\usr\lib
Think having all product mixed into same directories ! (what a regression)


One of the main OS/2 advantage which was to easy move one installed application from under a path to an other path seems no more possible with the use of a single "move" selected appl folder to new destination...   :'(

I'm uninstalling it now due I have no more space on my disk and some application are now duplicated due full uncompatibility with warpin entries.
Well, to uninstall, I have to remove manually all created directories like %UNIXROOT%\usr..., %UNIXROOT%etc..., %UNIXROOT%\tmp\yumbt... (it doesn't use config.sys TMP setting!), %UNIXROOT%var\cache etc...        

Cheers  
   


Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.23, 14:54:27
Some news...

latest ported ClamAV always compiled using restricted @unixroot/ path and fully incompatible with older installation. New build could no more be installed anywhere under a private directory

I replaced all files under user clamav 0.96.2 dir using new files extracted from many rpm files. Trying to work with it, it complained not finding files under @unixroot/ path !  >:(
Don't try to find clamd.... It is into other server rpm files...    >:(

Of course, creating a WPI package out of these files for older installation compatibility has no sense due this ported build is author *blocked* to prevent any installation under a specific user directory while the previous 0.96.2 build had a unix structure like directories but all under the user installation path which do not need @unixroot ( oriented OS/2 friendly mode ).

Do you now what ? the Windows ClamAV 0.96.5 (more recent build ) has not this restriction and can be installed under any user path without use of @unixroot nor RPM !   :o
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.01.23, 15:06:59
Fresh idea: pack ClamAV GUI + ClamAV to .wpi, let's distribute it via eCo Market -- http://ecomstation.ru/ecomarket

More and more people start to use this service.

step 1: show me the icon of ClamAV
step 2: author, short description, homepage
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: IBManners on 2011.01.23, 16:20:34
I have spend the last two evening screwing around with this, and I am totally fed up with this dogs breakfast of an idea.

And I agree with CDRWSel's findings, it is pure bloatware. If this is the way forward for eComStation, I give up now.

To Netlabs, I say to you, this is the biggest disaster I have seen you people do.

I will not be stuffing around having different structures on different harddisks, with X number of scripts to redo path entrys. What are you people thinking of ?

This is way to much harder than installing ClamAV under AIX of Linux !!

Why are you making this so hard ?
Is this someones strange idea to get every one that still use's OS/2 and eCS to dump it ?
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.23, 18:09:28
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.01.23, 15:06:59
Fresh idea: pack ClamAV GUI + ClamAV to .wpi, let's distribute it via eCo Market -- http://ecomstation.ru/ecomarket

More and more people start to use this service.

step 1: show me the icon of ClamAV
step 2: author, short description, homepage

Hi Eugene,
I did the test creating a WPI (clone of 0.96.2 script) which wasn(t a problem but that the newer ported ClamAV was compiled without any respect of previous build path structure nor OS/2 rules...

The only interest to create a WPI is to make is work using same path and os/2 facilities as previous build and trying like this, the new ClamAV was build to never work...

Note: RPM/YUM and ClamAV have same porting author...
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.23, 18:20:56
It looks to me, like somebody will have to reinvent the wheel, and do it right, since it seems that Yuri isn't interested in supporting ClamAV in a proper way any more. I sure hope that other important things don't get buggered up with RPM/YUM, but it does appear that netlabs has been conned into using that mess. FWIW, I don't need an antivirus program bad enough to bother using RPM/YUM to install it, however, it is still important to have some sort of AV program, so I guess the search is on again. What else is out there, that can be made to work with eCS?
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: Paul Smedley on 2011.01.24, 04:07:57
btw look for unrpm.zip - not sure where I downloaded it from, but it can be used to extract an rpm to get the base files out - without installing rpm.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.24, 09:26:56
Hi Paul,

No problem extracting rpm files !
The ClamAV was compiled to not work using private installation path as before...   >:(

Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: IBManners on 2011.01.24, 11:28:28
unrpm'ing the files is easy, getting what you then have is not  :'(

RPM/YUM also comes with its own set of GCC runtime libs and other files, this is what has been giving me headaches as well as the strict paths compiled into this build of ClamAV.

No matter what I've done, ClamAV will NOT run unless it is in the exact environment, and directory structure as YUM has setup. No ifs, no buts.  I cannot run it on my server, and as its a server (even if it wasn't) I'm not prepared to blow it away and start from scratch the way that someone else tells me it has to be done, just to run one program.

It maybe possible to modify paths etc with a hex editor but I don't have time for anymore tinkering at present, and its also something I don't want to have to do everytime I want to upgrade a program.

Are all other RPM/YUM installs going to be like this ?

Toe the party line comrades, otherwise run a different OS  ???
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: diver on 2011.01.24, 11:33:55
for clamav it's possible to tell the clamd and fresclam where it has to look for the config files. it's a commandline switch.
and exe and dll just need to be in path.
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.24, 21:26:10
Hi !
I always use clamav with config file path....
This is how I work with it

But clamav doesn't work... 

 
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: David McKenna on 2011.01.25, 00:12:48
 FWIW there is a file at: ftp://ftp.netlabs.org/incoming/rpmdownloader.zip that is a GUI for getting RPM files from a list of repositories. I haven't figured out how to use it yet, but it looks interesting...
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: ivan on 2011.01.25, 15:00:21
QuoteI haven't figured out how to use it yet, but it looks interesting...

The big question - WHY?

Unless you are a developer there isn't much need to get RPM files on OS/2.

OS/2 is not Linux!

ivan
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: diver on 2011.01.26, 15:10:51
Quote from: CDRWSel on 2011.01.24, 21:26:10
Hi !
I always use clamav with config file path....
This is how I work with it

But clamav doesn't work... 

do you get a error message? if yes whats written?
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.26, 17:44:44
Remove your unixroot into your config.sys and enjoy...

Due it doesn't work, I deleted it and restored previous build whish works great except it is out dated yet !     
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: diver on 2011.01.26, 18:48:05
i now really did the work and unrpm all needed clamav packages. and then i moved the files where their where in older versions. and guess what it of course worked. so i don't know what you do really.

and no i did not install clamav before with rpm/yum.

regards
Silvan
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.26, 22:12:29
SYS1804: The system cannot find the file Z

Try to get clamscan version ?
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: diver on 2011.01.27, 13:25:41
seems like you miss the z.dll. this dll was installed by rpm. i guess you once installed rpm, as otherwise unrpm could not work.

i know clamav needs pthreads.dll, z.dll and mmap.dll.so either grap those rpm and unrpm them to get the dll or install rpm again. then you can move the needed dll to where you want and the /@unixroot/usr/lib can be removed from config.sys.

if you don't want to install rpm again let me know by private mail and i could zip them for you.

regerds
Silvan 
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.28, 12:16:12
Downloade extrat package and manually extracted missing dll's which aren't part of ClamAV.
I'll give it a new try adding the missing dll's under my libpath.

If it works, I'll build a warpin package for update compatibility with 0.96.2
I tell you how it works after test.   
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.28, 21:13:37
hi diver!

You probably didn't test it........ Or you may have errors

I redo full test adding missing NOT clamav dlls and here is the new error :

LibClamAV Error: cl_load(): Can't get status of /@unixroot/var/lib/clamav
ERROR: Can't get file status

----------- SCAN SUMMARY -----------
Known viruses: 0
Engine version: 0.96.4
Scanned directories: 0
Scanned files: 0
Infected files: 0
Data scanned: 0.00 MB
Data read: 0.00 MB (ratio 0.00:1)
Time: 0.027 sec (0 m 0 s)

As I wrote, it is looking into  @unixroot   >:(

End of clamav... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: abwillis on 2011.01.28, 21:40:24
Quote from: CDRWSel on 2011.01.28, 21:13:37
LibClamAV Error: cl_load(): Can't get status of /@unixroot/var/lib/clamav
ERROR: Can't get file status

As I wrote, it is looking into  @unixroot   >:(
How about wrapping the call to clamav with a script that sets the unixroot to be where you installed Clamav to,
e.g. set unixroot=x:\utils\clamav
and then creating var\lib under the clamav directory and placing the files it is looking for in there. 
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: CDRWSel on 2011.01.29, 01:45:10
Hum !

I tried it and had to do some more changes. It works now but it always will fail if the UNIXROOT is already defined for other purpose (e.g  RPM/YUM !) while for older clamav installation, it should point to the clamav installation path !

This is a restriction imposed with this clamav build on RPM/YUM rules (pure linux style)   >:(

For those not having UNIXROOT yet, like me  ;D  , I just build a WPI package for the ClamAV 0.96.4
Well do you now what ! it is outdated too...
It requires updating config.sys with a SET UNIXROOT=x:\clamav_install_path
While the RPM/YUM requires disk root e.g. X:
(this restricts use of x:\var\lib\clamav as viral database signature files) 

As I wrote, setting an UNIXROOT is now required (this is the very bad news and confirms regressing introduced by the use of RPM/YUM)          

I tried the latest I found which is experimental 0.96.4.4 but the clamav.dll provided into this package doesn't work. I did a test using the dll from november build and it works ! I did a WPI of this experimental too but including previous clamav.dll level

With these all  :-[  >:( changes, I worked on my last clamavgui updated build (which wasn't made available due to incompatibility) and added more code change to make it work with the new package WPI. I could preserve its compatibiliy with previous Clamav build level.
(of course, this clamavgui allow you to change database path and use the one under restricted path if required)

For those interested to TEST both clamav WPI and updated clamavgui, I can send them at request only (until more test have been done). Please use the link under clamavgui.

Thanks
Best regards,
Remy                  

     
Title: Re: RPM/YUM !
Post by: IBManners on 2011.01.29, 12:57:06

I would have been interested but I use ClamAV on a server and I'm not prepared to mess with it until I've settled in on the other side of Australia and have a backup server I can try it on. I don't use AV locally.

The server already has its own unixroot structure, its own versions of lib's etc that work 100%, no need for me to go screwing with what works to possibly make problems, that's what a personal OS/2, eComstation PC is for.

Cheers