Hi
Since the end of 2010 eComStation users started putting on their wishlist that the eCS GUI require more love (improvements).
At the middle of this year I started to create this petition to Mensys/Serenity System to improve the eCS GUI (My Christmas UX Wishlist). I'm to turn it public before sending it to know the community comments and if there is anything else you want to add or improve on this petition.
I had made a quick graphical comparison between Mac OS, Windows, Linux and eCS 2.1 GUI and put some recommendations to improve the eCS User Experience.
In this subject the opinions may differ from one user to other, so I don't expect that everybody share my ideas, but I will like to hear about the different options that you have in mind.
Here it is the link to the document in ODF format (6MB) (http://martin.iturbide.com/files/ECS-UX/Improving%20eCS%202.0%20UX%20-%20Request%20V0.4.odt)
Regards
It's good that your text contains many screenshots, and pics from other OSes.
yes, all this topics are actual.
Main barrier - no financial resources to complete the projects related to UI.
eCo Software made the same research and we discussed this topics too.
http://ecomstation.ru/ui
(russian texts)
* Icons - Sunny icons are ready
* Launchpad - Piano Launchpad is ready
Other projects are frozen:
* eSchemes
* Copy/Move dialog
* New Task list (eCenter)
Other:
* Boot logo - you can't change this. This code is implemented in the kernel.
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.11, 14:07:37
* Icons - Sunny icons are ready
* Launchpad - Piano Launchpad is ready
* eSchemes
* Copy/Move dialog
The problem that I see with that software is that are not open source that's why I can't endorse it. There is too many abandomware software for this platform around and creating/offering more closed source software will not be optimal for a long term solution for the platform to improve.
I can't remember,
do we have open source products developed for OS/2 only
by OS/2 engineer (developer) with a technology inside?
Hi Martin,
One thing I note in your document, you are comparing passive, can't do anything, GUIs with the active OS/2 GUI. Why would anyone in their right mind want to give that up?
Maybe it could be more eye catching for the mass market but I know a lot of people that like the standard OS/2 Warp4 look and feel when they see it on my computers.
I do agree that xworkplace should be used to extend the active functions of the desktop and I suppose a quiet boot would please some people.
As it stands I actively dislike win7 and its file manager, ditto with the linux file managers, they are so clunky - give me an updated File Freedom anyday - I say updated because it has problems with large files, file size etc.
Anyway your document should foster discussion - if it will lead to anything is a different matter.
ivan
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.11, 16:56:53
I can't remember,
do we have open source products developed for OS/2 only
by OS/2 engineer (developer) with a technology inside?
I suspect sarcasm in your question - though regardless, I don't understand the reason for the question. Martin brings up a good point. A prime example is xFile, which I have NOT been able to do without right up until eCS v2. I bought a copy (or three actually), and I seriously wish it was (a) updated, (b) open sourced so that we possibly wouldn't have had to wait for ages to see a full replacement in eCS and (c) available for purchase for some of my other older systems.
For a while now, I've been considering how we could set up a "trust company" for such commercial endeavors. As a "for instance" on my idea, "Person A" wants to write and sell software that is to be a part of the core OS/2 experience - such as the WPS enhancement stuff. A company is set up (for them and others) where a file repository is set up. Every update released requires a full copy of all code to be uploaded to that repository, where it cannot be touched or viewed by others... yet.
If a certain amount of time has been passed on a release schedule (ie: 3 or 6 months pass with no release after a promised release date) or bug fix schedule (ie: major outstanding bugs for 6 months), or the author disappears (3 months of no response to any contact attempts by the repository maintainer - or similar time with no updates to project release/enhancement timelines), then the repository maintainer open sources the code for others to work on.
Of course, such an effort would have to come with some sort of contracts from the author indicating it is their intent to abide by such, and with their pre-signed release allowing and releasing the code into the open source initiative if they default on their efforts with no reasonable communication explaining why during the set time periods.
On top of that, some sort of "hey, if I get bored of this, then in x number of months, I'll release it as open source for others to maintain and expand" would be nice.
Doing such may have prevented some of the problems the OS/2 community has already faced with software that had programming work paid for but was never finished (or finished shoddily), as well as allow for other projects to not have become missing or abandonware. As simple for instances, I still use Embellish extensively. There are people here who use dbExpert. I can't do without xFile. I'd have loved to have seen Describe ripped apart so that OpenOffice's import/export filters could be added to it, along with some GUI changes, so that we'd have it's high level of integration and OS/2 awareness combined with features only available to us in OpenOffice.
Paid software is a great incentive for getting such stuff done - it's also been very detrimental to the OS/2 community in keeping things updated and enhanced with needed or wanted features.
It seems that sometimes we forget that OS/2 was used to be developed by IBM and they dumped the platform leaving us "High and Dry".
If OS/2 will be open source we will have vendor independence. If a vendor quits on the platform, other one can legally grab the source code and continue to develop it.
Just think. If xWorkplace, WarpIn, newview would not be open source, do you think it will be included in eComStation?
That's why I think open source is the best way for a platform. A the long term it will benefit the consumer.
As a business model open source model do not mean work for free, it means stop focusing on retaining the source code and binaries and get into a service business model (installation, support, SLAs, customization).
People get scared thinking that open source means stop receiving money from licenses, but who is making money selling licenses on the OS/2-eCS Platform on this days?
Do you have more examples of open source native software in addition to
xWorkplace, WarpIn, Newview ?
I can't remember.
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.12, 18:53:26
Do you have more examples of open source native software in addition to
xWorkplace, WarpIn, Newview ?
I can't remember.
Eugene, really? Let's not play games here. It gets tiresome.
I want tell that:
1) "opensource" is a good approach, of course.
2) of course, we got thousands of open source apps and libs from linux. Because IBM & Co paid for the opensourcing. They are using the solutions for large business.
3) eComStation market is a separate village. What do you see? We don't have native open source apps, libs and technologies. Because we don't have the "God", which pays for everything. Which compensates the expenses of the developers.
Don't expect to get open source *native* apps. There is no economical reason and conditions to develop open source native apps.
Notes:
* yes, there are native open source utilities. But the developers don't opensource medium apps with a "technology" inside
* XWorkplace is native. It's opensource because Serenity/Mensys paid enough money for the development.
"God" didn't made Linux. Linux was made by a developer community, they combine their efforts to create a Unix clone. It took years and once it got recognized by the big companies it was improved. Now the source code of the big companies are also available for the small developers because of the open source license. Even if RedHat, IBM, Novell, etc quit on Linux, the source code still available at it is legal to continued the project.
Eugene. Don't expect making money selling native software either (talking in the short term future), there is no "economical reason" and "conditions" to buy software for eCS-OS2 also. We are not living on the 90's where everybody was making money selling licenses. The eComStation village is not enough for make a living selling software as a developer.
Eugene, how much of your (ecomstation.ru) software is going to turn into abandomware when the economical reassons and conditions do not allow you to maintain it? In that case will you release the source code?
I'm sorry Eugene, but we had argued about this before and never reach an understanding. You keep thinking as Open Source as give away the software for free, you don't see it as a tool to obtain collaboration and reach a common goal.
Possible if an OS/2 open source clone appears you will have more change to sell your software, but for the moment (as today) it will be better to join the efforts to create an open source OS/2 clone all together.
I like open-source approach, I like open-source programs. I agree that it may give impulse for development. I understand that opensource projects can make money on support, etc.
But I can't remember,
do we have open source products developed in OS/2 / eCS?
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.12, 22:02:03
do we have open source products developed in OS/2 / eCS?
I don't understand you. There is XWorkplace, WarpIn, Newview, AE.exe, LSwitcher, Odin, Qt4, OpenJDK, all the software listed on this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmE-UP8l9avgcENTVEhMNEZHNkQyb0FmTEVsTE1lUFE).
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.12, 19:23:56
But the developers don't opensource medium apps with a "technology" inside
What do you call medium apps?
Hi Martin,
in my opinion it was a very very good idea to collect and compare the GUI's of the different operating systems, espacially the way you did it - thank you!
With this kind of topic I would guess everyone has his own opinion, depending on his own experiences with the advantages and disadvantages of each or one of these operating systems. Even though I do work all day long with Windows 7 (and get really used to it) I could not find a way for me to use Linux (Ubuntu,Suse) or MacOS to use it, that really would have satisfied me. In Linux (for me!!) I do have to often to fall back to the commandline "bash" in case something is not working as I am expecting it to do, and simply I am not able to get used to it.
I really still do like the original Warp 4 design and how the WPS is organized, I even do still like the blue Warp 4 "OS/2 Warp" background as it just appeared once I installed it for the first time. I guess here is the reason for myself, why I still like it that much (and why I still change the eCS 2.1 GUI back to Warp 4 - ridiculous as it may seem to others or even as it is) - it was in 1996 when OS/2 Warp 4 was brand new and it was this way and look and feel it came for the first time to my mind: Gosh - I was really impressed by it! And this "feeling" remained till today.
The second "Most liked GUI" for me was the one that I first saw on MY OWN first PC - I started to work with PCs at work at the beginning of the 90's, mostly equipped with the MS DOS "GUI ;-) " or, later on, with Windows 3 - but the one I was able to afford to buy for myself - this one came on January, the 13th 1995 - with OS/2 Warp 3 (Red Spine).
And since then - I would klike to compare it with driving the first "own" car - mine was an Renault R 5 - totally rusted, the gear mechanism was a mess and could only to be used if you are trained for it ;-) - but I painted it green by mysself, installed my own carpet inside - even if any other person did laught about this picture of a car - it was MINE, the FIRST and I loved it.
And so it is for me with OS/2. It was MY FIRST Operating system, no one around me did like it (because they did not want to know something about it - there was Windows, and - for the "rich students (nerds) " around - MacOS) but I did love it - and I did know what it was able to do!
So - as a result - I still try to keep this feeling of the FIRST impression alive - using UPDCD and keeping Warp 4 as long as possible nativly installable. This would not work with the things that have been developed for eCS now, but still - ridicoulus as it may seem to you or others - I prefer Warp 4 instead of eCS. And not because eCS is "not a good product" or something like this, it does not have to do something with eCS - it is just because of Warp 4. Sometimes I even try to get Warp 3 to a same level, even using the Warp 3 based Warp Server 4 - but there are to much limitations I can not overcome.
In 2010 I was able to get Warp 4 - without Wim Brul there would have been no way for this, I can not thank him enough for this - on the X200 to run, with 3G/UMTS, with Stylus.... This year I started to try to get a tablett to run - the EEE Slate (see youtube for this if you like) - as well with the great help of Wim - but it turned out that the missing WLAN and the heat it produced because of the not working ACPI Power Management did not really make it of use. A Tablett in my opinion has to be cold, light and needs an internet connection. Something I was not able to reach with the EEE Slate. But hey - Finger and Stylus and Sound have been working - and wokring in a way I was really able to use them for practical things!! And I would have treid it even if all others would have said: "OS/2 on tabletts - are you joking?"
For 2012 I do have something new in mind - there is another Intel based Tablet on the market, much lighter and - by contrast to the EEE Slate - it comes with 3G/UMTS - something I may can use the way I use it with the X200. And in addition - I was albe to test the "new" ACPI some month ago - that seemed to work much much better than ever before - so there is a theoratical possibility to get it cold :-) And if this works - I guess it will be not allowed to use this ACPI with OS/2 instead of eCS - I will may use eCS 2.1 on it, but turning its outside back to Warp 4. But I can not afford to buy this Slate by now - as it is in my opinion really to expensive and not worth the price for now - it is the Samsung Slate 700.
Why do I write this whole story:
- I still prefer the Warp 4 GUI
- but the reason for me is due to my experience in the past
I guess:
- to attract new users I think the GUI has to be changed to get easier to use "one click is enough" - that is what I like (with the ipad 2 I have) most
But:
- I think first of all the baseline problems (ACPI, USB 3, SNAP, WLAN...) and so on have to be solved as I am still of the opinion that it does not make sense (for new users - if it is the goal to attract some) - even worse -> it is a show stopper or killer argument to say: "Yes, you can use eCS - BUT - please collect the supported hardware on your own - for WLAN and so on please take/buy some that is already some years old"
And that is NOT to blame someone or a company for not having the drivers or for that it is as it is - but it is like it is - and I am afraid these rising hardware problems can not be solved in the needed period of time, because once they may will be solved - the next problems will occur.
Fo me I am still astonished (and I am donating it) about all the things/projects Silvan Scherrer and Paul Smedley i.e. do/manage.
For Eugene I think he does not want to understand, that eCS can not be sold and advertised with methods from the nineties, I am sorry for that as he in my opinion has got a lot of good ideas but mostly destroys them with his advertisements and attacking.
I wish all of you a pleasant christmas and a happy, good new year 2012 - espacially good physical health!!
P.S: If there will be a way with the Samsung Slate 700 - I will let you know.
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.12, 19:23:56
* XWorkplace is native. It's opensource because Serenity/Mensys paid enough money for the development.
AFAIK, XWorkPlace was opensourced by Ulrich Moeller BEFORE the existence of eComStation as XFolder.
Sources of XFolder (1999/06/15) in Hobbes:
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/download/pub/os2/apps/wps/xfolder/xfld085s.zip
I look at the spreadsheet with the list of OSS software,
I see some medium *native* opensource programs: Cameraderie, Doodle screensaver.
(ex-shareware: PM123, WO!, ..)
So, there are examples of native opensource programs. It's an exclusion! :)
My main idea:
1) eCS (OS/2) is alive thanks to the developers of shareware / commercial apps.
(and alive thanks to porting of open source software).
* This developers can spend some time to free/open source apps
* The resellers can sponsor free/opensource development
2) Major part of new complex features and applications will be shareware (closed source) by default
(and free / open source if somebody pays real money to the developer).
3) Money is the fuel for developer. You can run on internal resource
during 1 or 3 monthes and create small program.
To develop medium or large program you need real fuel.
Conclusion:
No need to discriminate eCS apps with closed source.
Major part of *native* apps will be closed.
Major part of new significant changes in User interface will be closed.
Because there is no sponsor, no external sponsor. No bank which can support the developers.
Any developer which starts work on UI or other complex program,
will distribute the extension as shareware. Because the development
and debugging of native program requires hundreds of hours.
This is my opinion.
Eugene your conclusions are limited to your point of view. Your strategy will never attract new users or developers to the platform. Open Source do no mean "work for free"... YES the developer needs money, but he is not going to make money on this platform with shareware software either. Stop thinking that making a software and charging a software license for it will automatically pay the developer expenses.
ok, I get frustrated too much with Eugene since he lives in his own eCs reality distortion field. Keep your own agenda like always.
Why don't keep discussing the User Experience wishlist for eComStation. Thanks Sigurd for your comments.
Hi Martin,
once I read my lines again it seems to me that I may lost the focus on the GUI and your question a bit, sorry for this, as I wanted to express why I do still prefer a special GUI, the one of Warp 4.
But I would like to add: the time I tried to get the EEE Slate tablet to run with eCS - OS/2 I had a plan to use a different GUI with it, one that would make it easier to use it as and more look like a tablet. I already looked out and found this programm here:
http://os2.zworks.de/Hoppla/eng/index.html
that seemed to me to be worth a choice to test it as the "overlaying" OS/2 GUI for the tablet, as it allows bigger Symbols, is customizeable and so on. Unfortunately I had to give - as mentioned before - up with the EEE Slate for Driverreasons and latley 4 weeks after I bought it - to send it back and to get my money back from amazon.
But this idea is still in my mind - once I will be able to use the hardware of a tablet with OS/2 or eCS reasonable I will try to get this software to work. The Samsung Slate 700 has got the advantages that it comes (like the EEE Slate) with both: Stylus and Finger support.
Besides the other facts I do have some hope here :-)
Thanks Sigurd for your reply.
If we talk about PC computers (with mouse an keyboard), even that I like the Warp 4 GUI, I still think that "the navigator" (recommendation #3) is very useful, and it is even the standard on all other desktop OSes. We generally need to surf between folder and subfolders to get into the files and opening and closing window by window I feel it like it is not optimal.
But for tablets there is other history which I haven't think off and you bring a good topic. From what I had seen in iOS, Android, WebOS, the idea is not having a complex file ordering system like the desktop PC. (or at least hide the complexity). On a tablet it is harder (but possible) to surf around the files with the finger touch.
For tablets with OS/2 it is possible a good idea to have a mascaraed application icons on an alternative desktop application. Maybe like the Lenovo SimpleTap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khb5jPvtLgQ) (I haven't seen Win8 Metro to compare the idea). uhm... maybe combining suggestion #9 to organize the user files with a app clone like Lenovo SimpleTap we will have a nice tablet solution...possible.
Quote from: miturbide on 2011.12.12, 21:51:46
Eugene. Don't expect making money selling native software either (talking in the short term future), there is no "economical reason" and "conditions" to buy software for eCS-OS2 also. We are not living on the 90's where everybody was making money selling licenses. The eComStation village is not enough for make a living selling software as a developer.
Probably not 100% accurate, but very close. There are vertical market areas where one can make a small fortune developing for eCS/Warp. But that requires getting contacts at the right companies, lots of ground up coding, and often specialized driver coding, for the likes of various transit systems, beverage companies, etc - who still very extensively rely on OS/2 to get things done (but no longer have programming contacts to add enhancements to code or improve existing code).
Now of course, the chances of fighting one's way through to the right people is slim to none, so, it's probably a moot point.
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.13, 13:06:10
My main idea:
1) eCS (OS/2) is alive thanks to the developers of shareware / commercial apps.
(and alive thanks to porting of open source software).
* This developers can spend some time to free/open source apps
* The resellers can sponsor free/opensource development
eCS is alive HERE (where I work) because of Paul Smedley, Dink, Kyo, Peter Moylan and a few others. While I do contribute to Paul and Peter when possible, they release the stuff free.
But this brings us back to largely open source apps (and largely from Paul).
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.13, 13:06:10
2) Major part of new complex features and applications will be shareware (closed source) by default
(and free / open source if somebody pays real money to the developer).
And I am still waiting on updates to Styler/2, Pixel, xFile, Describe, LDGW and others. How much longer do you think I will be waiting for these paid/shareware apps to be updated?
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.13, 13:06:10
3) Money is the fuel for developer. You can run on internal resource
during 1 or 3 monthes and create small program.
To develop medium or large program you need real fuel.
Fortunately, I dont think that's what's driving people like Paul (I sure as heck know the pittances I send him don't amount to what his work deserves).
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.13, 13:06:10
Conclusion:
No need to discriminate eCS apps with closed source.
Major part of *native* apps will be closed.
Sadly if that's the case. That aside, exactly what
"major native apps" do you see that are being worked on (or will be worked on)? I know of none.
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.13, 13:06:10
Major part of new significant changes in User interface will be closed.
Which part is this? And since closed, and thus implying money being paid, WHY is money being wasted on UI changes? With the recent file dialog changes, the GUI is quite very functional. People bought OS/2 because "it just works". Current business customers are buying eCS because their ancient OS/2 systems "just work" - they don't give a rats ass about making the UI all pretty like Windows 7.
There isn't really a new class of customers waiting out there to buy eCS because "it looks pretty" - that's thus money that can be better spent.
The ONLY area I can see where it would be wanted
AND HELPFUL AS A SELLING POINT is in trying to regain portions of the ATM market - but even then, the stuff is largely custom app interfaces that are unrelated to the WPS.
Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.12.13, 13:06:10
Because there is no sponsor, no external sponsor. No bank which can support the developers.
Any developer which starts work on UI or other complex program,
will distribute the extension as shareware. Because the development
and debugging of native program requires hundreds of hours.
This is my opinion.
Yes, yes it is your opinion - though your priorities are a little strange.
Quote from: miturbide on 2011.12.13, 16:08:48
For tablets with OS/2 it is possible a good idea to have a mascaraed application icons on an alternative desktop application. Maybe like the Lenovo SimpleTap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khb5jPvtLgQ) (I haven't seen Win8 Metro to compare the idea). uhm... maybe combining suggestion #9 to organize the user files with a app clone like Lenovo SimpleTap we will have a nice tablet solution...possible.
I'm wondering how OS/2 fared (usability wise) on tablets back in the day... y'know, when IBM released it on tablets. Always wanted to try one for more than the ten seconds I did at a friend's house.
Quote from: miturbide on 2011.12.11, 05:42:38
Since the end of 2010 eComStation users started putting on their wishlist that the eCS GUI require more love (improvements).
Well in my case I actually returned to ECS because I got tired of all the gui changes on Linux. Gnome 2 vs gnome 3 are completely different animals, and I don't see the point - just reinventing the wheel when it wasn't broken and requiring users to work different then they are used to.
So I would be open to some small enhancements but major changes would be a turn off to me, personally.
Quote from: os2monkey on 2012.01.04, 20:49:56
Quote from: miturbide on 2011.12.11, 05:42:38
Since the end of 2010 eComStation users started putting on their wishlist that the eCS GUI require more love (improvements).
Well in my case I actually returned to ECS because I got tired of all the gui changes on Linux. Gnome 2 vs gnome 3 are completely different animals, and I don't see the point - just reinventing the wheel when it wasn't broken and requiring users to work different then they are used to.
So I would be open to some small enhancements but major changes would be a turn off to me, personally.
That has been my experience as well. I think from a major distro standpoint, Mint and Slackware were holding steady with the older GUI. Unity and Gnome 3 remind me of an Smart Phone. Everything seems to headed in that direction and I hope eCS does not follow suite.
I think my wishlist would be...
* Better / more documentation that is organized
* Accelerated drivers for newer video cards
* Flash video working seamlessly within a browser
* Current / updated Malware / rootkit (tech tools) scanner that can be used when plugging in a hard drive with a usb/sata adapter.
* Flight Simulator
* Better SMP support