Hello everyone,
for the last couple of year I'm steadily getting upset about USB devices.
It is quite usual that majority - if not all - USB MSD devices are normally readable in all the other OSes. This includes devices such as new USB thumb drives, external USB disks, Amazon Kindle etc.
It seems that eCS has still MAJOR issues with working with these devices, where 99% of these are not readily usable with the system (without any high-tech changed via LVM or DFSee), and approx 50% of these seem never to be able to work with eCS, no matter what you try. One of the main issues here seems to be extremely picky eCS disk "subsystems", which work in a way that if any non-standard setup is detected on USB device (today this covers 100% of the devices available!) the eCS just refuses to work with the device... :'(
Does anybody have similar years of painful experiences? What about the possibility of having LVM-less USB MSDs (at last)?! :'(
One of main reasons I migrate. Look at this from brighter side, noone can steal data from Your OS/2 computer on to flash stick like in movies always do, with those stupid other OSes. :D
Quote from: cyber on 2011.12.25, 01:50:06
One of main reasons I migrate. Look at this from brighter side, noone can steal data from Your OS/2 computer on to flash stick like in movies always do, with those stupid other OSes. :D
Weeeell, I have actually already migrated, just by a coincidence, the latest incarnation of Linux Mint (v12) is kind of getting "unusable" the same way the Ubuntu does :D and that slowed my migration down a bit (also when combined with not having enough time due to business trips and lots of work otherwise).
...and I was too lazy to figure out a way on how to access and migrate all the data from os2 jfs to something *tux like...
Nevertheless, I know what you are talking about, I'm already down that road too...
Still, not the answer what I hoped for :(
St.
There is solutions ! But I'm sure none You wouldn't like.
Downgrade your eCS/OS/2 to pre lvm version, like old good 4.52. Everything flash-y will work much better, (Danis drivers'N'filters 4ever!) except older sticks or devices wich use FAT16, FAT16B and such.
If You need to just pass data, burn CD/DVD, or use external HDD (they act much better, but not try with extra large ones), or resize partitions on existing drives to create FAT32 and pass data trough them.
If You need to save remains of dead system, I remember old versions of Knoppix can read hpfs. JFS in eCS version is also posible to read, but with lot of terminal typing with administrator privilegies. Wich is boring and to geek-y... O:)
Good luck and welcome to light side of the Force. ;))))
Quote from: cyber on 2011.12.25, 02:18:47
Good luck and welcome to light side of the Force. ;))))
Well, if you saw how I'm sometimes hacking eCS, that is what I call geeky..
For the various support of various filesystems, the biggest issue is with devices where you cannot do whatever you want. I.e. now I bought new Amazon Kindle 4 for my mom, but guess what, eCS is not able to read FAT32 used by the device (and believe me, it is not by the lack of me trying...).
Nevertheless, despite being quite frustrated by lack of development of basic things on eCS (for the past 10 years or so), I still love the OS and consider it being a light side of the force :D.
By migrating to *tux I would consider myself becoming a kind of "grey" version of my previous self ;)
...I guess it is not necessary to state which side of the force is the dark one (actually, it is the The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken ;)).
St.
Ah, nag nag nag and so on. This is an OS/2 - eCS forum, so you don't see the problems with Windows or OS-X. I do have both and they have their own problems. Windows most due to illegal actions on the stick, or never asked yourself what that small file has to do on your stick? Also OS-X seems not free of trouble if it comes to USB media. As far as I know Linux has also a mount and demount thingy, so what's the point to nag OS/2 for its mount and demount procedure?
Quote from: Joop on 2011.12.26, 14:27:35
Ah, nag nag nag and so on. This is an OS/2 - eCS forum, so you don't see the problems with Windows or OS-X. I do have both and they have their own problems. Windows most due to illegal actions on the stick, or never asked yourself what that small file has to do on your stick? Also OS-X seems not free of trouble if it comes to USB media. As far as I know Linux has also a mount and demount thingy, so what's the point to nag OS/2 for its mount and demount procedure?
Hello Joop,
no no, it is not just nag nag nag :D, and yes, you are correct, this is eCS forum, so my intention was to rant a little about eCS related issue.
For the USB mount stuff, unfortunately my experience (for the past 2 years) tells otherwise. In other OSes you are usually able to plug the thing into PC and in 99% it gets mounted - without crazy errors, without OS ranting about something not being possible. Does not matter if this is USB thumb drive, e-book reader or your smartphone. It just works (and yes, in Linux too). In eCS, you get
lucky if the thing works at the first try. Usually it does not and then you have to put forth a reasonable technical effort to make it work (also quite often without a certainty of success).
All of this gets specifically visible if I want i.e. my mom to use eCS. It is very hard to keep explaining why something cannot be done :(
It is - of course - not only this one thing that gets my blood pressure high for the last months. There are more, much more things that I'm getting tired about.
And I decided to rant here a bit :) because I have a feeling that maybe we, as end users, do not get enough attention for the last years from the keepers and maintainers of eCS. I'm working as project manager in a global-business corporation and of course I understand that end users might not be a priority (definitely not on a long term run) for doing big business for SSI and Mensys. Also, eCS has lots of more important things to be done and improved upon, so available resources are spent elsewhere. I understand that. But for the last months I'm feeling like I need a break from constant fixing, beta testing and waiting for new drivers, fixes, functionalities etc.
I do not mean it in a bad way, just thought that the community might get interested in discussing the thought too. ;)
St.
Quote from: StefanZ on 2011.12.25, 01:58:15
...and I was too lazy to figure out a way on how to access and migrate all the data from os2 jfs to something *tux like...
Not the answer to the specific question - but FTP is your friend. In your scenario (if I am understanding it properly) one would use Peter Moylan's FTPd on the OS/2 machine (and yes, it supports JFS files greater than 2GB) and some FTP client on the Linux (or Windows, or OSX, etc) machine. Works for me all the time.
Quote from: cyber on 2011.12.25, 02:18:47
There is solutions ! But I'm sure none You wouldn't like.
Downgrade your eCS/OS/2 to pre lvm version, like old good 4.52.
Alas, v4.5x (4.50, 4.51, 4.52, 4.52 CP2, 4.52 CP2 PF) are
ALL LVM based. As is Warp 4 with FixPacks and updates above a certain level applied. One would need Warp 4.0 or earlier, with no Fixpacks earlier than the one that installed LVM (I forget which number FP it was).
And thus, any Warp 4 system that has had MCP1 (or later) applied will also be LVM based.
Quote from: RobertM on 2011.12.29, 21:44:28
Not the answer to the specific question - but FTP is your friend. In your scenario (if I am understanding it properly) one would use Peter Moylan's FTPd on the OS/2 machine (and yes, it supports JFS files greater than 2GB) and some FTP client on the Linux (or Windows, or OSX, etc) machine. Works for me all the time.
Hello RobertM,
I have to admit, I never thought of this possibility. I was rather focused on getting access to the the local (&external, i.e. USB) hard drives and filesystems. Thanks a lot for a good pointer :)
Rather than just rant and complain about USB MSD, I'd rather discuss what it would take to fix it. I'm not a device driver programmer, but if the problem can be well defined, then it may become irresistible to someone who can fix it.
There is a lot of poor information out there.
First, if you use DFSee, you can fix a lot of these devices to work with eCS. That's not optimal, because we'd like to use foreign devices that already have data on them. But it does show that we are not that far from a solution.
I also appreciate that USB has already peaked and interacting with the cloud is the future.
What do we need?
1. Some devices are large floppies, and have no partition table. We should recognize them as partitions anyway so we can use our FAT32 IFS.
2. LVM should recognize non-LVM volumes and give them a drive letter or mount them in some way.
3. The system should be more flexible with devices with incorrect geometries. If it works OK with Windows, Linux and Mac, it should work for us, too.
Anything else?
A few comments:
Quotebut if the problem can be well defined, then it may become irresistible to someone who can fix it
So far, most problems have been fixed by those who can, when the problem becomes a personal one. If the problem isn't a problem for those who can, it won't get fixed unless somebody pays them to fix it. Even then, those who can are so busy with other things, that they don't want to take on more projects.
QuoteI also appreciate that USB has already peaked and interacting with the cloud is the future.
For many years, IBM pushed for "diskless" computers. They failed to accomplish that, simply because most people realized that storing data on somebody else's computer was a security problem, at best. The "cloud" is simply a new version of the same thing, with a few new twists. I don't see it being as useful as many seem to think it will be. One high profile security breach, and it will go away. It is only a matter of time.
USB may have a new life, now that USB 3 is here (and we desperately need a driver for that), but I expect that USB 3 will also run out of steam in a few years. It is just too slow. ESATA is the best alternative, followed by NAS storage (with at least a 1Gb/s interface). Of course, something else may come along to replace all of them, and then we will need support for that.
Quote1. Some devices are large floppies, and have no partition table. We should recognize them as partitions anyway so we can use our FAT32 IFS.
This is true, but it is just plain lazy (on the part of the manufacturers) to not have proper partitions on something larger than 2 GB (that probably won't change). It would also be better to be able to use NTFS, rather than FAT32, but nobody seems to want to improve the NTFS driver. FAT32 is also not very good, but it is the only real alternative for sharing data between OS/2 and Windows.
Quote2. LVM should recognize non-LVM volumes and give them a drive letter or mount them in some way.
One possible solution is to put a driver (filter?) between the USB driver, and the LVM stuff, that will add LVM information on the fly, when it doesn't exist. How that can be done, I leave to those who know.
In fact, LVM already does that, with small volumes. The problem lies with recognizing large volumes. When IBM did the LVM support, they made it far to ridged, and it simply doesn't allow for volumes that don't follow the "rules". Of course, nobody else thought that following the "rules" was necessary (they probably don't even know that "rules" exist), so we end up with the problems that we see today. It may be possible to patch the current software to handle the problems, but then we run into the copyright/patent problems.
Quote3. The system should be more flexible with devices with incorrect geometries. If it works OK with Windows, Linux and Mac, it should work for us, too.
This too is caused by IBM trying to stay within a ridged framework, while nobody else bothered to do that. The other cause of our problems, is that IBM didn't plan for larger media, so the drivers etc. are not capable of handling it. Since we really don't have proper access to the driver source, and we have very few people who understand such things, it is very much hit and miss to fix the problems. Hopefully, the AHCI project will fix the internal hard disk support, and the USB driver project will result in USB 3 support, but it is slow going because those who work on such things are far too busy with other things (some more important, and others not so important), plus they need to learn how to do it as they go along. Again, an additional driver (filter?) to adjust the data so that OS/2 can use it, may be the answer.
One of the most depressing parts of all of his, is that there is, at least, one guy who is probably capable of fixing such basic things, but he is off on a mission to make games work better. Personally, I don't think that games are going to be very important if the base system won't work.
Now, for
QuoteWhat do we need?
What we need, is for IBM to release the source for OS/2 (probably won't happen). Then, we need hardware manufacturers to be more open about what their devices need to make them work, so we can create new drivers (probably won't happen). Then, we need more people who are capable of programming device drivers, and other parts of the system, and some coordination to get the important parts done (probably won't happen, although it seems that Mensys is trying). We also need a few thousand competent programmers, who are willing to donate their time (probably won't happen).
One thing that can be done, is for more people to step up and help those who can do something about these problems. Much testing of new software needs to be done, and all it takes is a bit of education about how to do that, and how to make proper problem reports, and many more people can help out. Complaining in the forums is not helpful, although venting some frustration probably doesn't hurt the individual who does it.
Quote from: Blonde Guy on 2011.12.30, 17:44:04
Rather than just rant and complain about USB MSD, I'd rather discuss what it would take to fix it. I'm not a device driver programmer, but if the problem can be well defined, then it may become irresistible to someone who can fix it.
There is a lot of poor information out there.
I just got a PNY 8GB Sleek Attache USB Flash Drive that works well after a touch from Dfsee.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/PNY-8GB-Sleek-Attache-USB-Flash-Drive-Blue/17011997?findingMethod=rr
It's only about 1"x 0.5" in size and works great after Dfsee formatted with FAT32.
1) I cloned my M:(Maintenance-JFS) partition to the flash drive. It boots up fine, but switches over to the the hard-drive and continues the boot to the M: partition. So, that's only useful for situations when Air-Boot is overwritten by Grub or something of the sort and the M: drive is intact - (filter ???) as a couple people already stated.
2) I heard from a couple different sources that a non-LVM system will boot (Warp4-no fixpaks). Has anyone confirmed this, because even if it's Warp 4 it's still suitable for a emergency boot solution. For example run my Back Again/2 recovery setup or unzip an image file.
3) The current requirements are unacceptable for me now:
- Not all memory-sticks or (notebook) computers support this
- You need an OS/2 version 4.50 license (and 'OS2KRNL') to use this
- The system should NOT have a C: driveletter in use under OS/2
- Large Floppy FAT16 filesystem
By Jan van Wijk on 26-jan-2004
I'm willing to investigate the Warp 4 solution, does anyone have any suggestions ???
Greggory
QuoteI'm willing to investigate the Warp 4 solution, does anyone have any suggestions
Hehe. IMO, that is just asking for trouble...
Quote1) I cloned my M:(Maintenance-JFS) partition to the flash drive.
This might work, IF you get ALL of the references in CONFIG.SYS, and the INI files changed to match whatever the address of the flash drive is (that will change if you try it without LVM, and then it won't work, at all). You also need a BIOS that will support booting from your flash drive. My experience is that booting from flash drives is not exactly reliable. It also requires the Legacy USB support to be enabled, and that can cause other problems.
Quote2) I heard from a couple different sources that a non-LVM system will boot (Warp4-no fixpaks).
That again is just asking for trouble. Trying to mix LVM, and non LVM systems is really NOT a good idea, and you probably don't want to go completely back to non LVM operation.
My suggestion is to use bootAble to create a boot CD or maintenance partition (it might even work with a flash drive, but I haven't been able to make it work because my systems don't want to boot them - BIOS problem).
http://hrbaan.home.xs4all.nl/bootAble/ (http://hrbaan.home.xs4all.nl/bootAble/)
I suggest getting the WPI version, which includes my ConfigMaker program to help you get to a working configuration quickly. Note that Hayo Baan no longer runs OS/2 as his primary OS, but he is willing to add things, once somebody figures out the requirements. Feel free to ask me, if you need help.
Quote from: Blonde Guy on 2011.12.30, 17:44:04
2. LVM should recognize non-LVM volumes and give them a drive letter or mount them in some way.
No, security breach.
Quote from: Blonde Guy on 2011.12.30, 17:44:04
3. The system should be more flexible with devices with incorrect geometries. If it works OK with Windows, Linux and Mac, it should work for us, too.
Windows accepts everything and does go down months later and you don't know why. Linux, don't have it and it does have its own problems with filesystems. Mac, excuse me, but Mac is very picky if it isn't right, it just refuses to mount.
Regards,
Joop
Quote from: DougB on 2011.12.30, 23:02:13
QuoteI'm willing to investigate the Warp 4 solution, does anyone have any suggestions
Hehe. IMO, that is just asking for trouble...
I disagree, what's the difference between booting for old Warp 4 disk & a bootable Warp 4 thumb drive (/w updated large drive support) ???
Especially, if you don't do any file system changes with the down leveled Warp 4 setup. I only need something that boots, so I can run my recovery setup from Back Again/2000.
Quote
Quote1) I cloned my M:(Maintenance-JFS) partition to the flash drive.
This might work, IF you get ALL of the references in CONFIG.SYS, and the INI files changed to match whatever the address of the flash drive is (that will change if you try it without LVM, and then it won't work, at all). You also need a BIOS that will support booting from your flash drive. My experience is that booting from flash drives is not exactly reliable. It also requires the Legacy USB support to be enabled, and that can cause other problems.
You missed the word cloned (DFsee), it does work -- just tried my C: primary and M: logical partitions. It took me less than 10 minutes.
Right now I'm installing OpenSuse 12.1 for Grub, eCom 2.1 (C:) primary, and eCom 2.1 (M:) logical, and the rest is formatted with FAT32 !!!
1) Now I have Linux that fully supports my hardware /w boot loader.
2) C: or M: that boots if Air-Boot is loss for some reason.
3) And, a FAT32 partition for data exchange.
I'm about to install plain Warp 4 and use Bootable as you suggested, great job on the config part of Bootable DougB !
Cheers,
Greggory
Quote from: DougB on 2011.12.30, 19:24:45
USB may have a new life, now that USB 3 is here (and we desperately need a driver for that), but I expect that USB 3 will also run out of steam in a few years. It is just too slow. ESATA is the best alternative, followed by NAS storage (with at least a 1Gb/s interface). Of course, something else may come along to replace all of them, and then we will need support for that.
Too slow? For what? For what reason you need super fast media?
Quote from: DougB on 2011.12.30, 19:24:45
Quote1. Some devices are large floppies, and have no partition table. We should recognize them as partitions anyway so we can use our FAT32 IFS.
This is true, but it is just plain lazy (on the part of the manufacturers) to not have proper partitions on something larger than 2 GB (that probably won't change). It would also be better to be able to use NTFS, rather than FAT32, but nobody seems to want to improve the NTFS driver. FAT32 is also not very good, but it is the only real alternative for sharing data between OS/2 and Windows.
Large floppy has no partition table and is just accepted, LVM or not. No, it won't change, it won't go over 2Gb, that's why it is large floppy. NTFS is from Microsoft and they want big money if you want to use it as a separate driver. It's their way to put you out of business, so why not act if they don't exist? Windows is not worth the trouble, it sucks all the way. They only get it right when they abandon the glue-on system. We have JFS, much better.
QuoteSince we really don't have proper access to the driver source
As far as I know this is not true.
QuoteWhat we need, is for IBM to release the source for OS/2 (probably won't happen).
Has nothing to do with the drivers, that's software around the kernel.
QuoteThen, we need hardware manufacturers to be more open about what their devices need to make them work, so we can create new drivers (probably won't happen).
You can forget that, they just don't reply to specific questions, even if you could find out by yourself if you would buy all the models.
In USA you could raise an act as it is not free enterprise in this way. In their way they pushing Windows and in a less way Apple. Everything else is omitted. I think there are some agreements between Microsoft and other companies we are not allowed to know of.
Trouble is to proof it.
QuoteWe also need a few thousand competent programmers, who are willing to donate their time (probably won't happen).
a few thousand?, even at Microsoft's there are far less busy with a project.
QuoteMuch testing of new software needs to be done, and all it takes is a bit of education about how to do that, and how to make proper problem reports, and many more people can help out. Complaining in the forums is not helpful, although venting some frustration probably doesn't hurt the individual who does it.
The major problem is that I know very few people who can do tasks the same way time after time.
regards,
Joop
Quote from: sXwamp on 2011.12.31, 13:40:29
Especially, if you don't do any file system changes with the down leveled Warp 4 setup. I only need something that boots, so I can run my recovery setup from Back Again/2000.
Then your backup strategy is wrong. If I need a backup I'm sure my system is seriously down. So the availability of your OS might be questionable.
Regards,
Joop
Quote from: Joop on 2011.12.31, 14:01:47
Quote from: sXwamp on 2011.12.31, 13:40:29
Especially, if you don't do any file system changes with the down leveled Warp 4 setup. I only need something that boots, so I can run my recovery setup from Back Again/2000.
Then your backup strategy is wrong. If I need a backup I'm sure my system is seriously down. So the availability of your OS might be questionable.
Regards,
Joop
Well, I have bootable CDs. But this thread is on LVM-less USB MSDs and I would like to be able to use my new Flash drive (less than 1inch in size).
Not to mention everything else can be booted off a Flash drive these days, it's pretty bad that we have to use FAT16 to get a working solution !
IIRC, LVM-less external MSDs are not going to happen in this day and age. First, as I noted below, LVM has been a part of Warp since Warp *4* Fixpack #?. Secondly, along with LVM, there were other updates (part and parcel to the whole disk thingy) that work alongside it. Those updates are required for media over a certain size - for most people, that makes non-LVM setups unusable (ie: their hard disks will not work without the other updates).
A not necessarily ideal but more suitable solution would be some sort of automatic script that used the dfsee engine to LVM the media on insertion.
Quote from: RobertM on 2011.12.31, 18:34:58
LVM has been a part of Warp since Warp *4* Fixpack #?
Fixpaks 13, 14 and 15 came with LVM. The last (and best) non-LVM FP was FP 12.
Andreas
Quote from: sXwamp on 2011.12.31, 14:17:12
Well, I have bootable CDs. But this thread is on LVM-less USB MSDs and I would like to be able to use my new Flash drive (less than 1inch in size).
Not to mention everything else can be booted off a Flash drive these days, it's pretty bad that we have to use FAT16 to get a working solution !
That greatly depends on the bios on your mobo, I can't with the present hardware I use. I do backup on USB HD's with HPFS. With the bootable CD I can restore the whole thing. So what's the point? Anyway, real huge USB sticks are expensive and USB harddrives are a lot cheaper and for the same money have more storage room.
Quote from: aschn on 2011.12.31, 19:00:15
Quote from: RobertM on 2011.12.31, 18:34:58
LVM has been a part of Warp since Warp *4* Fixpack #?
Fixpaks 13, 14 and 15 came with LVM. The last (and best) non-LVM FP was FP 12.
Andreas
Much thanks. I've been trying to track down the number. I knew it was in 15, 16, 17 and 18 - and the number 13 kept popping into my head, but I couldn't remember if it was because it was "that really buggy FP" or because it included LVM (or both). I kinda am recalling it was both? Or was that 5 or 6 that was really buggy?
QuoteYou missed the word cloned (DFsee), it does work -- just tried my C: primary and M: logical partitions. It took me less than 10 minutes.
Have you tried booting it when the HDD is disconnected?
QuoteI disagree, what's the difference between booting for old Warp 4 disk & a bootable Warp 4 thumb drive (/w updated large drive support)
That might work okay, unless you need to add drive letters, or do some other LVM operation. You may also find that it can be somewhat confusing because of the potential for drive letter changes. I would suggest that you be very careful when attempting to boot Warp 4 on an LVM system.
QuoteToo slow? For what? For what reason you need super fast media?
Well, the main reason is that backup, and restore, take a LONG time when using USB 2 connected media. RSync can reduce backup time (after the first one), but it still takes a long time to do a full restore, if that ever becomes necessary. The media that I use, is a 1 TB Samsung Story Station. It works well, but it is painfully slow (the last full backup took about 20 hours). If I ever need to do a full restore, I will attempt to mount the drive so that it is connected to the motherboard, rather than through USB. I haven't tried that because opening the case will void the warranty. It is possible that there will be a geometry problem, or something like that, so I may be forced to use the USB connection anyway. My other USB disk also has an eSATA connection that runs at SATA I speeds, but it requires a shutdown to connect/disconnect it so it isn't convenient to use it that way.
QuoteA not necessarily ideal but more suitable solution would be some sort of automatic script that used the dfsee engine to LVM the media on insertion.
That is a possible solution, but it could be a dangerous solution. Some media doesn't have room for LVM data, unless it has been prepared by making a partition, using LVM. That can (and does) result in data loss if the LVM data is written over top of existing data. That happened on my old 100 meg ZIP drive, and I think it happened on a USB stick, when I tried it.
QuoteNot to mention everything else can be booted off a Flash drive these days
Well, that isn't always true. It depends on the BIOS support for booting such a drive. I have never been able to make that work on my machines. It is definitely a BIOS problem.
I would suggest trying bootAble, to build a maintenance partition on the stick. Then, the trick is to get it to boot. At least with LVM, the drive letter isn't likely to change on you. Once you get it to boot with the disk drive in place, try it with a new disk, or no disk. That can change the rules on you, especially if you don't have LVM to assign the drive letter.
Quote from: Joop on 2011.12.31, 19:10:13
So what's the point? (Of having a bootable USB stick)
1) I don't have to use Bootable to make a bootable CD or use the eCS install CD.
2) My backups only need quick boot - I use Back Again/2 (the best), a Zip image, and Rsync.
3) I didn't say anything about backing up to the an USB device, because to takes forever to complete (as DougB stated also).
4) The point for me is a quick and easy way to boot eCS, instead of having a maintenance partition - which could also be damaged.
On Christmas day I lost my boot drive, so I booted using my maintenance partition, ran the Restore for Back Again/2 and had my partition back in 36 seconds flat.
Now, if we had a bootable USB option - people wouldn't have to worry about having a maintenance partition or working with 'Bootable' (even /w DougB config, it's still a process) or trying to find the eCs install CD (which usual is missing when i need it ;)).Greggory
QuoteI use Back Again/2 (the best)
You may be surprised if you assume that BA/2K is the "best". It is so far out of date that it has some serious problems. It won't always do a restore, which is why I only use it for my boot volumes (and, I have two of those). Of course, with proper planning, it is pretty easy to simply re-install eCS, and configure it as you wish.
Backing up to a USB device is not a bad idea, if you use RSync to do it. My nightly backup (RSync) takes anywhere from 10 minutes, to two hours, depending on what changed. It would be very frustrating to have to do a complete restore, but individual files, or directories, is not too bad.
The "quick and easy way to boot eCS" is to use bootAble to create maintenance partition. When that won't work, you need a CD boot system. True, you can boot the install CD (and I would hope that you would keep that somewhere where you can find it), but bootAble makes a boot system that is customized to your system. I do keep a backup on a bootAble DVD, where I also have BA/2K installed, just in case I need it (yes, bootAble also works on DVDs).
I should take some time, and see if I can get bootAble to build a boot system on a USB stick. It should work, but previous attempts have not been successful. I am pretty sure that it won't boot because of a brain dead BIOS, but I haven't tried it on my Lenovo ThinkPad T510, which is a newer machine. In fact, I haven't tried again on my main system, since I updated the BIOS, either. More work for next year...