Poll
Question:
Free of charge eComStation Virtual Machine?
Option 1: Good Idea
votes: 10
Option 2: Bad Idea
votes: 2
Some day I was having a quick discussion with Kim about which will be a good idea to attract more users to this community.
And one of the issued discussed was the price of eComStation was a block for people that may want to try to use this OS, or ex-OS/2 users that want to give it a try to make a come back. It does not mean that eCS it is not worthy of the current price, but it is stopper for someone that want to give it try and use some software under this OS.
Even that nothing it is guarantee on this life, one of the ideas to try to attract more curious users and more developers will be to for Mensys to release a free of charge eComStation virtual machine instead of a free boot CDROM.
What features should this eCS VM should have:
- Good VM integration with host machine. Ex: Improve the VirtualBox Mouse/Shared folder drivers for eCS
- Developer tools: Possible to have a GCC ready to use environment will help getting people to develop
- OpenJDK, Qt4, Odin installed by default
- Include Open Source apps that may be interesting
- A lack of respect for the legacy: yes.. break the legacy, maybe it is time to remove things instead of keeping old stuff, no netscape, no java 1.1, no faxworks, no webexplorer, plus this will be "as is" for personal use.
But Mensys has a business selling eCS licenses, so this free of charge VM will need to have some rules or limitations:
- "As Is". Do no expect formal support or custom bugfix for this version.
- Only to run on a Virtual Machine, no real hardware allowed
- For personal use only, no corporate or business use allowed.
But don't waist resources trying to block by software this limitations, this should a user license limitation.
Like always, this is only a draft suggestion. I have no idea if Mensys is able (legally, not technically) to do this.
Any comments on the idea?
Good idea, that's not so bad, but that's not enough for me and many people who tested demo CD. In that free of charge version they can implement some freeware,shareware and free open source software of course under deal with their copyright holder. When simple user booted live cd he/she want to see - office (for that I propose shareware versions of still alive office suites, or open office but limited in options than full version) more games (OS/2 chess, it's freeware,Kolor Lines- GPLed game...),Instant messenger (SIM IM), and your proposal- virtual machine...That's enough for demo version and that would be make it so popular for simple users...
Sorry I didn't see your proposal for Java,Odin,Web explorer...and that's good proposal
Another thing is that the demo CD is an old version (1.x) which may or may not work on more modern hardware. As mentioned, it is so stripped down a new user can not even get a good feel for it. The only reason I bought it was I researched my stockpile of unused hardware (socket 775, G41, X300) and nostalgia. I emailed a former OS/2 user/friend and he downloaded it and did not share my excitement. He had to modify the start-up so it would boot on his machine. He said call him when it is ready, he was not impressed.
From a outsider view, I can tell you that 99 % of the people out there are not going to drop $149.00 and future software subscriptions when they can buy a 64bit OS for $99.00 and no additional money. I have used Linux for years and never dropped a dime on it other than donations, and it works out of the gate for the most part (major distro's) and is very stable. I
I love ECS but I am patient. I have several issues with mine but I am trying to figure them all out a little at a time. The biggest downfall in my mind is Flash. Sure there are work-a-rounds but the average person is not going to want to deal with that, especially at $149.00. I personally have no problem with the $149.00 but I have it to blow, again I am in the minority. Documentation is pretty bad as well.
Also, people with OS/2 software expect it to work because ECS website says it does. That is a lie or at least deceptive. I have found a few that flat out, lock up the system or do not run very well at all. At least with a VM, a guy can quickly figure that out. Maybe Mensys does that by design as deception seems to go back to the IBM days, almost as if it is a culture.
I know this all sounds a little harsh but it is reality.
I like to tinker, test, and tinker again. ECS is perfect for me cause I have been doing a lot of tinkering :) I also understand that I am nobody and Mensys or ECS could care less about me, a single user.
The best experience I have had with ECS is that Suntan Special by that Blonde Guy. That is impressive software and perfectly stable. I might have just chucked ECS if I did not stumble across that. eCo Market is good for ECS as well. To bad we could not get Brad Wardell back in the game but we all know that aint gonna happen.
Quote from: miturbide on 2012.01.13, 22:09:49
...
What features should this eCS VM should have:
- A lack of respect for the legacy: yes.. break the legacy, maybe it is time to remove things instead of keeping old stuff, no netscape, no java 1.1, no faxworks, no webexplorer, plus this will be "as is" for personal use.
...
Any comments on the idea?
IMO, any support required for FaxWorks should remain. Not necessarily the "Lite" version that came with Warp, but definitely the capabilities to run the full or the light version. Not that I am hinting at the "probability" that there are still a large number of dedicated fax stations out there supporting up to 64 fax lines, running on old Warp systems, using the Pro multiline version of FaxWorks... ;)
Like numerous of the voice systems still hidden in closets places, some people still enjoy that a single
486 or
Pentium I computer can handle
64 fax lines at a time...
...ah the power of a
TRUE OS/2 app.
Anyway, point is, some companies are realizing that buying new, low end hardware, to replace an ancient OS/2 box with failed hardware - then buying and installing eCS and their 10-20 year old apps can still be a lot cheaper than buying today's new solutions based on other operating systems. There have been companies looking for the demo CD just for the purpose of testing their own custom software or some other solution (like the FaxWorks one mentioned above) to make such decisions. It might not seem like a lot - and there might not be a ton of companies doing so - but even ONE company that has a large install they are trying to maintain can be a lot of licenses of eCS sold, which in turn helps further development.
Robert, didn't we have someone on here a couple of years ago asking for help with the OS/2 box they had found hidden away that ran the scheduling for a radio station. The fact that no one knew anything about it and that it had been running for several years without a reboot also shows what OS/2 can do.
ivan
Quote from: ivan on 2012.01.14, 18:39:35
Robert, didn't we have someone on here a couple of years ago asking for help with the OS/2 box they had found hidden away that ran the scheduling for a radio station. The fact that no one knew anything about it and that it had been running for several years without a reboot also shows what OS/2 can do.
ivan
There's a tire company (a massive one) trying to upgrade 3 *ANCIENT* (ie: OS/2 2.x) machines that run their distribution systems... that's beasties nearing two decades old that (combined) have less processing power than my cable box.
QuoteWhat features should this eCS VM should have:
A VM version is not a bad idea, but it is not capable of "testing" the user's hardware, to see if eCS can be installed, and will run. The old demo version needs to be updated to eCS 2.1, but it also needs some method of doing a comprehensive hardware support analysis, including read/write to the HDD. That probably means that it needs some sort of "30 day trial license".
QuoteA lack of respect for the legacy: yes.. break the legacy, maybe it is time to remove things instead of keeping old stuff, no netscape, no java 1.1, no faxworks, no webexplorer, plus this will be "as is" for personal use.
I don't see any need to exclude such things (although WebEX, and netscape, are almost totally useless now) but they certainly should not be installed by default (which they aren't).
One thing that may be good, would be to include a configured DOSBOX, to get around the problems caused by various inadequacies in the DOS support (mostly opening a window, and scrolling, problems). Some popular, free, game would likely be a good candidate.
Quote from: DougB on 2012.01.14, 19:08:45
QuoteWhat features should this eCS VM should have:
... it also needs some method of doing a comprehensive hardware support analysis...
I just downloaded (from MS), for my daughter's account, a hardware tester for W7. Very good and enlightening in fact. Something like that would be very valuable for people considering eCS. Download to your USB, run it on the computer of your choice and get an answer if the hardware is supported. Should be much easier to keep up-to-date than a complete eCS version.
Quote from: DougB on 2012.01.14, 19:08:45
...One thing that may be good, would be to include a configured DOSBOX, to get around the problems caused by various inadequacies in the DOS support (mostly opening a window, and scrolling, problems)...
Why not updated DOSBOX support as the default install option (of two that require a choice)? IE:
Please choose your DOS BOX Virtual Machine Support:
- IBM OS/2 DOS Support (based on PC DOS 5.0)
- IBM PC DOS v7.1 (I think that was the last version?)*
- Some other IBM/MS DOS compatible version
And include whatever fixes and patches may apply to each?
*
Among other things, the v7.1 release included support for xdf floppies and FAT32 support.
Quote from: jdeb on 2012.01.14, 03:15:09
From a outsider view, I can tell you that 99 % of the people out there are not going to drop $149.00 and future software subscriptions when they can buy a 64bit OS for $99.00 and no additional money. I have used Linux for years and never dropped a dime on it other than donations, and it works out of the gate for the most part (major distro's) and is very stable. I
I love ECS but I am patient. I have several issues with mine but I am trying to figure them all out a little at a time. The biggest downfall in my mind is Flash. Sure there are work-a-rounds but the average person is not going to want to deal with that, especially at $149.00. I personally have no problem with the $149.00 but I have it to blow, again I am in the minority. Documentation is pretty bad as well.
If you going to upgrade from eCS 1.2 or better its only $69, eCS 1.x its $99, Warp 4.0 $119, so this means go shopping for a second hand package and do an upgrade. The bad thing in your message is that you don't tell which 64bit OS cost $99. Second, I'm an eCS 1.2 user without subscriptions, so its up to you if you want to buy subscription or not. You can do without, remember the rule, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So if you have your eCS setup running why the need for a subscription? Next, most people forget that you don't buy 1 license but 5. Next, beyond memory and harddisk, why the need for 64bit? And do you really get true 64bit, the full package?. Programs? Its just a matter of time and eCS can do that too. That you never dropped a dime for your Linux is a shame. So your on someone else pocket spender. Software don't grow on trees, you know. Next, it didn't work that well or you don't write "most part".
Quote from: Joop on 2012.01.16, 03:34:32
Quote from: jdeb on 2012.01.14, 03:15:09
From a outsider view, I can tell you that 99 % of the people out there are not going to drop $149.00 and future software subscriptions when they can buy a 64bit OS for $99.00 and no additional money. I have used Linux for years and never dropped a dime on it other than donations, and it works out of the gate for the most part (major distro's) and is very stable. I
I love ECS but I am patient. I have several issues with mine but I am trying to figure them all out a little at a time. The biggest downfall in my mind is Flash. Sure there are work-a-rounds but the average person is not going to want to deal with that, especially at $149.00. I personally have no problem with the $149.00 but I have it to blow, again I am in the minority. Documentation is pretty bad as well.
If you going to upgrade from eCS 1.2 or better its only $69, eCS 1.x its $99, Warp 4.0 $119, so this means go shopping for a second hand package and do an upgrade. The bad thing in your message is that you don't tell which 64bit OS cost $99. Second, I'm an eCS 1.2 user without subscriptions, so its up to you if you want to buy subscription or not. You can do without, remember the rule, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So if you have your eCS setup running why the need for a subscription? Next, most people forget that you don't buy 1 license but 5. Next, beyond memory and harddisk, why the need for 64bit? And do you really get true 64bit, the full package?. Programs? Its just a matter of time and eCS can do that too. That you never dropped a dime for your Linux is a shame. So your on someone else pocket spender. Software don't grow on trees, you know. Next, it didn't work that well or you don't write "most part".
The 64Bit I was referring to is Windows 7 which most people are using these days. I was commenting on the price comment in the OP. Yes, you can put it on 5 machines but I have to get it running stable on one first.
The OP was thinking a virtual OS for a free trial instead of the demo CD. I gave my experience with the demo cd to a old avid OS/2 user / programmer, who actually got me into it back in the 90's. I wanted to share some real-life experience but people are fanatical to a point of being close-minded. I want ECS to be successful and I hope to help that in the near future. The eCS VM makes sense to me in order to attract more users and it may be more ethical for a potential new user.
I think when you can not watch video's on the web, it is broke. Other OS's are doing this. My point is that if you sell that (ecs2.1) to a potential new user after they pay for it and you tell them to download a program to download the video so you can watch it is bad business. It is deception. It also does not help potential new users who try and boot from a cd and it does not boot. That is annoying. SMP / ACPI is turned off by default, that is not impressive either.
What is wrong with wanting subscriptions? If it is fixing things that are broke, they are good. I was pointing to the fact that it is an additional cost on top of the 149.00.
I am also a generous donor to the Slackware and Mint projects for what it is worth. I tried not to blow my horn but you made me. My point is that it is open source and it has attracted avid users throughout the years for reasons you already know.
Quote from: jdeb on 2012.01.16, 06:47:38
Quote from: Joop on 2012.01.16, 03:34:32
Quote from: jdeb on 2012.01.14, 03:15:09
From a outsider view, I can tell you that 99 % of the people out there are not going to drop $149.00 and future software subscriptions when they can buy a 64bit OS for $99.00 and no additional money. I have used Linux for years and never dropped a dime on it other than donations, and it works out of the gate for the most part (major distro's) and is very stable. I
I love ECS but I am patient. I have several issues with mine but I am trying to figure them all out a little at a time. The biggest downfall in my mind is Flash. Sure there are work-a-rounds but the average person is not going to want to deal with that, especially at $149.00. I personally have no problem with the $149.00 but I have it to blow, again I am in the minority. Documentation is pretty bad as well.
If you going to upgrade from eCS 1.2 or better its only $69, eCS 1.x its $99, Warp 4.0 $119, so this means go shopping for a second hand package and do an upgrade. The bad thing in your message is that you don't tell which 64bit OS cost $99. Second, I'm an eCS 1.2 user without subscriptions, so its up to you if you want to buy subscription or not. You can do without, remember the rule, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So if you have your eCS setup running why the need for a subscription? Next, most people forget that you don't buy 1 license but 5. Next, beyond memory and harddisk, why the need for 64bit? And do you really get true 64bit, the full package?. Programs? Its just a matter of time and eCS can do that too. That you never dropped a dime for your Linux is a shame. So your on someone else pocket spender. Software don't grow on trees, you know. Next, it didn't work that well or you don't write "most part".
The 64Bit I was referring to is Windows 7 which most people are using these days. I was commenting on the price comment in the OP. Yes, you can put it on 5 machines but I have to get it running stable on one first.
I would be interested in where find Win 7 for $99. The prices I have seen is closer to $299 (I know someone who is looking for a copy to run in a virtual machine).
Also, the eCS license is not for 5 machines. This was a mis-understanding in the license that has been propogating since it was first introduced. A license is for once machine (they may still allow two - laptop and desktop just not ran concurrently - but I am not sure. The five machine limit is that you can buy five licenses at home user cost, to run over five licenses requires purchasing additional licenses the eComStation Business class licenses.
Quote from: abwillis on 2012.01.16, 07:10:55
I would be interested in where find Win 7 for $99. The prices I have seen is closer to $299 (I know someone who is looking for a copy to run in a virtual machine).
Also, the eCS license is not for 5 machines. This was a mis-understanding in the license that has been propogating since it was first introduced. A license is for once machine (they may still allow two - laptop and desktop just not ran concurrently - but I am not sure. The five machine limit is that you can buy five licenses at home user cost, to run over five licenses requires purchasing additional licenses the eComStation Business class licenses.
You can find Windows 7 Pro 64 bit for 119 Euro (estimated 150 Dollars, if you take the 99 Euro one it is about 125 Dollar) here:
http://www.amazon.de/Windows-Professional-Service-Neueste-Version/dp/B004Q6BE3Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326697126&sr=8-1
But I think it is not easy to compare eCS with other operating systems:
- Yes it is much more expensive if you see the price, but if you look at the work that has to be done by only a few people for only a few customers it seems not to be to expensive. It is like buildung a Volkswagen or a Bentley (when it comes to the market you are going to cover)
- Yes, it does have some very serious Hardware Support Problems, beyond Flash Support:
-> no WLAN Adapter supported that is manufactured since about 2007
-> no reliable ACPI support - but this is being worked on, after wasting about 7 years (2004-2010) it now seems that David is making a really good job! But therefore - no reliable Power management
-> weak support for graphic cards
-> weak USB support (but also worked on by Lars Erdmann)
-> no Bluetooth, Firewire,USB 3.0.....
-> UMTS/HSPA support really hard to get to work
=> attracting new customers is almost impossible once the Driver Problems are not solved. "New" customers I think will most likely be those, that have OS/2 running since 10 years or more and need to have new hardware now.
I just want to summarize the ideas:
In favor of a VM:
- The ability for the user to install more software. (this is the idea with a eCS VM)
- Include DOSBox on the VM.
Observations about the VM:
- It lacks (or it is limited) the functionality to test the user's real hardware working with eCS.
- It will be better to release eCS 2.x on CD with more hardware analysis tools.
- We need more drivers and improvements (WLAN, ACPI, Bluetooth, USB, Firewire, UMTS/HSPA) to get more users.
Quote from: Sigurd on 2012.01.16, 09:11:05
=> attracting new customers is almost impossible once the Driver Problems are not solved. "New" customers I think will most likely be those, that have OS/2 running since 10 years or more and need to have new hardware now.
Hi Sigurd. I share the need that we have of more drivers for the platform.
The only thing that I want to correct, is that the goal of this hypothetical idea is not to attract new "customers". Since I'm more community oriented I want to attract more "users/developers" to the community. It is possible that as a consequence of releasing a free of charge VM it may get more customers.
I think that providing a free of charge eCS VM with preinstalled user and development tools will help to get more "community members" on board of this platform.
Hi jdeb
I seem to recall that the Purchase of eCS includes a period of Software Subscription - either 6 months or 1 year - so is not an extra cost on top of the OS purchase initially.
However, looking at the Mensys site I do not see that information displayed so maybe that has changed...
Maybe someone else can clarify this - or you could email mensys and ask if the purchase price includes Software Subscription.
As regards watching video online I suspect you are talking about Flash support. I do not have Flash installed myself so if I really want to watch a particular Flash video I download it and use a current media player - vlc or smplayer(mplayer) to playback the video.
As I understand it Flash support is currently being worked on and, I'm told, is improving. Maybe there will be a Flash10/11 GA sometime soon.
However, some websites are catching up with the times and offer video via HTML5 which works fine - unless the video is h264 encoded which Mozilla products do not and will not support. In which case it is back to downloading a copy of the video - but this is a Mozilla browser problem rather than OS.
ACPI support: Seems to be finally moving forward now that a new developer has taken over. Hopefully there will be a GA of this software soon.
Regards
Pete
Quote from: miturbide on 2012.01.16, 16:32:58
Quote from: Sigurd on 2012.01.16, 09:11:05
=> attracting new customers is almost impossible once the Driver Problems are not solved. "New" customers I think will most likely be those, that have OS/2 running since 10 years or more and need to have new hardware now.
Hi Sigurd. I share the need that we have of more drivers for the platform.
The only thing that I want to correct, is that the goal of this hypothetical idea is not to attract new "customers". Since I'm more community oriented I want to attract more "users/developers" to the community. It is possible that as a consequence of releasing a free of charge VM it may get more customers.
I think that providing a free of charge eCS VM with preinstalled user and development tools will help to get more "community members" on board of this platform.
Hi Martin,
sorry for leaving the focus ( Hm - this seems to happen quite often with me...) - and I forgott to mention - I think it is really a good idea to present a "free of charge VM" ! It may let more people realize that there is still something like eCS - OS/2 around and one is at least able to play with it a bit. I think this might be very interesting for all those, who already left this road of OS/2 some years ago.
Keep on going with your good ideas!!
Sigurd
P.S.: To overcome the driver problem, the beginning last year I tried to get an OS/2 Warp 4 VM in Virtualbox to run. My approach was to start a basis Linux system that first served all the Hardware (LAN, WLAN, USB ...) and second automatically starts Virtualbox with the OS/2 Warp 4 inside. I finished the VM of Warp 4 and installed it in Ubuntu Linux on a USB Stick. It was really astonishing for me to boot the Linux Stick on 4 different PCs, one a notebook, and inside the VM I was able to use the usually by OS/2 unsupported WLAN Hardware etc with OS/2 Warp 4 (the same with Sound as the VM used Soundblaster 16, regardless what real Soundharware was presented)! But I did not manage to get it to run in the way, that the VM started automatically. I found a place in the net where this procedure was decribed, but because of the lack of "No programming skills" I did not get it to work.
I wrote a lot here (sorry, please use onlinetranslator as it is in German) http://www.commtalk.org/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showthreaded.pl?Cat=1,3,16&Board=os2softprojects&Number=78639&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5
And it looked like this: http://www.commtalk.org/FileRepository/ForumAttachments/99-78779-Warp218.png
Quote from: Pete on 2012.01.16, 16:38:41
Hi jdeb
I seem to recall that the Purchase of eCS includes a period of Software Subscription - either 6 months or 1 year - so is not an extra cost on top of the OS purchase initially.
However, looking at the Mensys site I do not see that information displayed so maybe that has changed...
Maybe someone else can clarify this - or you could email mensys and ask if the purchase price includes Software Subscription.
As regards watching video online I suspect you are talking about Flash support. I do not have Flash installed myself so if I really want to watch a particular Flash video I download it and use a current media player - vlc or smplayer(mplayer) to playback the video.
As I understand it Flash support is currently being worked on and, I'm told, is improving. Maybe there will be a Flash10/11 GA sometime soon.
However, some websites are catching up with the times and offer video via HTML5 which works fine - unless the video is h264 encoded which Mozilla products do not and will not support. In which case it is back to downloading a copy of the video - but this is a Mozilla browser problem rather than OS.
ACPI support: Seems to be finally moving forward now that a new developer has taken over. Hopefully there will be a GA of this software soon.
Regards
Pete
Yes when I purchased it came with a 6 month software subscription which is nice. I really have no problem with the flash video issue but I can see potential new users having one.
Good to know about the ACPI support. I can get it to work but it is not stable. I think it may be a BIOS setting but I have not really dived into it. The "BIOS tips" text file off are a start but have not got around to it.
I may have sounded a little harsh but I think honesty is the best policy. With that being said, I love eCS and I can not believe how much I missed it, especially the templates. I love open office and Scribus. Even running at single core, 2gb of RAM it is blazing fast.
Quote
I would be interested in where find Win 7 for $99
In the US, Newegg has the builders license (OEM) for $99.00 every day. The only difference from the retail is that it does not have support.
Well hopefully i'm this discussion is not considered too old to reopen but I just noticed it.
Regarding:
Quote from: miturbide on 2012.01.13, 22:09:49
But Mensys has a business selling eCS licenses, so this free of charge VM will need to have some rules or limitations:
- "As Is". Do no expect formal support or custom bugfix for this version.
- Only to run on a Virtual Machine, no real hardware allowed
- For personal use only, no corporate or business use allowed.
But don't waist resources trying to block by software this limitations, this should a user license limitation.
Well I think we would get many more hobbyists involved with the OS for sure.. but maybe it would be like giving away the farm to do so, if provided 100% free..
I would think many people would opt to not buy commercial licenses when they can get away with using a free resource, so it would cause mensys & serenity to lose business.
Personally I would think it would be better to offer a low cost virtual machine license (maybe it could actually be delivered as a virtualbox image so you could not easily install it on native hardware), something like $25-35 maybe, and maybe a discount on the full license if they decide later to upgrade to running a full license on native hardware.
People also feel more committed to a product when they have to pay something to get it, while still giving a lower cost of entry for people who are not yet 100% sure or just exploring.
My 2 cents anyway :).
Quote from: jdeb on 2012.01.16, 18:01:06
In the US, Newegg has the builders license (OEM) for $99.00 every day. The only difference from the retail is that it does not have support.
That's a crippled version of Windows, not the full pack. The full pack for Windows 7 is here $362. Next, I don't like to upgrade about every week because they fixed again something. Windows 7 is not an OS but more a virus. An OS serves what the client want's, Windows 7 want's that the client serves. Its a small tweak.
Joop
Quote from: Joop on 2012.02.26, 13:25:06
Quote from: jdeb on 2012.01.16, 18:01:06
In the US, Newegg has the builders license (OEM) for $99.00 every day. The only difference from the retail is that it does not have support.
That's a crippled version of Windows, not the full pack. The full pack for Windows 7 is here $362. Next, I don't like to upgrade about every week because they fixed again something. Windows 7 is not an OS but more a virus. An OS serves what the client want's, Windows 7 want's that the client serves. Its a small tweak.
Joop
There is no difference from a technical standpoint. The only difference is the retail editions provide Microsoft technical support by phone, and are able to be moved to a different machine, and they come in the pretty packaging.