...especially in the very own words of an insider:
"...Plus, you ['...entitled, spoiled whiners'] don't see me getting in your business every time some Microsoft program crashes on me, do you?"
http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2005/061305buzz.html?page=1 (http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2005/061305buzz.html?page=1)
"every time" ??? It sounds like a chronic illness.
Way to exploit context.
If you want to talk chronic illness, talk WPS hangs due to the SIQ issue that has not been addressed since the creation of the operating system (referring to my beloved OS/2 of course).
If I had a dollar for "every time" the WPS hung due to some stupid sound issue, or the IFE/firefox issue, or just for no god-damned reason, I'd be rich enough to be on my way to my c2de build.
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.01.12, 03:49:09
Way to exploit context.
I beg your pardon ??? I believe that words like, "
some Microsoft program crashes on me..." might rather imply an endemic disease...
Hmmm. I dont know, I've had IBM programs crash in OS/2 before. Just because it was written by the people who supplied the OS does not mean it will be free from worry. As for the author of the article, the only micrsoft supplied application that has given me issue so far has been WMP11, and that was before I fixed an error due to an improper install of a HD decoder filter.
As for my "way to exploit context" comment, I was pissy because I just woke up and I was focusing on the impression I gathered that you were implying that since someone who worked for MS said that apps crash for her that there was a big problem behind all of it.
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.01.12, 07:47:51
Hmmm. I dont know, I've had IBM programs crash in OS/2 before. Just because it was written by the people who supplied the OS does not mean it will be free from worry. As for the author of the article, the only micrsoft supplied application that has given me issue so far has been WMP11, and that was before I fixed an error due to an improper install of a HD decoder filter.
Have you ever written a document with Word that consisted of more than 40-50 pages? That's when the problems usually start. And at over 70-80 pages things get ugly. All that assumed that you use style sheets in the proper way instead of formatting headlines and the like seperately. Otherwise the pain starts earlier.
Inter-program communication between Word and Access is another candidate. Mail merge tends to "forget" which queries to use.
^ Nope, thankfully :P My thesis work is not until next year, right now, I have only just crossed the 20pg mark a few times, but this was with heavy use of Tables and Figures and other rich-content.
What are these "problems"?
Also, dont use Access, no need for database work (yet) .
Quote from: chennecke on 2008.01.13, 22:53:26
Have you ever written a document with Word that consisted of more than 40-50 pages? That's when the problems usually start. And at over 70-80 pages things get ugly. All that assumed that you use style sheets in the proper way instead of formatting headlines and the like seperately. Otherwise the pain starts earlier.
I don't open that size of document very often, but it has been several years since I've had Word or any Office app outright crash on me. At least in your example it's a big Word document. I can usually hang the WPS in OS/2 4.52 simply by playing a couple of rounds of the Klondike Solitaire app that it comes with.
Any OS/2 user who says the SIQ problem doesn't exist or "they never saw it" is lying. It's the Achilles' Heel of an otherwise fairly solid OS.
Quote from: S.SubZero on 2008.01.14, 23:00:02
Quote from: chennecke on 2008.01.13, 22:53:26
Have you ever written a document with Word that consisted of more than 40-50 pages? That's when the problems usually start. And at over 70-80 pages things get ugly. All that assumed that you use style sheets in the proper way instead of formatting headlines and the like seperately. Otherwise the pain starts earlier.
I don't open that size of document very often, but it has been several years since I've had Word or any Office app outright crash on me. At least in your example it's a big Word document. I can usually hang the WPS in OS/2 4.52 simply by playing a couple of rounds of the Klondike Solitaire app that it comes with.
I'd say that is indicative of a different issue - I used to use that app as one of the apps to show off OS/2's multitasking... I'd run multiple copies at the same time in autoplay mode along with Chess in Computer vs Computer mode and never experience a WPS hang.
Quote from: S.SubZero on 2008.01.14, 23:00:02
Any OS/2 user who says the SIQ problem doesn't exist or "they never saw it" is lying. It's the Achilles' Heel of an otherwise fairly solid OS.
Yeah, the SIQ issue is an issue... and I doubt anyone would say they haven't seen it... Firefox spawns it - though switching to something else (to force OS/2 to take focus away from Firefox) resolves the issue in a few seconds (3-30 depending on how you have the "Focus Change Sensitivity" setting set on the "System" dialog box on the "User Interface" tab.
Of course, there aren't tons of open ports (none actually)... which to me is a better tradeoff for an occassional annoyance. An annoyance much akin to not being able to use or close a window on Windows when you have a file copy running... ;)
O_o Rly? I dont have this issue in WinXP.
I have the focus change sensitivity set to 5ms, how long does that translate into "real time" so I know whether or not to give OS/2 a chance to do it before I bust out CAD-H?
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.01.15, 00:51:40
O_o Rly? I dont have this issue in WinXP.
Really? Try copying a lot of files from one folder to another using drag and drop (not by using right click, "copy", "paste") and tell me that the copy box does not become modal for either the folder you are copying from or to (meaning it forces itself above it, and you cannot move the copy box below the folder).
It would be really nice if some unknown service pack fixed it - so if you dont see those results, I'd REALLY like to know so we can figure out how to fix our XP machine here... I thought the machine was fully updated - but if you are getting different results, maybe it isnt.
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.01.15, 00:51:40
I have the focus change sensitivity set to 5ms, how long does that translate into "real time" so I know whether or not to give OS/2 a chance to do it before I bust out CAD-H?
5= 5/10 second (1/2 second)... give it about 3-5 seconds... (it takes longer than the time you enter to complete - but starts the action in that 1/2 second).
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you properly, but I just transferred 883 mp3s with a combined file size of 4.84GB from a DVD to my C drive via dnd and I was able to close the window that I was copying to and from, and move the copy box around just fine, and even take focus from it so I could do other things. Windows update should let you know what updates you need.
Edit: Read up on Modal and Transient Windows on Wiki, and I am not sure what it the copy dialog was, but it did not block me from workflow like Wiki states modal windows do. Like I said, I was able to close the DVD window, close the C:\Music window, and continue typing this post without it hindering me in any way.
Edit Edit: I am running Windows XP Sp2 Professional (x86) Build 2600 HAL: 5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)
Final Edit: Yeap, close the window that spawned the Copy dialog and they will become their own dealie, "transient", with an entry on the start bar and everything. However, keep the parent window open, and they will remain "modal".
Or you can just take focus away from the parent window and continue working normally and leave it wherever it is out of the way.
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.01.12, 03:49:09
If you want to talk chronic illness, talk WPS hangs due to the SIQ issue that has not been addressed since the creation of the operating system (referring to my beloved OS/2 of course).
IBM addressed the SIQ issue with a timer in Warp 4 (or was it a Warp 3 FP?).
As someone who moves alot of files around for work I'd have to say it has about a 50% possibility of freezing your whole system if you do it via DND in XP or Vista. Sometimes it works fine.. other times.. the machine is damn near useless during the move.
However this is all pretty stupid discussion.
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.01.15, 04:03:23
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you properly, but I just transferred 883 mp3s with a combined file size of 4.84GB from a DVD to my C drive via dnd and I was able to close the window that I was copying to and from, and move the copy box around just fine, and even take focus from it so I could do other things. Windows update should let you know what updates you need.
Edit: Read up on Modal and Transient Windows on Wiki, and I am not sure what it the copy dialog was, but it did not block me from workflow like Wiki states modal windows do. Like I said, I was able to close the DVD window, close the C:\Music window, and continue typing this post without it hindering me in any way.
Edit Edit: I am running Windows XP Sp2 Professional (x86) Build 2600 HAL: 5.1.2600.2180 (xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158)
Final Edit: Yeap, close the window that spawned the Copy dialog and they will become their own dealie, "transient", with an entry on the start bar and everything. However, keep the parent window open, and they will remain "modal".
Or you can just take focus away from the parent window and continue working normally and leave it wherever it is out of the way.
Id say there is someting wrong with your hardware or software if it freezes during file transfer. windows isnt THAT shitty. As for the SIQ issue being fixed, LOL. Sure, if you call the timer a "fix" when the WPS still hangs and needs hard resets.
Saijin,
given the problems that you have with eComStation, I could say the same thing: OS/2 isn't that shitty, it's a problem either in your HW or in the way you do things. BTW, you already admitted you use to break things and don't know how to get out of the problems you generate.
I already told you, and I'll told you once again: if your REALLY want to do something with OS/2 (rather than whining about the fact that OS/2 is different from Windows) then please TRY to understand OS/2. That's true for every other operating system: if you don't want to learn, than just stay with what you have.
I have to say that your (apparent) habit of saying bold things, and then - when questioned about them - say "I just thought it was so, maybe I'm wrong" is quite irritating to me. Please stay with what facts you have been able to collect in your experience.
As for the SIQ fix, saying that it is just a "timer" is really an understatement. You are just quoting what lwriemen said. The SIQ is not really affecting anyone since it was fixed years ago. That's not to say that we're not experiencing it anymore sometimes, but it is just a momentarily annoyance of a few seconds, of a type (i.e. the GUI not responding) that you can easily experience (for other reasons) in a lot of other operating systems, including Windows.
If you're having WPS hangs that need a reset, you're experiencing something else that I cannot recognize, because I don't have it. PLEASE look for further information, understand the software you're installing (maybe WPS extenders conflicting?), try to learn how to do maintenance of the INIs, etc. Every OS needs maintenance, and Windows is NOT an exception (quite the contrary).
...and I have to agree with Robert that this discussion is quite stupid and idle, and I'm sorry I haven't been able to stop myself from replying.
Bye
Fine, I am at fault here. I apolgize and aqcuiese. In any case, will setting the timer to a value like 1ms give make it react any faster to program hangs? If 5ms will net 5-10s wait in real life, I assume that 1ms will net 1-5s wait in real life?
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As to trying to understand, I am trying. You can see that I am sure. I have a different way of learning than you, and a different way of expressing things. I dont really feel its fair to be criticized based upon how I learn and interact. I would hope that you can see that I do try to learn things, and that I do care for this OS and want it to succeed. I thought that was clear, but maybe it is not so. Im not here to malign this OS and hate on it for no reason, but Im also not going to sit here and say its perfect because simply, its not.
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As for no OS being maintenance free, you are right. I never said Windows was, in fact, the reason why its so trouble free for me is because I have a maintenance schedule/routine that I have worked out that appears to be the right thing. Its a combination of regular defrags, error checks, spyware scans, use of Registry Cleaner (much like checkini I suppose) [Eusing Free Registry Cleaner reccomended, has given me 0 issues thus far and is quite thorough], and careful selection of software to install on my computer.
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NOW, on to my issues regarding OS/2. You are right, I DONT know enough about it. I dont get how classes work, I dont get why INIs get corrupted and stuffed with bad entries, and I dont get what software is okay to use with other software. I have only been using OS/2 for about a year now, on and off. It hasnt been my life like it has for most other people here, so you are correct, I know precious little. That being said, getting comments like "M$ windoze is teh suck at EVERYTHING, OS/2 for the win" or being told that I basically dont belong here is not constructive or friendly. Yeah, I get it, you dont like me. Thats fine, we can still co-exist and share information and other thoughts however.
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Finally, your contention that this discussion is idle and pointless is well taken, and I will hold my tounge in all further discussions because clearly, I am not very welcome here and the patience is worn thin regarding me.
Maybe it's the wrong thread, but as the SIQ is disscussed here, maybe someone can shed some light on this for me -
I worked for years with OS/2 and get WPS hangs very rare. But when, then after <CTRL> <ESC>, <ALT> <ESC> the window with '...application does not respond - Ignore, End Application' (or similare) pops up and after 'End..' the WPS restarts and all is fine again.
But, I think there are apps/extensions that avoid this 'self restarting'. LarsenCommander, WPS-Wizard, XWorkplace, eStyler, VPC .... or a combination of this? I don't know. Sometimes it helps to kill pmshell.exe with C-A-D commander or watchcat, but not every time.
I can see inresponsive WPS behaviour often when working with network shares or ftp-drives mounted via netdrive, or when accessing CD-ROMs.
So for a normal OS/2-eComStation user, and I count me in this group, it seems that the WPS hangs (probably the correct word would be wait instead of hang) a way too often for sometimes not so clear reasons. It doesn't matter that I can see similar behaviour with Windoze from time to time.
Unfotunatly I see this 'hangs' again with a relative fresh eCS2.0rc3 install (with LarsenCommander, WPS-Wizard, XWorkplace, eStyler, VPC ....). I care about my inis and clean them regulary.
This is no OS/2 bashing in any case. I love it and never want to run my private pcs with another os. I have to use other os'es in my day time job and I know, I don't want them at home. Only thing I want to know is, how can I avoid this 'hangs'. Which apps or combinations cause this behaviour? What settings for async focus change, netbios retries-timeouts .... are best? What apps/extensions should I avoid?
I got the feeling that some of us know how to use their system without this WPS 'hangs'. But others, including me, do not. So please share your experience here.
Saijin,
best thing for the "timer" is to try out values and see if it works for you. Be careful BTW because it times how long the input queue has been unresponsive, so if you set it too low you may be triggering the switch when it is not necessary. That said, I never tried to set it very low because I have very rare problems with the SIQ.
As for the rest of your post... saying I don't like you is not fair, it would be better to say that I don't like the way you express things (sometimes). In fact I am quite happy that you're here, and even a little surprised that a guy like you, evidently fond of the MS world, wants to explore the OS/2 world and don't get (too) discouraged by OS/2's peculiarities.
You surely won't find me saying "M$ windoze is teh suck at EVERYTHING, OS/2 for the win", you can bet it. I don't like Windows, and I know it well because I am forced to use Windows at work, and I work in a big IT department where I have been a programmer, a system admin, and now a DB admin. But I usually know if and when to recommend a user to switch to another OS or to stay with MS, when I know his computing habits. I am not one of those "evangelizing". I enjoy using OS/2 at home. I recognize OS/2's strengths ans weaknesses with respect to modern OSes. And I am not that old that I am not comfortable working with Windows.
Finally, regarding INI corruption, classes, software compatibility and other technicalities I will be more than willing to share what I know if asked politely, though I have not a lot of free time on my hands. If you have some kind of IM account (jabber, ICQ, MSN...) we can even share some info in real time :)
Hope I have set things straight with respect to my attitude towards you.
Bye
Cris
UPDATE: I got your MSN contact and added you to my contacts.
Cristiano, thanks for the clarifications with everything. I apologize if I come off a bit strong, but I have been not so well received by some members of the community, and I can see why they would rightly not particularly care for me. As for my interest in OS/2, like I said elsewhere, it was my first GUI computer, and where I first began to learn about computing. I loved my Aptiva, though at that time I did not understand why it looked different and things worked different than my friends computers. I like the Microsoft world because its what I used since the demise of the Aptiva till now, and I have grown to be quite proficient and knowledgeable about the many quirks and issues with Windows, to a point where I am really not surpised by anthing. Also, as stated in the OpenGl thread I started here, I am a gamer, and I dont like consoles, so Windows is the only way to go really. Gaming is what started forcing me to learn about computers because I needed to understand things and hardware and how to use the game consoles and etc. Thanks for adding me, I rarely use MSN, but I go on from time to time. I will see if I cant get the dMSN working here. I also wont take up your time outside of the boards because I know that you have real work to do. I've got time because I'm still a student and I can slack a bit more :P
I have to agree with Cristiano. You bring a different perspective to this forum and I am glad you are here.
I don't care for Windows myself even though I have to use it. I do admit that XP is the most stable of Window's versions even though I have seen it crash many times on my machine and others. Yes, I can make eCS crash, but I do a lot of beta testing of software on my machine. You want a stable machine on both platforms. Use your core programs and nothing else. But if you do that, then where is excitement of trying something new and different. Vista sucks in my opinion. Having had to buy a laptop with Vista installed for my daughter for college, neither her or I care for it too much although it does look pretty.
One thing I have definitely found to be true (of ANY operating system) is that certain (many?) aspects of stability are definitely related to the hardware it runs on. An Aptiva is a good example... most Aptiva's were pretty decent pieces of hardware. Most IBM hardware is. Even when IBM subcontracts stuff like memory to outside suppliers, the quality of the memory is always better than what one could get off the store shelves for the same memory brand. A combination of many similar factors can make an OS (or piece of hardware) seem much more stable. My HP workstation crashes all the time... my IBM servers never ever ever have. My Thinkpad 600 (going on 12 or more years old) rarely ever crashes (3 times I can remember).
Sometimes, the capabilities of the machine (and the ability of the OS to use those capabilities) also make a difference... for instance the memory (and controllers) in a Netfinity server which can mask off bad memory areas and keep the machine running, and do ECC and other things transparently to the OS, increases reliability...
Regardless, each OS has it's deficiencies... and I hope I've never sounded like I was belittling anyone's opinion on which deficiencies are worse... the fact is (end-user) usage type is the only thing that can determine that. For one person, the SIQ issue may be worse than the threading limitations or security issues of XP... such is the exact reason why many FOSS Operating Systems are tailoring various releases to that specific opinion based market of OS users by taking certain features (and thus also certain deficiencies) to create a package tailored to a certain groups' desires and needs...
I thus hope that everyone continues to post their experiences and likes and dislikes of each - because it is from them that eCS (as well as other OS's) can grow into something that addresses the desires of more users...