http://www.os2world.com/content/view/17344/2/ (http://www.os2world.com/content/view/17344/2/)
QuotePosted by Martin Iturbide - Wednesday, 05 March 2008
Guys..... .. .
It was finally time that this get documented on the press.
We all know that this was happening.
But what is interesting also is how the author get flamed for writting this article. "Written by an anti-Windows journalist" said someone.
We all predicted that with an Windows ATM network the costs of maintaining it will raise, antivirus has to be bought, patches need to be applied, etc. And now this author gets a source that says that there is more downtime on Windows ATMs.
I think that this was easily predictible.
This article should remind one about one of the Ian Flemming movies starred by the famous actor - James Bond (007) The name of the movie - "Never Say Never". From all appearances the legendary OS/2 Operating System could very well sooner rather than later get the long overdue attention it deserves from OEMs in particular. The rest could be history for OS/2 programmers who have been languishing over the more recent years.!!!
Oh, come on folks!
Although I like to see our predictions proved... no bank will ever re-install OS/2 on their ATMs, not even speaking of eComStation. And here's why:
Imagine that you would be the IT guy of a bank in charge of your (let's say) 250 ATMs... which is ridiculous little BTW... how would you get a support contract from IBM if you plan to install OS/2? How would you get the contract if it was eComStation? Choose between Serenity Systems (sigh) and Mensys (cough)... wake up:
What it needs is people with toolboxes driving around in cars wearing "eComStation support" on their blue collars. Where is the company that can guarantee such people to be available anywhere in a town/country within 24 hrs? If I was the guy in the bank IT dept., I would choose whatever company and OS that grants me a 24hr service and immediate troubleshooting for my ATMs.
It is the service provider and the service level and the cost that is taken into consideration for a bank - not the OS, they give shit on that. To become a service provider for a bank you need to have a critical mass of people that can deliver... and there's myriads of folks that "do windows", some "do linux" and very few die-hard zealots that "do eCS/OS2"... if you were a service provider company - what OS would you chose in order to get enough cheap people that are somehow reliable to actually provide a service and comply with SLAs?
Okay, never say never: Perhaps someone will open a company specialized on ATM and services that focuses on OS/2 or eCS. Then the only thing it takes is to get 1 or 2 companies and you're in the game... of course, yeah - that might work. But let's face facts: There would rather be such company that uses a Linux flavour instead... simply for the license cost for the OS at least.
Regards,
Thomas
The people with the 'eComStation Support' shirts will be like the Maytag man (in the commercials) where they would not have much to do since eCS works so well. ;D 8)
Isn't one of the reasons IBM won't open source OS/2 because there are ATM's that use it? ???
Well, here are some few nice photos of various Windows system that crashed..
A few more...
yet some more....
And while on to it.... a few more...
Well, going back on track again; yes, it's true that ATM can be hacked and as noticed in the various above pictures; some of them crashes. But, beliving that this would be the opportunity for any kind of OS2 package is to have false hopes. As already said, there is no organisation that can support for example eCS and even if ATM quite often uses standard PC's or PC-components the issue with hardware issues would still be a factor and it won't be better when quite a few of them are using more mini & pico boards to minimize the size of the units and minimize the components involved.
About vulnerabilities that makes Windows based ATM hackable or vulnerable - take the same specification used on the Windows ATM and apply that on an another OS and you'll find similar or other vulnerabilities that can be used to take the system. Of course, the system has to be hardened and configured according to protect the customers. Reading that quite a few of the ATM are sending the customer info un-encrypted and it's only the PIN-code that's encrypted. Well, then it would be safer to find weak protected ATMs and analyse traffic from them instead of installing skimming equipment.
Recently there has been some interesting stories (http://kim.haverblad.net/2008/01/30/remote-bank-fraud-against-swedish-swedebank/) here in Sweden regarding break in to bank offices to install equipment to wire tap local system and perform money transactions with the data collected. An IKEA department store last week had to go public and warn customers that they've located false card readers that had been manipulated to skim cards. So the weakness of system can be found everywhere and for banks it often just a matter of risk calculation on how much money the should spend to prevent the risk. Problem is that if the security gets in the way of the customers, the banks would rather go for a lower level of security than risking losing customers.
The Beginning of Understanding:
Hi "Warpcafe"! With regards to the statement you have made above in which you stated among other things; "Imagine that you would be the IT guy of a bank in charge of your (let's say) 250 ATMs... which is ridiculous little BTW... how would you get a support contract from IBM if you plan to install OS/2? How would you get the contract if it was eComStation? Choose between Serenity Systems (sigh) and Mensys (cough)... wake up:
What it needs is people with toolboxes driving around in cars wearing "eComStation support" on their blue collars. Where is the company that can guarantee such people to be available anywhere in a town/country within 24 hrs? If I was the guy in the bank IT dept., I would choose whatever company and OS that grants me a 24hr service and immediate troubleshooting for my ATMs.
It is the service provider and the service level and the cost that is taken into consideration for a bank - not the OS, they give shit on that. To become a service provider for a bank you need to have a critical mass of people that can deliver... and there's myriads of folks that "do windows", some "do linux" and very few die-hard zealots that "do eCS/OS2"... if you were a service provider company - what OS would you chose in order to get enough cheap people that are somehow reliable to actually provide a service and comply with SLAs?
Okay, never say never: Perhaps someone will open a company specialized on ATM and services that focuses on OS/2 or eCS. Then the only thing it takes is to get 1 or 2 companies and you're in the game... of course, yeah - that might work..." Read again what was stated in the top line of this comment; and, here it is again - "The Beginning of Understanding" (yours) and this was appropriately written because of your "Then the only thing it takes is to get 1 or 2 companies and you're in the game" (this reminds of a Biblical verse which goes something like this; "Where two and three are gathered in my name there I am also..." which brings me back to the recent New York Giant's Championship win; besides, as far as those "big" lottery games around the world goes - they say that "you have to be in it win it". So, here is the question for you: Lets suppose your target market size is not "250 ATMs..." but millions of folks caught up in the U.S. Sub-Prime fiasco along with millions of small and medium businesses around the world needing a reliable Operating System like that of OS/2 without the overheads attached to "Windows" and "Linux". Do you see the "big" (TCO) picture about choosing OS/2 over "Windows" and "Linux". ;) !
TRAPS and SIQ issues, high licensing costs, and no real support from anyone. Fail. I am sorry.
"TRAPS and SIQ issues, high licensing costs, and no real support from anyone. Fail. I am sorry". "Saijin_Naib", Can you please elaborate.
Thanks.
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.05, 19:45:36
TRAPS and SIQ issues, high licensing costs, and no real support from anyone. Fail. I am sorry.
TRAPS:OS/2 doesn't trap as much as Windows bluescreens in such setups (ATMs - or the old bank workstations running Warp 3 or 4 on IBM PCs). The ATM manufacturers worked with IBM to choose the best hardware for their machines and OS/2. As a for instance, my 8 year old Netfinity has
never ever ever ever trapped (or crashed) - ever.
SIQ Issues:SIQ Issues are programming issues. It's not so much that the GUI doesn't respond (which it doesnt - but that's not the REAL issue), but more accurately that, even though it is spelled out multiple times in multiple places in the IBM Docs, programmers don't follow IBM's programming rules - if they did, a program would have a separate thread monitoring it's queue messages ensuring there was never a queue deadlock.
Thus, the SIQ "fix" later added to Warp is actually a "Well, we wrote this to deal with programs that were not written properly because the programmers did not follow the instructions" routine.
HIGH LICENSING COST:Windows, in such an environment, is just as if not MORE expensive in terms of licensing. As a matter of fact, technical merits aside (at the time I chose OS/2 for my servers, over a decade ago), one big consideration was in order to have the ability to have more than a few clients connected at a time, I had to pay MS out the ____ to enable that functionality - not so with OS/2 - no artificial user limits are imposed.
You also are not taking into account the plethora of updates, anti-virus software, anti-spyware software, real firewall software, external firewall, a FAR larger support team* (and on and on) that a Windows box needs - which drives up that cost even more. In the end, a Windows based solution is FAR more expensive.
* As for the "a far larger support team" comment, almost 10 years ago, IBM was bidding against... IBM... (no joke - two different divisions) for a support contract for Bank of America for ALL their OS/2 boxes (workstations AND ATMs). The division of IBM that was going to sub-contract some of the work out to me lost (sadly) - but basically, I (and 1 other person who worked with me) would have been responsible for the entire Eastern Seaboard of the United States. If these were Windows setups, you'd be looking at a support team in the dozens or hundreds. Add up that cost difference.Real Support:Just like they do with MS, the ATM vendors have support contracts with IBM. Even today, many of them do, simply because there are still many ATMs that use OS/2. So, needless to say, both (a) the ATM manufacturers have their own dedicated Warp/ATM support team, as well as (b) reps within IBM to provide that team with additional support if the need arises.
Hope that answers your questions and concerns on those issues.
-Robert
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.05, 17:57:05
The Beginning of Understanding:
Hi "Warpcafe"! With regards to the statement you have made above in which you stated among other things; "Imagine that you would be the IT guy of a bank in charge of your (let's say) 250 ATMs... which is ridiculous little BTW... how would you get a support contract from IBM if you plan to install OS/2? How would you get the contract if it was eComStation? Choose between Serenity Systems (sigh) and Mensys (cough)... wake up:
IBM, to this day, is still willing to support OS/2 in such setups - for a fee (there is even a number to call on their website, where they will happily set you up a support contract). The ATM manufacturers, to this day, still have an OS/2 support team dedicated to OS/2 based ATM support. The ATM manufacturers, to this day, still need to maintain support contracts with IBM for additional support above and beyond what their own inside techs can resolve.
Keep in mind, when the ATM manufacturers started migrating from OS/2 to Windows, it's not like their entire OS/2 support team just up and died. And with a 60% or so migration rate, it's also not like they dissappeared, since there are still tons of machines out there.
The true issue with switching (or not switching) to Windows was the lack of certain multimedia capabilities in a method that cheap developers knew how to access. Virtually every bank saw the "value" in advertising to their customers/ATM users on the ATM itself - and even though there were methods out there to do so on OS/2, they didnt know how to do so cheaply (or at all). If you read some of the initial statements from ATM manufacturers, you will see that:
(1) they claim ad based ATMs are a necessity of the times in order to recoup the cost of doing business (for the bank) and was a requested feature of the banks (which they probably noticed on earlier POS systems... which brings up a funny counterpoint to #2... Giant (Mid-East Seaboard, US, big grocery chain) switched to OS/2 Warp 4 for their POS systems in 2000 or 2002... and guess what? They are serving multimedia ads on their POS systems - and running 2 monitors - and when you watch them turn on an aisle once it's been totally off, you see the neat littke "OS/2 Warp" Bootlogo form v4 - dunno if they are still using it - but they were as of 2005)
(2) the ATM manufacturers claimed one of the key reasons they switched was because they couldn't do it on OS/2 (which was only true in the sense of the older ATMs running a v1.x version of OS/2),
(3) they
thought it would be easier to manage and support (MS promised them it would be) - and are finding instead that segments of the ATM install base that took 1 or 2 techs to support are now taking hundreds to support (which makes the needs for #1 even bigger).
-Rob
Hi,
I thought everything that could be said about the topic was already said, but... okay.
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.05, 17:57:05
The Beginning of Understanding:
(...)
Read again what was stated in the top line of this comment; and, here it is again - "The Beginning of Understanding" (yours) and this was appropriately written because of (snip)
Okay, and here's for the beginning of understanding (yours, not mine this time): ;-)
That "All it takes is 1 or 2 companies" should have had an explicit <ironic> tag with it I guess... any idea on the probability of getting only 1 company to replace their ATM software by a not-supported-any-longer OS/2 or a no-support-at-all eCS? :-)
To make it clear:
I would be the first to pop the corks for eCS if I'll see it running an ATM - but let's face facts:
Some ATMs are just used to dispense cash. Ok. But looking around here in Germany, these machines get more sophisticated and are targeting to replace humans... meaning, everything that can be done at a counter will soon be done on an ATM - or to call it that way "a multipurpose bank terminal". This means that banks also want to run their web-based applications and their multimedia adverstising on them. Get the picture? I am talking about you looking at an OS/2 or eCS ATM screen and all you'll see is a large empty frame with a jigsaw "(puzzle") piece and a link that says "CLICK HERE TO INSTALL PLUGIN"... :-)
Okay, come up now and tell me that this is nonsense... I know that it only depends on the efforts to get that things running on ANY platform. Yeah, but why should someone waste time and money to overcome such obstacles if he simply can avoid to mess around with them by selecting another platform, for heaven's sake?
If you were in charge of it and the CIO, CEO and CFO are asking you "what are the possible solutions"... then I guess you know what the decision will be if you tell "we can take OS/2 or eCS, do some proprietary additional hacks for about 1.2 million US$ that will take several months with no support at all - or call either Wincor-Nixdorf or Diebold and they'll give us ready-to-run Windows systems next week with 24-hr support"...
Regards
Thomas
"To make it clear:
I would be the first to pop the corks for eCS if I'll see it running an ATM - but let's face facts:
Some ATMs are just used to dispense cash. Ok. But looking around here in Germany, these machines get more sophisticated and are targeting to replace humans... meaning, everything that can be done at a counter will soon be done on an ATM - or to call it that way "a multipurpose bank terminal". This means that banks also want to run their web-based applications and their multimedia adverstising on them. Get the picture? I am talking about you looking at an OS/2 or eCS ATM screen and all you'll see is a large empty frame with a jigsaw "(puzzle") piece and a link that says "CLICK HERE TO INSTALL PLUGIN"... :-)"
Okay, come up now and tell me that this is nonsense... I know that it only depends on the efforts to get that things running on ANY platform. Yeah, but why should someone waste time and money to overcome such obstacles if he simply can avoid to mess around with them by selecting another platform, for heaven's sake?
If you were in charge of it and the CIO, CEO and CFO are asking you "what are the possible solutions"... then I guess you know what the decision will be if you tell "we can take OS/2 or eCS, do some proprietary additional hacks for about 1.2 million US$ that will take several months with no support at all - or call either Wincor-Nixdorf or Diebold and they'll give us ready-to-run Windows systems next week with 24-hr support"...
Now as to "Okay, and here's for the beginning of understanding (yours, not mine this time): ;-)" So, "how about hitting the ball back in your court" ;) ; and, here are alternative scenarios (ones leaving out the "if" as in the case of "If you were in charge of it and the CIO, CEO and CFO are asking you "what are the possible solutions"). Against this background I recall reading where reference was made to the fact of just what an "o-a-s-i-s" this OS/2 Discussion Forum was and here is why:
"Bosai eyes US$1B refinery, smelter once US$46M bauxite shares deal approved"
"By Nicosia Smith"
"Sunday, January 28th 2007"
http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56512772
"RUSAL to mull hydropower
-refinery, smelter studies also on the cards"
"By Nicosia Smith"
"Thursday, February 8th 2007"
http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56513627
"A feasibility study for hydropower should not take so long, can't previous ones be re-evaluated?"
"Saturday, February 10th 2007"
http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56513805
It is very much the understanding that that when it comes to Russia (from an historical and technological perspective)
"Usage of eComStation and OS/2 Warp operating systems"
http://en.ecomstation.ru/solutions/?action=solutions
the assumptions are that there is going to be "OS/2 or eComStation" somewhere in the line up if the the above mentioned projects are to be brought (should there be an "if" here ;) ) to fruition.
Surely; from the foregoing, it must appear then that from a global perspective the calls may not necessarily be limited to "either Wincor-Nixdorf or Diebold and they'll give us ready-to-run Windows systems next week with 24-hr support..." when it appears that Lotus 1-2-3 for OS/2 might just be what the "doctor" will recommend for the projects mentioned above. ???
Let's play ball. ;) ;D
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.10, 17:54:30
Quote"To make it clear:
I would be the first to pop the corks for eCS if I'll see it running an ATM - but let's face facts:
Some ATMs are just used to dispense cash. Ok. But looking around here in Germany, these machines get more sophisticated and are targeting to replace humans... meaning, everything that can be done at a counter will soon be done on an ATM - or to call it that way "a multipurpose bank terminal". This means that banks also want to run their web-based applications and their multimedia adverstising on them. Get the picture? I am talking about you looking at an OS/2 or eCS ATM screen and all you'll see is a large empty frame with a jigsaw "(puzzle") piece and a link that says "CLICK HERE TO INSTALL PLUGIN"... :-)"
Okay, come up now and tell me that this is nonsense... I know that it only depends on the efforts to get that things running on ANY platform. Yeah, but why should someone waste time and money to overcome such obstacles if he simply can avoid to mess around with them by selecting another platform, for heaven's sake?
If you were in charge of it and the CIO, CEO and CFO are asking you "what are the possible solutions"... then I guess you know what the decision will be if you tell "we can take OS/2 or eCS, do some proprietary additional hacks for about 1.2 million US$ that will take several months with no support at all - or call either Wincor-Nixdorf or Diebold and they'll give us ready-to-run Windows systems next week with 24-hr support"...
Hmmm... simply because to write an updated Flash Plugin and updated QuickTime plugin would be horrendously cheaper than the support costs for Windows? Scale down a few hundred support personnel to a half dozen, and there's your money to do it right there. Want 24/7 tech support? Easily with the money saved. Want 24/7 availability so as not to lose money and transactions? Don't run Windows - that boosts income as well.
As for Diebold, et al giving 24hr support for running Windows, I am sure they still have support contracts for machines running OS/2. The techs are out there, and many of the ATM companies still have em.
OS/2 is still cheaper in the long run. But it is far easier to find some kid out of college or high school who knows VB to throw something (that doesnt even utilize encryption no less) together in VB and throw it on a "cash machine" - but again, that doesnt really apply to the ATM market with so many OS/2 ATMs out there - the talent pool is still out there - and many of those people are still employed by the ATM companies (and will continue to be so employed until they have no more customers running OS/2 based ATMs).
Everyone seems to keep acting like all OS/2 ATMs have been replaced with Windows - when at 35-40%, that's still MILLIONS of installed, supported, has a tech staff, ATMs. No one flipped a switch magically transforming all the OS/2 ATMs to Windows (and magically making all the OS/2 ATM support staff dissappear).
At my bank, the Windows ATM have a long way to go to catch up to the OS/2 ATM. It takes about twice as long to get cash on Windows.
1. Lots more screens to do the same thing.
2. The ATM beeps quite a bit, because the software apparently does not know if you took the cash, made a deposit, or took your card.
3. Interface design so much less clear that many users are just left staring at the screen, wondering what to do.
4. Machine takes longer to react when selections are made.
Now that graphics, I agree. These graphics are produced on Windows in proprietary formats that play only on Windows.
The security software is not produced for OS/2 -- although it probably could be.
Most important, the ATM sales person has to explain to a non-technical person what OS/2 is. No such explanation needed for Windows.
Finally, there could be OS/2 ATM out there if someone started a company to do so. It won't be me -- I'm busy.
Hi Robert,
Quote from: RobertM on 2008.03.10, 21:41:11
No one flipped a switch magically transforming all the OS/2 ATMs to Windows (and magically making all the OS/2 ATM support staff dissappear).
...well, for VR Bank in Germany it was actually IBM who flipped the switch, even perhaps unintentionally.
To tell a long story short: IBM offered no support for TokenRing networks any longer. In addition (at that time) they had announced their end-of-support statement for OS/2 as well. That added up to no support prolongation for the whole ATM (meaning: including the hardware). So the bank was left with thousands of ATMs which
- had no support for the network any more
- had no support for the OS any more
- had no support for the hardware any more
Great.
Apparently IBM at least offered them "switch to ethernet instead. Switch to Windows instead and you'll get support for the hardware...". As I was told by a guy working at the IT for VR Bank, they seemed to have searched a company that was willing to support them in running OS/2 on the ethernet'ted ATMs... but apparently there was no company "large" enough to chip in. Or perhaps IBM tried to push them aside to make a deal in selling Windows licenese - who cares.
Okay, throwing back the ball now...: ;-)
I agree that it COULD be possible to make a business out of that, BUT:
For me that would require things we simply do not have (as of today and perhaps never will):
- a clear strategy statement from Serenity
- professional business by Mensys
- professional marketing (@Eugene: If you read this - sorry, don't talk to me - this is adults speaking about business, go play ball on the lawn please, I'll call you once dinner's ready...)
- professional level support with fulltime dedicated "key account" SPOCs
And I don't see any glance of these prerequisites on the horizon, sorry. What we currently have is some kind of hope and some people doing great work, some even have plans... but we don't have a BASE FOR BUSINESS. And regardless whatever you keep telling me about IBM having people and ATM corps having people and about any kind of Bauxit and Hydrogen deal face it:
- Tell me a name of an IBM stakeholder who is *the* SALES representative willing to sell OS/2 into a bank
- Tell me a name of Serenity lead that I can take with me into a meeting with bank people
- Tell me a name of someone at Mensys who can guarantee me ... well, whatever.
To sum it up: Tell me someone in the right position with eCS who knows what he's talking about and who knows how business people are "functioning". Oh yes, to make it difficult: It should be someone who keeps promises and cares about customers.
Listen, we used to complain about IBM doing bad marketing (if any) for OS/2.
Any suggestion what people will say about eCS marketing in - let's say - one decade from here?
Regards
Thomas
Hi Saborion2,
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.10, 17:54:30
...and here is why:
"Bosai eyes US$1B refinery, smelter once US$46M bauxite shares deal approved"
"By Nicosia Smith"
"Sunday, January 28th 2007"
http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56512772
"RUSAL to mull hydropower
-refinery, smelter studies also on the cards"
"By Nicosia Smith"
"Thursday, February 8th 2007"
http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56513627
"A feasibility study for hydropower should not take so long, can't previous ones be re-evaluated?"
"Saturday, February 10th 2007"
http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56513805
It is very much the understanding that that when it comes to Russia (from an historical and technological perspective)
"Usage of eComStation and OS/2 Warp operating systems"
http://en.ecomstation.ru/solutions/?action=solutions
Phew. Okay. I surrender:
I've gone through it for the third time now. I might be too tired or just to un-leet... I can't get the picture... would you please explain me what (the heck) the essence of the Bauxit and Hydropower articles is when relating to eComStation?
And please, for heavens sake, don't tell me anything about "Russia... bla bla"... you actually do believe anything that comes from the sources of the O.D.C.F.* ??
*) OralDiarrheaCombatForces
Listen - I don't know if you know Eugene... if Eugene says
"eCO software solutions show eComStation in use in large companies: See eComStation controlling nuclear powerplant in Novosibirsk"
you go "oh" and awe and "wow" ...but...
what it translates to ACTUALLY is the following news:
"On March 10th, 2008, forensics of the russian museum of technology came across an old IBM 386 refurbished PC that was left running in a closed power plant built in the late 1960s, located in a icy desert 650 miles northern of Novosibirsk. After a 3-days in-depth analysis of the vintage technology, the scientists concluded that the burned-in picture on the greyscale 9inch cathode ray tube display was showing an old IBM works spreadsheet that held the janitor's timetable for july 9th, 1998, the day prior to the plant's shutdown."
...you get the picture? ;-)
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.10, 17:54:30
Let's play ball. ;) ;D
"knock" - "swoosh". ;-)
Regards
Thomas
Hi WarpCafe!
"Phew. Okay. I surrender:
I've gone through it for the third time now. I might be too tired or just to un-leet... I can't get the picture... would you please explain me what (the heck) the essence of the Bauxit and Hydropower articles is when relating to eComStation?
And please, for heavens sake, don't tell me anything about "Russia... bla bla"... you actually do believe anything that comes from the sources of the O.D.C.F.* ??
*) OralDiarrheaCombatForces
Listen - I don't know if you know Eugene... if Eugene says
"eCO software solutions show eComStation in use in large companies: See eComStation controlling nuclear powerplant in Novosibirsk"
you go "oh" and awe and "wow" ...but...
what it translates to ACTUALLY is the following news:
"On March 10th, 2008, forensics of the russian museum of technology came across an old IBM 386 refurbished PC that was left running in a closed power plant built in the late 1960s, located in a icy desert 650 miles northern of Novosibirsk. After a 3-days in-depth analysis of the vintage technology, the scientists concluded that the burned-in picture on the greyscale 9inch cathode ray tube display was showing an old IBM works spreadsheet that held the janitor's timetable for july 9th, 1998, the day prior to the plant's shutdown."
Do you care to read the article which can reached by following the attached link:
"IBM denies re-entering PC market with Russian deal"
http://www.news.com/IBM-denies-re-entering-PC-market-with-Russian-deal/2100-1003_3-6233782.html
Now, are "...you (beginning to) get the picture (of OpenOffice for OS/2, eComStation...)? ;)
Question: Being just a little bit curious.... ;) Have you ever "personally" put a project up for international financing? ;)
Hi,
while initially I didn't want to get into that discussion, I feel the need to tell anyway:
Saborion2, please make an effort to not incorporate your replies into the entire quoted block. It makes it tedious to find out what I wrote in comparision to where's what you wrote.
That said - thanks for the ball, let me serve:
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.11, 04:31:14
Do you care to read the article which can reached by following the attached link:
"IBM denies re-entering PC market with Russian deal"
http://www.news.com/IBM-denies-re-entering-PC-market-with-Russian-deal/2100-1003_3-6233782.html
I did. Here's what I draw from it:
> so-called "Open Referent" systems, based on Red Hat Linux and the
> company's own Lotus Symphony software
Wow. Cool.
Ehh... where's the mention of eCS in it?
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.11, 04:31:14
Now, are "...you (beginning to) get the picture (of OpenOffice for OS/2, eComStation...)? ;)
Looking at the articles referred to by you? No.
What I see is a desparate attempt to grab a little sunlight into the darkness of eCS. I see "OpenOffice" and "no Windows" and "open source". Yes. I see eComStation on these machines? No. Do I see any chance that they will install eCS? No. Why should they? RedHat is cheaper than eCS - unless you find someone at Serenity or Mensys reliable and capable enough of selling you that amount of Notebooks with eCS preinstalled at special conditions. -> see what I wrote in the other post regarding "people"...
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.11, 04:31:14
Question: Being just a little bit curious.... ;) Have you ever "personally" put a project up for international financing? ;)
That depends on what you call "project". As for non-profit "projects", I did fund the start of warpstock.eu and warpevents.eu. Does that count? From a professional point of view (in the company I work for: www.sapient.com (http://www.sapient.com)) I did not. However I seem to have "some" experience with international projects... to put it that way. You might call me someone who contributes nothing to the community but keeps on ranting... note that this is not the case (for the rant... it is. ;) ): Until some time ago I was a regular contributor to the VOICE newsletter and assure you that I still love OS/2 and eCS. But in the end of the day, I want something that I can switch on and works as a tool, not something that I use for the benefit and purpose of itself and that keeps my busy fiddling with files (the major reason why I don't like Linux) ;-) .
Saborion, I don't what is going on here:
- I started telling that eCS currently is not suited (for several reasons) to be installed on ATMS.
- Then the thread shifted to Hydropower and Bauxit deals offering chances for eCS. I said no.
- Now we are talking about Notebooks that come with not-Windows preinstalled. again, I say no.
Heck. What is next?
Regarding your above question again: What is it that you ;) want ;) me ;) to ;) tell ;) ??? Okay, heck! Perhaps "No, I did never personally put a project up for international financing" - whatever this means in the depth between words. Did you? You did? Congrats... but what the heck does that relate to what we are talking about? If you did - share your experience with Mensys, eCoSoft and Serenity... that might really help them. Two years from now I'll meet you at the club. the club of frustrated ranters who once had bright ideas until they were disappointed to death by unprofessionalism and bullshit blabla. Do you want me to gain understanding for these poor people because their job is soooooooo hard, or what? To hell with them, I know jobs that are REALLY hard and some even have to do with IT. This task is not hard if only you have a brain. Is it difficult to deal with international financing and putting up projects? Ohhh... I apologize. All my sentiments are with these poor stressed people. Oh come on!
IF THEY CAN'T DO THE JOB, WHY DON'T THEY ASK FOR HELP OR ASK SOMEONE WHO CAN?? That's how "consulting" works, that's what makes out a professional approach. Know_your_limits_first! Nobody forced them to do everything on their own! They do because they think they can. Perhaps they don#t wanto to invest the money needed. So to hell with them.
People don't buy operating systems (except for zealots like you and me ;-) ). What they buy is a box or a special piece of
application software. (Note: This is not an OS). Call it a "solution" if you want. It does the things they want to do. Ideally -if you happen to have used a similar box before- the new one can open your old files. Or not.
Example - what do you think would sell more copies of eCS to corporate users:
- A "maul publisher PC" that comes with eCS and Maul preloaded, ready-to-run out-of-the-box
- A shrinkwrapped bundle of Maul and eCS in a PC store bookshelf
- The same bundle with install and support service though a authorized reseller
You will find that #2 will sell the least copies - but: Surprisingly enough, THAT is exactly what the current "marketing" of eCS is based upon... except for the fact that they even leave out the shrinkwrap bundle part: They sell a copy of eCS in the bookshelf and a copy of Maul publisher somewhere else in the bookshelf.
(Yep, I know a trial copy of Maul is included in eCS - but do they advertise this or any other stuff?)
As a business consultant with at least a little experience in these regards, I can assure you that eCS has an incredible potential to become *the* solution for a lot of needs. (Yes, it's still me talking...)
Unfortunately its future is in the hands of a bunch of headless chicken that have no (master or any) plan and no clue as to how approach the challenge. I don't talk about "timelines", "roadmaps" or "vision" statements, what I'm talking about is a PLAN: Have an idea for something and/or find demand - do marketing and development - sell it (and: support it!!). And I'm not talking about "Piano launchpad is increasing productivity of business user". Whatacrap... What I'm talking about is a box that you hook up and it controls machines, controls (network) traffic, acts as a ZeroConfig server box or even as a set-top-box interface for whatever or a self-service internet or media terminal. Some people call this a "product". Heck. So much could be done if people get their arses off their seats and their heads out of their bosses arses.
I have some ideas in mind and I'm pretty much convinced that these can be done already today with only little efforts. Unfortunately it takes however some basic attitude of professionalism and that is lacking from the current "stakeholders" in eCS. I could go on and talk for hours about my experiences from the past decade at Warpstocks and developer workshops... things that I promised to keep for myself regarding Mensys (that's why I don't tell in public here) or how interface developers are unable to understand what I talk about when showing them a real chance to turn their home-soldered devices into a ready-to-market zero-configuration blackbox if only they could provide an API DLL. ("Oh, this is not difficult. I can do this, someone else can do it too. Yes, but what do you need it for? It already works and does all one might need.")... yawn. I'm fed up... these people have limited minds. They see their piece but don't see the whole.
As a consultant, I usually am paid a king's ransom for "look, understand, improve". And I do this very good, believe me... (Also because I know where my limits are and I'm not afraid to admit that I have no clue when I have no clue... another attitude in professionalism that is lacking in the eCS world. Everybody seems to know everything - at least he knows "better than anybody else"...).
Mind you, I'ld be willing to do my job for free for my beloved OS... but no one is listening. So why not let them drown with their ship for heaven's sake if these ignorants think they are so pretty brialliant to do everything on their own. Yep, go on. Make yourself comfortable in the house of mediocracy and failure. As long as they make their share, it's OK for them. That's the problem. Instead of beating the shit out of these bilterhing idiots, people let them get away with it. I don't want to be part of that freak show, it's a waste of time. In this case, I prefer reading a picture book with my 1-year old son, go to cinema with my daughter, cuddle my cats or even watch TV with my wife. All this are priceless and precious moments in time - especially when compared to "working on eCS".
And finally - here's your ball back.
It's getting dark and mom told me to come home when the lights turn on.
Maybe you'll find someone else that you can throw the ball at - I don't want to play this game any longer. I don't even care what the score is, because in this game nobody actually wins: If it goes on like it's now, we're all nothing but losing in the end.
(That'll learn me to enter an "OT thread" ever again... ;-) )
Cheers
Thomas
Quote from: warpcafe on 2008.03.11, 00:22:54
Hi Robert,
Quote from: RobertM on 2008.03.10, 21:41:11
No one flipped a switch magically transforming all the OS/2 ATMs to Windows (and magically making all the OS/2 ATM support staff dissappear).
...well, for VR Bank in Germany it was actually IBM who flipped the switch, even perhaps unintentionally.
To tell a long story short: IBM offered no support for TokenRing networks any longer. In addition (at that time) they had announced their end-of-support statement for OS/2 as well. That added up to no support prolongation for the whole ATM (meaning: including the hardware). So the bank was left with thousands of ATMs which
- had no support for the network any more
- had no support for the OS any more
- had no support for the hardware any more
Great.
...And a lot of other great points (Snipped for brevity - see Thomas' post below)...
To sum it up: Tell me someone in the right position with eCS who knows what he's talking about and who knows how business people are "functioning". Oh yes, to make it difficult: It should be someone who keeps promises and cares about customers.
Listen, we used to complain about IBM doing bad marketing (if any) for OS/2.
Any suggestion what people will say about eCS marketing in - let's say - one decade from here?
Regards
Thomas
You are correct. I think it would have been a very viable market when the transition started - as there were companies who could have jumped in to "fill the void" - nowadays, you are correct, Serenity Systems would need a clear statement for the next few years, and a company large enough would need to be in place to provide the specialized support needed for an ATM infrastructure - and further detracting from that possibility is many banks now see the "need" for far larger support staffs to address issues, which while may not be the case with a properly set up OS/2 ATM network, is unlikely something that upper management would understand or believe ("You plan on supporting that many machines with that few people?").
On that same mindset, any OS/2 based solution will also need to overcome the "OS/2 cant do that" mentality - many of which issues have been resolved - but since
all of them have not, it's hard to convince people (upper/middle management) that
any have been resolved (especially with so many people/places/websites indicating that
none have been resolved) - or that the remaining ones
can be resolved. Much less, be resolved relatively cheaply (or very cheaply in the long run).
And of course, there is one other issue... while most companies seem to expect larger support costs for their infrastructure, they expect lower install costs - and few (if any) large companies seem to look at "In 2 years we will have save $$$#### by using this solution" - and instead look at "We have to lay out HOW MUCH to get it running???" (without factoring in the savings over time).
And countering IBM's total disavowal of OS/2 is of course a tremendous obstacle. I do quite well in that respect because the servers we install are never intended for the customer to directly use or see - so all they want to know is that the back end is functioning as expected - and never look at the machine. Different scenario on something that tons of customers use every day - and many employees have to interact with every day both locally (adding/removing cash, putting in more paper, clearing transaction logs for picked up transactions/deposits) and remotely (updating the ads on the ATMs, adding new menu options for "Direct Banking" features, etc)... so I think I am kinda of (erroneously) equating the situation with the ease we are having in my business' endeavors - which dont fully apply without the points you mentioned that I expounded upon above.
I stand corrected... and of all people, I should definitely know what's possible - and what people either believe is possible or cheaper or easier or better or _______ is all a matter of perception. :(
-Robert
But as you have noted, perception is the crux of the matter. Look at Apple fanatics, or how Linux really has not gained much traction, or the Microsoft haters. Perception is everything :\
Hi "warpcafe"!
Re: "And finally - here's your ball back.
It's getting dark and mom told me to come home when the lights turn on.
Maybe you'll find someone else that you can throw the ball at - I don't want to play this game any longer. I don't even care what the score is, because in this game nobody actually wins: If it goes on like it's now, we're all nothing but losing in the end.
(That'll learn me to enter an "OT thread" ever again... ;-) )"
That said, and with all due respect... it goes without saying - it is so nice to be nice :) You know, that stroke of yours that got the "ball" back onto my court :) reminded me of my own mother (may she rest in peace) who preserved some files (manually generated) for me while I was gone away for a number of years (thinking occasionally as to whether "flying or golfing" will appease the mind from the harrowing experience) . The reason I had those files was the fact that I was involved in project preparation that required international considerations (and, I respectfully beg to disagree with you when you say that "If it goes on like it's now, we're all nothing but losing in the end"; and, from the choice of "game" it would be quite impossible from a practical standpoint to hit a "ball" all around the world ;) so; maybe, the choice of "extracurricular activity" should have been more appropriately that of one where it involves the "Search For Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence" (SETI) and the application of scientific methods which show that where there is "heat" (energy) loss there is "heat" (energy) gained. The resultant being "no" loss... Thus applying this formula to the efforts of the indomitable President - Kim Haverblad et al of the OS/2 World Federation in the request to IBM to Open-Source the beloved OS and in the context of the SETI Program then from all appearances - rather than the "lights just being turned on" after it gets dark in your corner of the world there will be lots of other "children" like myself who will not sleep until the first "sighting" (what better an OS than OS/2 which from all expectations will not "crash" at what can be a once in a lifetime opportunity :) ).
Hopefully, just hopefully the World Federation (and not its dis affectionate parents Microsoft, IBM...) will see the baby that was thrown out with the bath water grow up to be an "engine" of economic growth for some the world over and a source of entertainment, enjoyment, satisfaction... In being a good "sport" they say; "It Is Not Whether You Lose Or Win; But, It Is How You Play The Game That Matters". :) BTW, I ended up with the "files" because a few "so-called" senior players on my team thought that they had a better chance in winning the "game" (after which they can go "flying or golfing" Do you know that story?) without folks with specialized skills. Against such a background one should wonder how many OS/2 Developers around the world can collectively apply their skills (become like Santa) and to give all the :( "children" around the world a toy called OS/3. Gosh, who needs to sleep when there are still those expectations of making that "First Contact" :) :) :)
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.11, 22:06:59
But as you have noted, perception is the crux of the matter. Look at Apple fanatics, or how Linux really has not gained much traction, or the Microsoft haters. Perception is everything :\
Yeah, sad, isn't it? And marketing. As an example, there are a plethora of things I dont like about Windows - or it's marketing - like how Vista boots so much faster (ummm... no resumes from S3/S4 state - but pretends it is booting), etc... but the fact is, it (well, Windows in general)
is the right tool for the job for certain people.
Same applies to everything... but marketing and perception get in the way of people making better choices. Oh well... that's business for ya!
;D
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.12, 20:05:31
...Do you know that story?[/color][/color]) without folks with specialized skills. Against such a background one should wonder how many OS/2 Developers around the world can collectively apply their skills (become like Santa) and to give all the :( "children" around the world a toy called OS/3....
An interesting question indeed... and one worth studying. I
can tell you that there is one group out there that is looking into such things from multiple perspectives - both for multiple parts of OS/2 and for (past and potentially future) OS/2 native apps. Will the effort be successful? Well, in my opinion, it will be to at least some extent. I think a lot depends on the developer: their interest and feelings on the matter, whether or not they have a still binding NDA (or something similar) that would prevent their help, whether or not (like a few past) they feel that if they cant get what they want for ____ they aren't going to "play ball" at all, whether or not they feel like they have been burned and just dont care, whether or not they still have the resources neccessary (or code required in the case of pre-existing work).
A lot of "ifs" but at least there is a group out there trying to coordinate such things. With luck, they'll make some headway. And with luck, they'll find this site and forums and maybe post something -
when the time is right.
Only time will tell I guess...