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WebSite Information => Article Discussions => Topic started by: Andi710 on 2008.03.19, 08:18:09

Title: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Andi710 on 2008.03.19, 08:18:09
It's good to be up-to-date with the OOo code base. Unfortunately text drag and drop still does not work :o(
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.19, 16:43:54
In agreement 100%  :)  with you that; "It's good to be up-to-date with the OOo code base.  ;). The question is, How far are we away from being able to address the following "Spread Sheet Functionality":

Converting from Internal Rate of Return (IRR) to Economic Rate of Return (ERR)!!!

"Re: Concerning the issues with 1-2-3 that are talked about in the documentation you gave me, most of the issues are related to converting files between older and newer versions of product and converting documents between Lotus and Microsoft. Anytime a file is saved backwards or saved with an older file format than the format the file was created under, such as saving a 1-2-3 , 97 file for Windows 95 into a WK1 format for DOS, then naturally we are expected to loose certain features due to technology and features that are present now that were not present 8 - 10 years ago. Similarly, if we try to convert a file from Lotus into Excel or Excel into Lotus, due to differences in the products not every feature will be converted perfectly with the file filters that are available. Both Lotus and Microsoft create similar spreadsheet programs; however, there are several differences in both programs and these differences will remain to distinguish the products apart. We do try to design conversion filters that will allow as much of the file formats as possible to be exchanged and converted without disrupting the actual file design and format.

In one of your letters you made mention of the @IRR and @ERR functions in the 1-2-3 product. By design the @IRR (notably "absent" in Open Office) will calculate the Internal Rate of Return; where the @ERR is used in conjunction with other formulas, posted was an "ERR" showing an error was received in the calculations. As far as I can see in the program I cannot find an @ERR function that will allow us to calculate an Economic Rate of Return"

Best regards.

Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Andi710 on 2008.03.19, 19:51:37
Probably because 'internal rate of return' is one of the worst measures to base investment decisions on. Use NPV (Net Present Value) instead or, if you really want to be precise, a real option approach! ;o)
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.19, 20:35:34
You said; "Probably because 'Internal Rate of Return' is one of the worst measures to base investment decisions on. Use NPV (Net Present Value) instead..." Now, isn't that very funny since this is one of the Financial Analyses Tools that are used by the United Nation Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO). Here, follow the attached link and see for yourself. ;) :-

http://www.unido.org/doc/3383

http://www.win2biz.com/comfar/default.htm

http://www.npsnconference.ir/Files/File/REGISTFORM_05_2008.pdf

Question is: What do "you" know that the "folks" at the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO) among others don't know.?

Good luck to you.
 
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: djcaetano on 2008.03.20, 00:23:14
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.19, 20:35:34
You said; "Probably because 'Internal Rate of Return' is one of the worst measures to base investment decisions on. Use NPV (Net Present Value) instead..." Now, isn't that very funny since this is one of the Financial Analyses Tools that are used by the United Nation Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO). Here, follow the attached link and see for yourself. ;) :-
Question is: What do "you" know that the "folks" at the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO) among others don't know.?

  I miss IRR function too. BTW, AFAIK, IRR and NPV measure different things... it doesn't make sense (for me) exchanging one for another.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 03:13:35
How about we get it to not be amazingly slow? I didnt know my 3.06ghz P4 with HT and 2gb of RAM would feel this slow opening OO, but it is. Its kinda inexcusably slow.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 05:09:16
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 03:13:35
How about we get it to not be amazingly slow? I didnt know my 3.06ghz P4 with HT and 2gb of RAM would feel this slow opening OO, but it is. Its kinda inexcusably slow.

Enable the preload option/tool... that is how it is done on Windows IIRC - and will cut load times down considerably.

-R
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 05:17:56
No, I have it off in Windows XP, and it still starts about 2x as fast. I've posted the time comparisons here before in another thread. Also, I'm taking about the use of the program's GUI as well once it has finally decided that it wishes to load.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 06:04:03
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 05:17:56
No, I have it off in Windows XP, and it still starts about 2x as fast. I've posted the time comparisons here before in another thread. Also, I'm taking about the use of the program's GUI as well once it has finally decided that it wishes to load.


Hmmm....





I have not compared it to Windows (and havent tried the latest beta), but the things I can tell you that I have noticed are:

Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Robert Deed on 2008.03.20, 06:33:58
All valid suggestions.  I believe it even recommends installing OO on JFS in the read me files.  In my experience the OS/2 port of OO are on par for any of the 3rd party ports, infact performance is much better then on Mac OS X (even though they basically just recompiled the linux build for mac X11.. I am starting to think that making a decent up to date hoblink/exceed PM x11 would be a great way to get apps quickly to OS/2 and then add OS/2 specific code in as time allows).  It is INCREDIBLY slow on Mac OS (I've tried both PPC and Intel versions on various macs, not to mention that mac is alot less hardware dependent then OS/2).  Obviously for any large graphical app you're going to want a video card which is supported ACCELERATED by SNAP.  Some people out here might like PANORAMA however panorama while being a great choice for a video card completely unsupported by snap is significantly slower then a full accelerated driver.  (I've tested between panorama on a ATI X1650 GT 512mb and a ATI Radeon Pro 9700 64mb.. and the 9700 is MUCH faster then the X1650 which would smoke a 9700 if it was accelerated). 

Otherwise like I've said, I have used many different versions of OO, Windows, Linux, OS/2, MacOS and the OS/2 builds on my machine (AMD Athlon X2 4000+, 2gb ram, 1tb Hitachi HD, JFS, ecs 2.0 RC4, ATI Radeon 9700 w/ Snap)  are on par with any other version I have used.  Infact the writer actually opens up faster on my OS/2 machine with quickstart off then it does on my wifes windows machine (same hardware except an x1650 gt) with quickstart on. 

Quote from: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 06:04:03
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 05:17:56
No, I have it off in Windows XP, and it still starts about 2x as fast. I've posted the time comparisons here before in another thread. Also, I'm taking about the use of the program's GUI as well once it has finally decided that it wishes to load.


Hmmm....


  • What file system is it installed on? (HPFS/JFS/HPFS386?)
  • What type of video card (nVidia/ATI/other) and what video driver (SNAP/Panorama) are you using?
  • Is the XP version a GA version or a beta? (the OS/2 beta's presumably have lotsa debug code loaded, which will slow them down noticeably).




I have not compared it to Windows (and havent tried the latest beta), but the things I can tell you that I have noticed are:


  • OO on nVidia or Intel 845 chipsets (with SNAP - havent tried Panorama) is horrendously slow for any drawing, scrolling, updating (my PII 300 runs it faster than a 2GHz machine and nVidia card) - it's not OO, it's OO's reliance on crappy nVidia support by SNAP.

  • For OO (and Ceres Sound Studio - and presumably various other apps), there is a very noticeable speed increase when running on JFS.

    As an example my speed comparisons were with Ceres on HPFS386 (with a couple hundred megs of cache) and Ceres on JFS (with 64MB cache). Ceres, when editing audio, writes the Undo and processing buffers (entire copies of the current memory sets) to disk (unless you have gigs of RAM and tell it to use RAM - but the default is disk). JFS outperformed HPFS386 by a factor of almost 10.

    I'm guessing (especially from such hints that came with various versions of OO/2) that OO will also benefit from a noticeable speed increase from going to JFS... and in 99% of the OS/2 users case out there, it will be far more noticeable than mine (HPFS386 is definitely faster than HPFS - and I'd guess 99% of the OS/2 users are running plain HPFS).


  • Another odd thing I noticed is that it goes a little slower (loading) if Firefox (v2s) is also running - but that could simply be because this machine doesnt have much memory - and the two use large amounts requiring OS/2 to juggle memory around to provide contiguous segments or who knows what - (making that part up - but it sounded good and might explain that behavior)

Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 06:46:17
Oooh... I forgot a suggestion that may impact performance in OO and other apps (not Ceres - it uses it's own temp paths - which you can and should configure to use a JFS volume)... but I also move the swap file AND all temp directories to a JFS drive. Does wonders when a machine either (a) starts to swap to the swap file and/or (b) starts writing temp files to disk.

Having different disks on different controllers is a great way of speeding things up even more... IIRC, OS/2 can simultaneously do multiple concurrent disk writes - but two IDE drives on the same chain do not support such. SATA I think should since each is on it's own "controller".

And a final tech note... do NOT connect your IDE drive to the same ribbon cable as your optical drive (unless by some miracle you have an optical drive that supports ATA133 and the rest of the feature set the IDE HDD does)... doing so is a great way of slowing down the performance of the IDE HDD. It is better to have two IDE HDDs on the same cable than to have one sharing a cable with an optical drive. I dont recall exactly which feature that the HDD has (that the optical one doesnt) that is not usable in such a configuration - but it is a performance related one. As far as I have read, it was never fully rectified...
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Robert Deed on 2008.03.20, 06:50:07
DOH! I completely forgot about that.  All my hardware is SATA, and with 2GB I hardly ever get any swapping.  In fact my swapper has stayed at its initial size since I installed ecs.  It is amazing to me how many people I know who built their own machines and put the HD and cdrom on the same controller.  I personally always keep my opticals on seperate channels if I can, copying from an IDE DVD-ROM to a IDE DVD-R is no fun if they are on the same controller channel.


Quote from: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 06:46:17
Oooh... I forgot a suggestion that may impact performance in OO and other apps (not Ceres - it uses it's own temp paths - which you can and should configure to use a JFS volume)... but I also move the swap file AND all temp directories to a JFS drive. Does wonders when a machine either (a) starts to swap to the swap file and/or (b) starts writing temp files to disk.

Having different disks on different controllers is a great way of speeding things up even more... IIRC, OS/2 can simultaneously do multiple concurrent disk writes - but two IDE drives on the same chain do not support such. SATA I think should since each is on it's own "controller".

And a final tech note... do NOT connect your IDE drive to the same ribbon cable as your optical drive (unless by some miracle you have an optical drive that supports ATA133 and the rest of the feature set the IDE HDD does)... doing so is a great way of slowing down the performance of the IDE HDD. It is better to have two IDE HDDs on the same cable than to have one sharing a cable with an optical drive. I dont recall exactly which feature that the HDD has (that the optical one doesnt) that is not usable in such a configuration - but it is a performance related one. As far as I have read, it was never fully rectified...
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:02:25
Thanks for the general hardware hints, but I am fully aware of all these things, you forget I am a gamer and I build my rig from scratch :P Unfortunately, yes, I am using Panorama, but with Shadow Buffer On (performance akin to SNAP with Accel for most things). I know scrolling will be slow, but I'm not referencing that. I am using eCS 2.0 RC4 on a JFS drive, 8gb, WD IDE with UDMA 5/PIO4. My machine specs are in my sig, I have plenty of RAM. I'm commenting on the very long startup time VS OO for Windows, and how unresponsive the menus are, and how generally sluggish the program strikes me as being. If indeed this is a native app, then it by no means should be this pokey. I was under the impression it was hobbled by being emulated, but apparently this is not the case. Oh well, its the only option we have, but thats no reason to be complacent.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 07:12:21
Well, then I would wait for the GA version... the last release of OO/2 I found the GA version a lot faster than the beta versions.

QuoteThanks for the general hardware hints, but I am fully aware of all these things, you forget I am a gamer and I build my rig from scratch

No... I just remember that when playing with Ceres, I was so into playing with it that *I* forgot all those things until about a month later when I got less enthused with using the app, and more interested in resolving it's performance bottlenecks.  ;D

So I figured just in case...  ;)
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:21:01
Haha, thanks :) I don't do anything intensive under eCS, so I would hope that my (admittedly modest in modern times) hardware will be enough. I mean, I can run Crysis, F.E.A.R, Half-Life 2, etc etc, so I really get rather miffed when an office application takes longer to open than a high-end game like Team Fortress 2. ??? Call me crazy, I know, but still :P
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Robert Deed on 2008.03.20, 07:22:55
Please don't spout that propaganda those russians that coded panorama have put out.  Panorama's performance is no where near that of a full accelerated driver.  Shadow buffer is no replacement for acceleration and most SNAP drivers actually make use of it as well.  

Obviously your initial start up time shows that someone is definitely a bit wonky.  What JFS settings are you using? Though read time should be about the same no matter how you have it configured.  Are you using the newest DANI driver?  Possibly get some drive throughput benchmarks from sysbench.  I had a problem a few months ago and found that my 32bit access was disabled by default in my bios (which was a bit odd, but I have confirmed with other machines with the same board they all shipped this way)  my bootup time went from 3mins to 32 seconds.  I'm not saying that is it, but it is possible that your disk drivers are failing to initalize in the correct mode.

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:02:25
Thanks for the general hardware hints, but I am fully aware of all these things, you forget I am a gamer and I build my rig from scratch :P Unfortunately, yes, I am using Panorama, but with Shadow Buffer On (performance akin to SNAP with Accel for most things). I know scrolling will be slow, but I'm not referencing that. I am using eCS 2.0 RC4 on a JFS drive, 8gb, WD IDE with UDMA 5/PIO4. My machine specs are in my sig, I have plenty of RAM. I'm commenting on the very long startup time VS OO for Windows, and how unresponsive the menus are, and how generally sluggish the program strikes me as being. If indeed this is a native app, then it by no means should be this pokey. I was under the impression it was hobbled by being emulated, but apparently this is not the case. Oh well, its the only option we have, but thats no reason to be complacent.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:27:50
No, 32-bit access is on for all drives, and I am using the latest DANI drivers. My JFS settings are at the system default, I am trying to keep this install of eCS running longer than my previous best of 1 month, which I believe I have beaten at this point (w00t!).

Well, you know what, unless someone makes a new SNAP that supports my 7600GT, Panorama with Shadow Buffer is all I have, and it beats SNAP VESA and IBM GRADD to DEATH in terms of performance and usability. Its fine for moving windows (impossible under any other driver), and working with the GUI. Granted, scrolling is a bit pokey, but I can accept that for now. I can even run DIVE apps reasonably. I would love to have an accelerated driver for my card, but it aint ever happening. And I have no intention of putting my FX 5500 back in JUST to use eCS with "acceleration", if you can even call it that.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 07:27:54
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:21:01
Haha, thanks :) I don't do anything intensive under eCS, so I would hope that my (admittedly modest in modern times) hardware will be enough. I mean, I can run Crysis, F.E.A.R, Half-Life 2, etc etc, so I really get rather miffed when an office application takes longer to open than a high-end game like Team Fortress 2. ??? Call me crazy, I know, but still :P

Admittedly modest?!?!?!?!  >:(

;D  ;D  ;D

Other than my servers, all my workstations would thus be categorized as "admittedly ancient"  ;D My fastest was an Intel 845 series mobo with a P4 2.8 - then I decided to turn it into a backup server and file server... leaving my current fastest as this machine with a whoppingly fast AMD Athlon 1.1GHz CPU and 512MB memory.

As for how long it takes to open... doesnt bother me... gives me an excuse to switch to Firefox and read slashdot.org or here or startreknewvoyages.com for just a few minutes longer.

;)
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Robert Deed on 2008.03.20, 07:30:05
Would love to know why it starts so quickly here though.

3 seconds from click to open and usable.

On macOS on a G5 PPC mac with 1gb ram it takes 1 min for the window to apear, and then 45seconds to render the UI.

Quote from: RobertM on 2008.03.20, 07:27:54
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:21:01
Haha, thanks :) I don't do anything intensive under eCS, so I would hope that my (admittedly modest in modern times) hardware will be enough. I mean, I can run Crysis, F.E.A.R, Half-Life 2, etc etc, so I really get rather miffed when an office application takes longer to open than a high-end game like Team Fortress 2. ??? Call me crazy, I know, but still :P

Admittedly modest?!?!?!?!  >:(

;D  ;D  ;D

Other than my servers, all my workstations would thus be categorized as "admittedly ancient"  ;D My fastest was an Intel 845 series mobo with a P4 2.8 - then I decided to turn it into a backup server and file server... leaving my current fastest as this machine with a whoppingly fast AMD Athlon 1.1GHz CPU and 512MB memory.

As for how long it takes to open... doesnt bother me... gives me an excuse to switch to Firefox and read slashdot.org or here or startreknewvoyages.com for just a few minutes longer.

;)
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:31:34
Well Robert, in light of CPUs like Intel's Quad Core Extreme, or even the "modest" Dual-Core e6850, my CPU is basically nothing more than a Casio Calculator Watch. Its sad when the VIA C7- (2.0ghz) [VIA CPUs are considered to be miserably slow by today's standards] beats my CPU out by 30,000 points in a benchmarking utility. I also have slooow RAM (PC2100, blegh) with no Dual-Channel support, and a slow FSB of 533mhz. I am also crippled by IDE and AGP 4x bus, all coming together to make a computer that gets larfed at by anything else around.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Robert Deed on 2008.03.20, 07:34:45
Up until I switched out to a X1650 I had been using a Matrox G400Max in my gaming machine and it was actually performing quite well.  (I had hacked the drivers to do some things they shouldn't).  Though anytime a VIA (cyrix) chip beats anything in a benchmark it is a cold day in hell.

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:31:34
Well Robert, in light of CPUs like Intel's Quad Core Extreme, or even the "modest" Dual-Core e6850, my CPU is basically nothing more than a Casio Calculator Watch. Its sad when the VIA C7- (2.0ghz) [VIA CPUs are considered to be miserably slow by today's standards] beats my CPU out by 30,000 points in a benchmarking utility. I also have slooow RAM (PC2100, blegh) with no Dual-Channel support, and a slow FSB of 533mhz. I am also crippled by IDE and AGP 4x bus, all coming together to make a computer that gets larfed at by anything else around.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 07:39:06
The 30k points were mostly in how the VIA raped my P4 in terms of AES and other encryption algorithms, but that is to be expected, as the VIA are the only CPUs with hardware encryption engines. It also did marginally better with other compression/decompression things like image decoding and archive decompression. Its a cold day, but I like where VIA is going. I like the idea of green tech, and I hope that Nvidia doesn't destroy that when they acquire VIA. I still want a VIA C7-M based computer, possibly the gPC or gPC dev board so that I can retire my P3-Celeron back home :)
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Andi710 on 2008.03.20, 09:01:14
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.03.19, 20:35:34
You said; "Probably because 'Internal Rate of Return' is one of the worst measures to base investment decisions on. Use NPV (Net Present Value) instead..." Now, isn't that very funny since this is one of the Financial Analyses Tools that are used by the United Nation Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO). Here, follow the attached link and see for yourself. ;) :-

http://www.unido.org/doc/3383

http://www.win2biz.com/comfar/default.htm

http://www.npsnconference.ir/Files/File/REGISTFORM_05_2008.pdf

Question is: What do "you" know that the "folks" at the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO) among others don't know.?

Good luck to you.
 

This is heavily off topic now, but just have a look into any good finance intro book to learn about the trouble with IRR. Just try to evaluate a portfolio of projects, try to evaluate a project where cash flows get re-invested etc. A nice intro is in Copeland Weston and Shastri (2005): "Financial Theory and Corporate Policy", Chapter 2F.

Why does UNIDO use it - maybe because it's built in to Excel? ;o) Maybe because they are bureaucrats that need to get paid for the quantity of cases they evaluate? Maybe because the guys deciding about the rules of evaluation got their education quite some time ago and science went on - frankly, I don't know.

What I do know from the projects I was part in (among them an investment project with almost 2 billion EUR in volume - initially, before we helped our client to save 30% of it), that it's not unusual that you need to explain a corporate decision maker why something like discounting is a good idea at all. And I recognize that authority often overrules reason - especially if you can afford wasting money because there is no competitive pressure that forces you to be smart to survive. Large scale public projects are a perfect example here.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: melf on 2008.03.20, 09:59:29
Well back to numbers again, this is my timings on LG22PTV centrino dual core 1.75Ghz:

                     winXP      eCS RC4

OO 1:st      10 sec      5 sec   (preload)
OO 2:nd      2 sec      2 sec   (preload)

OO 1:st          18 sec          29 sec (no preload)
OO 2:nd         4 sec            20 sec (no preload)

As you see on my system OO in XP is faster than OO in eCS if not preloaded, but slower if preloaded.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: djcaetano on 2008.03.20, 15:26:39
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 05:17:56
No, I have it off in Windows XP, and it still starts about 2x as fast. I've posted the time comparisons here before in another thread. Also, I'm taking about the use of the program's GUI as well once it has finally decided that it wishes to load.

  Weird enough, I find this behaviour really annoying; but it is not a problem with OS/2... it's a problem with OO/2 code ... probably debug code being enabled. How can I say that? Well, Windows OpenOffice 2.x running via ODIN/Innotek Runtime is at least twice as fast as OO/2 in loading times. And I said "at least".

  I really hope a "native" final version, without debug data, will be faster than an ODINized one. But only time will tell. :P
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: djcaetano on 2008.03.20, 15:32:59
Quote from: Robert Deed on 2008.03.20, 07:22:55
Please don't spout that propaganda those russians that coded panorama have put out.  Panorama's performance is no where near that of a full accelerated driver.  Shadow buffer is no replacement for acceleration and most SNAP drivers actually make use of it as well. 

  Please, stop blaming russian programmers. :P
  They never stated Panorama to be faster than accelerated drivers, they just stated that Panorama with Shadow Buffer is waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than SNAP VESA driver (and this is a true fact). Panorama with SB is about 90% of the speed on direct video access and has only 40% of the speed on PM graphic routines when compared to accelerated graphics. It's not an incredible performance, but it is superb for a VESA driver, indeed.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: kim on 2008.03.20, 15:36:57
Even if this thread now is about the late upcoming of the 2.4 Beta 1; but hey why didn't the skip the 2.4 beta and got right on to the OOo 3 beta?
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.20, 15:47:03
Nicely said; but, Hey! off topic... and yet you went on with; "Why does UNIDO use it - maybe because it's built in to Excel? ;o) Maybe because they are bureaucrats that need to get paid for the quantity of cases they evaluate? Maybe because the guys deciding about the rules of evaluation got their education quite some time ago and science went on - frankly, I don't know.

What I do know from the projects I was part in (among them an investment project with almost 2 billion EUR in volume - initially, before we helped our client to save 30% of it), that it's not unusual that you need to explain a corporate decision maker why something like discounting is a good idea at all..."  ;) Matter of fact, it was not only the UNIDO; but, also and more so the Inter-American Development Bank - IDB ( http://www.iadb.org ) and it will appear quite incomprehensible the down and out people in the Latin American and Caribbean countries that the Inter-American Development Bank serves quite fit the bureaucratic labeling.  ???.

Re: "maybe because it's built in to Excel?". The Internal Rate of Return (IRR) functionality as far as I do know comes integrated into the IBM's Lotus 1-2-3, the IBM's Lotus Notes Productivity Suite, IBM's Lotus Symphony and Open Office's - Calc Spread Sheet Applications; so, it is not the case that the Internal Rate of Return (IRR) is restricted to the Microsoft's Excel Application alone.

Then again; are we done now with the question or what - stopping at the Internal  Rate of Return (IRR) computations... what about the question with regards to the ability to convert from the Internal Rate of Return (IRR) values to the Economic Rate of Return (ERR) values during the evaluation of projects requiring international considerations.

Just curious.. (re: "What I do know from the projects I was part in (among them an investment project with almost 2 billion EUR in volume") which country are you in and what is it that you do at present (job wise  ;) .

Also, do you have any idea as to why the feasibility of some particular projects have to take as much as three years to be completed.  ??? Maybe your expertise is needed here. ;) !

"RUSAL to mull hydropower
-refinery, smelter studies also on the cards"

http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56513627

"IAMGOLD seeking 'amicable' solution to bauxite sale
-says will incur US$30M loss"

http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=56513150

Here is a glimpse of COMFETAR - LIVE for you:

http://www-304.ibm.com/jct09002c/gsdod/solutiondetails.do?solution=14283&expand=true&lc=en

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.20, 17:21:17
Thanks for clarifying whats up DJ, I was wondering why OS/2 OO would be so damned slow, when OS/2 benchmarked the exact same score in SuperPI as Windows XP did, indicating that the two OSs are on par as far as CPU work is concerned. Now that OO/2 is mostly modern, I'm quite happy with it, though its still too slow to use comfortably. I can only hope it improves with time, and stays in step with the other Big 3 of OO.

And I actually like Panorama, its pretty damned fast, and beats SNAP VESA and IBM GRADD to death. It could certainly use some more improvements and optimizations (especially where scrolling is concerned [yuck!]), but its pretty great as is. Also, the SMP text-mode crash needs fixings, I cant handle that. I shouldn't have to choose between SMP and a stable video driver.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: miturbide on 2008.03.27, 20:49:06
Today it was announced that OpenOffice.org 2.4 is GA for Window/Linux/Solaris.
http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/03/27/172206.shtml

Lets hope that the OS/2 version became GA soon.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.27, 21:14:03
Ditto. ;) "Lets hope that the OS/2 version became GA soon". The question from us at this end is whether or not the soon to be GA Version of "Open Office" has integrated - the Economic Rate of Return (ERR) Functionality that was previously mentioned in this thread.  :-X

Also, why does it appear that almost anything OS/2 has to be the "last" as if it is - "Saving The Best For Last?"  :(
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.28, 00:17:34
Judging by how A) outdated B) crippled and C) slow our releases of OO have been, they certainly are NOT saving the best for last.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.28, 04:52:52
On the other hand; and, in relation to; re: "Judging by how A) outdated B) crippled and C) slow our releases of OO have been, they certainly are NOT saving the best for last". The OS/2 Operating System and Applications that run under OS/2 do not have to necessarily be just like the rest of the OSes (the question of "Different Strokes" For "Different Folks"...  ;D ) The reasons why it was read quite recently that there are now some 12,000 distributions of the Linux Operating System.  ???
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.28, 07:08:35
What has that to do at all with the fact that our ONLY office suite worth anything is outdated, cripled, and slow? Nothing. I mean sure, if you are okay with using an operating system with crap software, be my quest. OSX isnt too expensive. But really, come on now, having sub-par versions of software compared to the SAME software on other OSs does NOTHING to help eCS or attract new users. Be realisitc.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.28, 07:40:43
You said; "What has that to do at all with the fact that our ONLY office suite worth anything is outdated, crippled, and slow? Nothing. I mean sure, if you are okay with using an operating system with crap software, be my quest". Firstly, here is a quote from another discussion forum for you; "However, we already have OpenOffice 2 and Lotus SmartSuite is still a far, far better suite. Symphony has a lot of catching up to do..."

http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/supportThread.jspa?threadID=2715&tstart=1

So, from the above - I did not have to be the one talking about it/them but someone else; and, that was about Lotus SmartSuite. How about explaining how much so the tasks that you have at hand are so *sophisticated* that an application like Lotus SmartSuite for OS/2 will not allow you to complete it adequately.  :-X

"Lotus SmartSuite 1.7 for OS/2"

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/lotus/products/smartsuite/os2features.html

All for your kind information about yet another *legendary* alternative Office suite for the OS/2 Operating System.  ;)

Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.28, 07:57:52
That suite is non functional as far as I am concerned. Its outdated and its not free. For another thing, it is worthless in an academic environment as it can not read/write the document formats that I need and encounter on a daily basis. I dont know why you think that stagnation is a good thing for this OS, but whatever floats your boat I suppose. Also, Symphony IS good, but its based upon SWTSwing which we do not yet have a good enough version to make Symphony run. OO is our only real option, and its a poor one in the shape it is in now.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.28, 16:56:37
Your arguments appear to be without merits or your are not very familar with other sections of this OS/2 World web site since you have said  among other things; "I don't know why you think that stagnation is a good thing for this OS, but whatever floats your boat I suppose. Also, Symphony IS good, but its based upon SWTSwing which we do not yet have a good enough version to make Symphony run. OO is our only real option, and its a poor one in the shape it is in now".

While it is not known exactly what your current occupation is at this time and how many trade shows, seminars... you attend - what can be said to you is that if you were following the Lotus Development Corporation's strategies over the the years you might have known that they are having what is called a "Development Continuum" and from what was gathered quite recently is that the "Open" Lotus SmartSuite strategy which was embarked upon over a year ago has now morphed into Lotus Symphony and quite different from what you are saying here is what one is able to do with Lotus Symphony currently: 

Quote; "Are you a Developer interested to learn more? The new IBM Lotus Symphony Developer's Toolkit for creating plug-ins and powerful composite applications is here. So, whether you are a IBM® Lotus® Notes® developer using LotusScript or a Java developer on Eclipse, you have the ability to leverage Lotus Symphony in your business applications".

"Get the Developer Toolkit"

http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/home.jspa

Also, this is what is known about SWT:

"SWT is the software component that delivers native widget functionality for the Eclipse platform in an operating system independent manner.  It is analogous to AWT/Swing in Java with a difference - SWT uses a rich set of native widgets.  Even in an ideal situation, industrial strength cross platform widget libraries are very difficult to write and maintain.  This is due to the inherent complexity of widget systems and the many subtle differences between platforms.  There are several basic approaches that have helped significantly to reduce the complexity of the problem and deliver high quality libraries.  This article discusses one of them, the low level implementation techniques used to implement SWT on different platforms".

http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-SWT-Design-1/SWT-Design-1.html

Additionally, to/in your mind... What do you think are the reasons why the following "BOUNTIES" were sponsored?  ???

1.  " SWTSwing ($175) - (2007.08.02)"

http://www.os2world.com/content/view/14799/71/

2.   "Eclipse.org Standard Windowing Toolkit (SWT) OS/2 Port ($125)"

http://www.os2world.com/content/view/340/71/

3.  " Native OS/2 Port of Lotus Notes (Hannover) ($50) - (2007.04.13)"

http://www.os2world.com/content/view/347/71/

4.  " OS/2 native port of Java 6 ($340) - (2006.02.19)"

http://www.os2world.com/content/view/337/71/

5.  " OS2 & eCS kernel ($75) - (2007.03.15)"

http://www.os2world.com/content/view/346/71/

All in all, it may take time; but, eventually we will complete the journey with OS/2.  ;)

Have a nice day!
 
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: djcaetano on 2008.03.28, 17:15:55
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.28, 07:57:52
That suite is non functional as far as I am concerned. Its outdated and its not free. For another thing, it is worthless in an academic environment as it can not read/write the document formats that I need and encounter on a daily basis. I dont know why you think that stagnation is a good thing for this OS, but whatever floats your boat I suppose. Also, Symphony IS good, but its based upon SWTSwing which we do not yet have a good enough version to make Symphony run. OO is our only real option, and its a poor one in the shape it is in now.

  I've been Lotus SmartSuite user for a long time now. All I can say is: it is worthless because you don't know how to use it.
  The only real complain I have about SmartSuite is the fact its solver has not support to "maximize" or "minimize", just goal seek  mode. But this is a limitation present on recent OO too: it only has "goal seek". And hey, I am an academic. I am working to get my Ph.D in Operations Research. But, in that case, I don't use Excel either. I simply run my copy of LINGO and everything is fine :D .

   Anyway, I was forced to use Microsoft-Office-Crappy-Edition-Vista-Without-Menus sometimes, due to braindead-heads that saved documents in that bizarre DOX format; but I would like to say that time is long forgotten... since I discovered http://www.zamzar.com/ .

   Besides, most papers I get are in PDF format. So, no real problem, since we have decent readers for OS/2 (IMHO, Lucide has some interface problems, but is far better than any Acrobat Reader for Windows, simply because it's FAST!).

   Oh, yes. Lotus SmartSuite is outdated. Yes. The last major version was about 5 years ago. Well, the last real improvement on Microsoft Word came about 10 or 15 years ago (Office95?). The following "major releases" only made it bigger and looks different (sometimes better, sometimes worse) and bring some crappy tools (MS PhotoEditor, MS Bob, MS Outlook Express and a miriad of stupid applications and utilities MS was able to create in the last 15 years, but was not able to sell, so it pushed them with their only real average to good package: MS Office).

   I don't define a program as "better" simply because it is *new*, but if it brings new useful features. And nothing MS added in the last 4 or 5 Office incarnations play that role for me. In fact, it's quite the contrary.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.28, 18:22:20
Thank you Sab, for linking me to things on OS2world I am already aware of! Im so glad that you have a working JRE and SWT and you are using Lotus Symphony right now! I said that OO is our only option really, and that is because we dont have other options that exist right now. Sure, Lotus Suite from god knows how long ago is a great tool for general document work, but in an environment where all my work is disseminated in DOC/DOCX, or PPT etc, it holds no value for me. Open Office can work with these formats, and for that, it holds value.

Now, for DOCX, its a great format. Its typically half the size of the same document in DOC, and about 1/3 the size of the same document in ODF.

Lucide is fast, its a great tool. However, it doesn't support everything Adobe Reader does, and I have run across some documents it can not render. For a fast reader for Windows, use Foxit. It beats Adobe PDF 10 to 1.

DJ, as for the new Office, I am not a fan of the ribbon, but its okay. I use OfficeXP for this reason. However, the newer offices have good support for things that I need to do and make it very easy to do so, for instance, Pivot tables, which I use a lot in my ecological work.

But again, whatever works for you. I think its great we have so many bounties sitting here. But some have not been worked on, for years. I would like to link you to a discussion here about improving the bounty system and dealing with its downfalls, but I think its irritating how you love to link to random stuff Sab, so I will restrain myself. You know where to find that discussion.

To surmise, we have a ton of great projects that are not making progress, and the intent to progress does NOT equal progress, and so, we are dealing with stagnation. It's quite simple really.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.03.28, 19:31:18
Hi Saijin_Naib, Re: "Thank you Sab, for linking me to things on OS2world I am already aware of! I'm so glad that you have a working JRE and SWT and you are using Lotus Symphony right now!" Hey, how else can one find it convenient to present what is apparently not being taken under consideration (hope this is not a deliberate attempt to sweep the dust "under" the carpet...) on the other hand is it fair for others to do your research for you?

Now, back to your assumptions with regards to "I'm so glad that you have a working JRE and SWT and you are using Lotus Symphony right now!"

This is what can be remembered and just in case it may be of interest to you.  ???

"Eclipse Enabler (eComStation and OS/2 only)

With the Eclipse Enabler package using SWTSwing and the Eclipse on Swing (EOS) plugin, the last Eclipse SDK 3.2.2 (Windows) can be used on eComStation (eCS) and OS/2.

The Eclipse Enabler package includes an installation script to create desktop icons, start scripts for easy usage and Eclipse on Swing (EOS) which includes SWTSwing. There are also some additional Java Look'n'Feel classes included.

http://www.juergen-ulbts.de/content/projects/ports/index.en.html#eclipseenabler

Also, "To surmise, we have a ton of great projects that are not making progress, and the intent to progress does NOT equal progress, and so, we are dealing with stagnation. It's quite simple really". There is a saying that "The Longest Journey Begins With The First Few Steps"; and, if the sponsoring of bounties for "a ton of great projects" are indicative of those "first few steps" (and putting it however "Saijin_Naib" would like) then that "long journey" (though sometimes difficult) has begun for some.  ;)

Enjoy!


Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: Saijin_Naib on 2008.03.28, 20:59:03
Not quite sure I get the meaning of your first paragraph Sab, but I'll leave that be for now.

I am aware of the Eclipse Enabler, its what you need to use Azereus. I've used it before, and as I've said before, it does not work for Lotus Symphony, does it? Can you go get Lotus Symphony working right now? No? Then, its not an option for use, is it?

There is another saying as well (adapted), "man can not live by wishes alone". Its good that we have these first few steps, and a vision, but visions will NOT serve to attract new blood NOR prolong the life of the OS. We have to have deliverables.
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: magog on 2008.04.09, 19:45:41
The main problem that Lotus Symphony or Notes are not working is the lack of a current Java Runtime (1.6).
There is the Java 1.5.0_07 hack but I wasn't very successfull when I tried to get Eclipse 3.3 (which needs Java 1.5) running with the Eclipse on Swing plugin.
I also wasn't able to use Azureus 3.x which also needs Java >=1.5.0.

Maybe I can get the above stuff working when I spend enough time on it, but there are far more interesting projects I would like to work on.

For Lotus Notes I have to say that Notes is too big and too ugly to be usefull. There are Groupware solutions available that seem to be far better to use.

I've done some Open-Xchange development within the last 3 years. The old OX Server 5 (currently v0.8.6-x) code is very ugly and it's no fun working on it as it's totally undocumented Java code, but I is possible to get it working on OS/2 is you spend some time on it. It's also VERY stable!

The upcoming new OX 6 (totally rewritten by 1&1 - a big german internet provider) looks goods but some functionality is missing at the moment. The new OX was first released as Hosting Edition one year ago but there is also the Express Edition available.
http://www.open-xchange.com/
Title: Re: Open Office for eCS-OS/2 2.4 Beta1
Post by: saborion2 on 2008.04.10, 01:14:33
Re:
QuoteThe main problem that Lotus Symphony or Notes are not working is the lack of a current Java Runtime (1.6).
There is the Java 1.5.0_07 hack but I wasn't very successfull when I tried to get Eclipse 3.3 (which needs Java 1.5) running with the Eclipse on Swing plugin.
I also wasn't able to use Azureus 3.x which also needs Java >=1.5.0.

Maybe I can get the above stuff working when I spend enough time on it, but there are far more interesting projects I would like to work on.

For Lotus Notes I have to say that Notes is too big and too ugly to be usefull. There are Groupware solutions available that seem to be far better to use.

It is quite interesting and good to know that you have been working on projects to have "Lotus Symphony or Notes" and Lotus SameTime running on OS/2 via the Eclipse on Swing plugin which requires Java Runtime (1.6). So, what happens in a scenario in which a particular enhancement is required to make one of these application really serve its usefulness in that particular case.  ;)