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Public Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: cyber on 2010.12.29, 09:14:11

Title: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: cyber on 2010.12.29, 09:14:11
From one other thread:

"Quote
I mainly looking if the new eCS offers/has Bluetooth support.

Unfortunately, no. Bluetooth is one of the things on the wish list, but nobody has taken enough interest in it to create the appropriate driver(s). Other things are far more important, and there are not enough qualified programers to go around. "

Please tell me what are those far more important things that eCS/OS/2 user needs ?  I personally think that bluetooth support is one of essentially needful things.  
Even more than bluetooth driver, IMHO there is urgent need to fix LVM feature of recognising partitions, so any flash stick/external drive (phones, cameras, players) can be used normaly without 'special preparing for LVM'. :)

And there is balance and strategic planing... I as not-programer believe that developing bluetooth driver, and/or fixing LVM is much more easyer and need less programer resource engagement than for example porting Java, fixing kernal, developing Flash 10, and so on... while on other side we can get more interest for new users.

Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Paul Smedley on 2010.12.29, 10:34:29
For me - Flash support is the priority.  Without Flash, many websites are unusable and Joe average won't consider an OS that can't even play youtube....
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Andi710 on 2010.12.29, 12:02:23
For me - Flash support is the priority.  Without Flash, many websites are unusable and Joe average won't consider an OS that can't even play youtube....

I agree with Paul. Support for all web standards (e.g. HTML5 in Firefox4) and quasi-standards (like flash) is top priority. The other is support for new kinds of hardware (focus on stable solutions for selected chipsets/models, just like EmperoarTV does it very nicely for support of TV), in particular:
- reliabe USB, incl. all kinds of flash in all sizes (like to be able to buy and use an 8GB SDHC card for instance),
- at least one brand of webcam.
And everything stable on SMP systems, as single core is a thing of the past.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: diver on 2010.12.29, 13:30:59
For me - Flash support is the priority.  Without Flash, many websites are unusable and Joe average won't consider an OS that can't even play youtube....
yes flash is one of the most annoying things we have. there will be more flash work at the beginning of next year. odin gets better and better due to java. so also flash has a benefit of it. and we know how to reproduce some flash crashes, so chance they get fixed is very high now. especially that java suffers right now from the same problems. like SMP crashes in odin. we will get there in the coming month.

regards
Silvan
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: cyber on 2010.12.29, 14:43:59
OK, i must agree that flash is very important, even my both childern use earlier release of flash almost every day -flash games are almost only fresh games in /2 world. :)

Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2010.12.29, 18:01:19
Please tell me what are those far more important things that eCS/OS/2 user needs ?

Video acceleration (for that matter, just video support for new devices)
Printer driver support (sorry, but CUPS isn't doing the job, even though it is a big step forward)
JAVA 6 (in the works, but not there yet)
AHCI disk support (in the works, but not there yet)
Multi voice sound support (probably part of the UniAud plan, but not there yet)
Proper power support (ACPI, in it's present form, is a total disaster)
Network Adapter support (in the works, but limited to two series of adapters, so far)
Large disk support (2 TB limit now, and 500 GB limit for boot drives)
Virtual machine options (the old VirtualBox just doesn't cut it)

I am sure there are many more, and everybody has their own priorities. I put Bluetooth right down there with Firewire support. There has been a Firewire driver for years, but nobody has bothered to finish it (no interest, and no time), and I have no idea if it would work in it's present form (probably not). Bluetooth - eventually, but Bluetooth support isn't going to do anybody much good, if the basic stuff doesn't work.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: cytan on 2010.12.29, 18:47:19
Increase 512MB shared memory limit. I know this is just a pipe dream because we don't have access to the kernel. But this should be fixed because Firefox, OpenOffice etc. are shared memory hogs and hoses OS/2 after a few days of use.

An updated Xserver for people like me who log into UNIX machines to do some work.

ACPI, flash, JAVA in some order.

Printing which works inside Firefox. I know it's coming.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Blonde Guy on 2010.12.29, 23:08:46
It's hard to imagine Bluetooth being a wish list item for eCS.

The Bluetooth stack is large and complex. Neither Windows, nor Mac, nor Linux have good implementations. If I had a million dollars to spend making eCS better, then Bluetooth would not make the cut.

What would I spend it on?

Flash support.
Audio support.
ACPI.
ACPI utilities.
ACPI compatibility of other drivers.
Shared memory fix.
Bug reporting/dump collection tool.
Enhanced pre-boot environment.
Java support.
Open Office using Java support.
Webcam support.
new ethernet and WiFi support.
USB fixes and 3.0 support.

Everybody has their list, and I could go on and on...
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: lewhoo on 2010.12.29, 23:11:19
Except flash, any voice/video conferencing software should be here. I think that without that an average Joe won't take a look on OS/2 either.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Paul Smedley on 2010.12.30, 00:45:34
Please tell me what are those far more important things that eCS/OS/2 user needs ?

Printer driver support (sorry, but CUPS isn't doing the job, even though it is a big step forward)

Sorry - but if really think we're going to get anything other than cups for printer driver support, then you're clearly delusional.

If you have found a defect with CUPS, report a bug via the CUPS newsgroups.

If your problem is that your specific printer model isn't supported, then get over it.  Unless you run Windows, there is no way a niche OS is going to have support for every model printer on the planet.

Paul.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: melf on 2010.12.30, 00:56:16
Adobe Connect is the new conferencing program among universities in Sweden and it's Flash based. However you also need some plugin, which I bet will need Windows or Mac to work...

I tried Adobe Connect with our flash preview and came half the way, wasn't able to install the plugin.


Flash and Java is on my wish list too, but also:

Some polishing on the GUI, it'll frighten new users away as it is now. I can't understand why first install still uses old folder icons.

Wlan support for new cards

WPA2 support that works at work

An easy to use and understand VPN client solution

AHCI  disk support

Further development of video support

A video editing program!

Further ports of GIMP and vbox

Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: craigm on 2010.12.30, 02:12:54
I agree with most everyone here. We need to keep focused on the main standards of the Internet right now. Luckily eCS is in a great position with Java, Flash, and even OpenGL being working on with a bright future.

With that, we need to understand where eCS is going...are we staying at the Desktop? If so, again, I agree with everyone here with Java, Flash, OpenGL, Audio Fixes, etc.

BUT...if people have the idea of something like a tablet, then bluetooth is a must. I know that is not an easy thing but the reality is that bluetooth is used a lot in the mobile world.

One additional note, no matter where we go, we do need to work on the "looks" of eCS. As much as I love it, it is getting dated in the looks dept. And it's like buying a new car, you might not know how it runs but you know how it looks and feels. If we want to attract new people, then we need to shine up eCS.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: CDRWSel on 2010.12.30, 02:23:51
I agree with previous post.

By priority:

Java, Flash, AHCI, USB3 and new SATA ...
And Video acceleration + 16:10 support for new universal video driver.

Cheers
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Paul Smedley on 2010.12.30, 02:33:24
I agree with previous post.

By priority:

Java, Flash, AHCI, USB3 and new SATA ...


Java beta is out today - http://svn.netlabs.org/java
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: cyber on 2010.12.30, 11:31:04
Ahhhh... there is so many different demands, and allmost anyone have different needs.  :)

BUT...if people have the idea of something like a tablet, then bluetooth is a must. I know that is not an easy thing but the reality is that bluetooth is used a lot in the mobile world.

It is not must just for tablet... If You have any of mobile devices, tablet, smartphone, phone_with_camera, camera with bluetooth, it is normaly that You offten have need to exchange files like documents, pictures, music,... between Your /2 device and mobile device. And even for transfer files from one computer to another is (desktop to laptop f.e.) very usable, no need for floppy, stick, external disk, CD, DVD, storage cards, network, internet, email... :)

And now Young people have in average atleast two mobile devices in hands. :)

To Blonde Guy:
Im satisfied how BT works under Linux. Ubuntu 9.04-10.10.

So, back to sit and wait... one day we will have perfect /2 / eCS with every feature, even with bluetooth included.  8)
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2010.12.30, 18:48:22
Quote
So, back to sit and wait...

Well, if you sit back, and wait, and everybody else sits back, and waits, guess what will happen. On the other hand, if everybody spends a little time trying to help out, we might just be able to pull it off, and get things working. If you can't program, do the testing, and tell the programers how to recreate problems. If you can't do the testing, find some other way to help. Of course, there is always the old "contribute money to a paid project" thing. JAVA is looking again, and there are a number of others looking for a little monetary support so they can continue to do more for the eCS/OS2 community. Every little bit helps to move the whole thing forward.

What I was trying to get across, earlier, is that somebody can spend two years trying to develop Bluetooth support, while ignoring the more basic things, and by the time they are done, there won't be a working platform to run it on (or, the platform will change enough that their project won't work with it). Once the platform is more stable, developing things like Bluetooth support will probably take less time, but the basics need to be there to support the extras.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: ivan on 2010.12.30, 22:26:12
One thing I would like to add re testing.  The developers should open the testing out to as many people as possible NOT a select few that have access to a restricted site, otherwise we will continue to have the debacle that is ACPI development.

ivan
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Sigurd on 2010.12.30, 23:08:43
What I learned this last year - if you want to have progress - try to take it in your own hands as much as possible. Using this way I was able to (not fishing for compliments):

- get "my" formerly NOT SUPPORTED  X200T Notebook quite well supported with:
  1. finding a way to install eCs 2 next to Preinstalled Windows 7 at all
  2. finding a way to use SNAP instead of Panorama with it (with the patched gradd.sys from bug tracker)
  3. finding a way to solve the "overheat" problem
  4. finding a way to solve the WLAN problem
  5. finding a way to get the Stylus to run AND finding applications to make it real usable (like Jarnal)
  6. finding a way to connect to the internet anytime from everywhere with UMTS (with expanding USBCOM.SYS to work with USB 2.0)

and - still in progress -  ;)

  7. finding a way to get the internal Webcam supported

and - work done by Mensys

  8. get LAN support

I would not have achieved all this without the help of some real good programmers (Wim Brul, Rudi and more....) - they did the hard work - for me it was: testing, testing, thinking and searching for solutions, to combine and connect solutions to geht them in a practical way to run, publishing solutions in words (HOW TO) and pictures (Youtube)

And yes - even if it sounds heretical:

"My" Plan B that I suggested in June 2009 went on a successfull road, it is nearly completed (the Webcam) and it did proof to me, that Mensys should have concentrated on selected Hardware, not trying to cover each and any hardware with a weak and instable ACPI. As a "Hobby eCS User" it was possible to achieve all this (Once again: without the help of these really friendly developers I had I would not have Stylus nor UMTS support) in about a year time, while eCS 2.0 moved from ACPI 3.14 (December 2008) to 3.18, without any real step forward (the same with the "short time after english GA to be released German Version of eCS" announced) - even the manual suggests to go back to 12/2008 3.14 in case of problems. The same with the Flash 10, "second Preview" ......

But it does not matter any more, this big chance has been wasted, as several before.

I really appriciate the work that is done here by a lot of others, in example Silvan Scherrer, the GL/2 project  (both using the same method: If you want to have something done or changed - try to start it yourself, regardless how hard it seems to be there are people outside there willing to help you!) , just to name a few. And I am looking forward to use JAVA6, Virtualbox 3, and more! Will try do use eCS2 as long as possible on modern hardware, I guess my X200T will at least be used for another 3 to 5 years.

But if this ACPI problem will not be solved the future for eCS is NO FUTURE, or a future in a virtual environment. Sorry for this but the progress in the last two years in this area seems to me to go close to zero.

I wish you all a happy new year 2011, and most important health!!

Operating systems aren't that important at least  ;)
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Andi710 on 2010.12.31, 16:38:33
What I learned this last year - if you want to have progress - try to take it in your own hands as much as possible. Using this way I was able to (not fishing for compliments):

and - still in progress -  ;)

  7. finding a way to get the internal Webcam supported


not fishing for compliments, eh?  ;D Anyway, really nice job. I enjoy being able to use the pen at my thinkpad X41. I wish I had more time for testing, or even porting myself.  :'(

Please let us know when the webcam is going online and what SW you decide using (maybe flash is ready and usable by then).

Happy New Year and keep up the great work!!!
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2010.12.31, 20:23:57
One thing I would like to add re testing.  The developers should open the testing out to as many people as possible NOT a select few that have access to a restricted site, otherwise we will continue to have the debacle that is ACPI development.

ivan

I think that ACPI is a "special case". Testing is available to those who have a Software Subscription. That makes sense, since ACPI is really not available to those who don't have eCS, and if it was opened to everybody, it would be effectively giving ACPI away, when it is really one of the main things that eCS has to offer. That is the commercial part of the equation, and I think it struck a reasonable balance. On the software side of the equation, it was apparent, very early in the project, that the approach taken was all wrong. It was apparent, that every manufacturer, did it different, with every machine they designed (and then it would change with BIOS levels). That meant that the software needed to make exceptions, or additions, for every one of them. A losing proposition from the word "go". They were told that it wasn't going to work, but totally ignored the fact that Windows, and Linux, were not doing it that way, simply because it was never going to work that way. On the other hand, those who were doing the testing tended to lose interest, because nothing was really happening, unless the developers happened to have a machine that was very close to the same as what the tester has, and the developers can't have one of every machine. This is probably the main reason why people seem to think that there should be a small list of "acceptable" machines. IMO, that would kill OS/2 faster than anything else. Very few would spend the money to have a special machine, just to run eCS. Those who wish to try it, want it to run on the hardware that they already have, or what is available locally, and there is a constant turnover of hardware, so that it would be impossible to keep such a list current enough to be useful. At the moment, I think there are three major things that need to be done:
1) WiFi needs to work with new hardware.
2) AHCI needs to work.
3) Large disks need to be supported (by that I mean the eCS should install to disks up to 2 TB).

Also important, but not necessarily critical, is ACPI support.

Sigurd: A big THANK YOU. I used your documentation, to get my new Lenovo ThinkPad T510 to go, but I had to disable Win7 all together, because it insisted on having a disk layout that eCS refused to use, and Win7 doesn't seem to like the disk layout that eCS likes (windows 7 problem, IMO, but LVM, and/or the eCS installer, needs to be fixed too).  I haven't, yet, found a way to get Win7 to co-exist with eCS (I haven't tried too hard), but most of the T510 actually works well with eCS (no surprise that ACPI has major problems). I need more time to play with this, so I will be able to report the correct questions and information, in order to resurrect Win7 (not a high priority), and to get ACPI to work properly (it is an Intel machine, which is supposedly supported, but I have yet to see one that comes close to working right). I will admit, that I am tempted to just not use ACPI (SMP works fine with the old OS2APIC.PSD), since taking the time to report the problems is unlikely to result in anything useful, and it works fine without it (but won't power off at shutdown, without pushing the power button). WiFi (Realtek) is another thing that needs to be looked at, but the wired NIC works good with the new Intel driver, and sound works good with the UniAud that comes with eCS 2.0, and the mmfix thing.

Overall, progress is being made, with eCS, but it is hard work, and very time consuming for all involved (not to mention, way to slow). More people doing it would help, but that also means that the developers need to instruct people on how to properly collect data, and report problems, and they need to make documentation that is usable by the average user. The ACPI documentation is almost incomprehensible, and some other programs don't have documentation, at all (few can get away without some sort of documentation).

As for the comment:
Quote
What I learned this last year - if you want to have progress - try to take it in your own hands as much as possible.
I don't think that is quite right. To do it yourself, is very limiting. To work as a team, is far better, but some coordination is required to do that. You list your accomplishments (great work), but how long did it take you to o all of that? If 6 people had coordinated their efforts, and each had taken on one of the projects, it all might have happened faster. I think that what we need, is a way to coordinate the time spent doing such things. It is probably not helpful, if 6 people are working independently on getting a web cam to work (unless each has a different web cam, but they should still be working together). Anybody got some ideas about what to do about that?

To one, and all, a Happy New Year...
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Sigurd on 2011.01.01, 02:51:18
To Andy:

thanks for your comment :-) Yes, I know, it sounds like "fishing for compliments" but it was just to stress the fact what has been made in spare time as a hobby.......  :-\ That is what makes me think that in the last six years so many opportunities have been wasted and what may have could been...... But even though - please read below  ;)

To Doug:

thanks for your comment as well. To get Windows 7 little "friendlier" I found it very usefull to use the DFSEE Boot CD instead of eCS 2 to manage the volumes.
Regarding the achivements and the way those have become reality: this was the ONLY way for me to change something. There was no one around who has been interested in helping in "general" support, I was just lucky to get in touch with the developers with the special problems I had. And as for the stylus - more testers came aorund and more Laptop Models are supported now (X61T, X41T). I guess it is the same with the UMTS / USBCOM.SYS - I would bet that a lot of internal UMTS Modems are able to work with this driver - it should be some kind of "unversal support" - BUT - there is no one around to test it nor use it. That answers the question: Are things like this demanded? And by the way - I heard from someone that his Mobile phone is recognized as a Drive with the new USBCOM.SYS now - that may give the opportunity to close another door - syncronize with mobile devices......

And with the webcam support - the same road is taken as succesully before: I know only one developer with whom I do have contact in this case. I guess that there are others who might work on this topic as well, but I never read or heard of them. Unfortunately. And in the end it might be the same result as before: we will have a free availiable driver for everyone, eComstation OR OS/2 user. But it is to early to forecast something. This way it worked before: start with ONE problem, ONE developer, ONE tester. I wish it would be different - more tester or developers, but there seem to be none....

And concentrate on selected hardware: in my opinion this has been the ONLY way for eCS to survive. Or better: had been. Apple proofed this for years.

But - all this achievements are in the end worthless if there is no way to get EFI, ACPI, AHCI to run. Sometimes I think the OS/4 project has more chances to may overcome these problems, and I guess as well that the latest eCS2 kernel has been a patched one like the OS/4 kernel as well to open the door for ACPI. And I guess as well: to get ACPI to run there are more Kernel Hacks needed - but not possible for Mensys due to licening and technical problems. And therefore the whole ACPI is still broken with no real step forward the last 2 1/2 years. And this is in my opinion the BIGGEST PROBLEM of all with Mensys and eCS 2: the missmanagement regarding "information for users", a real disaster. What shells at least ? ;-)

I personally will give another bootable OS/2 Warp 4 DVD a try, created by Update CD, with the latest OS/4 kernel and loader, if possible and will see where this leads me to on modern hardware.

Thanks again and a good 2011 to all of you!
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: aschn on 2011.01.01, 14:59:39
Some polishing on the GUI, it'll frighten new users away as it is now. I can't understand why first install still uses old folder icons.

The resources of the desktop objects are patched at the end of phase 1, so you have to cancel the installation to see the IBM icons. The old icons are used firstly, because the IBM installer is still being used.

Additionally, patching the IBM files may lead to license violation - I'm not sure. IMO it was not a good decision to just write a GUI for the old installer. The current eCS installation is so complicated, that there exist just a few people who understand the main parts of it.

My wish list:

1. shared memory
2. ACPI
3. AHCI

Andreas
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ? Info from Mensys
Post by: rwklein on 2011.01.01, 19:29:44
I have skimmed the messages here are some answers.

Bluetooth is something you have to hold you breath for on eCS.

Audio support on eCS is a no brainer with the current UNIAUD driver.
You can get it here: svn.netlabs.org/uniaud
If something does not work open a bug. But a lot of problems have been fixed in UNIAUD!
We are in better shape then ever before. We are current with the current Linux ALSA code.

Mensys has received the first 2 binaries for AHCI drivers and we are testing this as we speak.
When finished the code will be released.  SO AHCI is under development and on the move.

Somebody mentioned that eCS has boot limit of 512 GB of eCS on 2 TB discs. That is not true.
But you need to partition the drive completely with eCS and otherwhise follow the instructions.
Current work is to make installing and booting eCS next to Windows 7 and on large hard disc
is by dumping the boot manager and replacing it with Airboot. I won't go into the details but the bootmanager
we have used for many years is technically dead. With airboot into eCS included we can
boot Windows normaly Vista and 7 OEM preloads normaly. We save 1 primary partition also!
Airboot will receive some updates. And yes we are allowed by Martin Kiewitz to include into eCS
(For the people that have pointed out the license of use limiations for Airboot)

In the end we also need to update OS2DASD, DANIS506.ADD and the miniFSD for bootable JFS to support big hard discs properly. As it now stands
hard discs going beyond the 2 TB disc boundary will use GPT disc layout but start to jack up the
sector size from 512 bytes to 4 KB. And the old MBR disc layout will stay as well.
I base this on the current state I read in the computer magazine C'T from Germany.

The first DLL will be made for Panorama in the coming months to support accelrated Intel Graphicss chipsets.
About wide screen support. That is currently what it is. But one developer we are looking to create
a generic wide screen eneabler driver.

About people wanting to point out that SNAP is an option. From the point of view of Mensys
SNAP is dead. We have not realy to come to an agrement with the company that has taken over
SNAP on how to get source code access. Besides that the SNAP source code is not that interesting.
Currently 2 people are busy updating screen01 as that contains a lot of legacy, like scanning I/O ports
it should not do. Thats what is causing hangs on some systems. Lars Erdmann is working on this.
When it comes to DIVE performance with sysbench Panorama get a score of 3.6 million dive marks,
SNAP gets 3 million marks with accelrated support. So go figure, Panorama runs faster then SNAP.

Work is being done by a group of people to fix the USB stack. I have mentioned this before but this is something
that has to be done in a proper fashion. Patching the current IBM binaries we have is not sufficient.
*first* priority is to get the USB host controller drivers stable with ACPI APM and APIC (high IRQ mode).
Also updating the USB HID and USB keyboard mouse driver and fix USBD.SYS.
Other strategies are useless. The base needs to be stable. Then we can work on USBMSD and possibly USB 3 host
controller support.

About GUI enhancements the file open dialog now in beta zone we hope you can test this.
That we all old applications can have a decent file open dialog!
Eschemes will receive more in the coming months as well.

About IP 4 versus IP 6. This is one of the most overhyped items. IP 6 should, based on what I have read and heart
not going to be a problem. In about 9 months from now All IP 4 adresses at RIPE will run out.
Some ISP's are already handing out IP 6 ADSL lines. But most of these modems translate IP 6 to IP 4 on the internal
LAN side of the network. Besides that IP 4 devices will be around for years to come! So in that retrospect
OS/2 will not be in the dark. ISP will have to provide gateways for most common IP 4/6 traffic.
People who tell you IP 6 will the dead for OS/2/eCS are making statements without technicall knowlegde.
We are looking at IP 6 support for eCS but thats going to be a big job.

Talking about connectivity. Take a look at http://svn.ecomstation.nl/multimac
New NIC drivers coming.  Already released current support for Nvidia and Intel gigabit.
This skeleton has a portion of OS/2 specific code and the rest is the Linux code ported to OS/2.
It has support Xwlan. Soon Mensys will release a binary for Realtek gigabit.
A new Intel Wireless driver to support current chipsets is also in the pipeline.

Mensys also provided funding to have Firefox/Mozilla sweet updated. The latest fixes done by Richard Walsh
for printing and fixing certain memory leaks where done by him. Flash is still under development
and Mensys also co-funded the Java development. Java 6 was released recently.

As for Sigurd amd other people there remark we should support specific computer models. Its nice to suggest
but not very practical. Here is the reason why. Look at UNIAUD, USB drivers and NIC drivers for example.
They are all generic. Also the upcoming AHCI driver most hardware drivers are so generic that it makes
no sense to just say "support this model". Infact I can tell you this is not even practical for some
of large company customers since certain computer models have such short live cycles.
I know it sounds weird but I have been there having to deal with it.

To wrap up I have not much time to read the forums but I hope this does provide some inside in the way
we working. I keep seeing people making assumptions about the future of eCS. But when you make statements
put a solid technical analyses under it. That is sometimes missing. If you have questions contact me...

ACPI is still being worked on hopefully getting back to that later this month.

About the shared memory issue. This is something that can not be fixed in the current kernel. What is fix is to let applications use high memory to store data. Storing DLL's in high memory is in the back of our mind.
And is possible possibly later this year you will see more about this.
But a lot of freezes and hangs of systems by using firefox have been caused by faulty code. This should be fixed in Firefox 4 being released.

Have a good new year for 2011!

Roderick Klein
Mensys

P.S. Not yet annouched officialy (and the website still needs to be worked on!) but Warpstock 2011
will happen in Haarlem, home town of eCS and Mensys. It will be in Haarlem on the 6 to 8 of May.
Again the website still needs updating!!!! Thats currently being worked on.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: ivan on 2011.01.01, 19:44:44
Roderick, thank you for the update.

It sounds very much that there is life in the OS still despite what critics have and still say.

ivan
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.01, 20:56:44
Quote
Somebody mentioned that eCS has boot limit of 512 GB of eCS on 2 TB discs. That is not true.
But you need to partition the drive completely with eCS and otherwhise follow the instructions.
Current work is to make installing and booting eCS next to Windows 7 and on large hard disc
is by dumping the boot manager and replacing it with Airboot. I won't go into the details but the bootmanager
we have used for many years is technically dead. With airboot into eCS included we can
boot Windows normaly Vista and 7 OEM preloads normaly. We save 1 primary partition also!
Airboot will receive some updates. And yes we are allowed by Martin Kiewitz to include into eCS
(For the people that have pointed out the license of use limiations for Airboot)

The problems, at the moment, are:
1) Without Boot Manager installed, you cannot install to a logical drive.
2) Even if you do use DFSEE to build the partitions, add Boot Manager, then format them (JFS in my case), the eCS installer will still not allow you to select the drives for install (BM is probably the problem).
3) On a laptop (and possibly some desktops too), the dumb recovery code insists on rebuilding the whole disk to contain whatever windows version they want to use. The disk layout (geometry) is something that eCS refuses to acknowledge (cutoff seems to be somewhere near the 512 GB mark), and Boot Manager doesn't work (installed without complaint by DFSEE). Therefore, you cannot install eCS. Trying to restore windows to the layout that eCS will use, leaves windows unable to boot (I have not pursued this, yet).

Quote
That is currently what it is. But one developer we are looking to create a generic wide screen eneabler driver.

FWIW, the current widescreen driver (at least the Intel version) does work with SNAP, Panorama, and GRADD.

Quote
Panorama runs faster then SNAP.

I specific cases, that may be true. The biggest complaint that I have about Panorama, is that it will not allow Doodle's Screen Saver to power off my screen. It does power off when I use SNAP. This is really a minor problem, because I can always switch the screen off manually, but power control should be enabled by Panorama. (SNAP doesn't turn off the screen on my ThinkPad systems either).

Re: SCREEN01.SYS hangs. My new Lenovo ThinkPad T510 hangs at SCREEN01.SYS, for almost 4 minutes, when i try to use APCI (needs /EIS). Eventually, it does continue, and it seems to work, but the SETGETTHRTL.EXE program has some problems with it, and SETGETSTATE is not supported. I am wondering if it might not be a good idea to separate the SMP support, and power support, into two packages. The SMP support seems to work pretty good, but it is very difficult for a user to determine if a problem is caused by the power support code, or the SMP support code.

Re: USB support. It seems that new systems may no longer have the need for OHCI, or UHCI drivers. My new Lenovo ThinkPad T510 does not have OHCI, or UHCI, adapters. It only has two EHCI adapters. USB 1.1 devices work with no trouble. I am not sure how that happens. USB 3.0 is, of course, another thing that needs support. It would probably be good, if somebody picked up the old FireWire driver, and got it to work too.

Re: NIC support. I am really looking forward to the Realtek WLAN support. The T510 has one of those. It also has a modern Intel wired NIC, that works great with the new driver - THANKS!

Quote
ACPI is still being worked on hopefully getting back to that later this month.

Hopefully, by then, I will have enough information about ACPI on the T510 (4313-CTO), to be able to post something useful, but even my T43 (1871-W8M) is only marginally supported (power off works, but suspend/resume is still a dream), and that is not exactly a new machine. Notebooks are still poorly supported, and they are the machines that need it the most.

ECS is progressing, but it seems that there is always something new that is causing us to fall further behind. Linux has been a great help, so far, but I am not so sure that we can depend on them for everything. Those who wish to keep on using eCS, need to step up, and help out, so those who can do the work don't need to do as many other things.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: melf on 2011.01.01, 21:53:40
Some polishing on the GUI, it'll frighten new users away as it is now. I can't understand why first install still uses old folder icons.


The resources of the desktop objects are patched at the end of phase 1, so you have to cancel the installation to see the IBM icons. The old icons are used firstly, because the IBM installer is still being used.

Additionally, patching the IBM files may lead to license violation - I'm not sure. IMO it was not a good decision to just write a GUI for the old installer >--snip--<

Hi Andreas,
I'm not shure we talking about the same thing. With "first install" I mean the desktop coming up when install is finished. This icon set is called "ecomstation classic". David Graser have made several (in my view) more attractive, among them the flat basic yellow delivered with eCS. But the information from Roderick about continuing work on eschemes is good to hear about. Eschemes would make the overall appearence of ecomstation much better, when errors and misbehaviours have been ironed out.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: craigm on 2011.01.01, 23:28:50
Thanks Roderick, just a little bit of explanation from Mensys and Serenity Systems goes along way to the naysayers.

I believe 2010 was a great year for eCS and I'm excited at the prospect of 2011 being even better!

Again, thanks for the work you and the rest of the team does. This could not be done with out you!
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ? Info from Mensys
Post by: Sigurd on 2011.01.02, 17:49:41
Even if it may be not allowed or not welcomed: here some marks from an "not skilled enough":


<Audio support on eCS is a no brainer with the current UNIAUD driver.
<You can get it here: svn.netlabs.org/uniaud
<If something does not work open a bug. But a lot of problems have been fixed in UNIAUD!
<We are in better shape then ever before. We are current with the current Linux ALSA code.

- Uniaud HDA still not working with:
   - Virtual PC
   - Virualbox
   - Voicetype
   - Problems on modern hardware with HDA in APIC mode (wrong IRQ)
Yes - these are "minor" problems and I am happy to hear sound at all.


<About people wanting to point out that SNAP is an option. From the point of view of Mensys
<SNAP is dead. We have not realy to come to an agrement with the company that has taken over
<SNAP on how to get source code access. Besides that the SNAP source code is not that interesting.
<Currently 2 people are busy updating screen01 as that contains a lot of legacy, like scanning I/O ports
<it should not do. Thats what is causing hangs on some systems. Lars Erdmann is working on this.
<When it comes to DIVE performance with sysbench Panorama get a score of 3.6 million dive marks,
<SNAP gets 3 million marks with accelrated support. So go figure, Panorama runs faster then SNAP.

- Proofed to be wrong here. On systems I do have (Modern hardware - usually not supported by Snap) the VESA 3.0 mode of SNAP is at least as fast as the Panorama with the following advanteges over Panorama:
  - not eating that much CPU = causing heat and eating battery
  - no wrong colour scemes with SDL applications
  - Screensaver works and can switch off
but - please do remember: this is not a full technical proofed statement!

<Talking about connectivity. Take a look at http://svn.ecomstation.nl/multimac
<New NIC drivers coming.  Already released current support for Nvidia and Intel gigabit.
<This skeleton has a portion of OS/2 specific code and the rest is the Linux code ported to OS/2.
<it has support Xwlan. Soon Mensys will release a binary for Realtek gigabit.
<A new Intel Wireless driver to support current chipsets is also in the pipeline.

- This is really one well done job - a new LAN Nic. I do hope that the WLAN part will see the light of the day someday....

<Mensys also provided funding to have Firefox/Mozilla sweet updated. The latest fixes done by Richard Walsh
<for printing and fixing certain memory leaks where done by him. Flash is still under development
<and Mensys also co-funded the Java development. Java 6 was released recently.

- Good as well!

<As for Sigurd amd other people there remark we should support specific computer models. Its nice to suggest
<but not very practical. Here is the reason why. Look at UNIAUD, USB drivers and NIC drivers for example.
<They are all generic. Also the upcoming AHCI driver most hardware drivers are so generic that it makes
<no sense to just say "support this model". Infact I can tell you this is not even practical for some
<of large company customers since certain computer models have such short live cycles.
<I know it sounds weird but I have been there having to deal with it.

- As I wrote before: all these welcomed things are really useless without a working ACPI interface. As far as I understand it each and any PC Model does have a different ACPI table. So I guess it would have make sence to concentrate on some ACPI tables to get them properly to work so one could benefit from all the other advantages. But since 2 1/2 years this main project does make no step forward.

<To wrap up I have not much time to read the forums but I hope this does provide some inside in the way
<we working. I keep seeing people making assumptions about the future of eCS. But when you make statements
<put a solid technical analyses under it. That is sometimes missing. If you have questions contact me...

- Well, for me I can say that allmost everything I am writing about considered to eCS / OS/2 does belong on the technical/practical know how and the success and faults of the projects I did follow in my spare time. So, I was never trained in programming, espacially not in OS/2. So I was happy to provide some information about Windows 7 and eCS 2 while you wrote the manual for ecs2. But I hope even though it is allowed to make suggestions because this is a forum and not a "Yes, hayoo - we are all so happy!! Lets be quit and not critic, we might ask the wrong questions!" here.
By the way it would have been much easier to know what happend to eCS 2 in the last 6 years if there would have been some regular kind of information about the current states, as all the projects i.e. lead by Silvan Scherrer does. Well organized, progress frequently updated, information handed out......

<ACPI is still being worked on hopefully getting back to that later this month.

- this proofs what I wrote before - latest half usable 3.14 dated 12-2008 - the MAIN goal is scheduled to sometime....


And yes, we have had this kind of dicussion for years now i.e. at os2.org. And if you believe it is better to have only YES saying users, than just tell it, I will stop any kind of asking here as well. And sorry for not "quoting" the way one should have to.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ? Info from Mensys
Post by: rudi on 2011.01.02, 18:01:11

When it comes to DIVE performance with sysbench Panorama get a score of 3.6 million dive marks,
SNAP gets 3 million marks with accelrated support. So go figure, Panorama runs faster then SNAP.



1.) Panorama is cheating by not performing proper shadow buffer sync for DIVE. If that would
     have been implemented in the way it is supposed to be, performance would be slower.

2.) In genereal, DIVE is a bad test case for video driver performance measurement. This is
     because the whole work is done in DIVE.DLL and not in the display driver. Besides setting
     MTRRs, SNAP does not provide any acceleration for DIVE. So unless a display driver
     implements the EnDIVE API (which - thanks to IBM - is functional insufficient and as
     buggy as hell) there is no performance gain to be expected.

Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: demetrioussharpe on 2011.01.04, 01:29:44
Hello, I'm Dee from GL/2. For all of the gamers who may have a bit of technical knowledge, I'd like to post a query. Which is more important to you personally, high precision rendering or sacrificing precision for render speed? To reply, please post your answer at:

http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1940.0.html (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1940.0.html)
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: ALT on 2011.01.04, 11:20:24
Please tell me what are those far more important things that eCS/OS/2 user needs ?

Printer driver support (sorry, but CUPS isn't doing the job, even though it is a big step forward)

Out of curiousity, what is it about CUPS that you feel isn't up to the job?

I know it still needs OS/2 proper front-end tools to make it more user friendly.  But I think the underlying technology is quite capable of "doing the job", so to speak...
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.05, 22:34:43
Quote
Out of curiousity, what is it about CUPS that you feel isn't up to the job?

It seems that some new support program (for CUPS) is now required for some printers (something like HPLIP). It also seems that Paul has declined to port it (don't remember why). It also seems that some of the available PPD files just don't work properly. For instance, I have a Canon i960 printer. There is a PPD file for it, that prints the full page in the top, left quarter of the page. So far, I have not found a way to get that to do anything else. Trying some other possible PPD files results in various other problems, that don't seem to be fixable. I have not had much time to work with this, so there could be something that I have missed. Fortunately, the i960 works fine using the old i950 support in the OMNI driver. My brother also has a newer Canon MP325 (I think). It will also work with CUPS, but not properly. The vertical prints at twice the height that it should. Again, I did not have much time to work with that, so the printer is only usable in windows, at this time. I should get another shot at making that work, sometime over the spring/summer time period.

FWIW, CUPS is a huge step forward, but it is certainly not the real answer to printer support. Unfortunately, it seems that it will be the only printer support for new printers, so eCS users will have to carefully select their printers (which has been the case forever anyway). I suspect that CUPS will, slowly, run out of steam, in much the same way that GENMAC has declined to the point of not being usable with new hardware any more. The only thing going for CUPS, is that it is still under development in the Linux world. However, the latest version that was ported (from cups-1.4.4-os2-20100812.zip), seems to have a few problems (like it asks for a user ID, and password, but nobody has suggested what it is actually looking for, so logging into it is not possible). I am sure that these problems can be fixed, if somebody, who knows what they are doing, takes the time to figure them out. Meanwhile, there are at least two printers, that I know of, that just plain don't work properly with CUPS, and I, personally, have never seen one that does work with CUPS, even though both printers seem to be supported by CUPS in the UNIX world.

The bottom line is, that better printer support is something that should be addressed, but there are other things that are more important.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 00:32:38
...well, from my side I earned some negative criticism to say what must be the real priority for the eCS-OS2 community.

The real priority in the long term should be complete vendor independence. The only way to to this (on this days) is turning the OS complete to open source side.

The problem: Currently like XX% of the eComStation code (ok some may say 99%) belongs to IBM.
IBM has told us that they:
1) don't support OS/2 anymore.
2) don't improve the OS/2 code anymore.
3) won't turn it open source.

Patching OS/2 to run on modern hardware is good, but it is only short-term strategy, new hardware keeps coming over the years and once day patching it will be impossible. When we get to that day (when patching gets very very hard) some guys thing the long term strategy should be make OS/2 run on a virtualized environment in new hardware. That don't feel like running a real OS to me, but you may think different.

The real priority for me should be:
- Help/Sponsor/fund open source projects over eCS-OS2
- Try to get as much of open source replacements for IBM's OS/2 close source components (IBMMAC, MMPM, MPTN, kernel, makeini.exe, iconedit.exe...etc)
- One day build complete open source eCS-OS2 clone distro.

This is should be the long-term priority that will provide a future to the platform.

Pessimist will always say making an eCS-OS2 clone will be hard, will be expensive and will take too much time...but wait, there is famous open source Unix clone that now is one of the leading server OS platform.  It took time, resources were expended and it was hard, but it is a reality.

That's my point of view, my critics are free to think/say whatever they want.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: aschn on 2011.01.06, 01:24:20
The real priority in the long term should be complete vendor independence. The only way to to this (on this days) is turning the OS complete to open source side.

ACK.

The problem: Currently like XX% of the eComStation code (ok some may say 99%) belongs to IBM.
IBM has told us that they:
1) don't support OS/2 anymore.
2) don't improve the OS/2 code anymore.
3) won't turn it open source.

Not only IBM stuff is closed source, but also most of the projects sponsored by Mensys. Let's see, if they'll change their minds.

Andreas
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.06, 02:26:06
Quote
...well, from my side I earned some negative criticism to say what must be the real priority for the eCS-OS2 community.

I am not sure that I would call it "negative criticism". It is more like a reality check.

Quote
The real priority in the long term should be complete vendor independence. The only way to to this (on this days) is turning the OS complete to open source side.

That seems to be happening, on a very small scale. It takes a lot of work, but talented programmers, to figure out how to replace parts of the system, and then write the code to do so. There just aren't enough of those to go around, so it is a very slow process.

Quote
some guys thing the long term strategy should be make OS/2 run on a virtualized environment in new hardware

Some will argue with me, but that makes sense, only as a bridge to converting to some other OS. It makes more sense to be able to run Windows in a virtual environment, to do what OS/2 cannot do, but that means that OS/2 (eCS) needs to be able to run on the new hardware, and we need a good virtual machine environment to use.

Quote
The real priority for me should be:
- Help/Sponsor/fund open source projects over eCS-OS2
This is good, but there are limited resources, so some sort of priority needs to be made.
Quote
- Try to get as much of open source replacements for IBM's OS/2 close source components (IBMMAC, MMPM, MPTN, kernel, makeini.exe, iconedit.exe...etc)
Iconedit.exe can be replaced by any picture editor, and the actual icon files can be created by PMView.
Quote
- One day build complete open source eCS-OS2 clone distro.
That will probably never happen. There is just way too much work to be done, and not enough people capable of doing it. However, some parts might see the light of day. Again, it requires a set of priorities. Start with the necessary parts, and add the rest when/if it is possible.

Quote
It took time, resources were expended and it was hard, but it is a reality.

We are having a tough time trying to pry enough resources out of the users to keep eCS working, never mind making significant advances. What the users need to realize, is that everybody needs to contribute, in any way possible, to keep OS/2 alive as eCS. It will take strong support from the users, to keep it going. Whether that could ever translate into enough support to do much more than patch it together, remains to be seen.

Quote
That's my point of view, my critics are free to think/say whatever they want.

Critics are not the problem. The problem lies with those who sit back and demand progress, without contributing to the project.

Quote
Not only IBM stuff is closed source, but also most of the projects sponsored by Mensys. Let's see, if they'll change their minds

To be fair, Mensys has a business to run. They do need something to entice people to buy eComStation. They have also contributed a number of things to the OS/2 community. Without Mensys, OS/2 would have been dead, and buried, long ago. Those who seem to think they should have access to all that Mensys does, don't seem to understand how a business works. You pay for what you get, in one way or another, or the business goes out of business, and you get nothing. Look at what happened with SNAP,  BackAgain/2, FAXWorks (AKA PMFAX), and so on. Not enough business to keep the projects going. IMO Mensys has done a pretty good job, with minimal resources, and they do deserve some support for it, but they can't just give away the product.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: demetrioussharpe on 2011.01.06, 04:33:15
...well, from my side I earned some negative criticism to say what must be the real priority for the eCS-OS2 community.

The real priority in the long term should be complete vendor independence. The only way to to this (on this days) is turning the OS complete to open source side.

The problem: Currently like XX% of the eComStation code (ok some may say 99%) belongs to IBM.
IBM has told us that they:
1) don't support OS/2 anymore.
2) don't improve the OS/2 code anymore.
3) won't turn it open source.

Patching OS/2 to run on modern hardware is good, but it is only short-term strategy, new hardware keeps coming over the years and once day patching it will be impossible. When we get to that day (when patching gets very very hard) some guys thing the long term strategy should be make OS/2 run on a virtualized environment in new hardware. That don't feel like running a real OS to me, but you may think different.

The real priority for me should be:
- Help/Sponsor/fund open source projects over eCS-OS2
- Try to get as much of open source replacements for IBM's OS/2 close source components (IBMMAC, MMPM, MPTN, kernel, makeini.exe, iconedit.exe...etc)
- One day build complete open source eCS-OS2 clone distro.

This is should be the long-term priority that will provide a future to the platform.

Pessimist will always say making an eCS-OS2 clone will be hard, will be expensive and will take too much time...but wait, there is famous open source Unix clone that now is one of the leading server OS platform.  It took time, resources were expended and it was hard, but it is a reality.

That's my point of view, my critics are free to think/say whatever they want.

A man after my own heart!
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: demetrioussharpe on 2011.01.06, 04:36:03
Quote
...well, from my side I earned some negative criticism to say what must be the real priority for the eCS-OS2 community.

I am not sure that I would call it "negative criticism". It is more like a reality check.

Quote
The real priority in the long term should be complete vendor independence. The only way to to this (on this days) is turning the OS complete to open source side.

That seems to be happening, on a very small scale. It takes a lot of work, but talented programmers, to figure out how to replace parts of the system, and then write the code to do so. There just aren't enough of those to go around, so it is a very slow process.

Quote
some guys thing the long term strategy should be make OS/2 run on a virtualized environment in new hardware

Some will argue with me, but that makes sense, only as a bridge to converting to some other OS. It makes more sense to be able to run Windows in a virtual environment, to do what OS/2 cannot do, but that means that OS/2 (eCS) needs to be able to run on the new hardware, and we need a good virtual machine environment to use.

Quote
The real priority for me should be:
- Help/Sponsor/fund open source projects over eCS-OS2
This is good, but there are limited resources, so some sort of priority needs to be made.
Quote
- Try to get as much of open source replacements for IBM's OS/2 close source components (IBMMAC, MMPM, MPTN, kernel, makeini.exe, iconedit.exe...etc)
Iconedit.exe can be replaced by any picture editor, and the actual icon files can be created by PMView.
Quote
- One day build complete open source eCS-OS2 clone distro.
That will probably never happen. There is just way too much work to be done, and not enough people capable of doing it. However, some parts might see the light of day. Again, it requires a set of priorities. Start with the necessary parts, and add the rest when/if it is possible.

Quote
It took time, resources were expended and it was hard, but it is a reality.

We are having a tough time trying to pry enough resources out of the users to keep eCS working, never mind making significant advances. What the users need to realize, is that everybody needs to contribute, in any way possible, to keep OS/2 alive as eCS. It will take strong support from the users, to keep it going. Whether that could ever translate into enough support to do much more than patch it together, remains to be seen.

Quote
That's my point of view, my critics are free to think/say whatever they want.

Critics are not the problem. The problem lies with those who sit back and demand progress, without contributing to the project.

Quote
Not only IBM stuff is closed source, but also most of the projects sponsored by Mensys. Let's see, if they'll change their minds

To be fair, Mensys has a business to run. They do need something to entice people to buy eComStation. They have also contributed a number of things to the OS/2 community. Without Mensys, OS/2 would have been dead, and buried, long ago. Those who seem to think they should have access to all that Mensys does, don't seem to understand how a business works. You pay for what you get, in one way or another, or the business goes out of business, and you get nothing. Look at what happened with SNAP,  BackAgain/2, FAXWorks (AKA PMFAX), and so on. Not enough business to keep the projects going. IMO Mensys has done a pretty good job, with minimal resources, and they do deserve some support for it, but they can't just give away the product.


Also true.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 05:16:27
Quote
I am not sure that I would call it "negative criticism". It is more like a reality check.

Sorry for the hard words, but in that case the "reality check" is that there is no future for this platform. The long term strategy can not be "We will patch OS/2 until..." . There had to be at least little by little efforts to get out of the closed source code and have a future.  We had been dumped by IBM once and to do not repeat history open source is the way.

Quote
Iconedit.exe can be replaced by any picture editor, and the actual icon files can be created by PMView.
I was just putting example on try to focus on remove all the closed source components. Plus PMView is not open source.

Quote
To be fair, Mensys has a business to run...
I personally think that Mensys had done a good job. (too bad it is a waist of time to think what would happened if Stardock would got the OS/2 reseller representation) And I understand they don't have the resources the re-code an OS/2 clone. Plus in their current position they can not set an strategy telling IBM, "Our current strategy to ditch you out and stop paying you the royalties by making an open source replacement".

Quote
The problem lies with those who sit back and demand progress, without contributing to the project.
Which Project?  "We will patch OS/2 until..." ??

Quote
Without Mensys, OS/2 would have been dead, and buried, long ago. Those who seem to think they should have access to all that Mensys does, don't seem to understand how a business works. You pay for what you get, in one way or another, or the business goes out of business, and you get nothing. Look at what happened with SNAP,  BackAgain/2, FAXWorks (AKA PMFAX), and so on. Not enough business to keep the projects going. IMO Mensys has done a pretty good job, with minimal resources, and they do deserve some support for it, but they can't just give away the product.

There is something wrong here. We are not a business, we are a community. As consumers and part of this community we do not represent the important chunk of business. The business are banks and industrial customers that have OS/2 applications and it is cheaper to buy eComStation that run in modern hardware than migrate all the OS/2 apps to other platform.

For that business the strategy called "We will patch OS/2 until..." is right. But the business don't want an state of the art OS, they want something that work for their needs. Banks want to keep using eCS-OS2 until they migrate to a new core banking software (that don't run on OS/2 anymore), Industrial customers want to use eCS-OS2 in their scada until they took the decision to buy a new scada system (that don't run on OS/2 anymore) just to list some example. Sure there are exceptions, but if you go today to the CIO on banks or industries that use OS/2 they prefer to have Linux/Windows because the skills are easy to find to manage the servers. Plus nobody developing Business Applications want to develop them under OS2-eCS, so banks do not have in mind eCS-OS2 when getting a new core banking.. and the same for other industries.

Don't get me wrong, I want everybody to buy eComStation and I wish the best for Mensys. And I thank Mensys for sponsoring Firefox, QT, OpenOffice and Java ports. Mensys has a good strategy for Business, "run OS/2 in modern hardware to keep your OS/2 investment". And I agreed that it is right to say that "Mensys is the only big player investing on eCS-OS2 this days ". I just wish that someday Mensys sold 3M copies of eCS in one year so the OS will get more relevance, but here goes the "reality check" again.

Why does the eCS (new users) install base does not grow as good as we all dream:

1.- Source code is controlled by IBM, and IBM is not doing any new development. Will you buy a software on this condition?

2.- Developers like to go were the mass is to create applications. Windows had a lot of market share, MacOS is an interesting market. Even the iOS and Android market is interesting. How many software license will I make to make software for eCS-OS2 ?

3.- Linux may not have a lot of desktop market share but it is free (in cost) and it is open source (vendor independent) and that's what make it different. Why should I buy eCS against the Linux option?

I like eCS-OS2 because it is my choice and it is my personal preference. But If I play the "reality check" game ecs-OS2 does not have anything to attract new users compared to other OSes.

Thats why the more logical thing to do is to walk the open source path. Make little by little progress and focus to replace the close source components because that is the only way to have something to attract new users by saying "we have a future".

Many are afraid about OSS software and they keep thinking than the only way to make money is selling licenses. People think that OSS is communism and bad for business but that is not true. Just think that Redhad had pulled a very good business with service and all they code is open source. Business is not selling licenses anymore, not with this OS.

The "reality check" is: We open source or the platform die when we can no longer patch it anymore or when "business" don't found it relevant to patch it anymore.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Paul Smedley on 2011.01.06, 06:54:49
Quote
Out of curiousity, what is it about CUPS that you feel isn't up to the job?

It seems that some new support program (for CUPS) is now required for some printers (something like HPLIP). It also seems that Paul has declined to port it (don't remember why). It also seems that some of the available PPD files just don't work properly. For instance, I have a Canon i960 printer. There is a PPD file for it, that prints the full page in the top, left quarter of the page. So far, I have not found a way to get that to do anything else. Trying some other possible PPD files results in various other problems, that don't seem to be fixable. I have not had much time to work with this, so there could be something that I have missed. Fortunately, the i960 works fine using the old i950 support in the OMNI driver. My brother also has a newer Canon MP325 (I think). It will also work with CUPS, but not properly. The vertical prints at twice the height that it should. Again, I did not have much time to work with that, so the printer is only usable in windows, at this time. I should get another shot at making that work, sometime over the spring/summer time period.

FWIW, CUPS is a huge step forward, but it is certainly not the real answer to printer support. Unfortunately, it seems that it will be the only printer support for new printers, so eCS users will have to carefully select their printers (which has been the case forever anyway). I suspect that CUPS will, slowly, run out of steam, in much the same way that GENMAC has declined to the point of not being usable with new hardware any more. The only thing going for CUPS, is that it is still under development in the Linux world. However, the latest version that was ported (from cups-1.4.4-os2-20100812.zip), seems to have a few problems (like it asks for a user ID, and password, but nobody has suggested what it is actually looking for, so logging into it is not possible). I am sure that these problems can be fixed, if somebody, who knows what they are doing, takes the time to figure them out. Meanwhile, there are at least two printers, that I know of, that just plain don't work properly with CUPS, and I, personally, have never seen one that does work with CUPS, even though both printers seem to be supported by CUPS in the UNIX world.

The bottom line is, that better printer support is something that should be addressed, but there are other things that are more important.

Actually HPLIP has been available for over 7 months from http://svn.netlabs.org/ecups/wiki/CupsPort

A link to cups 1.4.5 has also been posted to the ecups mailing list.  Not sure why you think that cups is going to run out of steam when Apple bought the company that wrote it and it is the printing system used by every Apple computer that is sold, as well as just about every unix distribution.

Maybe you're referring to the OS/2 port of cups running out of steam - I can't see that happening anytime soon, although every time I read about Apple's being on sale I am tempted to go buy a 27" iMac :)

Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: DougB on 2011.01.06, 07:16:21
Quote
There had to be at least little by little efforts to get out of the closed source code and have a future.

It is happening, little by little. Unfortunately, too little, and too late, to be of much use. Those who are doing the projects are overworked, and don't get a lot of help. Fortunately, they are learning more as they go along, so it is not as difficult to do new projects.

Quote
Plus PMView is not open source.

No,it's not, but it is available, and has been updated not too long ago. There is nothing wrong with closed source programs, as long as they are supported. Unfortunately, not all authors, or companies, have the courtesy to open source their work, when they decide to quit working on them. That was, in fact one of the great failures of Mensys. They did not have an ironclad contract for SVista, and it went away when it was sold. There are some other examples of that too.

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Which Project?  "We will patch OS/2 until..." ??

No, the whole eComStation project (OS/2 has not been updated, at all, since IBM dumped it, except in the form of eComStation).

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There is something wrong here. We are not a business, we are a community.

WE are a community. Mensys is a business. If they are going to stay in business, they need customers. If Mensys goes away tomorrow, so does eComStation. The rest of us are not ready to stand alone. If everybody pulls together, it may be possible to do it, someday, but there are too many things that need to be done for it to happen over night.

Quote
But the business don't want an state of the art OS, they want something that work for their needs.

Actually, that isn't quite true. Most businesses want some sort of "support", for whatever it is that they use. eCS has limited support, mostly supplied by users. OS/2 (or eCS), is still used, because there is a hard core group of consultants, who know the system pretty well. The main "problem" that most businesses have with that is that there is a limited possibility of being able to sue them if something major goes wrong. Patching the current software still leaves the "mark of IBM" on the whole product. If somebody replaces all of those parts, business is going to be looking pretty hard, to make sure that it still works the same, and it isn't going to be easy to do the benchmark testing to prove that. An open sourced OS/2 will be taking a back seat behind the major Linux distributions, simply because they have a longer track record.

Quote
The "reality check" is: We open source or the platform die when we can no longer patch it anymore or when "business" don't found it relevant to patch it anymore.

If OS/2 is open sourced, without having the source from IBM to do it, a lot of large customers will back away, simply because their IT group will not be able to say that "most of it is from IBM". Unfortunately, that is the mentality of large business, and open source doesn't impress them much, or they would already be using Linux. I am not too sure what the answer really is, but a careful migration to something new will need to be followed. Just throwing out the current kernel (for example), and replacing it with something new (if it was anywhere near to being ready), is not going to impress those who don't really know anything about software, but do know that IBM has a good name, but they don't know who built this new kernel. They won't be spending money for that, until it is proven to be reliable, and fully supported by some outfit that is a lot bigger than Mensys. (There will always be exceptions).

Don't get me wrong. A lot of the old stuff is going to need to be rewritten (preferably as open source, but even if it is kept private by a company like Mensys, it is still a good thing), just to keep it working, but a mass change, overnight, is not going to happen. Even a slow migration is going to take some effort from every user, and the race is on to see if eCS can stay with the mainstream hardware, and software. I don't believe that there is much hope of getting ahead of the mainstream (meaning windows, of course), unless some OS/2 user wins the biggest of the big lotteries, and donates it all to the cause.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: Sigurd on 2011.01.06, 09:32:24
Quote:
To be fair, Mensys has a business to run. They do need something to entice people to buy eComStation. They have also contributed a number of things to the OS/2 community. Without Mensys, OS/2 would have been dead, and buried, long ago. Those who seem to think they should have access to all that Mensys does, don't seem to understand how a business works. You pay for what you get, in one way or another, or the business goes out of business, and you get nothing. Look at what happened with SNAP,  BackAgain/2, FAXWorks (AKA PMFAX), and so on. Not enough business to keep the projects going. IMO Mensys has done a pretty good job, with minimal resources, and they do deserve some support for it, but they can't just give away the product.


Hi,

I personally do think it is right to say the thruth / facts /opinion even if it sounds critic or negativ - it is far better to just let all leave as it is and say "better stay quiet - we might make someone angry..."

I personally do think this:

WITHOUT THE COMMUNITY eCS / OS/2 would be dead for a long long time, there would have not been things like:

- GENMAC
- Updates to USB from Rudi (i.e.: USBCOM.SYS for USB 2.0; USBEHCD.SYS for Emperoar tv)
- Network Drivers by Nickk
- Wide screen driver, patch to Gengradd.sys (for Panorama)
- Testing on modern hardware (like i.e. Ed Durrant)
- QT4 and everything else started and maintained/mananged by Silvan Scherrer
- Every port made by Paul Smedley
- Everything made by Daniela Engert (DANIS, booting from USB ......)
- Organization of Warpstock (even if Mensys does took part in some for helping organization)
- Public Information / Notice / Howtos - i.e.: Pages like this one here (thanks to Martin for your good job!), os2.org, commtalk.de - the information about progress with eCS would be close to zero
- and so on and so on..... (sorry for not naming everyone here!)

When it comes to look at Mensys from a business point of view I have to state:

- The product promised and the one delivered (German still not) are not the same
- The main project is NOT working reliable - ACPI and Powermanagement - so the "NEW" product after six years of developement does only run really reliable without ACPI on hardware that should be about at least 3 to 5 years old - for this it is also possible to use MCP 4.52 - if you have a license for it
- The Advertising/Information to the public is cloose to zero, usually informations are given if there is coming some steam from the community.... as I mentioned before: Public Relation = Disaster
- todays most advantage of eCS2 over MCP 4.52 is that all the updates are included and the installer is modified. So it is more like a Linux Distro. I will personally try to update MCP 4.52 with all the availiable fixpacs around and build a bootable DVD, some kind of "my own OS/2 Distro" just to see, if it will work, and if - what are the differences left compared with eCS2
- Mensys makes the most profit with former IBM - OS/2 customers I guess, I guess also that eCS2 as a "startup" project without the OS/2 community - OS/2 customers behind it would have been a "no go", would have last only a year.
- Once these former OS/2 Customers will have to move to a different Operating System (because i.e. eCS2 is not reliable on MODERN Hardware) this road will be closed
- the only possible way for OS/2 to survive is as a community project, with as much Open Source parts as possible - excactly as Martin wrote. But I do fear as Doug as well that there are enough skille dpeople around - may be they are - but to many of them already left it behind. Unfortunately.
- And to SNAP - for me I can use it on modern Hardware very often much better then Panorama, still, because of this kind of "universal inbuild Vesa 3.0" - but this is running out as well....

This is just my opinion - yes - it is critic. I did often wrote cirtics - but not to slash down the eCS - OS/2 project - it was mostly the only way to get a response form Mensys at least.

So - you can open the fire on me now!

Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 15:29:59
DougB. You are right with your comments but having an open source clone is the first step that will open to doors to have players that offer support services for it.

Currently new users don't want to buy eCS mainly because OS/2 is a dead project (taking abotu the base OS improvement) There is only one company that offers support and IBM is not behind it.

Having an OS/2 open source clone will not warranty instant success but it will bring more options to have players behind it for support.

As long term plan strategy/idea/suggestion I haven't hear anything better than moving to open source.
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 16:11:35
Sorry to keep on this, but the "It is too late" statement is something I don't share at all.

There are some examples about this too. When the cell phone market was dominated by Nokia, blackberry and someother brands, people may think "It is too late for a new different cell phone" and Apple released the iPhone and was a success. When the smartphone market was dominated by Blackberry and iPhone's people may think "It is too late for a new operating system for smartphones" and Google comes out with Android and it is now the faster growing OS in that market. If you ask Apple they will say that iPhone is a good business, if you ask Google Nokia and RIM they will say the same.
And I also know examples in lower scale and outside the software market that had pulled the same results.

People tend to think success has a finite and limited space and that you had to take down someone away from success to occupy that space. While the truth is that success is a multidimensional place that can be occupy by a lot more people than we can think.

IT IS NEVER TOO LATE FOR ANYTHING and I hope to maintain this in 30 years when I get my crappy $200 monthly retirement check from the local government ;)
Title: Re: What are Your real priorytes ?
Post by: RobertM on 2011.01.31, 21:22:06
Actually gang, there is a LOT more going on behind the scenes than people would suspect. All I can say at this point is:

(1) Development (including in areas that many suspect cannot be worked on by anyone but IBM) is proceeding, with a LOT in the works

(2) There are, to this day, quite a few large companies in the United States STILL using OS/2 and eComStation - this of course helps us the OS/2 Community because they're buying from Mensys, which helps fund further development.

Heck, here in the NY Metro area, there are 3 MILLION people who come into contact with and use OS/2 and eCS every day (and don't even know it).

As a matter of fact, employees or contractors for some of these companies visit these forums (some have even asked a BUNCH of questions). One of the people in this (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1540.0.html) thread, as s/he alludes to, works for one of the largest companies in this country. If you happen to be one of them, raise your hand!!! (No, don't worry, I know most of you cannot discuss who you work for, so feel free NOT to raise your hands... your secret is safe with me).

What I can say on that note is that I know of at least 3 Top 100 companies that use OS/2 and eComStation who happen to have visitors in these forums.

(3) An eCS 2.0 refresh is in the works

(4) Plans for major overhauls of numerous components, or creation of new components, are in the works. Some of them, you all have seen mentioned, such as Flash, AirBoot (which will end the problems getting Vista/Win7 to coexist with eCS), support for larger drives, easily maintainable NIC card support (with a LOT of cards supported), continued work on ACPI to both (a) support more hardware, and (b) provide better support for hardware, and (c) allow CPU throttling. Continued GUI enhancements are in the works, meaning some things that are very dated and should never have made it into OS/2 v2 (much less eCS v2) will finally get replaced.

There is a lot more, but right now I am not at liberty to discuss the other items. I do promise you all this though, for every other tidbit of information that I know or become aware of, as soon as I am permitted to discuss it, I promise you all that I will make a post here.

But right now, all I can say, is there is a LOT more development going on for eCS than anyone here could imagine (well, except for Roderick, Joachim and the rest of that gang of course).

As for the various posted wishlists/priorities... there are at least a few "impossible" things on those lists that can soon be crossed out (as well as a few not so impossible things).

Best,
Rob