OS2World OLD-STATIC-BACKUP Forum

OS/2 - Technical => Hardware => Topic started by: digimaus on 2011.06.03, 01:56:57

Title: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: digimaus on 2011.06.03, 01:56:57
Hi, everyone.

I'm running Warp 4.52 (pretty much stock) on an old AMD Duron 800-powered machine.  I recently installed my Sony DVD-RW drive in it for backup as I already have a DAT drive in that machine but wanted an additional solution.  I installed DVD Toys and all of the associated drivers and software.  That program works wonderfully, but I'd forgotten that OS/2 can't read DVDs directly.  What do I need to install to get the OS to see the DVDs?  Note that the drive works fine for CDs but won't see DVDs.

Thanks,
Sean
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: ivan on 2011.06.03, 15:24:33
Hi Sean,

I assume you are using the DaniATAPI.FLT and a reasonably up to date CDFS.IFS in which reading DVDs should not be a problem - writing them is an altogether different game.

Note when using the Dani FLT you should remove the IBM ones.

ivan
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Blonde Guy on 2011.06.03, 17:20:51
I've been on eComStation so long that I forgot there might be issues with MCP reading DVDs.

Maybe DaniATAPI is required, but I don't think so. More likely adding DVD Toys broke something that was already working. If you have access to the fixes for MCP, then there are several that are significant like IDEDASD.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Pete on 2011.06.03, 20:43:09
Hi digimaus

You need the latest IDEDASD update plus the UDF update - if it is not included in the IDEDASD package; The file system used for DVD is UDF.

Regards

Pete
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: DougB on 2011.06.04, 01:22:42
Quote
The file system used for DVD is UDF.

Well, UDF is ONE of the options, but it is a very poor option. You will wear out your disks very quickly if you use UDF formatted disks as if they were an additional, very slow, hard drive. Just reading them should be no problem.

CDFS is another option (same as for CDs), but you can't use them like you would an additional hard drive. Reading CDFS DVDs should be no problem, and should work if you can read CDs. Writing them requires additional software. I use DVDDAO, with no problems.

There are also some special formats used with video, and audio, that may appear to be blank, and may require special software to be able to read them.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Pete on 2011.06.04, 15:56:14
Hi Doug

I thought UDF.IFS was required in order to read commercial DVDs? - they are udf format.

Regards

Pete
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: DougB on 2011.06.04, 17:41:33
If the DVD is written in UDF format, you would need to use the UDF driver to read them. In the past, I have found that UDF for eCS, and UDF for windows, aren't always compatible. In fact various CD drive manufacturers (before there were DVDs), each supplied their own (windows) UDF driver, and they weren't always compatible either.

I have no idea what format "commercial" DVDs use. I would be very surprised if all (or even any) of them use UDF. In fact, I have a couple of old "commercial" DVDs (videos), and they are in CDFS format, not UDF format. Checking another one, that is only a couple of years old, I find that it too is CDFS format.

The OP's problem sounds like he doesn't have the proper driver installed, for the format of the DVD that he is trying to use. It has been many years since driver support was available for DVDs. If the drive can read CDs, it should also be able to read DVDs, as long as the proper driver is available to match the format used on the DVDs. If the DVD is in CDFS format, it should use the same driver that CDFS format CDs use.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Pete on 2011.06.04, 21:12:10
Hi Doug

If a DVD is formatted CDFS then it is not a DVD but a CDVideo.

Stick a commercial DVD (film or music) into a dvd drive and then open the Properties for the drive and check the file system on the Details page: UDF.

Hence you need UDF.IFS loaded in order to read the disc.


Regards

Pete



Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: DougB on 2011.06.04, 23:14:19
Quote
If a DVD is formatted CDFS then it is not a DVD but a CDVideo.

Uh, no... Every DVD video disk, that I have (6 of them), is readable with CDFS.  The one that I am looking  at now has 4.3 GB of data on it, and the Properties says that it is CDFS. I don't leave UDF enabled, at all, and I can read all of them without it.

Every DVD that I create myself is also CDFS (I use DVDDAO to write them). Of course, that doesn't mean that UDF can't be used, but as I said, I would be very surprised if that is actually used very much.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Pete on 2011.06.05, 00:20:47
Hi Doug

If a disc uses CDFS (no idea why a DVD would; none that I have do) then UDF is not required to read it.

I should probably have added a url or 2 to my previous post such as:-

http://askville.amazon.com/UDF-file-system/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=1207101

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format

Regards

Pete

Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: DougB on 2011.06.05, 01:58:06
I think the first link has some really BAD information on it. The second link describes UDF, but makes no claim to be a preferred file system for DVD (I have never seen a "commercial" DVD with UDF, but I won't say that they don't exist).

My personal experience with UDF is that it wastes a LOT of disk space when used with "R" media. When used with RW media, it can be used as if it is a very slow hard disk. The main problem with that is that the directory structure seems to be rewritten every time you change anything on the disk. Since the directory structure occupies only a small, fixed, area, it is rewritten many more times than the rest of the disk is written. Since optical RW media has a limited number of r/w cycles, that area of the disk gets worn out a lot faster than the rest of the disk. There is a way to move that area around, to reduce that effect, but it does mean that you need to do it, and after three moves, you have run out of places to move it.

When I tried UDF as a place to write backup files, I ended up with a few DVDs that had a bad spot, right in the middle of the disk, after about 100 backup cycles. Even moving the directory structure wouldn't fix that problem. All I could do was try to get a known file into that area, and never access it again. Then, I would need to reformat after about 50 more backup passes, moving the directory structure again, and fiddling around to get a known file into the bad spot. Even if you do move the directory structure, before it goes bad, you can't get much more than 300 backups to a DVD, before it starts to fail, and you can depend on it failing when you try to do a restore. If you write the DVDs using CDFS (using DVDDAO), you can get much closer to the 1000 (or so) writes that are claimed for RW media. In fact, most RW media is capable of doing many more writes, if you can manage to not scratch it. Of course, you don't have the lifetime problem if all you do is read the disk (you can still scratch it). It is essential to do a write verify, to be sure that nothing went wrong (it often does, even with no scratches). Of course, video, and audio, generally doesn't get too upset if it can't read the disk. Backups are a different story.

The answer to the problem? If you are doing backups, don't use optical media. I also avoid tape, and use an external hard disk drive. I have one that is a USB drive (1 TB), which works pretty good, but is painfully slow. I have another one, that has both USB and eSATA (640 GB). USB is painfully slow, but eSATA is just as fast as SATA I. Of course, you do need an eSATA port to use that feature. After using both of them, I have decided that I probably should have a NAS drive, with a Gb interface. Of course, you then need to find one that is OS/2 friendly.

Of course, the OP's problem is probably that the disk has some format that he doesn't have the driver for (or, it is blank, or he didn't format it as UDF, or he forgot to close it out, or ???). I am not familiar with the "Toys" package, so I don't know how it works. I do expect that it uses the CDFS file system.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Pete on 2011.06.05, 03:12:30
Hi Doug

Would that "BAD information" be:-

"DVD-Video media use UDF version 1.02."

Which is backed up on the 2nd link:-

"After the first version of UDF was released, it was adopted by the DVD Consortium as the official file system for DVD Video and DVD Audio."


Here are some more links for you to look at

http://www.dvdburning.biz/dvd-file-system-specifications.htm

http://www.burnworld.com/dvd/primer/filesystem.htm

Regards

Pete
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: ivan on 2011.06.05, 03:16:15
Hi Doug,

Have a look at a D-Link DNS-320 or DNS-323 for NAS storage I have both here each set to RAID1 with the 320 backing up the 323 which is backing up all the computers.  Both have Gb network, the 323 uses Ext2 file system and the 320 Ext3 so there may be a problem with EAs - Ext2 has space for 4k EAs but OS/2 can have 64k EAs.

ivan
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: DougB on 2011.06.05, 19:40:32
Quote
Would that "BAD information" be:-

I think it is just poorly worded in a few sections, but that may have something to do with being tired when I read it.

It seems that video, and audio, do use UDF, with back door support for CDFS too. I guess I should try out UDF again, but I am not sure that I see any real benefit from using it. Of course, any disk that is formatted UDF, without the back door support, would need UDF to have any hope of reading it. Then, there could also be problems if a later version of UDF is used on the disk, since the latest UDF for OS/2 is version 2.01.

Too many possibilities causes a very high maintenance file system to be somewhat unpredictable.

Quote
Have a look at a D-Link DNS-320 or DNS-323 for NAS storage

Thanks, I will look around. I am not so sure that EAs are really important, they are used only in limited ways by some of the stuff that is on the boot drives. Any others are optional. EAs can be stored by ZIPing (or otherwise compressing) files, or by using EAUTIL to save, and restore, them, but that is a bit of a PITA.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Pete on 2011.06.06, 13:24:35
Hi Doug

In my limited experience later versions of UDF read discs formatted with earlier versions of UDF without problems.

However, if using UDF formatted discs for packet writing (ie using DVD RW as a backup medium) then problems can occur when trying to write to discs formatted with earlier versions of UDF. I found it necessary to copy data off the DVD and reformat the disc with the later version of UDF to avoid those problems.

These days I do my backups to a 1Tb USB drive and do not bother with UDF packet writing. Using this drive also avoids the EA problems that go with trying to use a linux based NAS  :-)

Regards

Pete
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: DougB on 2011.06.06, 18:07:31
Quote
I found it necessary to copy data off the DVD and reformat the disc with the later version of UDF to avoid those problems.

As I recall, I was always formatting UDF, just to recover from errors. UDF was definitely not a reliable way to make backups. Now, I use DVDDAO to write my DVD backups (with auto verify), and I am having much better results. Of course doing that effectively formats the disk every time. DVDDAO also writes to CDs.

I too have a 1 TB USB drive, which works well with RSYNC (nightly). The main problem with that is that it is really slow, if I need to do a major restore (never, yet). Yes, it is running at USB 2.0 speeds, with the speedup patch applied. 1 TB is just a LOT of data.  :)

To write the backups to DVD, I create some backup files (weekly, using BackAgain/2000, which does have some problems) onto my hard disk, then I burn them to DVD using DVDDAO. That also means that I have the original backup files on the hard disk (also copied to the USB drive), so I use them, when possible (almost always, so far). Of course, the BA/2K backups are limited to the "important" stuff, and I depend on the USB drive for the rest.

My third line of defense is a bootAble DVD (monthly), with another BA/2K backup of the "REALLY important" stuff, which I keep offsite.

http://hrbaan.home.xs4all.nl/bootAble/ (http://hrbaan.home.xs4all.nl/bootAble/)

Note that this is a new address for bootAble (it is almost the same as the old address). I recommend the WPI installer version of bootAble, because that includes the ConfigMaker program, which makes it much easier to get started.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: RobertM on 2011.06.08, 00:15:33
I think the first link has some really BAD information on it. The second link describes UDF, but makes no claim to be a preferred file system for DVD (I have never seen a "commercial" DVD with UDF, but I won't say that they don't exist).

I have... but most of the DVDs I've seen support some weird mode combinations. Not an exclusive "Hey, it's just a UDF format" or such.

The standard combinations are one, two or all three of the following:
- ISO9660
- Joliet
- UDF

The programs I use on our sole Windows box to build DVDs supports UDF by itself, ISO9660 by itself; or in conjunction with one or both of the others (ie: Joliet is always an option including WITH something else and cannot be selected separately).

I suspect OS/2 simply reports the DVD as whatever format is compatible with whatever file system filter it's using. In the case of you seeing CDFS, I suspect it's ISO9660-1999. I've seen this often included for compatibility purposes. If OS/2 reports the disk as ISO9660, that does not mean it does not use UDF. It probably means it uses UDF *and* ISO9660-1999. With UDF disabled, you'll see it as an ISO9660 disk. With UDF enabled, I've got no clue. No idea how OS/2 prioritizes such, though I'd assume it'll use UDF *IF* the file system support is of sufficient level to handle the version on the disk (ie: v2.60... if your OS/2 install doesnt support it, it may fall back to ISO9660 support, even though the disk is UDF compatible).
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: Andi on 2011.06.08, 12:44:53
If you really want to make backups on discs then use DVD-RAM with UDF.

But don't think a disc is a good choice these days when CF-cards with more than 4GB and external USB harddisks with a lot more space and speed are available. Remember with DVD-RAM the drive makes the defect management by itself transparently to the OS and CF-cards usually make too. Which beside others makes these two medias by far more reliable then ordinary CD or DVDs or SD-cards.
Title: Re: DVD reading under OS/2 Warp 4.52
Post by: MrJinx on 2011.06.08, 15:59:30
While I have seen a lot of interesting discussion here, I would like to offer a very simple suggestion. Please open your config.sys file and make sure udf.ifs is being loaded before the cdfs.ifs statement. I recall having this same problem back on Warp 4.52 as I could not watch DVD movies using Warpvision until the statements were traded.

I'm not sure why but the ifs's are loaded in order and searched the same way. eComstation users on 1.2 and higher never see this problem as the config.sys is re-ordered that way by default. should look like this when correct.

IFS=D:\OS2\JFS.IFS /LW:5,20,4 /AUTOCHECK:*
IFS=D:\OS2\HPFS.IFS /CACHE:2048 /CRECL:4 /AUTOCHECK:*
IFS=D:\OS2\BOOT\UDF.IFS /Q
IFS=D:\OS2\BOOT\CDFS.IFS /Q /W

After checking or correcting this, Suggestions in some of the other posts may apply.

As for the backup suggestion, Blu-Ray drives are getting cheap as well as the media and I have been using them since DVD Toys was first released with great success. 25 gig per disk is a much nicer chunk combined with zipping the folders to retain the EA's.