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Messages - Saijin_Naib

#1321
Holy crap. Ill try and respond in turn as well as I can.

Now the API situation is more clear. I did not know that things were that muddled up behind what I see. Like you pointed out, I am simply and end user, though I think I am above average in my understanding of computers compared to most other people.

In regards to whether or not I am kidding myself about XPs performance vs OS/2... No, I am really not.
I have a modest computer. 512mb RAM, 40gb IDE drive, P4 3.06ghz (single core HT) and a FX5500. It takes windows XP 42 seconds to get to my desktop. OS/2 takes a minute 23 seconds. Windows XP can decompress and move files much faster than OS/2 seems to be able. It also deletes files faster, and I dont have to worry about is my trash can going to actually delete it, or will I have to reboot, put in blackhole and try again? Trashcan may just be an eWP/xWP issue. In terms of phyiscal memory usage, both OS are running almost EXACTLY the same ammount of RAM, and XP manages to look nicer while doing so (subjective of course).
Ive found the OS/2 WPS to be very snappy and quick, which is nice, but simple things can sometimes cause slight hangs. Now, speaking of hangs, OS/2 is very, very prone (for me) to hangs, and unresponisve apps can almost never be closed without losing the WPS responsiveness and the need for a reboot. I dont like the SIQ limitation and the freezes it can invariably cause. Ive almost made a keyboard/monitor hybrid due to something dumb locking up and losing my whole damn work environment. Simply does not happen on XP. Windows 98 and ME? Ubetcha. I <3 NT kernel for that.

In terms of backwards compatability for Windows XP, I have yet to run into an issue. I may just be lucky in that regard. In terms of OS/2, I dont even know what the apps that Im using were orignally intended for, but I am familiar with how well it handles all older applications for OS/2.

Apple is an isolated product with isolated hardware, I hardly think their example applies here when x86 hardware/software is so varied.

I beta-tested Vista and was generally happy with it. It ran most everything of mine without issue, except Sonique and AIM 5.5 with deadaim, both times I was informed of potential compatibility issues and was told of upgrades/possible fixes. That was acceptable, I did not expect sonique to work great seeing as DirectAudio was replaced in Vista.

I was under the impression that OpenOffice's lackluster performance was due to it being based mostly on Java (which isnt exactly lightning fast) and also having to use the Innotek JVM which is itself running through some sort of Windows abstraction layer or emulation through the Innotek Runtime. Full on native port of OpenOffice might prove faster, but we would need a new, native JVM for that. That aside, OpenOffice on my Xp box (I have it for the odd document format that Office XP cant recognize) is waaaay faster.

Firefox on OS/2 absolutely TANKS if any skins or addons are applied to it. Its to the point where its not even browsable. Im guessing its something to do with how PM renders graphics or calls to the display adapter.

In terms of long-term performance, I have had this XP install for almost 2 years without incident or noticble degradation in performance. However, OS/2 gets re-installed very often due mostly to my lacking OS/2 skill and also partly to its tendency to get bogged down and just generally slow for, to me, unbeknownst reasons. Id love to see a JFS degrament utility to see if this is the issue at hand, or if its .ini bloat or some other OS/2 weirdness that may very well be my fault.

Never thought on why Windows apps were large, it never really is a concern. I have more than enough space for all my productivity software and documents, ideally, all I should be doing. However, my large collection of my photos, music, videos, and games take up an inordinate ammount, and I am fairly certain they would do so no matter the OS.

You dont paint a rosy picture for getting any windows applications to work under OS/2. I had no idea it was that difficult. I assumed that the similar nature of windows and OS/2 would lend some ease to the process, but my knowledge is not worth much in this regard. Again, how does WINE do it then?

As for the hardware issues, you cant blame MS for hardware vendors not having current drivers. Im fairly certain hardware drivers for OS/2 Warp 3 do NOT work for OS/2 Warp 4, and I dont think this driver issue is exclusive to MS operating systems.

For software that is old running on XP, I use photoshop 7 or above, after affects 6.5 or above, Office XP and above, AIM 5.5 and above, Steam, Winzip, Sonique, Nero, and PowerDVD. Also Minitab, Adobe Reader (wish Lucide ran on windows, its so friggin fast), DC++ and ABC for torrents. Thats my software package, same as it was on Windows 2k Pro, same as it was on Windows ME and 98se when I had them. I (personally) have NOT had issues with windows backwards compatability, and I think (to me) its better than apple launching the classic emulation environment when you want to load something. Its a friggin chore on my friends Imac when I want to use Aliens V Predator. Again, I guess Im that ONE windows guy thats lucky and doesnt have issues...

Im fairly certain Apple forces upgrade cycles as well, as would IBM if they hadnt stopped OS/2 oh, 13 years ago. I called IBM for some questions on getting Warp4 to install and 4 different tech reps didnt even know what OS/2 was. Yeah, IBM really sticks with their product.

Ive run XP Sp2 on its absolute minimum requirements, IE, my craptop. My Compaq Presario 1240. I cant even get eCS (2.xx) to install properly on it, though 1.2mr does MOSTLY work, but only after a tedious process of transferring updates and drivers to it via floppy because USB is broken until god knows how many updates are applied. Also, no NIC drivers for my PCMCIA cards, so no broad-band network loving for updates there.
I also had a 486 computer with 16mb of ram runnign windows 95 for a good 3 years. Never let me down (well, not until the power supply bit it). That came after the Warp 4 aptiva we had bit the dust hard.

As for MS bashing, I guess its okay, but I really dont see why. It seems to be the same shit from every company, IBM and MOST especially Apple. They are a heinous bunch... They are, after all, companies, and the bottom line is really all that figures in. I donno, for me, I have had the best experience on Windows. Started with Mac, never again. Went to OS/2, liked it, it died, went to Windows. Now Ive been Windows since 3.11 and Im keeping it. It has my productivity software, it has my games, and it has my drivers for print/scan and everything else I want, my media players (hardware) included. I want OS/2 because of a touch of nostalgia, and beacuse its a bit different and I like how it works, though I cant really put my finger on it. However, it does not have the hardware support I need, it can NOT run the games I want, it lacks in the MTP/PTP department, and as of yet, can NOT print to my printer or acquire images from my scanner, thus rending it useless to me as a productivity, multimedia, or gaming platform. What does that leave it as? Web browsing and hobby OS. :\ I paid a crapload (for a college student budget) to have only a hobby OS. I have yet to find a decent image editing suite (I almost got Photoshop 7 to run in Odin), OpenOffice does not cut it for productivity, MrMessage is coming along so my socialization is there, no games really run, and I am terrified of updating my hardware because I fear that OS/2 wont run. I want to rebuild on a Core2duo with a lot of ram, and a pretty 7950GT and a Western Digital Raptor X drive. Why? Cause its going to flyyy and I can finally game at over 15fps. Im tired of only running Quake3 moderately well and CS 1.6 well. Im done being stuck in 2000. However, I fear that if i get this new hardware, my investment in eCS will be in vain because it will most likely not install or run properly.

This all however, was beside my orignal point.
I want Win32 API compatability, I suspect others do as well. I am not a programmer, and so I guess I have gone far past my usefullness in this regard. I think Odin should be revived with a bounty, but Im not sure how to go about starting a bounty with an achievable goal. The impression I get is that its too hard and should be left where it is. I see that as another nail in the coffin for keeping eCS attractive. Like it or not, the modern consumer wants a flashy UI (PM is definately dated in this regard), out of the box hardware support (eCS is spotty here), program support for their favorite apps (wealth of OpenSource in Linuxes, and WINE apps too, OS/2 is however lacking severely) and a good user experience (I like the WPS alot). Id like to see OS/2 succeed, it holds a place in my heart and my wallet, and any competition always yields better products.

Please note, its 4am for me, so I may or may not have rambled beyond comprehension. I apologize.
#1322
Okay, now I see what you are talking about, but I feel the need to ask, is this just Windows API, or is it any API? I feel that maybe you are attacking MS just because its MS. That issue aside, I see what you are saying. That raises another question then: How did they get Odin to where it is, and how do things like WINE function then?

Would the best approach (instead of a PM translation of the win32 API) be a package approach of custom tailored DLL and .SYM files that are compiled for a specific application?

For instance, I want Office XP/2003 (hate office 2007, probably a shitload of dependencies on other MS APIs (.net framework maybe?)). Instead of a WINE type API solution to it, would it be easier for someone to somehow compile custom .DLL and .SYM files in a little Odin Office XP/2003 package? What then? Does the current Odin environment load it through its PE.exe using the new .dll and .sym files? If this approach works for one app compiled by one guy, and another person wants another app but it shares some files, wont there be overlap?

Would it be best to just break down the process by converting DLL by DLL, one by one, full port to PM?
So lets say we choose Windows XP SP2 (Vista is a whole other animal) as our Win32 API starting point.
We start with the first .dll in the system32 folder, in my case 6to4svc.dll (for IPv6 to IPv4 route/translation). We port that .DLL over to an PM or Odin DLL, as is. No bug fixes, nothing.

However much flaming Im going to get from this next statement, so be it.

Windows runs. It runs my programs, all the time, without issue. Office always works. AIM always works. Photoshop ALWAYS works. As a matter of fact, I almost never have program crashes (Notable exception, Lycos Sonique 1.96 but I love it anyway). Now, If i were talking about OS/2 and its performance, well, this would be a different story entirely...

Something must be right in the API to have this consistancy of performance, and I know, I know, you all hate windows blah blah blah. Leave that shit at the door, I am trying to be serious and without bias here, so please read/talk maturely.

So if we assume that the API works and if we just remap the calls to a way that OS/2 understands verbatim, we wont break anything, right? Because we aren't changing it, we are just making sure it all gets interpreted, right?

I really am trying to understand and think as much as I can about this because I want to see OS/2 have Win32 API (whether or not its "as buggy" as the original  ::) ) because I feel it would be a MAJOR selling point for possible migrants, dual-booters, or hobby-OS users. Oh yeah, and myself. I hate open-office with an undying passion. Its so searingly mediocre and slow. AND, to add insult to injury, I am paying a subscription to see little work done to a FREE program that I hate. Thats a kick in the nuts. Id rather pay to have Office work properly under OS/2, and any other Windows app that follows.
#1323
Seeing as I dont understand what Terry is talking about, Im just going to go ahead and ignore that post. How about if Odin is coninued in the same way it was developed? It seemed to be re-mapping API calls from WIN32 API to OS/2 API, and somehow doing it with .dll and .sym files. What was their end goal originally? How did they envision their path? Why not simply continue working on it?
#1324
Why does the path say C:\\
Isnt that wrong?
#1325
I dont see the point in working piece-work to get only certain applications to work. I feel like that would be counter-productive in a way. I think that having the whole Odin API worked on in a way that would eventually result in a full native implementation of the Win32 API (akin to WINE) would be a much more worthile goal, and also a more efficient path to take rather than specific little odin packages for certain applications. I know its a nebulous goal, but I think that just having the funding available is worthwhile and a great incentive.
#1326
Amiga has UI transparency? I am jealous :(
#1327
Looks awesome dude!
#1328
This is true... I never said this had to happen at once, I just think that it should come back into active development and that a Odin wiki site with a ton of info on how to get set up for Odin and info on how to help compile the .sym files and whatnot should be made. I wouldnt know where to start to try and help even if I could program. I think the ultimate goal should be a Win32 API implementation on the same plane as WINE, but it does not need to be immediate. Perhaps a little at a time, just incremental improvements that over time can become a complete solution.
#1329
Id have to contend. Paul Smedley is working on Gnash (open source Flash) as a stand alone player and a plugin for Firefox family of products, so no need for flash player there.
Realplayer is okay, however, WarpVision plays most formats of audio and video, and PM123 could have a plugin written for it to play your real-audio files. This sort of negates these programs as needed to be run through Odin. Of course, there are probably other features/reasons you wish to have these applications through odin, so I can not say for sure.

I think the Odin API should be a complete solution akin to WINE so people have the ability to run whatever they wish. This is an incredibly attractive feature of a non-MS operating system for those people who have a pole up their ass about using Windows for whatever reason, but still wish to use Windows software. Myself, I dont mind windows, and I want Win32API support for eCS because its cool and I like working in eCS. Id also like to see eCS/OS2 stay alive, and if it can keep up with the Linuxes a little better, this will become more of a reality.

Myself, I feel that Microsoft Office can not be without. OpenOffice is okay for free software, but I am paying a subscription to it and it, im my opinion, is not worth any ammount of money.
#1330
Do you think this will be supported by the community? Is there a way for us to gague whether people want to see the Odin project continued? I do want to help in some way, and I will start a bounty, but can someone post a front-page poll or survey so we can see what the response will be?
#1331
I think you may be able to do the syslevel command and get that information. I am not sure :( I use eComStation 2.0 RC2, so it has mostly all the updates I will ever need already applied. I think the eComStation site has the MPTS and TCP-IP stacks available for update, so maybe (if it does not violate any EULA terms) i can email those files to you. Also, you may wish to give this utility a try, I have had good luck with it for setting up xfree86 for me, as well as Flash 7r69.

http://www.ecomstation.it/ecsoft2/prog.php?progid=1323&name=OS%2F2%20Maintenance%20Tool&sys=os2+ecomstation
Be sure to read carefully and make sure you only install what you need you know.
Good luck!
#1332
If you are able to update your TCP/IP stacks and MTPS, please do so. I feel that Firefox and Seamonkey are light years ahead of the last Opera for OS/2 (5.xx) which is limited, insecure, slow, and ad-supported. As far as I know, there is only the Innotek 1.42_xx JVM and the Goldencode 1.42__ JVM. IBM JVM stopped at 1.31 as far as I can recall.
#1333
Damn :( I really think eCS needs this, be it through Odin or WAPE. Is WAPE officially dead? For that matter, is Odin officially dead? Which is the best method of getting windows32 API support? Which is the easiest to develop for? In short, which one should be funded and resurrected?
#1334
Well, seeing as I have no knowledge of programming what-so-ever, and dont even know how to set up an environment within eCS for compiling things, I would say that I would not be of much use. Would starting a bounty and getting enough funding help to get the Odin project back under active development?
#1335
Been there as well :p
That post about Photoshop 7 and office XP is me.
So, Im guessing that Odin is an as-is thing from now on? Its a dead project? Im asking because I may wish to start a bounty to get that and Everblue back in active development. We need to pull a larger community to OS/2 and with the win32 API capabilites of Odin at a WINE level and a true linux sub-system that is native to the PM ala Everblue, OS/2 would start to look more and more attractive to tech geek types, like myself, and possibly the many linux freaks at my college.