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eCS and bittorrent

Started by craigm, 2008.06.01, 15:29:34

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ddan

Incremental update to CTORMON2.ZIP now on Hobbes. Has improved reliability and faster keyboard response, besides a little cosmetic. May be some version confusion because MIturbide mentioned it in News by that name, though it's changed enough to be bumped up to 3, its internal number. Look in Hobbes \incoming directory, or check that date is 06\15.

Regardless, it makes ctorrent9 much pleasant, particularly for re-starting torrents.

ddan

Further improvement to Ctorrent Monitor now on Hobbes:
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/incoming/CTORMON4.ZIP

Adds a little more convenience to finish with a torrent (though keeping the file on hand).
Reliability also appears to be improved. I've used the previous version without problem daily since last release, and I hope this version builds on that without introducing any bugs...

I'm now definitely finding this about as convenient as any GUI bittorrent client (while using FAR fewer resources). Volker Ehlert's ctorrent9.exe seems rock solid, not a single problem with it despite frequent starts and re-starts in my testing.

jep

#17
Hello,

eros2's ctorrent seem to be a bit more unpolished, so ctorrent9 seem to handle most of the problems better, great, but the next step I'd like to see is.

Am a long time bittorrent user (several years) on OS/2 and eComStation but have thought about this for a long time...

Improvement 1
How about rewriting it somewhat and create a .dll that also would be callable by rexx?! The rexx part should be quite easy actually and would make it really useful to many, not to mention how well it would integrate with the rexx scripts.

Improvement 2
Output info about parts downloaded so that GUI apps can show ███    ██  █ ▄ █ etc.

Improvement 3
Create a folder class for WPS that will show files beeing downloaded, hopefully a combination similar to http://www.xn--lrka-loa.com/progressbar/progressbars.html and http://www.xn--lrka-loa.com/Progress.html

What do you think?!

//Jan-Erik

Saijin_Naib

I like how you're thinking Jep. I still think a PM-GUI app would be easier, but a nice WPS class like you have suggested would be pretty cool as well.

ddan

Hmm. The above points up major differences in philosophy on which I muse now
and then. It's not just the ancient GUI / text debate, it's more of a "good
enough" versus "WAY more features than necessary, so many that basic function
is lost", and touches on every aspect of why I so greatly prefer OS/2. I'll
try to limit focus here to just ctorrent.

Volker Ehlert, along with I presume others, for their own probably essentially
geeky reasons, have given us a simple command-line tool that does everything
necessary to download a torrent. I'm grateful for it, as the application is
definitely above my level of interest to pursue, and probably above my
competence to even compile, let alone code. So Ctorrent9 is GOOD ENOUGH for
me, certainly so for the limited use I have for bittorrent.

But I'm NOT DISAPPOINTED with "good enough". I'm a utilitarian whose GOAL is
"good enough". Ctorrent9 does what it's supposed to without needing my
attention. That's GOOD program design.

As I've pointed out previously, the only problem using it is the NUISANCE of
starting torrents, either right after download or resuming after power-off. So
I wrote a little front end for ctorrent9 in REXX which helps with that.

All too often in the computer world, useless eye-candy is tacked on, along
with "features" that I never use. The philosophical divide occurs here: WHY
should -- HOW could -- this be "improved" with graphics when it does its one
function without problem, without annoying me?

My central problem with GUI the way Crimosoft does it is that it FREQUENTLY
demands my attention for some "problem" that I don't care about: a little box
pops up and demands a click when I have "unused icons"; a floppy format
finishes NORMALLY and up pops a dialog box demanding that I acknowledge it,
because to Crimosoft, successfully formatting a floppy IS a big deal --
anyway, the NAGGING is ENDLESS, even after turning off "balloon tips".

All of that just distracts me from the little bit of creativity that I have.
Sure, I have, and frequently still do, just PLAY with the computer as such,
but recent GUIs demand CONSTANT attention, something must always be flashing.
I don't want progress bars flashing while I'm concentrated on this text, for
instance, so I minimize or cover even the Ctorrent monitor window. If I want
to know the status of downloads, I just hit ctrl-esc, and they're in the
window list. The status lines in Ctorrent Monitor are almost incidental: I
used them for information while debugging, then prettied them up a bit.

Without flashing, the WPS, besides the rest of OS/2, just sits there, doing
what it's supposed to. It's BORING, and that was INTENDED. I'm GLAD that the
software engineers spent their time on fundamentals rather than frills. Last
weekend, I showed this system to a fellow who was thoroughly UN-impressed with
the same chunky icons of 1993 just sitting there. He doesn't understand that
OS/2 was written fresh from the ground up, drawing of course on previous
experience which avoided most of the problems while greatly innovating. He
doesn't understand that though OS/2 looks little different from Windows 3.1,
it's actually STILL more revolutionary than anything else Crimosoft wrote. It
was TOO revolutionary: Crimosoft greedily continued peddling a graphical shell
atop single-tasking DOS for at least SEVEN years after OS/2 2.1GA. Incredible.

IF OS/2 development had continued -- but that gets to my point: seems very few
people are able to live with "good enough". Crimosoft in particular keeps
adding eye candy without ANY increase of function. So we in the OS/2 world are
perhaps lucky that it HASN'T been "improved" except for necessary fixes.

Perhaps OS/2's BORING reliability was actually part of the reason it lost in
the "marketplace". With Windows, you always have the impression that it's
doing something complex and exciting, and because boring old reliability was
way down on their list of importance, you soon learn that you do indeed have
to watch it constantly, and even then can't avoid some pretty spectacular
crashes. OS/2 just can't match Windows for that "edge of the cliff" feeling.
-- I'm mostly serious. People LIKE to be scared: just consider how popular are
horror movies, role-playing games, and rollercoasters.

So... Guess I sum up for now by saying that I prefer BORING.

ivan

At last, a person with my way of thinking!
I have three computers of friends sitting on my workbench with problems that need rectifying.  The owners are beginning to think about OS/2 and the fact that it just continues to work.  In one case I loaned a friend a spare computer (with OS/2 and Describe) so he could continue with his degree work.  I got it back only after he finished his degree with new computer and a copy of WSEB he'd got from ebay and a request I put the two together.  Reason, OS/2 had just worked and continued working when others of his friends had had problems with windows.  He does not worry about how it looks, just the fact it works.

About bittorrent, I agree that as long as it works it is enough.  Maybe it would be nice if directories could be more easily selected but for my use (downloading various linux distros) it works which is all I ask.

jep

#21
Hello,

I agree with you that flashing eye candy is a distraction and that it doesn't make the app useful. Command line tools contain the core functionality and they provide us with the features we need, no question about it.

You wrote a rexx script for ctorrent9 that we have tried and many of us use over and over again?!

So why did you do that, and why do we use it?
Perhaps because it add some useful feature not available in ctorrent itself?

What feature/functionality was the goal and why do we write additions and e.g. rexx scripts in general for various tasks?
It's not because it add another layer on top of the command line app, it's because we can use it without bothering about configuration here, parameters there etc. it takes care about those things for us and show us the relevant information, exactly how it should work.

I write scripts myself to fill in the gaps that some software or configurations may have, while at other times just to make it easier to handle certain tasks that I want it for.


The idea with the download folder is to create a common download manager to attach e.g. a ctorrent plugin as the bittorrent engine, "wget" or "cURL" for http and ftp, "mms" for multimedia streams etc. and the whole system could use that. We'll have to write new plugins as new download techniques emerge, but not whole apps, and have one common way to deal with downloads. We can write rexx scripts to fetch the files using the download manager, software developers won't have to write/port their own versions of download engines etc. but rather use what others wrote once thus save several man hours in projects that do almost the same.

The second part is how to present the files beeing downloaded, and that's where the wps is so
handy, we'd get a neat, compact, unified, native way to show files. I often start and keep more than
10 bittorrents at once but want all the info in one view, preferably as prograssbars, but sometimes
want more detailed info. Research in the area mention that it's harder and take longer to get an
overview with numerical presentation of data than a progressbar, but is less accurate, provided that
accuracy is what the user want. VIO or GUI doesn't really matter, both can show the same information
(progressbars, numerical etc.), but pehaps in slightly different ways. The VIO display can also be
used on other systems (OSes) with no to little modification and appeal to many. How about the power that the wps offer, not for eye candy, "just because we can" as in some OSes, but because wps-folders provide the OS/2-eCS way of doing things? It won't hurt if it's useful and reveal ways to be productive.

//Jan-Erik

Saijin_Naib

.. Without delving into an argument, simply put, the CMD app does not provide ENOUGH functionality. If it did, you wouldn't need a REXX script and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Now, this also plays into my "is OS/2 even capable of rendering a GUI application natively" train of thought because I've yet to see a native PM-GUI application that was halfway attractive or well laid out. The best looking OS2-GUI apps are using some sort of windowing abstraction kit. Can we make a SIMPLE (emphasis on the SIMPLE) GUI app to supplement the shortcomings of only having a CMD bittorrent client?

Here is a SIMPLE GUI client that doesn't (oh my dear god no!) pop up anything other than confirm/deny on operations. Would this do?




magog

Looks pretty much like my Azureus 2.5.0.4 "hack" Christian mentioned on the first page.
Here you find a picture (more pictures using different Java "Look and Feels") are available at the link (remove the filename.
The image shows the german text on labels, menu,.. but you can change the language at the configuration dialog:
http://www.juergen-ulbts.de/Sonstiges/Java/AzureusSWTSwing/Azureus2504_on_eCS20_02_using_SWTSwing_2007-08-01.jpg

It should be possible to create a simple GUI for ctorrent using WDSibyl (Borland Delphi like IDE):
http://www.wdsibyl.org/
Regards,
Juergen
*** Java Movie Database - http://www.jmdb.de/

RobertM

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.07.08, 21:35:44
.. Without delving into an argument, simply put, the CMD app does not provide ENOUGH functionality. If it did, you wouldn't need a REXX script and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Now, this also plays into my "is OS/2 even capable of rendering a GUI application natively" train of thought because I've yet to see a native PM-GUI application that was halfway attractive or well laid out. The best looking OS2-GUI apps are using some sort of windowing abstraction kit. Can we make a SIMPLE (emphasis on the SIMPLE) GUI app to supplement the shortcomings of only having a CMD bittorrent client?

The key is, maybe it does... think about the parts of OS/2 that are REXX driven (or the other addons) because the back end stuff is "functional" enough - but just needs a little help?

;)


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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ddan

To jep: no, THE KEY is that ctorrent9 doesn't provide the convenience that I
want in the way that I want it. But the basic function is there. It's an
observable fact that Linux types (from which ctorrent was ported) are fond of
typing, so from their perspective, it's a FINE tool, and I agree. I also like
Dink's Z text mode MP3 player, but for some reason, he didn't implement
scheduled streaming and recording, so I wrote a front-end for it too (TIME4Z12
on Hobbes). I don't exactly regard being able to fairly easily customize the
system (OS/2 with REXX and ctorrent9) for my simple tastes as a drawback. It's
rather in line with what we were promised in the late '80s of amateurs
assembling programs from building blocks furnished by experts. REXX is the
glue that allows such assembling. As I've said elsewhere, REXX is OS/2's best
hidden feature.

To put it in perspective: all of XP doesn't provide the convenience that I
want in the way that I want it; items that I've taken for granted in OS/2
since 2.1GA (my first experience), real time-slice pre-emptive multitasking,
long file names, Installable File Systems including a High Performance File
System that broke the 2G FAT barrier, actual objects on the desktop not merely
shortcuts... It's only fast hardware that makes XP at all usable, because it's
actually HORRIBLE technically.

(Linux is MUCH better technically than Windows, but I'm never going to LIKE
its command line tools such as the vi editor the way I've liked many DOS
programs.)

OS/2 is an operating system for PERSONAL COMPUTERS, not an imitation of Unix
mixed with Apple's ideas and some daffy "original" innovations such as the
talking dog.


ddan

Er, my previous may merely expand on RobertM's comment, and is maybe directed more to Saijin_Naib as to missing functionality, and my comment to him is: I can't bear to put up with the ton of CRAP that comes with XP in order to have a pretty GUI bittorrent client. I'm not saying NICE GUI apps aren't possible, but the market always drives to an excess of "features" that don't increase function. For an excellent PM-GUI app, look to PMView 2000, best viewer I've come across on any OS, even though has a few points that annoy me.

And, I don't believe there's any ARGUMENT here. Sorry if that comes over in my rants against Windows.

A point I should have made is that I understand fairly well why various decisions and strategies were made in Linux and OS/2, but Windows... is pretty literally a software Frankenstein's monster, except that after the mysterious split with IBM, Crimosoft became absolutely rabid about keeping anything connected with OS/2 out of their products, and it's evident in the implementation of bizarre alternate strategies.

Saijin_Naib

And yet, it [XP] works brilliantly for me in every situation, and at my whim, requiring nearly no effort on my part what-so-ever. To each his own, that is all.

Robert, you are right, perhaps CTORRENT does provide the core functionality, but the interaction with the program is severly limited and rather poor. Its like KMP and MPLAYER. They are wonderful apps, can play damned near anything, but I'll be damned if I'm going to type a Doctorate Thesis's worth of a string to get things how I want it. Give me a GUI any day over a 1000 word CMD string needing app. Come on, we don't have monochrome 80x25 monitors anymore, lets move past the CMD only era, its very much passe.

RobertM

Hi Saijin,

As someone else pointed out (which will hopefully become a reality someday) a set of REXX callable entry points (DLL) would make things lots easier in many respects...

The thing I like about such commandline tools (especially with callable DLLs - REXX or otherwise) is that people are not limited to any one interface - or can choose nothing more than the text one if they are adverse to GUIs.

Our problems are... no DLL (yet?), and not enough people with time to write a GUI regardless.

As for "a 1000 word CMD string needing app" - once the cTorrent9.cmd file is set up properly, there isnt a need for anything except adding it to the browser (simple program select and checkbox click) - I even provided line by line insrtuctions on how to edit the CMD file, and how to set it up to work with the browser (someplace on the forums) - and others have made monitoring scripts and more for it making it even more "robust"). And restarting a torrent is as easy as drag-n-drop... or even easier by doing a simple file association on a cTorrent icon. Create an icon for the CMD file (not the executable), set it's association to "*torrent", "*.torrent", "*.*.torrent" etc and you are done... after that, simply double-clicking on a Torrent will restart it.

Drag-N-Drop... double-click... click on a torrent in the browser... very simple either way. The fact that it is commandline is irrelevant to it's ease. Commandline doesnt necessarily equate with difficult to use - definitely not in this case.

-Robert


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
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sdennis

Quote from: RobertM on 2008.07.14, 05:44:26
The thing I like about such commandline tools (especially with callable DLLs - REXX or otherwise) is that people are not limited to any one interface - or can choose nothing more than the text one if they are adverse to GUIs.

There's some who can't see the forest for the trees: we should be lucky to have a torrent client, period, GUI or no GUI.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with using a CLI interface-it's a lot less resources used on something that basically functions as window dressing (literally).  I use a lot of CLI-based programs with a good degree of satisfaction and success.

Now I must go try that program for myself.  I don't do a lot of torrent-based downloads (I've got enough junk laying around as it is!), but this might be a good one to fire up.

--Sean

P.S.  I know, I'm a few months late replying, but after my car accident, I'm doing things slower than I normally would.
OS/2: Shuts gates, opens windows.