Author Topic: Hardware report ASAP  (Read 8466 times)

ivan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #15 on: 2008.08.06, 10:24:12 »
Doug said
Quote
Mensys produces, and sells, eComStation, so it is not only fair that they keep the software for their own use, it is expected. To say that OS/2 users are not invited, is a rather narrow view. They are certainly invited to participate in the eCS adventure, by simply purchasing the product. Without eComStation, OS/2 would be as dead as Microsoft wishes it was.

Doug, my point is 'why not sell it to those that have os/2?'
I have always assumed Eugene is being paid for his work by someone - so it's Mensys.  Surely they would make more money by selling these extra addons to those of us with just os/2, or am I missing something here again?  Why limit it to ecs if ecs is os/2 with bells on?
I know you've been pushing ecs for a long time but I, and I assume a lot of others, have os/2 with everything ibm provided on the software choice program, up to fp5 official and fp6 un-official.
That being said I see no advantage to purchasing ecs which only appears to have bolted on extras which might be nice to have but are not essential.
I have wseb smp on several 64 bit processor systems - even my acer aspire 17 inch notebook (that took a little while mainly because the broadcom wifi was incomputable with everything other than vista - once I replaced it with an intel one everything began to work).
To sum up - why replace working systems with the same (if ecs is os/2) just to get addons when said addons could be sold via something like software choice for both ecs AND os/2.

Rudi said
Quote
...one of bad things in OS/2 is, that we have to deal with a nearly 20 year old binary-only kernel that was never
designed with that type of stuff in mind. Thus a lot of ugly hacking has to be done, to get it to work
at all...

And that rudi is my main point!  There are other people that may have the knowledge that is needed to get it right and working but if there is no information published as to the problems how are those people to know? 
Eugene is an optimist apparently, he keeps on saying 'it works' when Doug and others know it dosen't.  There is no shame in saying 'I have a problem here, can anyone offer a suggestion as to the way forward'.


EugeneGorbunoff

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #16 on: 2008.08.06, 15:45:58 »
please check the myths about eComStation
http://ecomstation.ru/myths


> why replace working systems with the same (if ecs is os/2) just to get addons when
> said addons could be sold via something like software choice for both ecs AND os/2.

Yes, you can buy eComStation software subscription! it gives you access to the updates.
« Last Edit: 2008.08.06, 15:49:43 by EugeneGorbunoff »

saborion2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
    • Orion Resources International
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #17 on: 2008.08.06, 16:10:40 »
Hi Ivan, Hi All,

A very nice post indeed;

Re:

Doug said
Quote
Mensys produces, and sells, eComStation, so it is not only fair that they keep the software for their own use, it is expected. To say that OS/2 users are not invited, is a rather narrow view. They are certainly invited to participate in the eCS adventure, by simply purchasing the product. Without eComStation, OS/2 would be as dead as Microsoft wishes it was.

Doug, my point is 'why not sell it to those that have os/2?'
I have always assumed Eugene is being paid for his work by someone - so it's Mensys.  Surely they would make more money by selling these extra addons to those of us with just os/2, or am I missing something here again?  Why limit it to ecs if ecs is os/2 with bells on?
I know you've been pushing ecs for a long time but I, and I assume a lot of others, have os/2 with everything ibm provided on the software choice program, up to fp5 official and fp6 un-official.
That being said I see no advantage to purchasing ecs which only appears to have bolted on extras which might be nice to have but are not essential.
I have wseb smp on several 64 bit processor systems - even my acer aspire 17 inch notebook (that took a little while mainly because the broadcom wifi was incomputable with everything other than vista - once I replaced it with an intel one everything began to work).
To sum up - why replace working systems with the same (if ecs is os/2) just to get addons when said addons could be sold via something like software choice for both ecs AND os/2.

Rudi said
Quote
...one of bad things in OS/2 is, that we have to deal with a nearly 20 year old binary-only kernel that was never
designed with that type of stuff in mind. Thus a lot of ugly hacking has to be done, to get it to work
at all...

And that rudi is my main point!  There are other people that may have the knowledge that is needed to get it right and working but if there is no information published as to the problems how are those people to know? 
Eugene is an optimist apparently, he keeps on saying 'it works' when Doug and others know it dosen't.  There is no shame in saying 'I have a problem here, can anyone offer a suggestion as to the way forward'.


And, in as much as "Mensys produces, and sells, eComStation" (OEM Version of OS/2) let us recall that IBM in its response letter to the OS/2 World Foundation said inter alia:

Quote
As stated in our response to your September 2005 letter we have considered the positioning of OS/2 and open source several times in the past, and for a variety of business, technical, and legal reasons we have decided to not pursue any OS/2 open source projects.


IBM has service offerings that continue to be available for customers who need ongoing support for OS/2, although IBM has no plans for product enhancements.

From the foregoing I find the following most interesting:

Quote
One thing that stands out to me is this comment from OS/2 World founder Kim Haverblad in Schindler’s post: “Sadly, IBM was ignorant enough to not answer our first letter.” That’s a pretty damning indictment of a company that regularly talks up the value of community and the open source development process.

http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/osb/?p=282


and, in extending "OS/2 World founder Kim Haverblad's" comment to the "Mensys" folks one can easily perceive the inherent values to both the OS/2 and eCS communities around the world of an at least "Shared-Source" option (if not an "open source development process") by both "IBM" and "Mensys" for OS/2 developers.

Kindest regards,

SAB
 

DougB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #18 on: 2008.08.06, 17:25:12 »
Ivan:

Quote
Doug, my point is 'why not sell it to those that have os/2?'
I have always assumed Eugene is being paid for his work by someone - so it's Mensys.  Surely they would make more money by selling these extra addons to those of us with just os/2, or am I missing something here again?  Why limit it to ecs if ecs is os/2 with bells on?

Well, I can see that you have little knowledge of the business world. A product needs to have something, to make it unique, and worth buying. ECS is no longer just "OS/2, with bells on". It has a number of things, that make it unique, and worth buying (the installer, bootable JFS, ACPI, and more), but the main thing that it has, are two companies (SSI, and Mensys, although Mensys is now the major player), who have an interest in promoting, and advancing, the operating system. Without them, I am not so sure that you would have as much as you do, since IBM seemed to be quite happy to leave the normal user at FP12, and charge full price for WSEB (which was well over $1000, as I recall). If Mensys made all of the new features available, it is quite likely, that they wouldn't sell as many copies of eCS, which lowers the value to IBM of keeping them as a reseller. In fact, a number of things, that were developed for, and by, eCS, have been released, for free, to the OS/2 community, as a whole (sorry, I don't remember, offhand, what they were, but they were significant, at the time). It isn't all about making more money, part of it is the political considerations, of keeping IBM happy with the arrangement, so they don't get cut off completely. That means, they need to have a market for the final product, and that means they need a carrot to hold in front of the buyer, to get them to buy the product. The "closed" projects are that carrot. If you want them, you buy eCS, which is still a bargain, IMO.

saborion2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
    • Orion Resources International
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #19 on: 2008.08.06, 18:05:57 »
Re:

Quote
Well, I can see that you have little knowledge of the business world. A product needs to have something, to make it unique, and worth buying. ECS is no longer just "OS/2, with bells on". It has a number of things, that make it unique, and worth buying (the installer, bootable JFS, ACPI, and more), but the main thing that it has, are two companies (SSI, and Mensys, although Mensys is now the major player), who have an interest in promoting, and advancing, the operating system. Without them, I am not so sure that you would have as much as you do, since IBM seemed to be quite happy to leave the normal user at FP12, and charge full price for WSEB (which was well over $1000, as I recall). If Mensys made all of the new features available, it is quite likely, that they wouldn't sell as many copies of eCS, which lowers the value to IBM of keeping them as a reseller. In fact, a number of things, that were developed for, and by, eCS, have been released, for free, to the OS/2 community, as a whole (sorry, I don't remember, offhand, what they were, but they were significant, at the time). It isn't all about making more money, part of it is the political considerations, of keeping IBM happy with the arrangement, so they don't get cut off completely. That means, they need to have a market for the final product, and that means they need a carrot to hold in front of the buyer, to get them to buy the product. The "closed" projects are that carrot. If you want them, you buy eCS, which is still a bargain, IMO.

In all fairness to Ivan's perceived "lack of knowledge of the business world"... this then ought to be a misnomer when IBM itself quite clearly stated in its response to the OS/2 World Foundation Petition Letter to Open-Source the OS/2 Operating System that
Quote
IBM has recommended that customers on OS/2 consider migration to alternative solution offerings, and has a broad array of software assets and services to help customers migrate. We would like to ask you to encourage any customers who are still planning their migrations or who have other technical requirements to contact their IBM representative to discuss how these assets and services could be leveraged.

thus, who in the world does not know to which alternative IBM was steering

Quote
customers on OS/2
BTW, from the best of my knowledge JFS is not native to eComStation as both it and Linux borrowed heavily (and benefited significantly from the OS/2 Operating System.

Quote
In 1995, work began to enhance the file system to be more scalable and to support machines that had more than one processor. Another goal was to have a more portable file system, capable of running on multiple operating systems. After several years of designing, coding, and testing, the new JFS was first shipped in OS/2 Warp Server for eBusiness in April, 1999, and then in OS/2 Warp Client in October, 2000. In December, 1999, a snapshot of the original OS/2 JFS source was granted to the open source community and work was begun to port JFS to Linux operating system. The first stable release of JFS for Linux appeared in June, 2001.[3]

In parallel with this effort, some of the JFS development team returned to the AIX Operating System Development Group in 1997 and started to move this new JFS source base to the AIX operating system. In May, 2001, a second journaled file system, Enhanced Journaled File System (JFS2), was made available for AIX 5L.[1] [3]

Around the summer of 2007 there was speculation that IBM is no longer interested in maintaining JFS and thus it shouldn't be used in production environments. [4] However early in 2008, a member of the IBM Linux Technology Center explained that they still follow changes in the Linux kernel and try to fix potential software bugs. He went on to add that certain distributions expect a larger resource commitment from them and opt not to support the filesystem. [5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFS_(file_system)


Best regards,

SAB

ddan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #20 on: 2008.08.07, 02:44:07 »
"thus, who in the world does not know to which alternative IBM was steering"

Well, I'M not sure: do they mean move to their own "big iron", use Linux on
existing hardware, Sun, or that IBM would variously advise based on each
customer's requirements? What may be clear to you may not be obvious -- or
agreed with -- so, just please tell us. Not a secret, is it?

Here's an item which may bear:
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/06/ibm-promotes-windows-free

And off-topic, for bizarre:
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/06/run-vista-playstation

saborion2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
    • Orion Resources International
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #21 on: 2008.08.07, 03:33:42 »
Hi ddan,

Re:

"thus, who in the world does not know to which alternative IBM was steering"

Well, I'M not sure: do they mean move to their own "big iron", use Linux on
existing hardware, Sun, or that IBM would variously advise based on each
customer's requirements? What may be clear to you may not be obvious -- or
agreed with -- so, just please tell us. Not a secret, is it?

Here's an item which may bear:

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/06/ibm-promotes-windows-free
......


Actually, I thought that the direction in which IBM attempted to steer customers was a "known" fact; and, if it is really true that you did not know about this then here is an hint for you (a very big one at that):

Quote

OS/2 Warp

Upgrades and migrations

IBM Migration Recommendations

IBM recommends that customers make the transition from client-and-server environments to the WebSphere software platform by exploiting key e-business technologies:

    * J2EE – for program portability
    * XML – for data portability
    * Internet protocols – for data transmission and communication control
    * IBM WorkplaceTM Client Technology – for rich client user interface and local processing
    * Browser – for Web-based application user interface
    * WebSphere Application Server and the WebSphere Portal – for application serving

There are no replacement products from IBM. IBM suggests that OS/2 customers consider Linux as an alternative operating system for OS/2 client and server environments.

IBM Migration Assistance

IBM Software Services for WebSphere and IBM Global Services (IGS) provide:

    * Design, build, test and deploy e-business application services
    * Branch infrastructure strategy, design, and migration services

IBM Global Services Linux Porting Service Practice provides custom application porting services for customers wishing to incorporate Linux into their application platform strategy.

Lotus® Professional Services (LPS) provides:

    * Consulting
    * Education
    * Getting Started and Acceleration Packages

Tivoli® Services provides assistance with architecting and implementing Tivoli management software.

For information on server transition, refer to the "OS/2 Server Transition" Redbook, SG24-6631-00, published in October 2003. For information on client transition, refer to the "OS/2 to Linux Client Transition" Redbook, SG24-6621-00, last updated January 11, 2005.

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/os/warp/migration.html


And, just in case you are not quite familiar with what happened in the banking industry (once the home of OS/2...); then, here is another hint for you:

Quote

IBM, Bankers at Odds Over OS/2 Migration Path
Vendor advises OS/2 users to switch to Linux, but ATM makers are leading push to Windows

http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/story/0,10801,83884,00.html


There is an old adage that goes like this ' "Who Pays The Piper Calls The Tune"! Also, from a technology perspective the Swedish Group - SWECO may be in a position to provide an hint for you. Ask our goodly colleague - Kim Haverblad about that Swedish Group's choice of Operating System. And, these are the reasons for sticking with OS/2. ;)

Best regards,

SAB


ivan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #22 on: 2008.08.07, 11:58:34 »

DougB said
Quote
  Well, I can see that you have little knowledge of the business world. A product needs to have something, to make it unique, and worth buying. ECS is no longer just "OS/2, with bells on". It has a number of things, that make it unique, and worth buying (the installer, bootable JFS, ACPI, and more), but the main thing that it has, are two companies (SSI, and Mensys, although Mensys is now the major player), who have an interest in promoting, and advancing, the operating system. Without them, I am not so sure that you would have as much as you do, since IBM seemed to be quite happy to leave the normal user at FP12, and charge full price for WSEB (which was well over $1000, as I recall). If Mensys made all of the new features available, it is quite likely, that they wouldn't sell as many copies of eCS, which lowers the value to IBM of keeping them as a reseller. In fact, a number of things, that were developed for, and by, eCS, have been released, for free, to the OS/2 community, as a whole (sorry, I don't remember, offhand, what they were, but they were significant, at the time). It isn't all about making more money, part of it is the political considerations, of keeping IBM happy with the arrangement, so they don't get cut off completely. That means, they need to have a market for the final product, and that means they need a carrot to hold in front of the buyer, to get them to buy the product. The "closed" projects are that carrot. If you want them, you buy eCS, which is still a bargain, IMO.

Doug, I would have thought the fact ecs is os/2 , albeit with bells on, is enough to sell it - to make it worth buying in its own right.  The 'bells' are secondary to the operating system - os/2!  Without that operating system you have nothing.
I am not a marketing droid but an engineer.  As such I'm more interested in what the product can do, proven, and not the marketing spiel.
Yes wseb was expensive but it works and works well.  On the strength of what my computers can do I've converted a number of people to os/2 (legitimate copies from ebay).
You will ask 'why not ecs?' to which I reply version 2 has been so long in coming, indeed its not here yet, and version 1 is apparently so little changed from standard os/2 mcp why not get the original os/2?
Your argument about buying ecs just for the 'enhancements' is only valid is you need a new licence.  I suspect there are a large number of people using os/2, like myself, who do not see the need to change their operating system for the same one just to get the enhancements.
When version 2 of ecs arrives (I won't say if) I will point new users in that direction, much easier than waiting for a copy to turn up on ebay.  Note I said NEW users.  I am not getting into the micro$oft way of thinking - here is something new, dump your existing and get the new. That worked for m$ in the past though indications are that its not doing so well at the moment.
IBM had the right idea in issuing fix packs, and slipping new features in that way, as well as software choice.  The fix packs have obviously finished but I am not convinced that a software choice style channel open to both os/2  and ecs is not a valid concept and would not upset IBM.


ddan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #23 on: 2008.08.07, 20:58:12 »
Thanks saborion2, but have to say that "IBM suggests that OS/2 customers consider Linux as an alternative operating system for OS/2 client and server environments" is STILL vague, maybe even more so than I previously thought. The word "for" instead of "to" MAY imply virtualization to keep existing OS/2 software running on new hardware. But maybe it's just lousily phrased.

In any case, Linux... is what I tried to dodge back in the 80's with MS-DOS. To say the least, it's not a PERSONAL operating system. To say the worst, Linux has more gotchas and weirdness than OS/2 and Windows combined. I've had to re-install mine no less than 3 times after innocently attempting official installs and updates, besides rescued it with manual editing three other times after utterly unexpected side effects.

So we're left with bad choices that get worse with every release. Virtualization of OS/2 may be the only hope in the long run.

Saijin_Naib

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1357
  • Birdie Num-Nums
    • View Profile
    • Synperz Domain
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #24 on: 2008.08.07, 21:22:04 »
Yeah, Linux is a flighty thing. I only like it in embedded applications, other than that, you can keep it far, far away. OS/2 and Windows mostly make sense, but both have oddities and weaknesses. I'd love to see a full desktopized PalmOS, but that won't ever happen -_-

saborion2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
    • Orion Resources International
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #25 on: 2008.08.08, 00:44:20 »
Hello ddan,

You are most welcome. Re:

Thanks saborion2, but have to say that "IBM suggests that OS/2 customers consider Linux as an alternative operating system for OS/2 client and server environments" is STILL vague, maybe even more so than I previously thought. The word "for" instead of "to" MAY imply virtualization to keep existing OS/2 software running on new hardware. But maybe it's just lousily phrased.

In any case, Linux... is what I tried to dodge back in the 80's with MS-DOS. To say the least, it's not a PERSONAL operating system. To say the worst, Linux has more gotchas and weirdness than OS/2 and Windows combined. I've had to re-install mine no less than 3 times after innocently attempting official installs and updates, besides rescued it with manual editing three other times after utterly unexpected side effects.

So we're left with bad choices that get worse with every release. Virtualization of OS/2 may be the only hope in the long run.

While I am not sure when I will be a able to wear that Linux geek "cap" would be partly because of the experience of installing OS/2 and Windows long before I attempted an Linux installation a few years ago (and I thought that I heard people say that it was because of the technicalities involved OS/2's installation that caused folks to turn to/to prefer Windows). Perhaps, there are reasons other than the ones we know why Windows is 90% Plus world market desktop share.

And, no ddan - "Virtualization of OS/2" may not necessarily be "the only hope in the long run" when certain issues just have to be addressed at the foundation level (Kernel, API...) Have you not taken note of the numerous iterations of Windows, Linux... any yet somethings cannot be gotten correctly - including the proposed OOXML Standards.  8)

Just perhaps; and, just perhaps the OS/2 World Foundation may be able lay the "foundation" for the future and compelling enhancements of OS/2 Operating System for it to run on modern hardware independent of any support from another Operating System; hence, the creation/establishment of a "Bounty System" by the OS/2 World Foundation; besides, words like "viruses" and "bloat" sound like rather scary scenarios. ;)

Kindest regards.

SAB
« Last Edit: 2008.08.08, 06:20:09 by saborion2 »

ModZilla

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
  • 2OS/OS2
    • View Profile
    • MZ's Blog_is IT still today? OS/2 Rules Dudes!
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #26 on: 2008.08.08, 18:34:32 »
here's a comercially nuetral link for ya all... http://www.os2warp.be/index2.php?name=feedbackusbsite .. VIZ.for hardware reporting...
Ok, steering_smearing, I am having a tough time keeping up with this posts' thread_ing, its like a finer and finer tipped needle which I have to jump through, to get the gist - I too am missing the point? -well I guess; I thought the steering was about just go somewhere like Mensys if you like OS/2, they are running the monkey and organ grinder show now not us, not IBM, and I thought all along we here on this Forum at least were kinda leaning toward a non profit kind of thing, open source or whatever, you can always make money if collaboration is non-cryptic, [open standards for HW/SW] as MS did it with open sourcing hardware, ??? ::) IBM did not take that track and therefore I believe that is why IBM lost out, although it was in their best interest to keep the PS/2 and its early OS/2 migration strategy " closed " for licensing purposes,  it was not in the best interest of MS to do that(follow a closed standard for hardware, which is why so many more devs partnered with MS for the purposes of making TwindoZe run with so many devices, furthermore are we talking home use or banks? I can not see open source for banking even though Imatix has done some of this, an open source OS/2 software package is probubly not going to happen unless we all demand it in the open market, when we do, and so very loudly-IBM will have to come around for fullfilling the needs of a market if its a BIG market; I cant gloat over no code, I can understand steering up to the limit of my dissatisfaction, buy a big machine and IBM will go out of their way to support your enterprize, buy a desktop, move to china...so OS/2 has to be patched when its sold old by todays device standard, Vista
has no fixpacks and can never be totally fixed, I still get the BSOD when I have to use it; esp with IE8; I was hoping for a simple_machine with a simple_OS someday supported by a developer community in tune with the needs of its following, visa vie "can u say Lnx" ...something that looked alot like my warp machine: NO hangs, no mysterious invalid memory over runs, no drivers to update all of the time and no darn expensive upgrades every other year that seem to carry on all the dead code from the past on with it and no more throwing out all my hardware every two years because some kuke says I have to...I love the Virtualization model aforemetioned, but as far as being a purist, following IBM not Linus, if you follow the money, as most do, I guess I am stuck with ECs, I hate giving money to MS continually becoming more disillusioned having done the migration toward a BalmerNirvana...meanwhile the [real] unanswered question remains with regard to the big fork in the road though vague as it seems...so where/what am I supposed to migrate to IBM?

Painful being a purist isnt it?
MZ
« Last Edit: 2008.08.08, 20:23:55 by ModZilla »
someday os2 will be ruled by the young and famous-at least in the open-source world!

saborion2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
    • Orion Resources International
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #27 on: 2008.08.08, 22:54:01 »
Hi ModZilla,

Re:


Ok, steering_smearing, I am having a tough time keeping up with this posts' thread_ing, its like a finer and finer tipped needle which I have to jump through, to get the gist - I too am missing the point? -well I guess; I thought the steering was about just go somewhere like Mensys if you like OS/2, they are running the monkey and organ grinder show now not us, not IBM, and I thought all along we here on this Forum at least were kinda leaning toward a non profit kind of thing, open source or whatever, you can always make money if collaboration is non-cryptic, [open standards for HW/SW] as MS did it with open sourcing hardware, ??? ::) IBM did not take that track and therefore I believe that is why IBM lost out, although it was in their best interest to keep the PS/2 and its early OS/2 migration strategy " closed " for licensing purposes,  it was not in the best interest of MS to do that(follow a closed standard for hardware, which is why so many more devs partnered with MS for the purposes of making TwindoZe run with so many devices, furthermore are we talking home use or banks? I can not see open source for banking even though Imatix has done so.....


I guess that this may be rather funny; but, here is a little story that came to mind after I read you post which ended with the words:

Quote
Painful being a purist isnt it?

the story that I am referring to is one that we all know only too well as little children growing up and that is - How many time do parents not warn their "off-springs" not to put their little fingers in an open flame. Well, we all who have had such experiences know how quick it is to learn and if "steering_smearing" is by any measure to be taken as a lesson... then the "banks" that headed in the "TwindoZe(s)" direction must have known something that the other children and their parents (OS/2 users) did know. And, as far as I can remember (getting it straight from the horses mouth) it was not a question of; re:
Quote
[open standards for HW/SW] as MS did it with open sourcing hardware,  ???  ::) IBM did not take that track and therefore I believe that is why IBM lost out, although it was in their best interest to keep the PS/2 and its early OS/2 migration strategy " closed " for licensing purposes,  it was not in the best interest of MS to do that(follow a closed standard for hardware, which is why so many more devs partnered with MS for the purposes of making TwindoZe run with so many devices
but, one in which "IBM" as reported in this study report
Quote
ignored all evidence to the contrary and killed OS/2 years before Windows NT, Microsoft's true competitive offering -- basically a clean room version of OS/2 -- could get to market.

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/rzwmqaFj6g0f93/Microsofts-New-OSS-Strategy-Whats-Cool-at-Computex-HTC-Touch-Trumps-iPhone.xhtml

this then certainly corroborates what that IBMer said about OS/2 needing very, very much (expensive) cleaning up after it was received from the Microsoft Corporation.

How about this picture of things (IBM's fingers getting burnt) back then.?

Perhaps; and, just perhaps the Open Document Format (ODF) Standards might be the "Golden Knight" that comes to rescue the banks (and home users) from being perpetually locked-in. And, the final result not being so "painful" after all only if the "Mensys" folks can deliver for the OS/2 eCS communities long before VOYAGER (or CASSINI) arrives. 8)

Furthermore, there is something called - "MINDSHARE"!

Kindest regards.

SAB
« Last Edit: 2008.08.09, 16:21:48 by saborion2 »

jep

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 421
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #28 on: 2008.08.11, 10:57:01 »
Hello,

quite off original topic, but...

Doug, I would have thought the fact ecs is os/2 , albeit with bells on, is enough to sell it - to make it worth buying in its own right.  The 'bells' are secondary to the operating system - os/2!  Without that operating system you have nothing.

Most users, like me doesn't have a software subscription with IBM, and haven't had one either as they only make business with other companies, bigger is better in their opinion, but also what cause IBM problems.

What make eCS so good is the fact (as often stated) that it contain fixes, improvements and applications something that most users can't get on their own. One doesn't have to look them up and buy them separately, install them from different media/locations etc.

Quote
I am not a marketing droid but an engineer.  As such I'm more interested in what the product can do, proven, and not the marketing spiel.
Yes wseb was expensive but it works and works well.  On the strength of what my computers can do I've converted a number of people to os/2 (legitimate copies from ebay).

Very good!
I'm an engineer too :-)

Quote
You will ask 'why not ecs?' to which I reply version 2 has been so long in coming, indeed its not here yet, and version 1 is apparently so little changed from standard os/2 mcp why not get the original os/2?

Because if you purchase OS/2 with the label eCS, you'll get the same stable product with some improvements IBM doesn't toss into it, but the most important part is that you support continued development of OS/2 under the name eCS. As mentioned, if you buy eCS, Mensys/SSI have influence, if you buy it from IBM, IBM won't care, they're only interested if you buy in 10 000...'s.

Quote
Your argument about buying ecs just for the 'enhancements' is only valid is you need a new licence.  I

Perhaps to some, but for me it's because I get more bang for the buck and the installation process is smooth. Warp 4, the only version I could buy, had to be patched to install on hardware introduced 1998 and later. :-(

eCS support (selected¹) modern hardware and it's getting better, something that would improve if more OS/2-only users would bite the sour apple and accept eCS as the replacement.


¹Eugene should mention that it's true that it work for selected hardware, and it's getting better and better. The intention that you should look through the list of supported hardware is though not what users in general want, so I can understand that you read his postings the way you do.

Eugene, please, we need to find another way for you to tell the English speaking world of the improvements done. Too many perceive (read and interpret) what you write as pure advertisement and therefore get annoyed, though you really just should/want to inform!

Quote
suspect there are a large number of people using os/2, like myself, who do not see the need to change their operating system for the same one just to get the enhancements.

Yes, quite a few don't want to "change" to eCS to extend the life of OS/2, the result is that our beloved OS won't get the updates it need. eCS 2.0 could probably otherwise be out somewhat sooner.

Quote
When version 2 of ecs arrives (I won't say if) I will point new users in that direction, much easier than waiting for a copy to turn up on ebay.  Note I said NEW users.  I am not getting into the micro$oft way of thinking - here is something new, dump your existing and get the new. That worked for m$ in the past though indications are that its not doing so well at the moment.

Yes, you're quite right, I don't like patching installations and the constant upgrades.
Upgrading existing OS/2 installations behave the same with eCS, it's OS/2, some new drivers has been added and problems corrected and are thus included.

Quote
IBM had the right idea in issuing fix packs, and slipping new features in that way, as well as software choice.  The fix packs have obviously finished but I am not convinced that a software choice style channel open to both os/2  and ecs is not a valid concept and would not upset IBM.

Software Choice has been a closed route for many individuals, at least as to what I've experienced, for many years now. You may be one of the few lucky ones that can use it though, but Mensys and some others provide more and more links and info collected in fewer pages that one had to look for at many different places before. That is a huge improvement to me, I don't have to spend a lot of time searching for excellent OS/2 specific native applications and enhancements such as DragText, AWGet, CTorrent etc.

____________
Let's improve OS/2-eCS, make use of text mode (VIO) applications to give us new features, but not reject improvements that follow the OS/2-eCS way, that is PM, SOM and the WPS to allow useful, pleasant and slick solutions for efficient use of our computers.

//Jan-Erik

ivan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
    • View Profile
Re: Hardware report ASAP
« Reply #29 on: 2008.08.11, 16:02:30 »
Hello Jan,

Quote
quite off original topic, but...   
Sorry about that...

Quote
Quote
Most users, like me doesn't have a software subscription with IBM, and haven't had one either as they only make business with other companies, bigger is better in their opinion, but also what cause IBM problems.   

I very much doubt that any small users have a software subscription now, I don't.  It would only be those very large businesses that have a service contract with IBM.
My getting software choice was a business decision only.

Quote 
Quote
What make eCS so good is the fact (as often stated) that it contain fixes, improvements and applications something that most users can't get on their own. One doesn't have to look them up and buy them separately, install them from different media/locations etc.   

Most of that is covered using updcd and os2mt.

Quote
Quote
Because if you purchase OS/2 with the label eCS, you'll get the same stable product with some improvements IBM doesn't toss into it, but the most important part is that you support continued development of OS/2 under the name eCS. As mentioned, if you buy eCS, Mensys/SSI have influence, if you buy it from IBM, IBM won't care, they're only interested if you buy in 10 000...'s.   

Are you saying we should buy ecs just because it's ecs?  Since Mensys/SSI do not have the source code and therefore are not able to change the base os/2 all you are left with are the 'enhancements' which I'm suggesting might be advantageously made available to a wider audience at a price.


Quote
Quote
Perhaps to some, but for me it's because I get more bang for the buck and the installation process is smooth. Warp 4, the only version I could buy, had to be patched to install on hardware introduced 1998 and later. :-(

eCS support (selected¹) modern hardware and it's getting better, something that would improve if more OS/2-only users would bite the sour apple and accept eCS as the replacement.


¹Eugene should mention that it's true that it work for selected hardware, and it's getting better and better. The intention that you should look through the list of supported hardware is though not what users in general want, so I can understand that you read his postings the way you do.

Eugene, please, we need to find another way for you to tell the English speaking world of the improvements done. Too many perceive (read and interpret) what you write as pure advertisement and therefore get annoyed, though you really just should/want to inform!   

I have never said I do not consider ecs as a replacement for os/2, just that I see no point in changing what works for the same thing.  That would be like a person moving from one house to an identical one just down the road because it has new paint.


Quote
Quote
Yes, quite a few don't want to "change" to eCS to extend the life of OS/2, the result is that our beloved OS won't get the updates it need. eCS 2.0 could probably otherwise be out somewhat sooner.   

Again why change what is working?  I have never been one that sees 'change for the sake of change' as a good thing.  Yes, some change is forced on us when something breaks and replacement parts are no longer available e.g. I replaced my mobile phone when it fell apart with a nokia 1600 because all I want it for is the ability to make and receive calls.

Quote
Quote
Software Choice has been a closed route for many individuals, at least as to what I've experienced, for many years now. You may be one of the few lucky ones that can use it though, but Mensys and some others provide more and more links and info collected in fewer pages that one had to look for at many different places before. That is a huge improvement to me, I don't have to spend a lot of time searching for excellent OS/2 specific native applications and enhancements such as DragText, AWGet, CTorrent etc. 

Why not look on the end of software choice as an opportunity.  Create something similar and offer all the addons and extensions the the whole os/2 / ecs community.  I am not saying it should be free, far from it.  A yearly fee with the option to renew, maybe reduced with the purchase of ecs, that I leave to the marketers.