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Censorship (was, before being hijacked: Re: 4.52 Convenience Pack CD's)

Started by ddan, 2008.10.20, 14:11:49

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ddan

Patrick: a review of your thread should be enough to demonstrate that the saborion2 program does nothing but entice you off-topic, will never supply you with even wrong advice. I'm sorry to be using your thread to elicit responses from it for my research, but as with any virus, it doesn't give a darn what nuisance it makes for we humans. So I ask and advise you to ignore it, and to also ignore my probing of it.

RobertM

Moderator Note:

saborion2's unrelated and/or nonsensical posts have been removed for the sake of our other forum members. To uncomplicate matters, replies to his unrelated posts have been removed as well (apologies to their authors). I will make an effort to remove any further such posts in a more speedy manner - in the meantime, please make that job easier by not responding to them.

Robert


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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ddan

RobertM: Thank you. The point is taken here. I just got fed up and decided to run him ragged as politely as I could manage, and without exactly whining to moderators, who I'm sure want to be NICE and keep giving one more chance. I don't in any degree complain about inaction, but when a thread I'm interested in is being clearly diverted to NO purpose, then I consider the action I took to be appropriate.

Ben

RobertM.

While I understand the social dynamics, I cannot say that I agree to any form of censorship, regardless of whether I, (or others), have been polled, (and there has been no poll), first or not.

It is the job of every human to read or passover, whatever he as an individual, sees fit. This is part of living.

Censorship is an intolerable violation of, and an insult to, my own basic sense of judgment and control. Both of which are working well and need no pre-filtering; thank-you, whether done by consensus or impulse.

Horrendous, repulsive, non-humane, NAZI, Feudalistic or debasing statements I have some reservations for, but censorship for what, to some, may be an irritation or annoyance must not happen.

I request that you put back whatever has been removed and refrain from such impulses.

I say again that I understand emotional reactions, and allow for a one time reaction.

One thing that people fail to understand, if one person can be censored because of someone else's particulars, then we all can be. That is to say, the loss of a right for one of us, is the loss of the right for all of us.

In a time when our rights are being bulldozed out from underneath us, the time for solidarity and tolerance, is upon us all.

kim

I've noticed that several complaints was done regarding several postings in this thread; but I haven't had the time to follow the thread and by that didn't read what ever managed to get people to report postings. Anyway, I fully support you opinion regarding censorship that that it has to be used carefully. But, if people starts to get personal and attack each other without objectivity; well then I feel that we might need to cool down debates and interact. I've seen forum where debate flames has slowly killed the joy of using the forum.

So once again, let us use this kind of action (censorship) wisely and only when needed to keep the joy and good spirit within the forum.

warpcafe

Dear Mr. Dragon, Sir,

as a German I am perhaps allowed to ask you:
If censorship would have cut down on Hitlers propaganda... and if that would have made him *not* take over the power in the 30s... would censorship still be "bad" ?

To put it that way:
A virus is a living creature. So if I take a medicine, am I a killer?

To put it that way:
Saborion2 is adding his unrelated crap to almost every thread he seem to be "suited".
There is not one - I repat: N_O_T _A_ _S_I_N_G_L_E ! ! ! - posting of him taht has somehow helped in resolving any question. In exchange, what he does is pissing off people and make them not use these forums any more because *we* (the "moderators") are to whimp to tell him to shut up.

The bottom line is that the majority of people are suffering from the actions of a single person.
This is what can be described best as egoism, perhaps as despotism even maybe fascism.
If you don't allow us to remove his crap for the benfits of others, he basically kills the principle of democracy. But talking about democracy and polls:

If we can't remove his crap because that would be censorship - why not simply make a poll regarding removing his user profile directly? Would that satisfy your need for poll? I would suggest we do a vote:

Shall Saborion2 be banned from using os/2world because he repeatedly misuses and hijacks threads?

Cheers,
Thomas

BTW: While we're chatting here on a philosophical basis, Mr. Saborion2 has yet hijacked 2 other (new) threads (yes, I checked it!) by submitting his useless unrelated bullshit there. God bless the freedom of speech.
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Ben

Quote from: warpcafe on 2008.10.21, 23:54:36
Dear Mr. Dragon, Sir,

warpcafe.

Trying to justify Censorship is something that one should be careful with at the least, and something that the wise would avoid altogether. For when you do so you pick at the supports of the roof over your very head. If it falls, it falls on you and those that you love that surround you.

However since the issue that I spoke to was Censorship, and since you have replied to me, personally, (rather than the membership as a whole), and since the harms of Censorship is no longer public knowledge, I'll take a moment to flesh it out.

But before you read on, it would benefit you to reread my post above... all of it.

Take the time to understand what I am saying there, (and what I do not say). It will be the foundation for what follows.

Exoterically, (meaning on the surface), Censorship appears as something that a new government or ruling body, be it municipal, state/provincial, or federal/national inflicts on its citizens revealing itself to be tyrannical.

(BTW, since it isn't common knowledge, you need to know that citizen is synonymous with slave. I kid you not. This fact is well known to those that rule us... and those that have put the effort into finding out. It is deemed by those above us that we "do not need to know" I disagree and my words shape my stance.)

People generally believe Censorship to be the harbinger, or forerunner, of a dictatorial body trying to creep into society. It never works this way.

The manifestation of Censorship is a key indicator that the Fascists have been in power for some time, for it takes a long while for the brew of Culture Change to ferment.

This is always handled by a government's "Department of Culture Control"...  every government of every nation has one though few give it a name that so obviously reflects its charter. Why does such a department exist?

If first knowledge of the existence such a department does not instill in you feelings of intrepidation, you need to ask yourself "what outside influence" has destroyed this most-essential instinct in you.

Two of the primary weapons used in the takeover of a peoples are never addressed in any history class, (or in the books used therein), of any publicly available educational institution;


  • 1) Economic Control
  • 2) Social Change

While it will be obvious to all that both of these are being used upon the public right now, the relevant one here is number 2).

One of the symptoms of the successful implementation of a desired, (by them, not by us), change in culture, is social degradation. One of the key symptoms of social degradation is the manifestation of Censorship... not by the ruling bodies, but forming at the grass roots.

It is commonly known among those that rule us, that the harder you try to force a social change on a peoples, the more that they resist. Such is the inevitable reaction to an obvious assault.

So any societal attack has to be insidious and that means that it has to come from the ground up, not the other way around. Here, openly stated, is the basis of my concern; the reason for my post. We, as a culture, have been hoodwinked. I am trying to undo the restraints.

Understand this.

Tell those that you care about.

Tell them to do the same.

The elite also know well that in order to change man's habits, (societal change), you have to physically change the environment that surrounds man. Then you wait for the brew to ferment. I have posted more on this in one of my previous posts here. Find it. Read it.

The most obvious of these changes was the invasive introduction of the radio into the very heart of man's sanctuary; his home.

Prior to its introduction, families and friends talked around the kitchen table discussing local, state and federal affairs, always with a careful eye to those that rule us, and knowing full well that they would dominate us in a blink, if we became lax.

We have long since disbanded our guard. The results are here today and obvious to all.

Radio destroyed these social talks and dismembered our governmental watchdogs the far-reaching results of we bath in, (socially), on this very day. TV followed radio, then games arcades->video games->computers->computer games->Internet, cell phones, et al.

There is no denying the powerful impact that these most unnatural, invasive, grotesque, physical generators of social change has had on our culture, the peoples within it, and the quality of our way of life; Degeneration.

We have traded off everything that we have of value, one crumb at a time, for shiny baubles of deception, and for minuscule, non-natural, increases in comfort... and this comfort is more perceived than real, and detrimental rather than beneficial, to both our physical and mental health.

In a time when a moral is a weighty bag full of old clothes, consideration a weakness, compassion, soft lobs of fat, and respect old wallpaper in a condemned building, love an esoteric concept that floats away like a good fart, smelling odd  now, but holding the reminiscences of a good meal, how can there be any doubt that our heads have been fucked with? If love stinks then you know where you have your nose... there you can find your head.

Every serious student of history recognize the hallmarks of the plan.

WE, good people, have been fattened for the kill.

You only have to stand back and observe someone watching television to see the trance-like state that it induces. It looks like a trance because the observed is in a trance. Talk to the observed. Does he respond right away? Or does it take a little while for him to snap out of it first? Just because we have all been in that trance and know it well, does not mean intimate familiarity ensures security. It indicates familiarity only.

And in this case, it also indicates total openness to outside, uncontrolled, unapproved, unfiltered influences, delivered to you by people who show ever sign of personal psychopathy. That means that they are psychopaths. Do not accept the TV definition. Find out the symptoms of psychopathy. Look them up on your own. You need to know this for certain. You need to be certain.

Or you can be a layman and lay down for the tank to roll over you if you want.

For you can never, henceforth, say you didn't see it coming. Though the limits of modern-man's power for self-deception, seems to know no bounds. Unfettered restrictions. Unmitigated indulgence.

"I have a shiny rock and marketing has made you want it. Give me all you own and I'll give it to you. No? OK. Then I'll give you five shiny rocks for your belt. Great!

Now these rocks are blue. VERY nice! Four for your car.

Seven of the red for a room in your house.


And on it goes.

Soon he owns everything that you own.

One crumb at a time.

No? Not you?

Who owns your car? The bank. Who owns your house? The bank. Do you own a credit card? Who owns the debt? The bank.

Now tell me that you are not owned. Tell me how you will pay when the impending economic bladder bursts and you are covered in piss? Tell me that, out of compassion, (there is none today remember?), that they will not come for payment... come for you. Now tell me again how it is that you, from amongst all the rest, have not been deceived. And tell me again, how such a thing cannot require massive, coordinated efforts.

Self-deception is the worst form of deception. Clarity of thought begins with the scratching off of the mold that covers your eyes.

All of my posts that have anything to do with society, social interaction, metaphorical public floggings, or censorship have been strictly limited to the bigger picture and will remain so. My past post laud my intent. And it is not one bred for self-gain.

However since there is an issue here and tension that needs to be relieved, let me introduce an unpaid, metaphorical prostitute which I snipped from a recent E-mail. This not something that I normally would do, but I think would be of benefit to all here.

Here it is;


QuoteThere are many means that one can use. Censorship is the last, and in this case, I do not find that it should be on the list at all.

Private means are available.

I think that you will find that most people are fully aware of their personal restrictions and if not robbed of his/her dignity, publicly or privately, would be willing to work on them to the benefit of themselves and of others.

Note: And Every Person Has these personal restrictions. Doubt it not.
(as A. Pike would say). For some it shows in up in one area, for others in another forum. (I use the word "forum" for its broadest definition).

Heavy-handed, self-gratifying, tactics should never be used. But in this age of bash-everything, the reactionary hammer is handy and "thought" is set on the curb with the trash.
(Understand that the one you bash with the hammer today, may tomorrow show the ability to prevent such a hammer from crashing down upon you. This is the way it works. Mutually beneficial, peaceful co-existence, for the benefit of all involved. Why is this no longer taught in the schools?)

"Thought" should be first, fine-tuned and polished.

Personal Messages work.

E-Mail works.

Guidance works

Guidelines work.

Assistance is OKAY.

Attacks benefit no one.

Disrespect benefits no one.

Animosity is degradation.

Degradation benefits our retainers.

Anything that pulls one of us down, pulls all of us down.

Why is this simple maxim so resistant to understanding, yet so benevolent, so necessary, to our well-being?

I say it again, our heads have been screwed with, on a MAJOR scale.

Denial is the pavement on their road to your enslavement.

Why would our rulers after uncountable centuries of being despotic, suddenly have become benevolent?
It's simple.

They haven't.

I continue...

Everybody does not have the same communications skills... some are particularly bad while others are particularly good while most lie in between.

Everyone has skills that shine.

Everyone has skills that are stunted; There are no exceptions.

Everyone is quick to condemn and abuse others in a day where the Double Standard rules.

Very few offer help, provide solutions, or measure others with a ruler equal to that in which they measure themselves.

Again I say that you have to understand that one skill suffers, so that another might shine, and that particular skill may be the one that stays the hand that would beat you tomorrow. This is the way of the world.

Moving the posts is a harsh measure, but preferable to Censorship.

Have other measures been tried?

Public humiliation for individual characteristics is simply Wrong.

Differences are not to be looked down upon, for we all quest for individuality, for who would want to be a clone? A rubber-stamped impression of he who stands next to you, unidentifiable from the masses? Known for nothing, but an incremental numerical increase? A change in the last digit on one' arm?


Human barcoding is returning. Stop it while you can. Cloning is coming. Stop it while you can.

It is of paramount importance that we learn to look after, and help, yes, help, each other, for over our shoulder something dark approaches... and we all know it, heads buried or not.

Each one of us has a skill that fills in a gap for another. Like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that can be assembled to form a wonderful species.

The assembly of this puzzle is the thing most hated, most feared, by those that rule us.

Spit in the eye of the elite; secure your own freedom; care for each other now. It is one and the same thing.

Know it. Burnt it into your brain. Call it forth through your own actions. Set us all free.



I have to add that if "Thought" fails, use "More Thought". While this may in reflex, sound flippant, this is not the intention of this writer.

Society has been redesigned to make "thought" obsolete and reactionary tactics "cool".

"Thinking" should always be your first and last actions and reactionary tactics the sole domain of hand-to-hand combat.

If we, as a species, have been conditioned to non-think, then you can bloody-well bet that there is one hell of a powerful, focused effort behind it, causing it.

And there is.

Also, I refer you to my previous post on a similar matter here. I suggest that you read it.

Keep in mind, that if you; do not read what I type, reword what I say, take things out of context, or pretend that I have written about something that I have not, for lack of reading my posts, or as a deliberate act,  then you can hardly expect me to take you seriously beyond this.

Now my points are clear and inclusive as well as conclusive.

My E-mail address is opened for all and everyone knows about Personal Messaging.

I have made a forum available for discussion on any topic only touched upon or needing clarification, in this or any other post I've made on social topics here, elsewhere, or on any related issue not yet mentioned.

Click on the link, sign up and post away. Be forewarned that the forum is not for game-players, but for adults with working minds, the "adult" part being noteworthy.

Understand, that if anyone chooses to be a layman, then I have to respect that choice and walk away.

To warpcafe I add that it is clear that this message, as all my socio-political lectures are, are directed to the whole, rather than to any individual. In my past posts I have made this clear; I do so again, here and now.

On a more personal note, this may well be the longest post, (all original text), made on this forum for which I should get another star next to my name.  :D



P.S. While I have chosen to end on a humorous note, understand the depth and seriousness of the things of which I write.


kim

Let me first say that I enjoy reading your input regarding censorship and let me also then say that the initial thread was about 4.52 Convenience Pack CD's. May I suggest that we break this discussion to new thread about censorship since I'm afraid that this thread will continue for a while more - which I encourage.

Controlling people by using censorship can quite often backfire and in that way I agree with you that it's better to keep a prudent dialog with the person. This has been tried out by several users and it has so far resulted in nothing. So if that didn't work out, what should we do next? Warn the user? Well, this hasn't really been done directly; but indirectly via numerous postings. Okey, we didn't say "Be Warned and Behave" and I doubt that it would make any difference. So, what should we try next - Ban the user? Hate to do that. So what we have done then is either to break out the postings to new threads or in worst case deleting post due to that they didn't make any sense.

As far as I see it; hijacking a thread is impudent to the original poster. Should original poster and started of a thread stand for that? For me that is bully mentality and on thje same time avoiding to answer the original question and, once again, hijacking the thread and spin off in another direction is rude and bad manner.

May I suggest that we have a simply rule that all of us should follow and it's quite simple; stick to the topic and answer the question.

warpcafe

Folks,

I really enjoy this discussion - although it's far OT... sorry ;)
And I would really much enjoy entering philosophical exchange regarding censorship. But:

While we're busy judging right from wrong and not-too-right from not-that-wrong, Mister
"it would be interesting to know how IBM, Serenity et.al. relates to the world finance breakdown and the OS/2 WorldFoundation as per ... re... <some URL>" (you know who I mean)
keeps hijacking threads as he pleases.

The question is not to follow a rule, because:
Those who follow it don't need the rule. Those who break the rule won't follow it by definition.
So, the question is:

Quote from: kimhav on 2008.10.22, 22:22:26
May I suggest that we have a simply rule that all of us should follow and it's quite simple; stick to the topic and answer the question.

...or else WHAT?
-> *THIS* is the actual question. ;)

And BTW: I have (and RobertM too IIRC) told Mr. Saborion2 very clearly (and matter-of-fact) that if he continues to do like he does, we will remove his submissions without further comments. More than once.
So, the talk is talked. Will we walk the walk?

Cheers
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

warpcafe

Hi all, short notice:
That was me (warpcafe) doing the "thread cleanup" by splitting and moving. I thought it was necessary to the benefit of Patrick et.al. who might be upset that *we* are now hijacking their thread. :)

...sorry for any inconvenience this caused to others.

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

kim

Quote from: warpcafe on 2008.10.22, 22:48:33...sorry for any inconvenience this caused to others.

Not at all, contrary it makes this thread even better, since we now got a thread about censorship and everything around that topic.

saborion2

Hi All,

Permit me to say how refreshing from a philosophical standpoint it was reading the posts from "Ben" (in particular) and those of the Moderators especially "kimhav" and other members of this forum; and, on the other hand how surprised and disappointing it was to see how a simple effort in at attempt to deduce, elicit... information and to provide alternate directions (understanding) can be misconstrued (deliberately perhaps, out of an "hidden agendas") to subvert the "messenger" and "the message" at all cost (by any means necessary).

Conscious as we all are (it is assumed) let us who may be quite familiar with two stories in American History reflect on: (1.) The story of the father who bought his son an axe and (2.) One who hardly told people what his strategies were during the run up to his Presidential run. In the first of these stories as is well recorded the youngster who was presented with the "axe" proceeded to cut down a cherry tree owned by the family and was honest to say when confronted that it was him that committed the act.

Yes, let us all provide bulldozers and harvesters to persons interested in wood and ethanol production in the Amazon Jungles and other forests around the world and (to take a leaf from an earlier poster - when the Oxygen will begin to be traded on the dark side of the moon) hopefully by then my grand children and their children will have found another habitable planet.

Secondly, reference is made to the words quoted from "FDR's First Inaugural Address" in which he said the following inter alia; "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days. (quoted Wrom: TCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBO

So, I would wish to encourage Moderators "warpcafe" and "RobertM" to use their "axes" that you have gotten as presents well because all the "cherry trees" (like the forests and information - the messenger's messages) are at your mercy; and, just like it is "today" as it was during the 1930's following the swearing in of "President Franklin D. Roosevelt" I wish to quote the following also; "More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment". And, yes Mr. "warpcafe" re: "it would be interesting (indeed) to know how IBM, Serenity et.al. relates to the world finance breakdown and the OS/2 WorldFoundation as per ... re... <some URL>" (you know who I mean) - SABORION2; re: (ERR Functionality) - (while some prefer to call this philosophical approach to things OS/2 - hijacking of threads - that simple; and, how sad!!!  :(

Thank goodness (for now) "DELETE FUNCTIONS" are not like "Timber Harvesters and Bulldozers"!

Enjoy.

SAB


ddan

WAIT a second. The offense here is NOT censorship by moderators, but HIJACKING by someone who makes no sense. -- Proof is right above.

Since I frequently wander off into rants, I'm plenty willing to skip past when others do the same. But I've spent time attempting to make sense of his rambling, and cannot. 

Ben, I'm your natural ally on most points, but this saborion2 character HAS NO POINTS. If he actually said something, I'd be almost pleased even now. So the principle you uphold is being squandered by someone to NO purpose, and it's him who is defeating you.

Suppose this problem multiplies, and saborion3 through saborion 13 are jumping on your posts, obscuring your efforts. What does free speech mean when drowned out by drivel? -- Are you going to waste your time supporting someone who SAYS NOTHING? -- If he's banned, just exactly what will be lost? Can you translate the above into any sense?

But I specifically do not wish to engage you, Ben, in any degree of confrontation. That for me is the most annoying side effect, except that he's LAUGHING at us both.

So, reluctantly, and I mean that, IF there is a vote, mine is BAN HIM.

PS: by strange coincidence, the saborion2 post managed to disappear my previous attempt by posting at same time.

IBManners

Hi All,

Personally I am against any type of censorship BUT with a Forum/bulliten board/website etc,
I would NOT call it censorship. The owners/maintainers of a service to a community are just
that, owners of that service, it is with their grace that we can use those services, and as the
owners/maintainers of that service it is their right to decide how that service can, and cannot
be used. I can decide what is done in my own home, think of this as their home.

It's like people complaining to me that their attempt to mirror 100Gb of my website that they have
ended up being blacklisted. um, excuse me, its is my website, and the same as my home, I get to
chose who can come in and do what. (There is also a $$ cost to me as I'm in Australia, we pay for
data upfront)

All forums have "rules of engagement", some are written, others can be taken as said, and then
you can also apply commonsense. The OS2 World forums are obviously about OS/2 and related
topics.

There are other, more appropriate outlets for some forms of communications and topics so
I don't have a problem with certain posts being removed from this forum.

People can feel free to setup their own website and forum for their own comments, and it then
becomes there responsibility :-)

Cheers
Ian Manners
I am the computer, it is me.

saborion2

Hmmmmm, One wonders how the below attached would be interpreted/addressed on/applied to this forum in the context of "Censorship"!  8)

RE:

Quote

Internet Freedom of Speech

Information wants to be free, and the Internet fosters freedom of speech on a global scale.

The Internet is a common area, a public space like any village square, except that it is the largest common area that has ever existed. Anything that anybody wishes to say can be heard by anyone else with access to the Internet, and this world-wide community is as large and diverse as humanity itself. Therefore, from a practical point of view, no one community's standards can govern the type of speech permissible on the Internet. In the words of John Barlow, a founding member of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) -- "In Cyberspace, the First Amendment is a local ordinance".

http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ip_speech.htm


Any comments on this anyone?