• Welcome to OS2World OLD-STATIC-BACKUP Forum.
 

News:

This is an old OS2World backup forum for reference only. IT IS READ ONLY!!!

If you need help with OS/2 - eComStation visit http://www.os2world.com/forum

Main Menu

The score thus far...

Started by ddan, 2008.10.28, 19:23:32

Previous topic - Next topic

ddan

The score thus far totally favors the TROLL saborion2 (give him props, peeps):

Sander: left for good.
Ben: delivered good rants about censorship but mistakenly in favor of the
troll who says NOTHING; perhaps estranged from warpcafe, and from ddan too.
Warpcafe: a self-declared WIMP, proven so by six months of inaction.
kimhav: closed a thread on censorship (!?). Also a proven long-time WIMP.
RobertM: long-winded but also empty threats; should be fired for stating his
job accurately and then NOT doing it.

Latest known casualty, ddan: in process of leaving.

Civilization cannot stand without reasonable people taking reasonable action
against those who deliberately flout conventions to the harm of others. To
jump to the end of this line of thought: I can't effectively fight the troll
alone. Unlike the moderators, I'm not making idle threats when possessing the
power to effect change: I've no such power, so my only choice was whether to
continue wasting time among WIMPS.

ddan

#1
It's belittling of course, to be forced to directly confront the moderators,
but it's now CLEAR that they ARE the problem. So, thanks to them, I'm now
harmed besides annoyed. I'm ranting only for the slight hope that I still
might stir you to action that'd benefit the community, but really am about to
leave; this isn't ultimatum, only explanation.

Will ANYONE state ONE contribution that saborion2 has made? WHY has he been
allowed to run wild here? It would be different if he actually said ANYTHING
with which one could disagree, or make sense of, but we don't get even that.

The moderators have stated the above numerous times, YET NO ACTION. So it's
become entirely their fault. Always the guardians are the central problem.

When regarding the demise of civilization, don't overlook what isn't produced.
By inaction in a clear case, moderators deprive us of unknown values, however
slight those might be. In my case, was going to write a how-to on repairing
LCD monitors, with high odds that anyone who could reliably grab the right end
of a soldering iron could save some money. That won't be written now. Why
bother to WORK on a potentially useful piece (that might draw google searches
here) when the moderators have decided that nonsense is equally valuable?

And in return you've gotten... ? ? ? ── Moderators, please tell us what value
you got from saborion2?

Saijin_Naib

I'd suggest you don't shove off quite yet, this community really can't stand to lose any more knowledgeable members.

warpcafe

Hey,

Quote from: ddan on 2008.10.28, 19:23:32
Warpcafe: a self-declared WIMP, proven so by six months of inaction.

Now, listen, sir:
- It is okay if *I* self-declare me a wimp.
- It does however not allow you -by any means, including frustration- to call me the same.

A wimp perhaps does nothing.
But only an asshole would have put his ego above others opinions and ban SAB on his very own decision!

What I did was searching for an agreement among the moderators whether or not we should close into an action... and which one (there is more than black and white regarding our means).

BTW: I wonder what you derived the "six months of inaction" from.
What I did so far was continually (and with increasing threat) telling SAB to think twice before submitting crap and also moving his threads off into OT sections. On various occasions and in various therads. I simply cannot go and erase someone because *I* think it's OK or because someone else thinks so, c'mon! I even followed the requests by "some" forum participants to take off postings by SAB (last time, RobertM was a little faster than me... wasn't that actually a request by you?).

Once someone TELLS me to do something, and it's something within a "reasonable" scope - I will do.
If noone out there appears to be annoyed and tells me, I will not go and delete postings even if they consist of nothing but crap. On the other hand - you might feel everyone feels the same and SAB needs to be banned. Man, have I got news for you then:
- If I would have done so, Mr. Ben Dragon would have killed me for "censorship".
Perhaps you would like to sort this out among you "non-wimp-non-moderators-but-only-ranters" first? Yeah: Ranting in my direction and calling me a wimp is a prove of true heroism! Wow! I'm impressed beyond belief!
So - why didn't *YOU* simply get your arse up, started a POLL regarding how MEMBERS feel about SAB and get back to us with a petition-like list? THAT would have put enough pressure on the moderators to speed up the ban. Instead, you insult me, do nothing, sit back and complain. This is cool.

Also, I'm trying to do this in my spare time (meaning: after work, wife, kids and pets) and not on a full-time basis so forgive me for coming in once a while only instead of real-time monitoring each users actions. Dammit. I'm starting to become really fed-up with that crap here: What the f...?
You want a moderator to go and throw someone out. Good.
What if next week someone else knocks on my door to ban **you**?
Would you *still* appreciate that no agreement/vote/consent process is in place and each moderator can simply click a link and -oops- there goes Mister ddan?

So think twice before you choose your wish, there's always also a curse in it. And if you keep ranting me off this way, I'll retire from moderator and all - making me the next casualty, but I'll be on YOUR list then, sir.

So - getting back to your question:
No moderator would tolerate actions like banning a user done by another moderator without seeking for a consent. What crappy egoism would that be? That would put us (down) to the same level like SAB who does not care about others when hijacking threads.
Be assured that *right now* actions are on their way. The thing is that we wait for all moderators to "vote" in order to have a majority. The real blame would be on os2world if we would ban SAB *without* such a process in place. That would certainly kill our own credibility. I would not want to be a moderator in such a forum any longer.

By the way: Ranting will definitely NOT help. I'm feeling actually disappointed by your wording. C'mon, what have I done to deserve being treated that way and what about the other moderators? We're trying to do our best in a way that is comfortbale for all members - we are not only concerned about YOU on one hand and SAB on the other - we're concerned about "the whole". We must.
You might feel "helpless" because you lack the means to do what SAB deserves. And you are disappointed because we (who have the means) are not using them. But let me tell you:
Thinking a gun would solve a problem is one thing. Poitning a gun at someone is something completely different (which the man without the gun will never understand). What I mean is: If you are given these means, you will have to carefully and wisely (hopefully rarely) use them.

I hope you will now understand why we "wimps" did not do something so far. And I really hope you will calm down, bear with us and decide to stay. If you don't want to - well, there's nothing we can do except feeling sad to have lost a productive, helpful and valuable contributor.

Regards,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

chennecke

#4
Well, I would like to add some thoughts gained from my own experience in taking part in online forums and seeing how long-term moderators responded to problems:

The problem is twofold. There is the troll, and there is the inexperience of the moderators.

A forum moderator is a kind of educational authority. If you state that if somebody continues his offensive behaviour he will have to face consequences and you don't actually take the measures when he does not honour your request, you won't be taken seriously and your authority will become void. It's like with pets and children.

Barring strong personal insults, forum users tend to not file a complain with the moderators but to leave silently or in a huff instead. Anyway, they are gone and the offender is still there, able to inflict further damage. Thus, to avoid harm being done by an offender, moderators cannot wait for a complaint to be filed offcially if they come across offensive behaviour. Harm includes any kind of invalidating the platform for the intended use, and that includes continous thread-hijacking and the like.

A policy for handling offenders needs to be agreed upon by the moderators when taking their job. That way, there's a lot less to discuss from the start and it reduces the need to hold a vote considerably. Usually, a vote shouldn't be required other than for the ultimate measure of an unlimited ban.

The voting issue is a point where I have to strongly disagree with Thomas. Exercising your rights as a moderator without consulting the others has nothing to do with "crappy egoism." As a moderator you need to have a certain faith in your fellow moderators in the first place. You have to believe that they will do their job correctly.
I can see two exception from that rule: One is when a new moderator joins the staff. If you don't know him well enough, you can place him under supervision for a certain time. If you don't trust him enough after that, you cannot let him join permanently. The other is dealing with the language barrier. Many fights are caused by misunderstandings, and moderators are not immune to that. So it's a good idea to ask the others if they do find statements offensive as well before taking any action. Now, if you feel that a fellow moderator is abusing his rights, that's a completely different pair of shoes.

Anyway, even if nobody asked for it, I'll give this advice:


  • To quote Theodore Roosevelt: "Walk softly and carry a big stick."
  • Walk the talk.
  • Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

Related to the moderation of a forum, this means:


  • If somebody breaks the rules, warn him. Since we are all humans, that stage is likely to happen to many of us once in a while. Also, somebody might not really be aware of the fact that he's breaking the rules.
  • If he does not honour the request, warn him a second time and place him under moderation if the forum software allows that, i.e., all posts by this person will have to be approved by a moderator until further notice. If he does behave, turn off moderated mode again.
  • If he deliberately continues to break the rules, ban him. Depending on what has happened and the person's reaction, you might consider placing a ban for a finite time only.


saborion2

Hmmmmm...... I found this to have been interesting reading and just in case anyone here is interested in reading it...

Quote[...Application of the term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".[11]

Frequently, someone who has been labelled a troll by a group may seek to redeem their reputation by discrediting their opponents, for example by claiming that other members of the group are closed-minded, conspirators, or trolls themselves.

Recently, many websites have openly welcomed and encouraged trolling amongst their members....]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


warpcafe

Saborion,

how f***ing stupid can one be??
You seem to be unable to shut the f... up even when the sword is at your throat? No - you can't resist in yet having your share again in a thread... it's un-be-lieve-ab-le ! You actually really deserve noting but being banned.

Thanks for making it THAT easy for me to decide (or - prove that my decision of some days ago was correct).
@moderators: What is the status of the "poll for the troll" - can we settle it now?

Regards,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

RobertM

#7
Hi saborion2,

You quoted:

QuoteFrequently, someone who has been labelled a troll by a group may seek to redeem their reputation by discrediting their opponents, for example by claiming that other members of the group are closed-minded, conspirators, or trolls themselves.

Or (in seeking to redeem their reputation) they claim everyone else knows nothing, or understands nothing, or does nothing (all while the troll keeps posting irrelevant, and usually senseless posts - using them as the basis for his claims against the rest).

QuoteRecently, many websites have openly welcomed and encouraged trolling amongst their members....]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Recently, and in the past, the OS/2World Forum Moderators, on their own, and at the behest of numerous forum members, have stated they do not encourage nor welcome trolls here.

So, with that said (errr... repeated), I do not understand where you were going with that post.

Or to but it more succinctly, I think Thomas dropped a big hint (which I think was a great follow-up to one of my earlier posts to you). Thus, to summarize, trolls are not welcome here. Nonsense and repeated off topic posts are not welcome. "Freedom of Speech" is not a right here - or even in the US - for a privately owned forum. Hijacking threads with repeated posts about nonsense or totally unrelated (and usually vague or plagiarized) content is not permitted either. Your grandmother's opinion as to what is relevant (as noted by you in an earlier post in a different thread) is also not relevant.

And sadly, your reply to Thomas' and my posts probably wont be relevant either (to the conversation at hand - or to our final decision).

Thanks,
Robert


|
|
Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
|
|