Author Topic: Status Update on eComstation II  (Read 5052 times)

Sigurd

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Status Update on eComstation II
« on: 2009.07.06, 18:41:38 »
Hi,

the original thread seems to be unreachable, even if I follow the given hint. Thorolf asked me to publish two mails he sent me because he can not register here anymore.

So, this comments are not from me, I just copy and paste the given text.

[Kim Haverblad: I've added link to the original thread]
« Last Edit: 2009.07.06, 19:32:16 by kimhav »

Sigurd

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Thorolfs reply to Christian and Thomas
« Reply #1 on: 2009.07.06, 18:42:27 »
Hi Thomas, hi Christian,


could you please stop discredit me in public forums?


I Know that Christian is being paid by Mensys to do press (and lobbying?),
so his "what do you want, everything is perfect"-position is
understandable, but I can't understand why others are not willing to read
the threads on OS2.org and stop bashing me just because I am criticizing
the past and current eCS development.


Did you have been in constant contact with Mensys over the last 8 month
and did you tried to get the eCS development back on any track?

Would you claim that Mensys has any working project management, or do you
realy think, as they do, that a project management is _not_ neccesary for
doing an eCS 2.0?

Would you say that the past and current development of eCS was successfull
and there is nothing to be changed?


Beside of Joachim, Roderick and Steven there are _only_ three people who
know anything about the current status of the eCS development and this are
Andreas, Jan and me - and belive me, what we know about it is even worse
than you ever can think about, it even can't be published in it's full
thruth :-(


For all others who are realy interested in the current status of the
development of eCS, there are two threads on OS2.org, unfortunately in
german and it is hard for me to translate them in english.

But _some_ translation, at least for undestanding what's going on, you
might get with http://translate.google.com/

Maybe Christian is willing to translate some of the posts too, his english
is _much_ better than mine and perhaps he finaly even would be able to
understand that there never where any bashing or agressivity comming from
us or from me, but on the contrary I have always tried to push the eCS
forward with constructive criticism.


To understand the current situation, the posts from Andreas, Jan and me
are important, but also the answers from Roderick an Joachim are
significant.


First thread is "ecomstation" from the 30.04.2009:
http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?list=121127

The answers from Roderick and Joachim are in english, some of our answers
too, so everybody might be able to read them!

The most important posts are:
http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=121167
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D121167&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=121255
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D121255&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=121274

The second thread is "30. Juni 2009" from 29.06.2009:
http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?list=122077

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=122090
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D122090%0D%0A&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=122118
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D122118&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=122122
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D122122&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=122167
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D122167&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1

http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=122173
DE -> EN:
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.os2.org%2Fforum%2Fdiskussion%2F%3Fid%3D122173&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1&swap=1


If Jan or I find any time, we will translate some of our posts to english
too, but actually I think it is wasted time, because nothing will change.


Bye,

Thorolf
« Last Edit: 2009.07.06, 18:52:59 by Sigurd »

Sigurd

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Thorolfs reply to Thomas II
« Reply #2 on: 2009.07.06, 18:46:34 »
To this message:

http://www.os2world.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,63/topic,1727.msg11729/#msg11729


Hi Thomas,

> I did not want to blame or insult anyone in person, certainly not
> Sigurd. Wink ...well, except for Thorolf perhaps, but that's another
> story related to WSE... anyway:
thanks for the flowers :-(

To make clear what he means, here is the public discussion about a side
note I wrote in the GenMAC-forum:

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.org.netlabs.genmac.user/

It began on the 24.05.09 with my post to Peter:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.netlabs.genmac.user/2332

And it ended the 24.05.09 with this post from Peter:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.netlabs.genmac.user/2334


And this is what Christian wrote on the 13.06.09 (three weeks later!) to
me: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.netlabs.genmac.user/2320/focus=2341

And the one from 13.06.09 from Thomas Klein:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.org.netlabs.genmac.user/2320/focus=2343


Even if my note was not that good, either you, nor Christian have any
right to bash me personaly and, by the way,  nobody would have taken any
notice from my post in the future any more!


Bye Thorolf

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #3 on: 2009.07.06, 21:23:52 »
Hello os/2 users!

The developers/users exchanged their opinion. I recommend don't spend time to conflicts.
Imagine that it's September 2009 now.. nobody will remember what was the problem and what are the results.

Better spend time to software development, writing reviews of software and positive interviews:
http://ecomstation.ru/community/?action=interviews

warpcafe

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #4 on: 2009.07.08, 18:08:02 »
Hi,

my first and most important intention was to get os2world.com OUT of that crap.
Unfortunately, it has hit here. My fault.

The reason why I "bashed" Thorolf has nothing to do with the eCS development.
I have a slightly different opinion on the functions/benefits from project management when it comes to (mostly) community-driven projects... and I also slightly agree with the criticism on Mensys.

Where I don't agree is when people start to "piss off" each others in public discussions beyond any fact-centred constructive information exchange. Since the people involved seem to be professional project managers, I will only mention the phrase "collaborative confrontation".

The reason why I "bashed" Thorolf is the fact that he told others not to come to Warpstock Europe this year because the location is bad. That's all.

I will not comment any more on this topic - everyone has shown his opinion and they are not macthing. OK.
Nothing to do about. I will not engage in "who's wrong, who's right" since that will not bring us everywhere.
Finally, I apologize for having given the impression that I wanted to insult someone. That is not the case.

You see - we can't afford to bash each others, there's only a few of us left. Perhaps this is the problem in our community: The few ones left are the ones with the most dedication, commitment and "passion" about OS/2 and eCS... and that is why the positions are so strong.

On the other hand, I don't want any one of the few remaining people to troll against achievements (be it from Mensys or the community or individuals) even if these achievements are not agreed as such.

Thank you. Bye.
No further participation of me in any of these threads.

Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

aschn

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #5 on: 2009.07.08, 20:16:09 »

The reason why I "bashed" Thorolf is the fact that he told others not to come to Warpstock Europe this year because the location is bad. That's all.


Thomas, that's not true: In fact Thorolf wrote that *he* won't come to WSE. Please read that thread again. And now let us leave this silly playground.

chennecke

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #6 on: 2009.07.08, 22:44:08 »
Andreas, please check your facts before jumping in. Thomas' statement is completely correct. From the genmac-user mailing list in a reply from Thorolf to Peter Weilbacher:

Quote
> I just didn't know that such native GenMac drivers exist.
Well, you should come more often to WSE :-) Not the one in Stralsund
this year, because nobody will travel to the end of the world, but the
one next year, that hopefully will be reachable a "little bit" better.

Anyone is free to check that via gmane.org.

As for Thorolf's statement that Sigurd forwarded:

So if you publically attack, you are only voicing your opinion, and if somebody tells you off for it and points out errors in your reasoning, he's discrediting you?  ??? Talk about a truly "warped" perspective.

As for the stuff regarding Warpstock Europe if anybody is interested he can check that out himself in the genmac-user list. I'm pretty confident that he, like others who have approached me privately, will come to the conclusion that the ones that have been discredited there were the Warpstock Europe event team, the Steering Group, and myself.

As for the discussion on OS2.org, well, I've been one of the four or five contributors to the list of items to be changed about eCS 2.0 and beyond that Jan and Thorolf assembled to hand over to Mensys. Plus I've voiced my own gripes in recent discussions about Panorama, Flash, Java, and OOo. Not to mention certain Newsletter editorials and discussions of the past. So much for the "everything is fine" attitude I'm accused of. Well, I am certainly not going to waste my time translating those threads. Given what happened here, I'd probably get accused of "adjusting" the content in my favor anyway. Actually, I do not intend to waste any more time with this nonsense at all.
« Last Edit: 2009.07.08, 22:53:14 by chennecke »

thorolf

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #7 on: 2009.07.09, 15:07:06 »
Hi Christian,

Quote from: chennecke
Thomas' statement is completely correct.
it is not, how can you or Thomas imply that I told anybody on the world that he should not come to the WSE?

I told him that it's not worth to come to Stralsund, because it is too far away for the majority of the members of the OS/2-Community. This was and is my opinion, period!

Quote from: chennecke
Anyone is free to check that via gmane.org.
Yes, this was the reason why I posted all the links for the thread about it.

Hopefully you (Christian and Thomas) will finally be aware, that it was your decision to spread this remark to the world and generated a useless discussion about it. And the reaction from your side against Peter and me was absolutely out of question, there are no excuses for it.

I have my opinion, you have yours, this should not be a problem, but personal bashing is a problem!

So I hope that this chapter of "missunderstanding" can finally be closed for ever!

Bye,

Thorolf

warpcafe

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #8 on: 2009.07.09, 20:41:05 »
First sentence:

how can you or Thomas imply that I told anybody on the world that he should not come to the WSE?

Next sentence:

I told him that it's not worth to come to Stralsund, because (...snip...)

No comment
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Triton

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #9 on: 2009.07.10, 01:02:45 »
Thomas & Christian & later @all,

Actually I should reply with not more than a 'no comment' either, but I'm sitting here shaking
my head and cannot overcome the strong urge to make a personal comment.

Even, if that discussion about free speech became more than ridiculous and embarrassing in
the meantime ...

... Are you really not able to differentiate between a personal opinion about 'something' which
is not worth for 'someone' and an appeal to one ore more receptors not to do something???
 
If someone would tell you, that all the advantages of OS/2 are not worth for him to make a
use of it considering all the disadvantages, would you accuse him to run a campaign against
your favourite OS? Be serious!

At the end of the day Thorolf is guilty for the most likely not very successful WSE this year,
he is guilty, that Mensys again broke their promised release-date for the last RC (June 19th)
without the slightest comment on it, he is the one who is responsible, that Mensys wasted
year by year dreaming instead of starting a controlled project and so on and so on ...

C'mon, wake up. Is that fair?

Wouldn't it be more fair to let the crowd know, that Christian, whoms professionalism I do
really appreciate under normal circumstances, is paid for his 'press work' and that therefore
is at least the possibility for a not to neutrality biased position?

I read a lot of threads here and hesitated to post anything, but some of the members of this
forum still seem to belief, that there was or is any progress in the eCS-development.

To make it clear, and the way of obfuscating the reality by Mensys and others makes it
necessary to quit the silence, there is NONE! It is bad, but it's still NONE!

Christian pointed out, that he is "not going to waste (his) time translating those threads".
If he is really a (the) 'neutral' part of the discussion and not trying to hide the reality, he better
should to proof that!
I can guarrantee, you'll be shocked about all the facts and details!

Courious characters able to read mostly german posts can open

http://www.os2.de/forum/diskussion/?list=121127
or
http://www.os2.de/forum/diskussion/?list=122077

for instance. It takes a while to read all that stuff, but it's far more efficient to spend time on the
truth once, than to waste year for year waiting for thing which will not happen!

Christian in deed took part of at least the last two months of our long and ongoing discussion
with Mensys and in the above mentioned forum. So, not only he should, he knows it better!

So please end drawing a picture which you know already never comes true and let the
community face the truth! There is and will be no eCS 2.0 even close to the planned outfit.
All what's coming is in fact an eCS 1.2r with an unfinished and not usable ACPI on top.

Is that really worth a new major release and is it what you'd call a progress or what you think the
community is waiting for?

In the case you take the time for a reply, please keep personal bashing out and name facts only!

Thank you in advance.

Triton

eirik

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #10 on: 2009.07.10, 01:14:16 »
Hi,

what many eCs users have been waiting for finally appears to be just around the corner.  This is not a time to fight over errors made in the past, but to be happy that eCs 1.2 soon has a good replacement.  That does not mean we should not learn from past mistakes (and wise choices) made, but keeping a civilized tone usually helps. Having said that, it is easy to understand the frustration among some of those who have worked much harder to make eCs 2.0 than I have (I am just a user).  However, without happy users, the future of eCs looks grim.

So, what does it take for eCs to be successful?  First, the 2.0 GA needs to work well.  With the extensive testing taking place, I think that looks promising.  Second, the JAVA issue is needs to be solved.  The likelihood of that happening depends on how well the GA works.  Third, an updated version of Flash is needed.  Again, that depends on how well users like the new GA.

I depend on my laptop (for the last four years a Thinkpad T43) for my job, and I have so far chosen to stay with eCs.  Why? Because it is more robust and reliable than any other alternative out there.  For example, its WiFi far surpasses the Win alternative in functionality and openness (thaks Willibald :-) ).  Admittedly, for some few applications I need to run Win in a virtual machine, but that is a cost I am willing to bear when I see the problems my colleagues using Win face. But eCs 1.2 is getting old, and my current system is quite patchy, implying that reliability and suitability to new hardware will become an issue.  Hence, I really welcome a new GA.

Then time will show if users like me made a wise decision or not.  Only the future will tell, and while waiting for the future we all need to make some calculated risks.

I wish the developers of eCS and adjoint software all the best!

Eirik

thorolf

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #11 on: 2009.07.10, 13:23:14 »
Hi Eirik,

sorry, but everything I can say to your post is: dream on!

You should have tried eCS 2.0rc6a before writing this to know what you can expect with a 2.0!

what many eCs users have been waiting for finally appears to be just around the corner.
I don't see anything "around the corner", the RC7pre was announced to be available "soon" 10 days ago, actualy it should have been ready for the 19th of june.

So, what does it take for eCs to be successful?  First, the 2.0 GA needs to work well.  With the extensive testing taking place, I think that looks promising.
Yes, it needs to work well, but it does not, may be it will be good enough as it was true for most RCs (at least for me).

I try to explain what you get with the 2.0:

You are ThinkPad T4x-user, so you have good luck, you get stable IBM APM with working power management and suspend/resume, a good SNAP-graphics-driver, a quite good working IBM USB- and PCCard-stack, a very good IBM mouse-driver, a fully compatible DANIS-driver, a mostly compatible GenMAC-driver and working audio based on ALSA. Did I mentioned that my T40 works mostly perfectly with eCS 1.2R and updated GenMAC?

If you have not a mostly compatible system like ThinkPads of the T40-series (that means Pentium M, APM support, SNAP compatible graphics) or an other well known OS/2 working system (Pentium 2/3/4/M, AMD Athlon, APM support, SNAP compatible graphics) you have not too much luck.
Most times you will be able to install eCS 2.0 on your system with ACPI, most times even SMP will work, but it is not always 100% stable, there is no power management (so the system get's very hot) and there is no suspend/resume (essential for notebook users).
You have to use the Panorama-graphics-driver that needs a lot of CPU load (SMP should work for that for acceptable performance) and does not support SDL, sometimes USB and/or PCCard might not work, sometimes there are even problems with the DANIS because of the AHCI-mode, often there is no network-support anymore, because the nics are not supported by GenMAC and sound might work.

In addition with eCS 2.0 you will get bootable JFS (not too much benefit in my opinion) some Samba-support (also available with NetDrive) and some updated applications like Firefox/Thunderbird 2.0 and Lucide but still with an outdated Java 1.4.2, problems with a not 100% stable WPS and big problems with the shared memory, especially with applications like Firefox/Thunderbird, OpenOffice and VirtualBox.

I depend on my laptop (for the last four years a Thinkpad T43) for my job, and I have so far chosen to stay with eCs.  Why? Because it is more robust and reliable than any other alternative out there.
Correct, my T40 and X32 also are best quality and work great with OS/2 (MCP2R) and eCS 1.2/2.0rc.

But for a project I needed a laptop with SMP and VT, so I bought a T60 two years ago and still today this is my working machine with several versions of eCS 2.0 beta/rc where I sit a lot of hours every day. And I tell you it is far away from being as stable as it was with my older systems! And I have to admit that with other systems like Linux, MacOS and even Windows XP the compatibility, stability and performance is better on this laptop :-(

For example, its WiFi far surpasses the Win alternative in functionality and openness (thaks Willibald :-) ). 
There will be (mostly) no more development in GenMAC, I'm not able to connect to every AP, sometimes I do not get an IP-address and there are sometimes problems with performance (f.ex. in my gigabit-network I only get 4 to 6 MB/s between Intel-cards, while I get up to 20 MB/s between Intel/Realtek) and we have not found any solution to solve this problem!

But eCs 1.2 is getting old, and my current system is quite patchy, implying that reliability and suitability to new hardware will become an issue.  Hence, I really welcome a new GA.
I would assume that 80% of eCS 2.0 are on the same level than eCS 1.2R, the desktop is mostly the same (personaly I like it, but it is far away from being "modern") and modern hardware is supported quite bad.

Not to much to welcome a 2.0 GA after 4 years of development ...


Bye Thorolf

warpcafe

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #12 on: 2009.07.10, 13:53:44 »
Hi,

okay Jan, so you want this to be around facts, yes?
I tell you a fact:

... Are you really not able to differentiate between a personal opinion about 'something' which
is not worth for 'someone' and an appeal to one ore more receptors not to do something???
Thorolf suggested to Peter not to go to Stralsund.
That equals not to go to WSE this year.
Fact.

If you and Thorolf continually try to explain that what he meant is not what he said, then why didn't he simply say what he meant?
What is embarrassing is not WHAT he did but HOW he is fightening to make us understand that what he said is not what was is written.
Moreover, people jump to the occasion and keep telling me "he didn't say what he said - are you stupid?"

If someone would tell you, that all the advantages of OS/2 are not worth for him to make a
use of it considering all the disadvantages, would you accuse him to run a campaign against
your favourite OS? Be serious!
Seriously: That is something different. Don't mix up topics here.
My involvement (before people came kicking my butt) was only the WSE story.

At the end of the day Thorolf is guilty for the most likely not very successful WSE this year,
No. If WSE is not successful then it's the responsibility of the organizers - but what I find intersting is that you express a personal viewpoint but missed on saying "IN MY MIND". The same as with Thorolf. The next thing that will happen is that you tell me "that is my personal opinion only, you jerk! Don't you get it?"

I get it. It's most likely not successful _IN YOUR OPINION_.
But the way you write it is irritating for others. It "looks like" a commonly known fact.

he is guilty, that Mensys again broke their promised release-date for the last RC (June 19th)
without the slightest comment on it, he is the one who is responsible, that Mensys wasted
year by year dreaming instead of starting a controlled project and so on and so on ...
C'mon, wake up. Is that fair?
Let me ask you this:
Let's assume you are a technical consultant for Hoover (not an employee).
They are about to create a new type of vacuum cleaner.
During the project they fail beyond believe, miss all deadlines and the product is ready for market 2 years later only.
You are fed up with Hoover because they never listened to your advice.
Now... you have two choices to express your opinion:
a) you stop working with them and whenever someone is asking you, you tell why
b) you stop working with them and put an advertisement in a newspaper to tell everyone how fed up you are and Hoover is a company of jerks.

Is b) fair?

Wouldn't it be more fair to let the crowd know, that Christian, whoms professionalism I do
really appreciate under normal circumstances, is paid for his 'press work' and that therefore
is at least the possibility for a not to neutrality biased position?
So the circumstances are not normal? What is not normal about the circumstances?
That _you_ are no longer behind eCS and/or Mensys? What is Christians share in this?

It would be fair to let the crowd know that is Christian is paid by Mensys, yes!
But then. why not let them know WHAT he is paid for instead of making such allusions:
- translating / editing Mensys press material
- translating / editing product manuals
- maintaining and relaunching web sites

He is not paid for letting people bash him to "defend Mensys".
He is not paid for trying to dig into cause-and-reaction analysis of peoples communications.
He is not paid for defending himself, his work and achievements and his opinions.
(Something you certainly appreciate: He gives his opinions for free...)

I read a lot of threads here and hesitated to post anything, but some of the members of this
forum still seem to belief, that there was or is any progress in the eCS-development.

AHHH, you did it again! Will you stop it, please?
Is that the reason why you signed up to os2world.com?
To get yet another place for your ANTI-whatever FUD-spreading trollism??
You have provided more than enough links to the intellectual diarrhea on os2.org. Let it be enough, please!

Damn, I was so glad and prayed the Lord that os2world.com was the last resort of happy people and objective criticism.
And now you German bores get in here to spread your FUDworks and spoil everything? THANK YOU.
The readers here will certainly appreciate to understand that Jan Lauer and Thorolf Godawa want to let the world know that Mensys is a company of imbeciles and that Thomas Klein is a dickless whimp and Christian Hennecke is a corrupt two-faced double agent of Mensys.

To make it clear, and the way of obfuscating the reality by Mensys and others makes it
necessary to quit the silence, there is NONE! It is bad, but it's still NONE!
Yeah, but people are either OK with it (because: what's new about it) or not.
What is all your fuss about? Why do you go everywhere to tell it?
We know there is no progress. We see it because of missing deadlines and not-working ACPI, etc.
Who asked you to run around and tell everyone who never asked for it?

Christian pointed out, that he is "not going to waste (his) time translating those threads".
If he is really a (the) 'neutral' part of the discussion and not trying to hide the reality, he better
should to proof that!
I can guarrantee, you'll be shocked about all the facts and details!
So you think Christian should spend hours and hours to translate YOUR opinions?
And by the way - I'm already shocked beyond belief by you. Thanks, don't need more.
The sad truth is:
Mensys and eCS are not THAT important to me.
I don't want to know what they are failing on, what they are doing, blabla.
That simply doesn't interest me. They give me a eCSC 2.0 or not, I don't care.
Even eCS is not important to me. It's fun to use it (although people like you are doing their best on spoiling it) but I am not FORCED to use it.
I can use Windows of any flavor, I can use Mac, Haiku, even Linux if I want.

Why are you so disappointed?
What is is that made you turn into what you are doing here?
I don't understand.

You are talking about truth:
... but it's far more efficient to spend time on the truth once, ...
...never comes true and let the community face the truth! ...
Regarding truth: WHAT is truth?
You are talking about _your_ perception of truth.
You again want to act as a missionary man and pull others onto your side by telling "what is the truth"?
And even if you are correct - so what?

If other people want to waste time and money despite all known facts... why don't you let them?
Don't you respect other peoples opinions?
It might not make sense for you to waste your time. Okay.
Why can't you accept that other people WANT to waste their time, regardless what you say?
Why can't you accept that Christian does NOT want to waste time on what you say?

...or what you think the community is waiting for?
well, tell me. It seems you know everything.
My best guess is: The community wants to have you and me stop wasting their time and get back to solve issues.
(just guessing - I might be wrong)

In the case you take the time for a reply, please keep personal bashing out and name facts only!
Triton

You want a fact? Here is one:
Although my nickname is "warpcafe" I always sign my posts as Thomas.
You are engaging in this discussion as "Triton", my dear Jan.
Now what does is THIS fact tell you?

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Triton

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #13 on: 2009.07.10, 17:44:17 »
(due to the fact, that the forum was unreachable via the direct links and it took
me a moment to figure out how to be able to post, written externally and quoted
in the classical way)


Thomas,

Your reply has been far beyond any acceptance in form, attitude and intention!
I do not criticize that you have a different understanding of what this all is about,
but, let's face it: You've completely forgotten yourself.
Any apologize accepted via PM!


To your post (mainly short, cause I'm more than stuffed - nevertheless it deserves a reply):

> okay Jan, so you want this to be around facts, yes?
Nothing but that!

> Thorolf suggested to Peter not to go to Stralsund.
> That equals not to go to WSE this year.
> Fact.
Correct, that's what he was recommending, judged from _his_ perspective.
1. It was and is his own opinion which he does not have to reconcile with whomever.
   We live in a free country and as you have the right to go there and let everyone
   know about it, there is no reason to draw the same civil right from him.
2. He spoke to Peter only and did not make any appeal to others! Where the heck is
   the problem? Are you asking for censoring personal opinions?
If you wouldn't have brought it up again weeks after his post, nobody would have cared
about that side note any more. It seems to be more than obvious, that your reaction is
caused by being thin-skinned knowing that it is not a wise decision choosing this location
in such a critical moment for the whole project.

> If you and Thorolf continually try to explain that what he meant is not what he said, then why didn't he
> simply say what he meant?
Here we come to the point. No one tries to explain, that he did not mean what he said.
It's rather only about the irritating situation, that you don't seem to understand what he
really said - and only about that!
No offense, but do yourself a favour and read again carefully.

> > If someone would tell you, that all the advantages of OS/2 are not worth for him to make a
> > use of it considering all the disadvantages, would you accuse him to run a campaign against
> > your favourite OS? Be serious!
> Seriously: That is something different. Don't mix up topics here.
I have no idea what makes you believe, that this is an invalid anology!?

> My involvement (before people came kicking my butt) was only the WSE story.
Did I miss that butt point?

> > At the end of the day Thorolf is guilty for the most likely not very successful WSE this year,
> No. If WSE is not successful then it's the responsibility of the organizers
I have the strong hope, that you and others will remind yourself to that statement.

> - but what I find intersting is that you express a personal viewpoint but missed on saying "IN MY MIND".
What do you think is the message of posts in a forum? Are not all postings express
personal opinions? Don't you think everyone knows that or do you always create
an official preamble for all your posts expressing, that all of the following is just
'your two cent'?
If you would have read the threads on os2.org, you'd surprisingly figure out, that
in fact I really opened my posts with exactly such a preamble. Did you really ever
read them???
Thomas, as I initially was begging for - we should try to stick with facts!

> The same as with Thorolf. The next thing that will happen is that you tell me "that is my personal
> opinion only, you jerk! Don't you get it?"
Did you read my post (again)? You'd better do so!
Have I been offending like you? Did I allow myself to personally and unsubstantially
bash someone? I don't think so. If so, please point it out and I'll try to find the right
words to show education.

> But the way you write it is irritating for others. It "looks like" a commonly known fact.
Up to now, I do not see anyone irritated by my (one) post! And are facts not allowed to
be commonly known? If you think I'm wrong, I'm awaiting a detailed refutation.
Irritiating is the information practice by Mensys and some other sources. Or is there any
other explanation for a post like the one from 'eirik' and others expecting with eCS 2.0 GA
something which is far beyond any reality? If we all would have publicly talked about
what are the facts in the eComStation-project, nobody would still dream about what they
still seem to be dreaming of.
If anyone wants to, I don't have any objectives. The same with any religion, political party,
sports club or whatsoever.
And if it makes you happy to believe in praying for pink clouds - feel free to do so!

> > he is guilty, that Mensys again broke their promised release-date for the last RC (June 19th)
> > without the slightest comment on it, he is the one who is responsible, that Mensys wasted
> > year by year dreaming instead of starting a controlled project and so on and so on ...
> > C'mon, wake up. Is that fair?
> Let me ask you this:
> Let's assume you are a technical consultant for Hoover (not an employee).
> They are about to create a new type of vacuum cleaner.
> During the project they fail beyond believe, miss all deadlines and the product is ready for market 2
> years later only.
> You are fed up with Hoover because they never listened to your advice.
> Now... you have two choices to express your opinion:
> a) you stop working with them and whenever someone is asking you, you tell why
> b) you stop working with them and put an advertisement in a newspaper to tell everyone how fed up you > are and Hoover is a company of jerks.
>
> Is b) fair?
First, I've never been either a Mensys employee nor a (paid) Mensys consultant.
Therefore my judgement is clear of any external influence. So your example does
not meet the situation.
Second, I never put up anything even close to any advertisement in a newspaper.
All I was trying is to have a constructive communication with Mensys, which we
really had for years, and to enrich the final status of the eComStation-project with
the results of a survey started in a web-forum. Is that a bad intention?
And do you also accuse someone testing a product or investigating a company from
a more positive than neutral point of view and coming up with a result the company
might not like? Facts, Thomas, facts! That's all that matters! Where are they?
I answered all posts at os2.de precisely point for point, step by step.
You're free to take these posts and make public what details in my position were wrong!

> > Wouldn't it be more fair to let the crowd know, that Christian, whoms professionalism I do
> > really appreciate under normal circumstances, is paid for his 'press work' and that therefore
> > is at least the possibility for a not to neutrality biased position?
> So the circumstances are not normal?
Read your former postings and judge yourself. Do they show any mature unbiased
and open minded orientation?

> That _you_ are no longer behind eCS and/or Mensys? What is Christians share in this?
I feel deep pain to come up with a comparison like that, but all of a sudden you're attitude
reminds me to someone from redmond expressing "if you are not with us, you are against
us". All under the banner 'jihad'. I think, there is no need to elaborate ...
Christian has nothing to do with this. All I allowed myself to ask is, is there any prejudice?

> It would be fair to let the crowd know that is Christian is paid by Mensys, yes!
Fine, first accordance.

> But then. why not let them know WHAT he is paid for instead of making such allusions:
> - translating / editing Mensys press material
> - translating / editing product manuals
> - maintaining and relaunching web sites
And for all the quoted jobs he is absolutely the right person.
This is the reason, why I expressed how much I appreciate the quality of his work.

> He is not paid for letting people bash him to "defend Mensys".
> He is not paid for trying to dig into cause-and-reaction analysis of peoples communications.
> He is not paid for defending himself, his work and achievements and his opinions.
Please be so kind to keep up with naming facts and quote me, where I said so!

> (Something you certainly appreciate: He gives his opinions for free...)
So do I and everybody else here. Correct me, if wrong!

> > I read a lot of threads here and hesitated to post anything, but some of the members of this
> > forum still seem to belief, that there was or is any progress in the eCS-development.
> AHHH, you did it again! Will you stop it, please?
Other than you, I just point out facts. Read the posts in this forum, they might
enlighten you.

> Is that the reason why you signed up to os2world.com?
Actually another sign for not reading/understanding my post. YOU are the reason
to sign up here. AND, I simply don't think that we should longer disguise the reality.

> To get yet another place for your ANTI-whatever FUD-spreading trollism??
Thomas, it costs me a lot to tolerate your stubborn repeated, fact-free anti-information-
policy. But there might be some others, being interested in what really happens ...

> You have provided more than enough links to the intellectual diarrhea on os2.org. Let it
> be enough, please!
Goto paragraph one and read carefully again! I am not the target for your imbalanced
manners and absolutely inadequate behaviour and I won't be!

> Damn, I was so glad and prayed the Lord that os2world.com was the last resort of happy
> people and objective criticism.
Are you able to name a fact in any journalistic 'best practise' about surpressing information
in a free world?

> And now you German bores get in here to spread your FUDworks and spoil everything? THANK YOU.
Sorry for interrupting your dreams. We are not responsible for the fact, that you either
don't want to see the truth or you don't like it. And btw, we are also not created it, there are
others doing so pretty successfully.
We are just as disappointed as others about the outcome of such an attractive project and not
willing to follow a deadly track like lemmings.

> The readers here will certainly appreciate to understand that Jan Lauer and Thorolf Godawa want to
> let the world know that Mensys is a company of imbeciles and that Thomas Klein is a dickless whimp and > Christian Hennecke is a corrupt two-faced double agent of Mensys.
The more I read your post, the more I get convinced, that this is not the Thomas Klein I know
of. This Thomas was a respectable person far away from a childish and immature appearance
we can see here. It's a pity!
In some kind of prevision I was asking you for no personal bashing and facts only. Unfortunately
you seem to judge over posts you didn't read or didn't understand - or both.
Or you ignore hints like that like your own posts e.g. here:
=> > Thank you. Bye.
=> > No further participation of me in any of these threads.

> > To make it clear, and the way of obfuscating the reality by Mensys and others makes it
> > necessary to quit the silence, there is NONE! It is bad, but it's still NONE!
> Yeah, but people are either OK with it (because: what's new about it) or not.
> What is all your fuss about? Why do you go everywhere to tell it?
> We know there is no progress. We see it because of missing deadlines and not-working ACPI, etc.
> Who asked you to run around and tell everyone who never asked for it?
1. That is ok with me too.
2. I posted in os2.org and here. Is that everywhere?
3. See above, obviously the majority doesn't know!
4. Also see above, you made me posting here. No one else ...

> > Christian pointed out, that he is "not going to waste (his) time translating those threads".
> > If he is really a (the) 'neutral' part of the discussion and not trying to hide the reality, he better
> > should to proof that!
> > I can guarrantee, you'll be shocked about all the facts and details!
> So you think Christian should spend hours and hours to translate YOUR opinions?
Completely new to me, that I was asking for that. The vast majority of the posts
there are not mine. Are you afraid they might express what I felt free not to disguise
any longer?

> And by the way - I'm already shocked beyond belief by you. Thanks, don't need more.
So you finally admit that you didn't read these threads. How can you dare to claim
any judgement over them then?

> The sad truth is:
> Mensys and eCS are not THAT important to me.
No problem with that.

> I don't want to know what they are failing on, what they are doing, blabla.
> That simply doesn't interest me. They give me a eCSC 2.0 or not, I don't care.
But it is (was) my interest and I did care (a lot). And BTW, just as an additional
information for you - most of the readers here care, because they are waiting
for a system reliable enough getting their work done with.

> Even eCS is not important to me. It's fun to use it
Your luck. There are some strange people out there trying to work with it ...

> (although people like you are doing their best on spoiling it)
When you like McDonalds and I don't, does this influence your appetite? If so,
you're strongly suggested not to look for a problem in your periphery.

> but I am not FORCED to use it.
Exactly. Free choice, free speech! Second accordance?

> I can use Windows of any flavor, I can use Mac, Haiku, even Linux if I want.
Obviously less ambitious than me ...

> Why are you so disappointed?
> What is is that made you turn into what you are doing here?
> I don't understand.
I politely refer to the official announcement of Serenity Systems about eCS 2.0 dated
November 5th 2005 and later and compare that to the status quo as of July 10th 2009
and you will understand!

> You are talking about truth:
> > ... but it's far more efficient to spend time on the truth once, ...
> > ...never comes true and let the community face the truth! ...
> Regarding truth: WHAT is truth?
I am calling after being honest to the user-base, not more.

> You are talking about _your_ perception of truth.
Facts are not _my perception_ of truth, that's why they're called facts and not belief.

> You again want to act as a missionary man and pull others onto your side by telling "what is the truth"?
> And even if you are correct - so what?
The last intention I have with writing the few posts I created is to evangelize someone,
but you gave a deep impression of how your inner belief seem to be unsettled and
doubtful if someone dares to stick the head out of the 'controlled' masses.
Maybe it helps to remind you to your own signature in this forum ...
 
> If other people want to waste time and money despite all known facts... why don't you let them?
I do, but the facts were not known. If so, what is different now and what are you complaining
about?

> Don't you respect other peoples opinions?
I do. Do you?

> It might not make sense for you to waste your time. Okay.
Correct. Not any more!

> Why can't you accept that other people WANT to waste their time, regardless what you say?
Not the slightest problem with that. People always do that, everyday. From your perspective,
from anyone elses and from mine.

> Why can't you accept that Christian does NOT want to waste time on what you say?
I do. He is free to do whatever he wants.

> > ...or what you think the community is waiting for?
> well, tell me. It seems you know everything.
At least I'm reading the threads I'm talking about afterwards. There is a list of the things
the community is waiting for, created by that community and proper layouted for your
convenience.

> My best guess is: The community wants to have you and me stop wasting their time and get
> back to solve issues. (just guessing - I might be wrong)
Yes, get back to solve issues. Best in collaboration with the project-owners. Have fun!

> > In the case you take the time for a reply, please keep personal bashing out and name facts only!
> > Triton
> You want a fact? Here is one:
> Although my nickname is "warpcafe" I always sign my posts as Thomas.
> You are engaging in this discussion as "Triton", my dear Jan.
> Now what does is THIS fact tell you?
It tells me, embarrassing enough for you, that you did not even make the attempt to think about why.

If my intention would have been to hide who's posting, would I really have written with
all the information about who is writing. Would I really have left my name registering here etc.?

Thomas, again, your post was a very unpleasant provocation with the only intention to
discredit me personally and disregarding that before I was asking for not to go down on this
level.
On the other hand your post lacks any fact, even one, that anything I've been writing in my
single post does not meet the way it is.

In fact I don't understand your reaction at all and if you'd like to return with any answer I
repeat it here again in clear words: F a c t s   o n l y   -   n o   p e r s o n a l   b a s h i n g ! ! !

Triton

RobertM

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Re: Status Update on eComstation II
« Reply #14 on: 2009.07.11, 09:54:52 »
How about we stop this right here and now? I kinda remember this topic being "Status Update on eComstation II"

Really... maybe this is time to take this conversation private or to a different thread. Just a suggestion.

Best,
Rob
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