Author Topic: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!  (Read 8665 times)

Pete

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #15 on: 2009.09.01, 15:01:19 »
Hi Thomas

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Yeah, exactly: They should keep in mind that they want feedback from as much people as possible. And not everyone on earth was raised with Assembler as native language or understands dump files of a multicore machine's memory... So they MUST come up with a noob-proof, easy way of doing so. Why not click 1 program icon that will trigger logs collection and sysinfo etc. and zip the crap or even send it back to them immediately if a connection is available? That's the way to go.
Dumping a trunkload of inconsistent and undocumented (or with hard-to-lookup info) executables onto the user and later complain that noone is using it might not be the best approach...
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The acpi guys did that with a CollectLogs package.

It worked for a few of the acpi test builds but does not seem to work for the current builds - my last few reports all have a response that the acpica.log is missing.

It is probably a case of I have stuck some new files in recent packages in the wrong place - due to lack of documentation.

I have pointed this out several times when responding to the missing log comment but it looks like providing relevant documentation is not on the agenda as I have had no response to that idea and we have had several test builds since my first "Where do these files go?" post.

Guess I could do the same as other people and simply not bother to test later acpi builds.

However: If we all follow that line then I guess when the acpi developers get no response to test builds they will surmise that all works properly rather than no-one is testing...


I do suspect that acpi development is a much bigger job than was first thought and that those performing this development need a few more capable people in their team; I do seem to recall a brief ng post from them asking for other developers to get in touch.

I would offer my limited services but suspect that they are looking for capable "c" designers/coders rather than someone who dabbles a little in a Pascal variant (WDSibyl) and short rexx scripts - I think I last used "c" in anger when passing a "c" programming course in 1993...

I think we can only hope that the acpi guys do get a few more capable people involved and thus speed up development of the acpi driver package.


Regards

Pete

warpcafe

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #16 on: 2009.09.01, 16:18:12 »
Hi Pete,

However: If we all follow that line then I guess when the acpi developers get no response to test builds they will surmise that all works properly rather than no-one is testing...

Exactly!

I think we can only hope that the acpi guys do get a few more capable people involved and thus speed up development of the acpi driver package.

I don't even think they need more developers. What they need is a "lab team" that collects detailed information about why a specific chipset perhaps works while another doesn't. If they need a developer for this, ok, let it be more developers.
I am afraid that at the moment, there is 1 guy sitting far away from Mensys and is being paid to "do ACPI". The problem is that if this is true, most of his work is... guesswork. I don't think he has a dozen multicore machines and two dozen of laptops sitting in his living room and waiting to be tested.

But then again, as we have already pointed out - only THEY know what information THEY need to investigate a chipset/mainboard. So either they sit down and create somehting for dummies like us or there will be no change. Even with 12 developers - where is the difference if you don't have the testbed allowing a good coverage of hardware? If it was about porting linux stuff, then 1 developer would have been sufficient (looking at the time consumned til now).
I even tend to believe that an ACPI "driver" is something where the less people involved, the better. :)

Talking about "reference machines" unfortunately is a waste of time as well, at least when it comes to ACPI. Todays "contemporary, top-notch" reference system will be outdated in about two weeks and we'll see the next non-compatible ACPI implementation coming up in the stores. Heck, it might even happen to you to buy the same parts and they don't work because in the meanwhile, the board manufacturer changed the revision in order to use chips that would save him 0.1 cents a piece.

What is the bottom line?
ACPI will never be finished, since there will always be new boards coming up. We might see the effort decrease once a stable code base is established, but don't expect them to deliver "the ACPI driver". I admit that they perhaps weren't THAT lucky in preserving previously successful codes thru more than 1 release, but that also shows how difficult that whole thing is.

Perhaps it would make sense to not write a "1-code-fits-all" driver, but rather have a couple of "specialized" ACPI drivers that differ in what chipset they're "tuned" to. Not sure if there is a drawback with that idea. (Heck, not even sure if there is an advantage with it :) ).

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Sigurd

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #17 on: 2009.09.01, 17:07:59 »
Hi,

as a speaker at warpstock Europe I am able to gain some money there that I invested in RC7.

my feedback:

My netbook, ASUS 1008HA, working with eCS 2 RC6a (despite of having no network :-(   ) very good.

- Tried to "upgrade" the RC6a - total fail, system crashed, even the paralell installed XP can not be started anymore

- formatted RC6a, started with RC7 from scratch
- despite of still no network (as expected, that did not suprise me) installation went through
- First boot: ACPI 3.17 failed after a while , crash, TRAP 0000, same happened several times, downgraded to 3.14 (tried all the switches I ever used)
- Sound: can not change loudness (fine with 6a) , even using older uniauds did not work
- DOS/WIN : both start (window/fullscreen) but can not use mouse or keyborad, after a short time: crash - not usable anymore (worked with 6a)

For "my" netbook this is a step backwards. It is a pitty. I will give it a try in Virtual PC/Virtualbox to see where this will take me.

The result is sad but true for me. I have now more problems than before.

Sigurd



chennecke

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #18 on: 2009.09.01, 17:18:02 »
Hi,

as a speaker at warpstock Europe I am able to gain some money there that I invested in RC7.

my feedback:

My netbook, ASUS 1008HA, working with eCS 2 RC6a (despite of having no network :-(   ) very good.

- Tried to "upgrade" the RC6a - total fail, system crashed, even the paralell installed XP can not be started anymore

- formatted RC6a, started with RC7 from scratch
- despite of still no network (as expected, that did not suprise me) installation went through
- First boot: ACPI 3.17 failed after a while , crash, TRAP 0000, same happened several times, downgraded to 3.14 (tried all the switches I ever used)
- Sound: can not change loudness (fine with 6a) , even using older uniauds did not work
- DOS/WIN : both start (window/fullscreen) but can not use mouse or keyborad, after a short time: crash - not usable anymore (worked with 6a)

For "my" netbook this is a step backwards. It is a pitty. I will give it a try in Virtual PC/Virtualbox to see where this will take me.

The result is sad but true for me. I have now more problems than before.

Sigurd

Well, for your feedback to be feedback it would certainly be placed better in the netlabs.org ACPI tracker than here.

DougB

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #19 on: 2009.09.01, 18:06:10 »
Quote
- DOS/WIN : both start (window/fullscreen) but can not use mouse or keyborad, after a short time: crash - not usable anymore (worked with 6a)

This was reported. Apparently, the problem is, that the line:
DEVICE=C:\OS2\MDOS\VMOUSE.SYS
is missing from CONFIG.SYS, but there is more to it, since it also seems that the DOS or WIN settings labels are messed up, so you need to be very careful is you change anything in there.

StefanZ

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #20 on: 2009.09.01, 20:09:44 »

Quote
warpcafe Today at 14:19:38
two thumbs up!
This is by far the best and most professional summary I've read so far.

Do I read a bit of irony here? :)

Yes, it is not the best and most informative "review" in the world.  ;D

Sigurd

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #21 on: 2009.09.01, 21:12:34 »
Hi,

as a speaker at warpstock Europe I am able to gain some money there that I invested in RC7.

my feedback:

My netbook, ASUS 1008HA, working with eCS 2 RC6a (despite of having no network :-(   ) very good.

- Tried to "upgrade" the RC6a - total fail, system crashed, even the paralell installed XP can not be started anymore

- formatted RC6a, started with RC7 from scratch
- despite of still no network (as expected, that did not suprise me) installation went through
- First boot: ACPI 3.17 failed after a while , crash, TRAP 0000, same happened several times, downgraded to 3.14 (tried all the switches I ever used)
- Sound: can not change loudness (fine with 6a) , even using older uniauds did not work
- DOS/WIN : both start (window/fullscreen) but can not use mouse or keyborad, after a short time: crash - not usable anymore (worked with 6a)

For "my" netbook this is a step backwards. It is a pitty. I will give it a try in Virtual PC/Virtualbox to see where this will take me.

The result is sad but true for me. I have now more problems than before.

Sigurd

Well, for your feedback to be feedback it would certainly be placed better in the netlabs.org ACPI tracker than here.

Hi Christian,

thanks for letting me know or teaching me the meaning of the word: feedback, so that I will not forget how limited my english is.

I always reported logs in the past to the developers (i.e.: ASUS EEE 701, Medion Akoya 1210E, Lenovo SL300 - by the way: you will find them all at the hardware base of ecomstation.ru as well, as well as in the hardware forum here, on youtube and so on). But here, as I worte:

- No Network working with eComStaition
- WinXP that I might use is destroyed by eCS on that machine as well

So - actual no way to sent. I will try to save them on an USB Stick and transfer it to this Laptop and send it from here - as soon as I can get the LIFE back to the Netbook.....

If you don't like the word feedback for what I have done just call it: Information.

Just to stress that I want to inform, not to cAuse trouble or to disturb peace:

Yes, I would have been very happy to write "Yes, I am the one where the eCS RC7 hits the nail...." (thats why I bought it - this kind of hope :-)   ). But unfortunately it is not like this. And this I wrote not to "critize";  just to say - one will might discover some problems while installing RC7, some serious problems if it leads to an end like for me. And I am happy that I used the "Non critical hardware" that I usually not use for seroius work. I would have lost all my data.


Cheers

Sigurd

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #22 on: 2009.09.01, 21:15:07 »
Hello Sigurd

ACPI  3.17 driver is not tested.
can you install eCS without ACPI?
then send ACPI logs to ACPI tracker? Else it's impossible improve eCS.

Here is your ticket:
http://svn.netlabs.org/acpi/ticket/445


Sigurd

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #23 on: 2009.09.01, 21:34:17 »
Hi Eugene,

as soon as I can find a way I will sent the log files. Thanks.

Sigurd

EDIT: Unfortunately I can not login there nor can access ecomstation.ru.
So I attach them here.

Sigurd
« Last Edit: 2009.09.01, 22:35:02 by Sigurd »

warpcafe

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #24 on: 2009.09.01, 23:51:04 »
Hi,

Do I read a bit of irony here? :)
Yes, it is not the best and most informative "review" in the world.  ;D

well, ehhh... actually that wasn't ironic at all.
( Apologies if I gave that impression )
I really think that Doug had summarized the situation pretty good and -compared to others- very much matter-of-fact and not polemic at all.

That wasn't a review of RC7 or something. That was rather meant to drill down on the causes of WHY the situation is "bad" at the moment. (Or was bad)

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

warpcafe

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #25 on: 2009.09.02, 00:00:37 »
Howdy,

ACPI  3.17 driver is not tested.

holy shit! I can't believe it... did you just say that the RC7 will install an untested ACPI version 3.17?
Let me just summarize a bit:
- People are working their arse off to get that RC out the door...
- Others are bashing themselves over the "quality" we are facing
- Yet others put their *last hope* on a stable ACPI version...

... and now, the RC ships with an UNTESTED ACPI ?? Are you kidding??

I mean, honestly: Yes, it is not GA but "only" RC7, but come on:
If it was for testing an ACPI, why not release an ACPI test version and that's it?
Why not put something TESTED into the RC? I really don't understand what you guys are doing.

Hopefully that was a misunderstanding... otherwise we'll have to talk about your perception of end-users and their expectations...

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Sigurd

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #26 on: 2009.09.02, 07:34:32 »

ACPI  3.17 driver is not tested.

holy shit! I can't believe it... did you just say that the RC7 will install an untested ACPI version 3.17?
Let me just summarize a bit:
- People are working their arse off to get that RC out the door...
- Others are bashing themselves over the "quality" we are facing
- Yet others put their *last hope* on a stable ACPI version...

... and now, the RC ships with an UNTESTED ACPI ?? Are you kidding??

[/quote]

Hi Thomas,

because I did not allways want to be a kind fo "bad guy" when it comes to write about the new RCs I did not pick up that point. But you hit exactly the point! I totally agree with you!

Sigurd

chennecke

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #27 on: 2009.09.02, 13:55:59 »
thanks for letting me know or teaching me the meaning of the word: feedback, so that I will not forget how limited my english is.

Oh my, aren't we a bit thin-skinned? *sigh* Just a bit of nudging into also reporting using the proper channels. Could it be that you are mistaking me for one of those people at OS2.org who keep attacking their opponents' spelling and grammar when they've run out of arguments?

By the way, at the last Warpstock Europe your English was definitely better than that of many other presenters I've listened to over the years. Nothing to worry about. And I think I've already said that elsewhere.

On another note I agree that including ACPI 3.17 in RC7 wasn't exactly the best idea.
« Last Edit: 2009.09.02, 14:22:31 by chennecke »

RobertM

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #28 on: 2009.09.02, 15:54:33 »
Hello Sigurd

ACPI  3.17 driver is not tested.
can you install eCS without ACPI?
then send ACPI logs to ACPI tracker? Else it's impossible improve eCS.

Here is your ticket:
http://svn.netlabs.org/acpi/ticket/445

AFAIK (and I get the tester emails for eCS Silver) ACPI (and the rest of this release) are definitely being tested. The statement above is very erroneous. My email log digest (from those testing) is already well over 100 messages long (plus tons of replies).

Eugene, I find it odd you'd post such a thing when you are involved in the discussions regarding it. I know... I get your emails on the topic as well.



I for one see no problem with a new ACPI being in the Silver Candidate or RCs. It can be regressed if needed, or left if the testing that is taking place proves it the better candidate than the earlier ones (that we all know are still having some issues).
« Last Edit: 2009.09.02, 15:57:59 by RobertM »
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warpcafe

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Re: eComstation Silver Release has been out since August 28th!
« Reply #29 on: 2009.09.02, 18:02:54 »
Yo there,

Eugene, I find it odd you'd post such a thing when you are involved in the discussions regarding it. I know... I get your emails on the topic as well.

Hm, so it looks like this was indeed some kind of misunderstanding... although it still makes me shiver when I think about "what did he mean with <not tested> then?"... ;)

I for one see no problem with a new ACPI being in the Silver Candidate or RCs. It can be regressed if needed, or left if the testing that is taking place proves it the better candidate than the earlier ones (that we all know are still having some issues).

From the viewpoint of a "release manager" (which I am not) I can definitely agree on this idea.
From the viewpoint of an end-user (which I am) I cannot.

Fiddling with ACPI builds is a pain in the butt... and I don't "assume" this to be the case - I know it's the case from when I had to collect logs and stuff for the guys. They ended up by solving my problem, but that was an action I would expect to be likely to happen when I install a new ACPI *test* version... but NOT when I install a whole new OS release (even if it is RC only).

You know, ACPI test builds are flying around for some while and they will be around for some more time. When it comes to a new distribution, and we know that people are carefully looking at its quality, I would prefer to keep the pitfalls as few as possible, ruling out any candidates for showstoppers, even at the cost of a less "broaden" update.

Okay, one might argue that in this case, the RC7 would be more or less the same like RC6. Heck, even if it would - what's wrong with that? It would show at least that there's not much more broken than before (...some positive aspect). Of course, Mensys should not release a new RC and make it 95% identical with the previous one. Sure. But sometimes it might help to have something that leaves a good impression on the cost of not having everything included in its most recent flavor. (Don't know if I am able to express what I mean...)

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy