Author Topic: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver  (Read 5037 times)

warpcafe

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Hey out there,

is it just me ...or does it get increasingly insane to understand WHAT to download, upgrade and install and WHAT to use and HOW to report in that (frankly) "ACPI mess" ?

I wanted to do as requested:
Download the latest ACPI from betazone and see if it works - then send feedback.
In order to do so, I checked what there is currently available for download in matters of ACPI...

Here's the summary of announcements from this week (and we're only Thursday, one more day to go...) and it's only the announcements on de.os2.org:
  • Sep-06: "ACPI Setup 1.6"
  • Sep-07: "ACPI 3.17 + ACPI tools"
  • Sep-08: "ACPI Logs Collector 3.17"
  • Sep-08: "APM.ADD 1.31"
  • Sep-08: "ACPI Fast Upgrade 3.17"
  • Sep-08: "ACPI.PSD 3.17"

Okay, perhaps I should not complain. It is certainly good to see the progress.
But seriously: WHO on earth is willing to take THESE efforts simply to understand what to do??
I wonder if that way of distribution will make people wanting to give a try to check a new ACPI?

Why can't there be _ONE_ package? Call it "ACPI x.x" and done.
Now, honestly, there MUST be a better way of dealing with that!

Please, you ACPI folks:
Make an effort to understand that we are USERS.
(Not driver installers or coders, not hardware specialists, perhaps not even developers dammit.)
If I understand correctly, you leave it up to us to
  • see what package we need to download
  • see what versions are contained
  • see which pack fits to another
  • what PSD and ADD means
  • read thru readmes to understand what/how/where-from to install a log collector
  • go visit a couple of URLs to read or submit something
  • perhaps have to request yet-another-userid to be allowed to report bugs

Let me make it clear: This will not work.
The simple reason is: Basically all the points mentioned above is YOUR damn job, not ours.
You have to give us whet we need. We run the test. A one-click (or single command, enter) action should be all it takes to get the logs put together. Done.

I am willing to bet that if you deliver only 1 file (zip, wpi) with a smart installer kinda thing, MORE people will spend their time downloading it. And if there is something 1-click in it that creates a log (zip) on the desktop, more people will give you this as feedback.
How to do this? I dunno. This is your job too.

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #1 on: 2009.09.10, 15:15:11 »
ACPI it's not a test.exe VIO utility. It significantly changes your OS/2. Every user has own model of PC.
So you should learn the docs to install/setup/boot eCS with ACPI.

You can try ACPI Heavy package (all-in-one)

jep

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #2 on: 2009.09.10, 16:38:40 »
Eugene,

Thomas has a valid point that not only apply to ACPI, also other projects that want user feedback should consider it.

Show/talk about the "all-in-one"-package to the public and you'll get more feedback.

"Hide" the individual packages so that they can be accessed for those you specifically tell and who truly want to test and have the time, expertise and/or dare to poke around in the dark themselves.

The feedback wizard was a great step as it enable us to provide feedback in a unified way with ease. Can we have a version for more projects as well?

//Jan-Erik

warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #3 on: 2009.09.10, 18:11:49 »
Hi,

ACPI it's not a test.exe VIO utility. It significantly changes your OS/2.

I am aware of this. But what's the point in this?
Even a whole operating system is delivered as 1 package, the user does not have to download different files.
I am only talking about the END-USER viewpoint, because you want feedback from END-USERs.

Every user has own model of PC.
So you should learn the docs to install/setup/boot eCS with ACPI.

Oh COME ON! I should also learn C., J2EE, .NET and how to fix my car. But I leave this to others.
Let me say it bluntly: I would not have to learn this if you would deliver 1 hassle-free package. OK?

I don't want to learn this because I don't want to know how it works.
This is your job.
And if you want me to install things - give me a installer for ididots that didn't learn how thing work, ok?
It's just THAT simple.

You can try ACPI Heavy package (all-in-one)

Very good, this is a useful information. Thank you!
Why didn't you announce it that way, but together will a whole lot of stuff of information?

Listen, Eugene:
If you want people to give feedback, don't try to drown them in information!
Instead of hundred lines that work for everyone, put 5 lines (but the right ones) for the different target groups, like:

- if eCS ACPI did not work for you, then:
-- download <heavy package>
-- if it work or not, please run <blabla.exe> it will create a file <blabla.log> on your desktop
-- send <blabla.log> to <email@herein.ru> with the subject "logfile"

- if old ACPI worked for you, then:
-- download <upgrade package>
-- if it work or not, please run <blabla.exe> it will create a file <blabla.log> on your desktop
-- send <blabla.log> to <email@herein.ru> with the subject "logfile"

Then, only 2 sentences are enough:
1) "For all ACPI problem, infos, FAQ, support go to <only-one-URL-here>
2) To report problems, go to betazone download and click "ACPI bug report"

That's it for the announcement. That's how things should be.

Don't make people go to
- betazone for download
- ecomstation.ru for info
- netlabs for the tracker

Put some brain work to the websites and offer everything looking like "in one place".

Next: Don't announce every piece of software (acpi,psd, logs collector, utils, heavy package, fast update...)
Make one announcement about "a lot of progress" with 1 link to <one-URL-here>.
(This will also help the news editors to get your submission out faster!)

I will make an effort and go thru the entire process of downloading, installing, providing feedback, looking for information and submitting a bug report... and then I will write you what needs to be done, OK? Let me check the bugtracker for example if it is "fool-proof" and easy.
I don't want to blame you and I don't want to make things look bad. My criticism is just because of the fact that people don't help you because you make it hard to help you. This is stupid, and that's why I am angry. Things can be so simple - let me (us) help you, ok?

Thanks, cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #4 on: 2009.09.10, 18:23:57 »
All our announcements are always clear and simple. All announcement are unique. All announcements are prepared during 2-4 weeks (we clear, sort blocks, ..). The announcements contain "if.. then..", "urls to .." So.. all goes very well. We attract maximum quantity of testers. Current problem: the bug-reports are not processed as required.

About ACPI Heavy - all news sites published the information about this package. Let's wait when os2world.com will publish the announcement.

warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #5 on: 2009.09.10, 21:17:58 »
Eugene,

All our announcements are always clear and simple. All announcement are unique. All announcements are prepared during 2-4 weeks (we clear, sort blocks, ..). The announcements contain "if.. then..", "urls to .." So.. all goes very well. We attract maximum quantity of testers. Current problem: the bug-reports are not processed as required.

I fail to understand you. Your ignorance is only topped by your arrogance.
I understand that you don't need help. You don't have any problems. Fine. Go on.

About ACPI Heavy - all news sites published the information about this package. Let's wait when os2world.com will publish the announcement.

Eugene, please clean your own backyard first before talking about things you do not have any clue about:
The reason why it isn't on os2world is simply that it didn't get here.
When you submit something at os2.org it gets routed to os2news.com which will feed it to all subscribers. One of these subscribers is os2world, but the automatic feed processor is not fully functional yet. (This is something you certainly don't understand because everything YOU guys do works perfectly from the very first moment...)

Also, there's another way for something to show up on os2world: You submit it here.
Did you do it? If it didn't work, did you notify someone? Are you a team player? Or are you just glad that you can put the blame on others by not speaking up?

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #6 on: 2009.09.10, 21:42:56 »
Hi again,

nevertheless I wanted to check out your latest ACPI and help you.
You said "The heavy package contains everything", yeah?

My arse, have I got news for you!
The first thing I stumble upon is that WarpIn tells me I am not having the ecosoft runtime.

AND DON'T TELL ME THIS IS MY FAULT
DO YOUR HOMEWORK
PEOPLE LIKE ME GET FIRED IF I DID MY JOB LIKE YOU ARE DOING YOURS!

Cheers
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #7 on: 2009.09.10, 21:50:43 »
And again:

Quote
"...always clear and simple"

Clear and simple, huh?
If that is the case, then it should be CLEAR and SIMPLE for me to understand what I have to download if I need "the ecosoft runtime dll", right? How about THIS:

Quote
All libraries and extra PM control elements are distributed as eCo Software runtime:
1.   runtime (base): [Download] (2009/05/01)    All runtimes in one .wpi package
eCo Software runtime (All) (2009/05/03)
2.   runtime (Win): [Download] (2009/06/29) NEW
3.   runtime (WPS):

    * For eSchemes, Imagination, PCM, MySafe released before 2009/05: [Download] (2007/07/26)
    * New generation (for future versions): [Download] (2009/05/03)

4.   runtime (Net): [Download] (2009/05/01)

Notes:

    * Install in the order, one by one
    * To download .wpi file: keep Alt pressed, click the link to file
    * During installation: select (*) Unlock All to overwrite old runtime
    * Old versions of the runtime

Contents

    * (base): ecolange.dll, ecomedia.dll, ecoxml.dll, esysinfo.dll, sysglit.dll, wowpack.dll
    * (Win): aboutdlg.dll, calendar.dll, ecoclrwl.dll, ecofilm.dll, etoolbar.dll, hugelb.dll, merlinn.dll, progress.dll, urllink.dll, wc_image.dll
    * (WPS): WPFolderEx class
    * (Net): ecshttp.dll, gnuhlp.dll

Yeah, that's from your website. And while we're at it: >It is ugly website<.

Clear and simple. ;)
What is the name of the planet you woke up on today, Eugene? Cannot be mother earth, sorry.
Dream on. Wake up. Whatever.

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #8 on: 2009.09.10, 22:24:07 »
Hi, seems you really have bad luck...

this is what happens when I install you LATEST "heavy" software package:
(see screenshots. No, these are not mock-ups.)

- Look at the screenshots
- Tell me again that everything is just fine

Okay, you can say that this is only a small error. The files are actually identical, only the timestamp is messed up.
But you know what my answer -as an end user- is?

THAT'S NOT MY FAULT
DO YOUR HOMEWORK
EVER HEARD OF Q.A.?

Cheers,
Thomas
« Last Edit: 2009.09.10, 22:27:44 by warpcafe »
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
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EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #9 on: 2009.09.10, 23:50:21 »
let's read your messages again,

1)  there are many news about ACPI on de.os2.org - we can't claim the scout of os2.org site. Read the official announcement "ACPI 3.17 + ACPI tools", ignore unofficial. If no official messages then unofficial news are useful. Again, we appreciate the efforts of os2.org news scouts. Today there are extra news, tomorrow only official message is published. No problems at all.

2) you requested for All-in-one package - ACPI Heavy package is available. Users which are testing ACPI since 2005 are using ACPI Fast Upgrade .wpi - I don't see problems here.

3) "one-click" approach doesn't work. As I said, every user has own PC model, specific problems. That's why every user should read the documentation. I don't see problems here.

4) "operating system is delivered as 1 package" - yes, and not all users are successful to install eCS, they have many troubles. That's why they are reading eCSFAQ brochure + call to support service. The same with ACPI. One package is not enough, you need additional book (223 pages) + contact support service.

5) "I don't want to learn this because I don't want to know how it works." - ACPI fully changes old OS/2 system, so every user should load additional kilobytes of knowledge to the head. I don't see problems here.

6) you write me how to write announcements. "if.. then.. url.." - yes, you repeat the structure of our announcements. There were announcements for every version + additional announcements in eCo Software newsletters + additional announcements of utils/special tests.
We tried all kinds of announcements: "What is ACPI, .. Whatsnew: .., Join or die, .. We need your help.." - we are doing this since 2005. I don't see problems here.

7) We distribute the messages among 15-20 eCS/OS/2 sites. Yes, we submit the announcement directly via os2world.com web-form. I don't see problems here.

8) Yes, ACPI Heavy requires eCo Software runtime. eCS 2.0 is equipped with eCo Software runtime. All other users should download the latest version from the homepage of the runtime. It should be distributed from 1 site, else the users will use old/illegal versions. The goal: maximal  quantity of users should use the latest version of the runtime.

the link to the runtime is published at the homepage of ACPI. I don't see problems here.



warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #10 on: 2009.09.11, 00:59:42 »
Hi,

I'm quoting inline with ">", else this will take all night.

>let's read your messages again,
Wow, that's different from the usual russian statement "You don't understand. I repeat.".

>we can't claim the scout of os2.org site.
Where did all that news come from if not you? Someone at os2.org invented it?
And nevertheless: If you write *1* _good_ announcement, that would be no problem. What you write is a bunch of information without form and structure.

>Read the official announcement "ACPI 3.17 + ACPI tools", ignore unofficial.
How can I differentiate this? And why should I?
Also, if you create CENTRALIZED information, I can simply ignore everything and go the one-and-only website that has all relevant information.

>If no official messages then unofficial news are useful.
Huh? Didn't you say I should ignore them?

>Again, we appreciate the efforts of os2.org news scouts.
>Today there are extra news, tomorrow only official message is published.
And the after, you send out the useful one?
All this wouldn't be a problem if you had *1* website that explains things well. For END-USERS.
Hold it, hold it! I know: You don't see problems here...

> 2) you requested for All-in-one package - ACPI Heavy package is available.
> Users which are testing ACPI since 2005 are using ACPI Fast Upgrade .wpi
How should I know that this package is only for people already testing ACPI if I am _NEW_ to testing ACPI and YOU didn't tell me anywhere! We don't have crystal balls over here, bring me one from Russia next time...

> 3) "one-click" approach doesn't work.
Let's face it - you either simply don't know how to do it or you just want to avoid the extra mile.
Or you don't understand what I mean. Maybe I should repeat.

> As I said, every user has own PC model, specific problems.
> That's why every user should read the documentation.
No problem for me if there is a structured documentation in ONE place suitable for END-USERS.
You are brilliant in explaining what people should do...

> 4) "operating system is delivered as 1 package" - yes, and not all users are successful to install eCS,
(which is of course a problem of these people, not those making the operating system...)

>they have many troubles. That's why they are reading eCSFAQ brochure + call to support service
Yeah, brochure: Instead of writing the brochure you should write more code and save that brochure.
Or save time from brochure writing to clean up your web pages, do more support work, whatever.
Is that brochure delivered with eCS so people can read it when they see an error happen?
I don't think so. So what you do when people have a problem is handing them out a brochure?

>. The same with ACPI. One package is not enough, you need additional book (223 pages)
> + contact support service.
You aren't selling these books by any chance, do you?
How long did it take to write these books by the way?
And: One package _could_ be enough if everything is contained. *I* don't see a problem here

> 5) "I don't want to learn this because I don't want to know how it works."
> ACPI fully changes old OS/2 system, so every user should load additional kilobytes of knowledge to the head.
Let me ask you: When you look at your watch - are you interested in how it was built and how it internally works or are you mostly only interested in knowing what the time is? I know that eCS and ACPI may be your microcosmos but for other people, it is only a tool. They use it to achieve something different (e.g. writing an email). They certainly don't use it for understanding how ACPI works.

> 6) you write me how to write announcements. "if.. then.. url.." - yes,
That exactly is your problem: It is "if.. then.. url.." only from a high level. Take a close look.

> you repeat the structure of our announcements.
Maybe. But my announcement is better and yours is crap, therefore we are talking about it here.
Yours is a mess of cluttered and shattered pieces of information that only partly fit together. Here is a tip:
- Print your announcement on A4 paper
- Take a second sheet of paper
- Take a scissor and cut a 3cm x 10cm rectangular hole into the 2nd sheet
- Put the sheet with the hole above your announcement, and watch:

Everything that is intended for 1 specific target group needs to fit into that rectangle, otherwise it is bad structure.
Up yours, marketing man.

> There were announcements for every version + additional announcements in eCo Software
> newsletters + additional announcements of utils/special tests.
Which leads us back to the "mess"/"mass" of announcement whose existence you denied...

> We tried all kinds of announcements: "What is ACPI, .. Whatsnew: .., Join or die, .. We need your help.."
>- we are doing this since 2005. I don't see problems here.
Well, the problem is that you are trying since 2005. But no, you don't need help. Everythings is just brilliant.

> 7) We distribute the messages among 15-20 eCS/OS/2 sites.
> Yes, we submit the announcement directly via os2world.com web-form.
Except that you don't follow up when something apparently doesn't work.
That is just the same f***ing story you told last time when you screamed at us and we simply didn't get your message!
People are not monitoring 24/24 if someone posted something... sometimes things fail. Don't put the blame on us.
And frankly, when I submit a news item and it isn't published witin 1 hour, I simply try again. f that fails too, I leave a mail to the webmaster.

> 8) Yes, ACPI Heavy requires eCo Software runtime.
> eCS 2.0 is equipped with eCo Software runtime.
I have 2.0rc6a here. There is "some" eCo Software runtime on it, yes. But apparently _not_ all that is needed.
I repeat: This is not my problem, I didn't package the WPI.

> All other users should download the latest version from the homepage of the runtime.
Oops, sorry. I think I overlooked that information in your announcements... oh, no, wait:
It simply wasn't mentioned. That explains.

> It should be distributed from 1 site, else the users will use old/illegal versions.
Well you know, looking at what you packed into the WPI even distribution from 1 site will not really be of help...

> the link to the runtime is published at the homepage of ACPI. I don't see problems here.
Of course not, since you don't understand how to write a useful announcement - shall I repeat?

'nite.
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

ivan

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #11 on: 2009.09.11, 01:12:23 »
Eugene, you appear to be saying that a version of ACPI is generated for each type of machine chip set.  This is lunacy!!

Another question - why does Advanced Configuration & Power Interface need what appears to be a desktop runtime for?  Don't tell me it is for feedback - that can be accomplished in much simpler ways.

As Thomas says the management of the project leaves much to be desired.  If I had people doing things in such a way as it appears the ACPI project to be going, they would be fired.

The end user does not want, or need, to mess around  finding odd bits here and there - they need every thing in one simple package that installs with one click and also has a simple way to back out of that install if it does not work.  You are the programmers, it shouldn't be beyond your expertise to do that, but above all remember the KISS principle.
 

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #12 on: 2009.09.11, 09:04:56 »
2 Thomas:

let's compare, how many announcements did you posted to eCS community? how many shareware products did you sold on eCS market?


"If you write *1* _good_ announcement, that would be no problem. "

No, nobody will catch this 1 announcement, it's necessary post a sequence of the announcements. People start buying yoghurt after they watch the TV-advertisement seven times. The same here, the users react later, when 10 announcements were published.


"How should I know that this package is only for "

For example, the not-published message about ACPI 3.17 contains this information.
The comments in BETAZONE contain this info too.


"Instead of writing the brochure "

No, it's impossible use eCS/ACPI without FAQ and docs today. We inform you about the problems in the OS, because it's impossible fix 1000000 bugs in all drivers and system components. The brochure contains knowledge collected since 1997.




2 ivan:
"you appear to be saying that a version of ACPI is generated for each type of machine chip set.  This is lunacy!!"

no, I said "every user has own PC model," => that's why every user should setup ACPI and a dozen of other drivers and settings in special way (depending on model of PC, depending on eCS configuration), to run his own specific PC.


"why ACPI package requires the runtime"

eCo Software created ~ 100 applications and utilities, To reduce the cost of development we are using one common runtime. All our applications and utilities are using the runtime.


"they would be fired"

ok, let's fire the developers and managers. what is the next step?


"they need every thing in one simple package that installs with one click"

I agree, here is ACPI Heavy package. On other side, do you agree that the professional level of eCS/OS/2 users is low today? (Why? Because no books, no articles/reviews). I am ready spend time to share the knowledge with the users, I spend time to write the texts and documentation, the users should spend time to read the texts.


warpcafe

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #13 on: 2009.09.11, 10:00:19 »
Hi,

let's compare, how many announcements did you posted to eCS community? how many shareware products did you sold on eCS market?

You do not understand. I repeat:
I am an end-user. It is not my job to create software but YOUR job.
And you are not doing this job good. Do you understand what I say?

In my job, I am a software QA person: Tester, requirements manager, working with business customers day in day out. And the projects I am working on are... "bigger" in any dimension than what you will ever be able to do. We assure that web portals work for millions of customers, we automate test suites that run thousands of regression tests per hour. Stuff like that, you know?

And looking at what I do every day, from my perspective, you are more than unprofessional. You would not last 1 day over here.
And what you provide in matters of information and the way HOW it is presented would make you be sent back to school here.

Second, I am not announcing as much as you. True. But why should I, heck?
I am not releasing software and not developing something for money because I did that for years and want to do something else.
But even in my worst times I was far better than you. YOU want to make software. I am the user. Why should I announce something?


ok, let's fire the developers and managers. what is the next step?
Wrong. Fire only the managers and bring in someone who deserves that name"

On other side, do you agree that the professional level of eCS/OS/2 users is low today?

How to make friends in a minute!
I agree that the level of professionalism at your end is very low. Same goes for communication skills and marketing.
You need help.
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Sigurd

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Re: DevCon: Discuss ACPI with the developers of the driver
« Reply #14 on: 2009.09.11, 12:41:27 »
Hi Thomas,

(now I can access the thread - "Wunder gibt es immer wieder"  ;D )

just to give my opinion on this:

I am an end user as well, I do not want to caraterize myself as being some kind of professional. That I am not really satisfied with the eCS development at all can be read in other threads (especially those I sometimes can not access anymore). I just want to say this as a preamble to avoid being missunderstood.

I am using the varies RC and beta Release of eCS for quite a while now. Everytime I have to update ACPI (when there is no new RC - when it is "just" distributed via Betazone) I just download the ACPI Fastupdate wpi, run it - thats it.

As I know that this ACPI release might be unstable I always use a "Non productive" system, so if there is a message like the ones you made pictures of - I simply ignore them.

If I am not satiesfied with the result of the update (for me 3.14 was the last somehow stable one - true - depending on the system one use) I just take the "older" Fast ACPI update wpi and run it again - while clicking the "overwrite" button everytime it is needed.

But then the problems occur to me - and thats why I sometimes gave up to send logfiles:

- most of "MY" systems can not establish any network connection any more (Hardware unsupported)
- last RC7 with ACPI 3.17 totally destroyed the whole disc layout - no chance to even see a log file ....  ;)
- to reach the target I copied the log file on a stick, loaded it in Windows, tried to mail it to Eugene - just to get an error message twice "Return to sender ..- dap bi dubi dab (as Elvis would sing)

Once I wanted to know what these logfiles EXACTLY include in there, just to want to know what kind fo information about me is included there, so I extracted it, but there heve been to many files to read...

just my two cents , or "das war nur mein bescheidener Beitrag hierzu" ;)

Sigurd

« Last Edit: 2009.09.11, 13:03:55 by Sigurd »