Author Topic: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students  (Read 4603 times)

chennecke

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eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« on: 2010.03.09, 13:11:04 »
http://www.os2world.com/content/view/19733/2/
Quote
Posted by Martin Iturbide - Tuesday, 09 March 2010



The s. .. .

Eugene, I appreciate your effort to draw young people to the ageing community but I think you are wasting your energy. It's much too late for such actions. Young and aspiring people will not choose an "obsolete" system. Just try to see it from their perspective: In a 64 bit world, OS/2 is a 32 bit OS with some 16 bit components, spotty hardware support, not exactly many available applications and a rather limited set of development tools. In addition, I really doubt that their professors would be excited about them choosing something from the past to solve their tasks. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

Sigurd

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #1 on: 2010.03.09, 14:08:03 »
Hi Christian,

you hit the nail..... Sad bad true.

Andi

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #2 on: 2010.03.09, 14:39:18 »
Although I agree with you Christian when you think of students in our home countries (Germany, Austria) I want to remind us on a big advantage of OS/2 - eCS compared to those shiny 64-bit systems with latest 2.6.23.55.6.77.99 kernel, GBs of (rarely used) graphics memory.... eCS runs reasonable well on cheap hardware! Hardware which is often given to trash in our countries, but not in others. For a lot of students in the world this may be an advantage. I wish Eugene success with his efforts to stimulate interest of young peoples.

CDRWSel

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #3 on: 2010.03.09, 15:21:54 »
Hi,
I think it to be a good idea to involve young peoples.
Young peoples always are interested in testing and working with not conform OS. I know a few one having done a try on the eCS demo cd into a virtual machine. they are looking for development possibilities and more tools exists and more they are interested by the OS. Of course, working network games will be a big +.

cheers/2

Saijin_Naib

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #4 on: 2010.03.09, 19:37:04 »
I'll tell you what would make OS/2 useful for me a student:
Proper networking support (Samba is mostly there)
Printing support (Paul is working on HPLIP)
Scanning support (USB back-end didn't work for SANE at time of last test)
IM Client for communication (Marty is working on this)
Office Suite for free/cheap (eh, not really)
Support for OpenGL hardware acceleration (Nope)
Ability to run Win32 apps [most sci software] (Not really)

I like eCS and I'm going to continue to keep trying to use it (especially on my netbook), but it has many shortcomings as you guys have noted. It has made progress this past year though.

warpcafe

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #5 on: 2010.03.10, 12:32:01 »
Eugene, I appreciate your effort to draw young people to the ageing community but I think you are wasting your energy. It's much too late for such actions.

Christian, I appreciate your effort to open Eugenes' eyes but I think you are wasting your energy. It's much too late for such actions.

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #6 on: 2010.03.10, 12:59:51 »
Hello os2world people!

Yes, my efforts fail without your participation!


1) It's difficult find students because os2voice.org is silent. Christian, please post os2voice.org newsletter with 1 article, if it's difficult find 7 articles.

statistics: os2voice.org published: 2003 = there were 12 issues  ->  2004 = 10 issues   ->  2005 = 8
-> 2006 = 5   ->  2007 = 2  -> 2008 = 1  -> 2009 = 0  -> 2010 = 0


2) Sigurd, please don't ignore eComStation period of OS/2 history.
http://ecomstation.tv/gallery/index.php?id=83
Ask other users to collect facts about eComStation. This is important if you want make your movies useful. This is the only way to attract the students.


3) Thomas, if you need accounting software, invoice generators - write technical task for the students. Describe the needed program. I am confident that some students will contact you and create the program. Show us the screenshots of german invoices, facturs, ..


4) To all active users, please post your testimonial here:
http://ecomstation.tv/en/?action=testimonials

Sigurd

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #7 on: 2010.03.10, 14:09:38 »
Hello Eugene,


2) Sigurd, please don't ignore eComStation period of OS/2 history.
http://ecomstation.tv/gallery/index.php?id=83
Ask other users to collect facts about eComStation. This is important if you want make your movies useful. This is the only way to attract the students.


sorry, I do not understand what you refer to:

- if you watch the movies: history of OS/2 - what do you see in part 2 (double time long compared to part 1) and what do you not see? (hint: Answer 1: eComStation, answer 2: OS/2)

- in most of the other films eComStation is mentioned more than one time and you can even see the Backgrounds

- and you hit one point: I may have gone more in detail in the movies to tell people about the weakness because of ACPI and Installation of eCS compared to the "old" IBM OS/2, if it is this what you want to see

- why should the films attract students? I made them for a lot of reasons, but sure not for this

- If you think the movies are not usefull - okay, no problem - do not watch them - it is that easy, AND please: in conclusion to this delete the links at your homepage referring to the movies. Feel free to add the movies you make and like.

- as far as the youtube statistic is not wrong all about 10.000 times (in additon to the other 5.000 I had before I deleted them for a while) those movies have been hit. It seems to be at least for some people usefull. But once again: it is not my intention to fish for compliments for this, it is just fun for me

But anyway, please do as you like.

 

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #8 on: 2010.03.10, 15:04:20 »
Hello Sigurd

1) Did I used words "useless" or "not usefull"? No. I have 0 claims to you. It's strange that you are so aggressive.


2) about history - it would be nice to talk about:

* yes, mention ACPI, start of the project in 2002, words of Daniela Engert, Kim Cheung. The long marathon of ACPI development: .. 2.x generation, 3.x generation, year 2009, 2010. How many engineers were participating in the project? How many users invested time into testing and debugging?

* yes, show wallpapers, evolution of OS/2 (90-th) and eCS icons and artwork. The users are working with desktop much time. Who designed Warp 4 UI?

* yes, it's interesting to remember the history, who was using OS/2 and eCS? students or ex-IBM'ers? or ..

* it's necessary talk about life of community (conferences, active users and developers). Do you know who initiated Warpstock conferences?

* it's necessary talk that the system is growing if there is internal competition (Innotek Java <> Golden code Java, WPS Wizard <> NeoWPS battles, other stories)  - this is the history!

* let's mention that major part of software is ported from Windows/ Linux. CUPS driver, .. gPhoto, ..

* it's necessary mention office suites. Starting from 90-th.. Star Office, OpenOffice, ..

* Let's mention the resurrection of eComStation after release of Panorama VESA in 2007. How it saved the platform (after ATOM adapters have occupied computer shops).

* it's necessary tell about the efforts of TV developers (Emperoar TV - digital TV, T&V HappyPlayer, etc.). The developers animated our desktops!

* please mention the history of eCS 2.0 development. How many beta-versions and release-candidates were released? How many testers joined the program of testing? How many bug-reports were fixed and tasks were implemented? How many thousand of bug-reports? (btw, 1 bug-report contains M sub-tasks)

* It's necessary talk about companies: Mensys BV, Innotek GmbH, Netlabs.org, ..   it's necessary talk about eCS resellers (a dozen) - they make important work

* You can talk about popular web-sites. There were several russian resources, many german sites.
This people created the world of eComStation and OS/2 Warp!

*  Let's show eCS demo-CD. It was very large and complex project.

* How eCS was founded? Let's talk about Serenity Systems, the articles and activities of Bob St.John

* talk about David Barnes (IBM)
 
OK, this ^ will cover 20% of eCS history.



warpcafe

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #9 on: 2010.03.10, 15:11:22 »
Eugene,

1) It's difficult find students because os2voice.org is silent.
It is silent because obviously, no one is writing articles.

Quote
Christian, please post os2voice.org newsletter with 1 article, if it's difficult find 7 articles.
As I said... no one is writing articles. Not _ONE_ ! You cannot go and tell Christian to write an article, this is very ignorant and impolite. The correct way is that YOU write an article and submit it!

Quote
statistics: os2voice.org published: 2003 = there were 12 issues  ->  2004 = 10 issues   ->  2005 = 8
-> 2006 = 5   ->  2007 = 2  -> 2008 = 1  -> 2009 = 0  -> 2010 = 0
This is what we call a "tendancy". And as you can see and as I said above - no one is writing articles. You are free to write articles yourself. Don't expect people to stand up to write articles because YOU need one. And it is not by intention that OS2VOICE doesn't have issues. There simply is nothing to be published.

Quote
3) Thomas, if you need accounting software, invoice generators - write technical task for the students. Describe the needed program. I am confident that some students will contact you and create the program. Show us the screenshots of german invoices, facturs, ..
No, you don't understand. I do not NEED this software. I offered to CREATE this software!
But all I got from you were negative comments about ugly interfaces and you came up with a feature list that was beyond the scope of reality: I offered a "simple invoice generator" that -by coincidence- was exactly what the thread was asking for... and you replied that what you need is a port of filemaker!!
(A database engine with IDE, report and queries wizards and stuff...). Get real.

When I offered you to create the Auto-FTP uploader with 3 variations of possible underlying engine and request for discussion, you again told something about ugly interfaces and waived that idea. 2 weeks later someone did a crappy ugly piece of software and you check-marked the item on your todo-list: "AutoFTP - done." ...now, that's what I call "how to make friends in a minute".

And your talking / announcements is in extreme contrast to what you provide and do. This is what disturbs me about your announcements - you *say* "A" ...but you *mean* "XYZ + CDE - ( FGH / MNO ) ^ A".
You will not see me posting at your forums again. And should I ever create software, I will not allow you to link to it or talk about it unless you change behaviour.

Cheers.
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

EugeneGorbunoff

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #10 on: 2010.03.10, 15:49:35 »
Hello Thomas

> no one is writing articles. Not _ONE_ ! You cannot go and tell Christian to write an article,
> this is very ignorant and impolite. The correct way is that YOU write an article and submit it!

eComStation.RU is publishing 1-2 articles every month. We are working with the developers and users.  There are N x times more users in Europe and America. So, potentially OS2VOICE can publish 10-20 articles and reviews every month. It's necessary work with the people.

Examples: os2voice.org team can publish "Analysis of OS/2-based ATM situation" in the newsletter. OR take interviews from famous users and developers (I shared this idea with Christian several times)


> I got from you were negative comments about ugly interfaces

source: http://forum.ecomstation.ru/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6425

I posted Pro and Contra. The discussion in the topic of the forum contains 0 conflicting messages. Why are you so aggressive to other people?


> When I offered you to create the Auto-FTP uploader ..

source: http://forum.ecomstation.ru/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6518

I don't have relation to the ideas of users. I simply post their suggestions. Why do you forward the aggression to me?


> And should I ever create software, I will not allow you to link to it or talk about it

You are very aggressive. I give you the license to discuss all > 100 projects of eCo Software, all our newsletters and announcements.




Sigurd

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #11 on: 2010.03.10, 15:54:49 »
Hello Sigurd

1) Did I used words "useless" or "not usefull"? No. I have 0 claims to you. It's strange that you are so aggressive.


2) about history - it would be nice to talk about:

* yes, mention ACPI, start of the project in 2002, words of Daniela Engert, Kim Cheung. The long marathon of ACPI development: .. 2.x generation, 3.x generation, year 2009, 2010. How many engineers were participating in the project? How many users invested time into testing and debugging?

* yes, show wallpapers, evolution of OS/2 (90-th) and eCS icons and artwork. The users are working with desktop much time. Who designed Warp 4 UI?

* yes, it's interesting to remember the history, who was using OS/2 and eCS? students or ex-IBM'ers? or ..

* it's necessary talk about life of community (conferences, active users and developers). Do you know who initiated Warpstock conferences?

* it's necessary talk that the system is growing if there is internal competition (Innotek Java <> Golden code Java, WPS Wizard <> NeoWPS battles, other stories)  - this is the history!

* let's mention that major part of software is ported from Windows/ Linux. CUPS driver, .. gPhoto, ..

* it's necessary mention office suites. Starting from 90-th.. Star Office, OpenOffice, ..

* Let's mention the resurrection of eComStation after release of Panorama VESA in 2007. How it saved the platform (after ATOM adapters have occupied computer shops).

* it's necessary tell about the efforts of TV developers (Emperoar TV - digital TV, T&V HappyPlayer, etc.). The developers animated our desktops!

* please mention the history of eCS 2.0 development. How many beta-versions and release-candidates were released? How many testers joined the program of testing? How many bug-reports were fixed and tasks were implemented? How many thousand of bug-reports? (btw, 1 bug-report contains M sub-tasks)

* It's necessary talk about companies: Mensys BV, Innotek GmbH, Netlabs.org, ..   it's necessary talk about eCS resellers (a dozen) - they make important work

* You can talk about popular web-sites. There were several russian resources, many german sites.
This people created the world of eComStation and OS/2 Warp!

*  Let's show eCS demo-CD. It was very large and complex project.

* How eCS was founded? Let's talk about Serenity Systems, the articles and activities of Bob St.John

* talk about David Barnes (IBM)
 
OK, this ^ will cover 20% of eCS history.




Agressive? It is that easy, Eugene:

to 1.) you wrote:

- do not ignore ecomstation (wrong as I stated above)
- do ask (I am sure I will only ask if I want to)
- to make them usefull (indicates: if they have to become usefull they are current not usefull)

to 2.)
so you have got the perfect script/screen-play - go ahead with your movie!

By the way: a lot of "your ideas" can be seen in the movies, such as Open Office, Panorama, Emperoar TV, Virtualbox, ACPI, SMP.....

It is useless for me to report about eComStation 2.0 history because I have obviously not enough internal information about it - I just could state that it takes 6 years now, the last Release 9 months ago, ACPI still buggy and all the other problems with eCS 2. But I guess this would not attract new users.

As I said before: I plan to make a "movie" about OS/2, eComStation is the latest chapter of it.
« Last Edit: 2010.03.10, 16:04:39 by Sigurd »

warpcafe

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #12 on: 2010.03.10, 17:15:52 »
Hi,

I posted Pro and Contra. The discussion in the topic of the forum contains 0 conflicting messages. Why are you so aggressive to other people?

Correctly, the question would have been why I am so agressive to YOU.
I am because you waste my time.
You are the role model of the "customer who doesn't know what he wants".
You say "apple" and when I make a picture of an apple to ask if that is what you mean... you tell me you want a basket of fruits.
I told you I can do it in rexx. You asked for C. Okay. There you go, do it yourself.

Quote
I don't have relation to the ideas of users. I simply post their suggestions. Why do you forward the aggression to me?
Because YOU were not satisfied with what I proposed... but you are okay with that crappy ugly thing that came up later.
Or to say it more exactly: What I proposed was better but was not good enough for you. And now I see something (I consider) worse is perfectly okay for you.
Listen, I don't have time to reinvent the wheel or build a wheel that has a different color. That's why I asked you up front. You said "no" and while I was thinking about alternatives, you published that crap. You wasted my time. And you did this often. That's why I am aggressive.

Quote
> And should I ever create software, I will not allow you to link to it or talk about it
You are very aggressive. I give you the license to discuss all > 100 projects of eCo Software, all our newsletters and announcements.
Thank you, but others are already actively discussing your projects. My opinion is the same like a lot of people, so no need to add it.
Also, I do not need your license to do this, since *you* are going public with that, spam-like in all existing channels.
That's why I don't see the need to make the Voice newsletter become yet another channels for you - it is wasting time (not only mine) and does not provide any real value. I know your perception is different but...:
The importance of a "news" does not increase by repetition, neither does its meaning change.

Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

Fahrvenugen

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #13 on: 2010.03.10, 17:18:28 »
While I don't want to discount anyone's efforts, honestly, I don't see how any of this is likely to attract any significant influx of new users, especially students.

Just look at what students on University campuses are learning / using.  It includes:

-Windows
-Linux
-BSD
-Other *nix type operating systems
-Mac (used mainly in more specialized areas such as audio / video production, etc)

There are a number of reasons for a focus on these systems.  But talking to students currently taking computer science courses (and yes, I work part time on a university campus and have talked to such students) some of the reasons are:

-The chance to use / learn / code on some of the most current technology
-The chance to develop something cool that others will be able to use (possibly to be "discovered" as the next great programmer)
-The ability to be able to mess around with source code, see how things work (in the case of Linux / BSD)

And, the most important:

-To provide valuable knowledge and experience that will lead to a job to help get through University, and a good paying job upon graduation from University.

Let's not fool ourselves.  A big reason that students go to University or College is to be able to find a decent paying career upon graduation.  

And the reality is that the jobs which require OS/2 knowledge are few.  Even fewer are the jobs which require knowledge of coding in OS/2.  The reality is that I can't see any videos or articles in OS/2 Voice's newsletter creating much change in this area.

It is true that some will become interested in OS/2 just because it is something different.  The people who use technology out of a love for just trying different things.  However I also would suggest these people are a small minority.  

I'm sure that there will be people who disagree with me here.  Its just how I see things.  And again, I'm not trying to discount anyone's efforts, just offer opinion.



Sigurd

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Re: eComStation in sci-tech labs / students
« Reply #14 on: 2010.03.10, 17:45:23 »
Sorry for go somehow in off-topic before, but I could not resist to answer to Eugene.

To attrac students I would like to suggest to have a eComStation 2.0 bootable Demo CD (like the 1.2 was years ago) that should be given to students for free or for free download. But I guess here the problems will rise: even the latest eCS 2.0 RC will not provide a usable system on modern hardware I fear, because there is so limited support for modern WLAN adapters - I guess it is a MUST HAVE for Students to connect to the internet.

The society in my opinion is changing to some kind of "Real time society" or " Just in Time Society" where everything - every news -  has to be NOW , the news from an hour ago are already to old, useless, not of interest any more. The NOW is the only important kind of to be anymore then.
And this all happens ONLINE, like in Facebook, Twitter and so on. The "Online community" may be overrated, but I think this is the direction where it will go to.
And if you want to take part in it - you have to be online, to be "in Realtime".

And yes: I hope to resist as long as possible, to take time for things as longs as possible and to avoid to become a part of this REALTIMEWORLD, at least to try it.

But, I fear, it may not work for me.

And thats one of the reasons (beside lots of others) while I still want to use OS/2 - something that is just there since 1987, that I am used to since 1995.

 ;)