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RPM/YUM !

Started by CDRWSel, 2011.01.02, 17:45:00

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ivan

This appears to be the worst non thought out answer for developers that seem unable, or unwilling, to let other people do what they like with their own computers.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was a way provided to extract the files from the rpm package, but no, that night just give people control of the computer they use.  We have looked at using linux but gave up because of the impossibility of finding anything.

Using this 'rpm way' will be almost impossible for several of our clients - their boot disk is a 1.6 GB physical hard disk.  Everything else is placed on other HDs depending on function.  Warpin supports this structure and allows us to keep their systems up to date by simply carrying the updates on a USB thumb drive.  We can even just send them the thumb drive and know they will be able to do the update, or install, despite the fact there is no internet connection.   

All this means, if this rpm way is used, is that we will have to find a way to unpack the rpms and then repackage them as a wpi.

The argument that using rpm will sort out the dependencies problem is erroneous, warpin already does this if the packager takes care with the install script - unfortunately many do not!

Using rpm is NOT a forward step, it is going backwards and, in my opinion, the idea should be scrapped.

ivan

Andi

#16
I really do not understand some comments and excitements here. I read a lot of eCS related infos since years, follow newsgroups and forums. I think I'm rather well informed eCS end user. As such I do not see why some paint the picture of the end of eCS or threat  to leave eCS only cause one very dedicated developer decided to port RPM to eCS. What's wrong if someone spend time on programming/porting software to eCS? Would anyone here pitch about Paul cause he made a wealth of Linux software available for eCS? No, in fact people like Paul have extended the life of OS/2 by years and without such people, most of us would have to left eCS years ago.

Face the facts, eCS can not live without software from Linux. Like it or not. Personally I would prefer native OS/2 software but that game is over. I can not live without apache, squid, sql, svn .... anymore. And so I have to learn some basic about how the linux guys get things working. Other solution would be writing my own web server and all the other software by myself (not serious) or using Windoze and pay Microsoft for there software (no, not in any case), buy a MAC and buy Apple software (not what I would like to afford).

AFAIK Yuri does RPM cause he likes it and he hope someone else likes it too. No one convinces you to use it. If a program developer decides to use a zip archive or a wpi or a rpm package to deploy his software, it's the developers decision. If you do not like it, ask politely the developer or even better, take the application and repack it in the form you like it. Or even better, PAY the developer for his work to pack his software in the way you need it. Getting things for free and pitching around cause you dislike the way you get it is the wrong way I think.

To make things a little bit more concrete - making a wpi package for the first time may take more than a few hours. Of course depends on the complexity of the installation requirements. I f you're experienced with Warpin it may take from 1 hour to 5 or for complex setups even more hours to pack and test it. Warpin documentation is rather good. Only additional hint I may gave, stay away from the GUI tool. So take the chance and pack some software you like as .wpi and upload it to hobbes. No programming skills are necessary, everyone can do it. If you do not like to do it by yourself, in most cases it will take only less than a few hundred Euros to get it packed the way you like it. Why not ask the developer to pack it the way you like it? Why not pay for this? Oh yes, software has to be free, every OS/2 developer has to work for free, has to pack his software in 5 different ways which is sometimes more work as the initial program and a totally boring job, has to address even the most unimportant user wishes, has to develop not was he self likes but someone else wanted to have, ....

CDRWSel

#17
Hi Andi,

Have a look on RPM/YUM plan, all eCS updates and programs from netlabs are migrating to this tool.
Tools which didn't correctly install nor it doesn't work on some systems and it uses the bad and criticized UNIX directory structures. About apache, I tried it before this tool which has it included and it never worked under my system...

I understand this tools gives the possibility to use a same development environment for developers and uses lot of disk space on end-users PC's. If I could understand, If internet isn't available on the PC, we have to download all RPM packages, put them on the disk or any supported media and change RPM/YUM manually to use this media as input etc... Where is the benefit and this makes more files to download...

This tool is used while it isn't out of bugs (install is buggy too) and nor friendly and very easy GUI to use.
This is an error and like this tool is, I think that only tester should use or try it now and not make it use for everybody.

But making current used programs package into this beta tool is not realist at this time.

If the target is to push everyone to use this tool,
An official annoncement has to be done
1/ Make it available for test only
2/ Provide both supported package (WPI and this RPM) for smooth migration (at least 1 year)
3/ Provide a migration tool from WPI to RPM/YUM  
4/ Provide possibility to install from any media instead of internet without having to add code into files
5/ Easy to use GUI had to be provided with the package


melf

Hi Andi,
I don't fear unix-programs either. I use quite a lot of them. What I really would dislike though is if an installer forces me to use the boot-drive for programs and forces me to talk unix-language ("unix-root", slashes instead of backslashes, put all programs in usr-folders and so on) all the time. As for now some ported unix programs urges for special tretment but most of Pauls ports for example installs where you want them and in an eCS-way (which I guess he has made them to do). Of course a developer can use whatever package he wants, but some of those packages will be steps backwards, if they are not fully "eCS-OS2-nized".
/Mikael

Blonde Guy

I use and develop Suntan Special, a program that calls other software installers to install a list of applications.

I support the development of RPM/YUM, and I plan to support installation of all RPM/YUM packages in Suntan Special. I read the Netlabs Wiki comments, and I agree the WarpIN needed fixes or enhancement. I still think WarpIN should be fixed for those developers who want to use it.

Suntan Special installs apps packaged with IBM software installer, Feature Install, WarpIN, applications which are merely zipped and packages with custom installers. It does so with a GUI and with command line operation. I build machines for resale by assembling a list of applications and prerequisites and executing Suntan Special.

I greatly prefer installation packages that can run unattended.
Expert Consulting for OS/2 and eComStation

ivan

QuoteIf the target is to push everyone to use this tool,
An official annoncement has to be done
1/ Make it available for test only
2/ Provide both supported package (WPI and this RPM) for smooth migration (at least 1 year)
3/ Provide a migration tool from WPI to RPM/YUM 
4/ Provide possibility to install from any media instead of internet without having to add code into files
5/ Easy to use GUI had to be provided with the package

I would add one more item to that list.
6/ Provide a fully working tool to unpack the RPMs.

ivan

DougB

QuoteOf course, no information is available about how to create a WPI

Creating a WPI is simple, for simple programs, and not really that much more complicated for more complicated programs. It can easily be incorporated into a build system (as is done with PMMail), so the programmer doesn't need to think about it, until something needs to be changed (pretty rare, once a program has matured a bit).

QuoteTo make things a little bit more concrete - making a wpi package for the first time may take more than a few hours. Of course depends on the complexity of the installation requirements. If you're experienced with Warpin it may take from 1 hour to 5 or for complex setups even more hours to pack and test it.

I have an automatic build program (REXX), that is basically a template for building WPI files. I can configure, and build, a new (simple) WPI package in about 15 minutes. Forever after, an update build takes a few minutes, at the most. Even the GENMU package only takes a few minutes to add new devices, and most of that time is taken to update the docs. Of course, programs that require special handling may take a little longer, because you may need to develop an external REXX program to do something, but that too is a one time thing, once you get it working.

QuoteFace the facts, eCS can not live without software from Linux.

Personally, I find some of the ported programs to be useful. Most of them are crap, and they get discarded rather quickly, but that is only my own opinion. If they weren't ported at all, I would not have the opportunity to try them. I do appreciate the work done by those who port programs, but I certainly do not use what I don't like, and so far, I do NOT like RPM/YUM. It just plain doesn't install ClamAV properly (or even completely). There is something wrong with the packaging, and there is nothing that I, as a user, can do to figure it out. I did figure out how to put the usr directory onto another disk, but I do NOT want ClamAV in that directory structure. In fact I don't want that directory structure, at all, but it looks like I am forced into using it.

QuoteI support the development of RPM/YUM, and I plan to support installation of all RPM/YUM packages in Suntan Special.

To be quite frank, I don't like Suntan special either. I do have it, but I don't use it, simply because it does not work in the way that I like to work. I suppose that you will need to support it, since it has becomes one of the options for packaging software, but I am not so sure that it will be user friendly.

QuoteI greatly prefer installation packages that can run unattended.

Another great feature of WarpIn.

FWIW, I will probably put RPM/YUM onto my test machine, and use it there. Once the software is "installed", I will move it onto my "production" machines, in a more civilized manner. If there is an advantage to making WPI files, I can automate that too. We will see how it goes.

miturbide

I think that RPM/YUM can be a success for eCs-OS2 only if a better than WarpIn GUI is provided.

The other point where RPM is interesting is building a "Software Center" like the one that it is available on Ubuntu... following the same idea Apple announced today their own Mac App Store. (for MacOS apps)

Martín Itúrbide
OS2World.com NewsMaster
Open Source Advocate

Skype - martiniturbide
Google Talk - martiniturbide@gmail.com

melf

Quote from: miturbide on 2011.01.06, 22:33:55
I think that RPM/YUM can be a success for eCs-OS2 only if a better than WarpIn GUI is provided.
Agree completely on that
Quote
The other point where RPM is interesting is building a "Software Center" like the one that it is available on Ubuntu... following the same idea Apple announced today their own Mac App Store. (for MacOS apps)

Isn't that in fact what eCS Maintance tool is capable of?



/Mikael

miturbide

Quote
Isn't that in fact what eCS Maintance tool is capable of?

Possible it is capable of doing that but having an App Store goes beyond the software, like having an standard for the installers (in the Linux case is RPM - AFAIK) and there had to be some infrastructure to allow developers to upload new applications and updated on the store. It is a service.
Martín Itúrbide
OS2World.com NewsMaster
Open Source Advocate

Skype - martiniturbide
Google Talk - martiniturbide@gmail.com

melf

I can see that,Martin, but my point was that there are capable native software, able to deal with such a thing. We do not need the unix stuff.
/Mikael

diver

i don't want to open a flame at all, but what is native?

and if you don't need unix stuff, what about samba server/client. all unix. Lucide uses poppler as a backend, all unix. gcc compiler all unix, just a couple of examples.
to be honest w/o all the ports we do/did we could not use ecs anymore.

and rpm/yum has it's advantages over warpin, even it still lack a gui.

ecs maintenance tool better not talking about that ;-)

regards
Silvan

CDRWSel

I think the problem is more with UNIX path structure then ported unix in respect with eCS standard.

e.g. none of GIMP, Apache or RPM/YUM doesn't work under my system despite all time spent to make them work with updated config.sys

I wrote above in whish case a tool like this one could be a progress but this one is not "official yet" and it doesn't install correctly nor work as expected for everybody (do not work for me - of course, providing it without GUI is an error). While it isn't an official tool yet and not fully tested or without bugs, products or updates have not to be package into RPM only or how are end user going to upgrade they products ? This forced me to stop my free ClamAVGUI development after new RPM ClamAV was released  :'(  :'( 

With a debugged RPM/YUM tool + RPM/YUM installer and a very nice integrating GUI into a futur eCS build, it may be a improvement despite all these UNIX paths and tool big size !

melf

#28
Hi Diver, just to clarify my view:

I guess that a port from another system do not become adapted to the specific OS in the same way as a program written for that system can do - this is how I look on the word "native". And I know that ports are essential to our OS, you're of course right about that. Lucide and Samba are for instance extremely valuable and other unix-ports too. I use them and couldn't make it without some. That isn't really the point.

My statement "We don't need the unix-stuff" referred, in this case, to the installer, and I wanted to point to the existence of "native" software doing a similar job. My thought was that such programs must be possible to improve, adapt or develop to suit the aim (not to say that "ecsmntool works as good as RPM/YUM"). The problem as I see it, is if such an essential program as an installer are going to affect the OS2 way to set up programs to a not OS2 way. I have never found the unix-way to do and say things easy to understand and do think we shall keep our own "language" and way of doing things.
/Mikael

miturbide

QuoteUNIX path structure
..me too. My dislike with Unix software is also the path structure. I don't think that the Unix path structure is something that eCS-OS2 has to mimic.

RPM/YUM, just need a nice GUI if this project aims to replace WarpIn.  Currently you have programs inside a single .wpi file installer. If an .rpm will be as easy to install as double click on the file and follow the install wizard, that will be good to replacement for WarpIn.

If to install a .rpm you had to do:
Open the Command prompt
"man rpm "  - To remember the rpm documentation
then "rpm --help"  - to remember the commands
and later "rpm –ivh packagename" to install
or "rpm –Uvh packagename" to upgrade...

...that will be another history  ;D

From the other side WarpIn misses unattended install options using a command line, RPM/YUM will offer something better on this.

The problems is not that this is Unix software. The problem is that people are getting worried about the relevance that RPM/YUM port is gaining on this community, and when you compare the RPM/YUM port with WarpIn is not easy/simple to use. That seems to be point.
Martín Itúrbide
OS2World.com NewsMaster
Open Source Advocate

Skype - martiniturbide
Google Talk - martiniturbide@gmail.com