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SWTSwing

Started by kim, 2007.08.02, 23:53:13

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kim

Supporting thread for the SWTSwing bounty.

magog

Yesterday I've checked Eclipse 3.2.2 which works with Innotek Java 1.4.2 (doesn't work with Java 1.4.1 from GC).
There are some issues but it's quite usable already.

The following screenshots use the Lipstick Look'n'Feel http://regis.risp.pl/ which is better looking than the default Swing Metal Look'n'Feel. The Eclipse package I created and sent to some testers has some more Look'n'Feels on-board (e.g. the jgoodies looks LAF http://www.jgoodies.com/freeware/looks/index.html and the NimROD LAF http://personales.ya.com/nimrod/index-en.html).

Here are again some Eclipse screenshots...
You can also find all images (including full-screen images) here: http://www.juergen-ulbts.de/Sonstiges/Java/Eclipse322SWTSwing/


Create a new project:




Adding a new class:




Main class of the just created project:




Please support the SWTSwing development and Java 1.4 backport!
Thank you!
Regards,
Juergen
*** Java Movie Database - http://www.jmdb.de/

magog

Hi!

I'll release Azureus 2.5.0.4 (full package - startup script and app) and an Eclipse 3.2.2 (Runner package - Eclipse 3.2.2 Windows has to be downloaded from the official website) based on the latest SWTSwing shortly on my website.
Regards,
Juergen
*** Java Movie Database - http://www.jmdb.de/

kim

Hmm to make sure; where do I download Azureus 2.5.0.4 from?

Pete

Hi

I hate to rain on anyone's parade but this statement

"Please support the SWTSwing development and Java 1.4 backport!"

seems a bit defeatist.

What is really required is a current java for eCS(OS/2) - too many java developers are now using java1.5 and moving to 1.6 making their apps unusable in an OS/2 based environment.

So, Sorry for the negative comments but it is *Not* backports of java software that are required but an up to date java environment.


Regards

Pete







cytan

I agree with Pete. We really, really need the latest version of Java. If this requires $$$ to get a developer to do this, I'm willing to part with $100 to start the ball rolling.

cytan

kim

We actually have a bounty for the latest native java platform for OS2; the bounty can be found here. It's currently value is 320 USD.

cytan

I know about the bounty which is really a hit and miss affair. To ensure that JAVA is ported, how much will it cost to hire a programmer to do this? Should this be something the community should seriously consider doing?

cytan

kim

Well, I agree that it's a little bit tricky; if someone should take on to do the entire port them self they would either be really interested of the workload or a bounty would be really attractive. The current amount won't justify this enormous work and I would say that the current bounty sum needs to at least be 10 times to make it really interesting, ie 3000-4000 USD and there is currently a long way to go there.

To hire a programmer to do this would surely cost at the lowest 2-3 month of development time if everything needs to be done from scratch. To be said, I'm not a programmer, so I might be totally of on my guess. But, since earlier version has been released the question is how big of help that code base can be or at project knowledge. So the question is if there is any interest from either Golden Code or Innotek to release what ever material they can to the community to help it out....

magog

Quote from: kimhav on 2007.08.23, 16:12:16
Hmm to make sure; where do I download Azureus 2.5.0.4 from?

I'll put it on my website once I've got some time to build the package.
I've just release the first public Eclipse Enabler package based on an unreleased Eclipse on Swing (EOS) plugin which uses the SWTSwing release from 2007-08-20.

Quote from: Pete on 2007.08.25, 16:34:50
Hi
I hate to rain on anyone's parade but this statement

"Please support the SWTSwing development and Java 1.4 backport!"
seems a bit defeatist.

What is really required is a current java for eCS(OS/2) - too many java developers are now using java1.5 and moving to 1.6 making their apps unusable in an OS/2 based environment.

So, Sorry for the negative comments but it is *Not* backports of java software that are required but an up to date java environment.

Regards
Pete

Pete, SWTSwing is only a backport not Eclipse 3.2.2. Using the term 'backport' with SWTSwing is not even correct. SWTSwing works better with Java 1.5 and even better with Java 1.6. SWTSwing has only been modified to fall back to older Swing methods that have been replaced or extended in Java 1.5 and 1.6 (e.g. Minimize to System tray function) if it is run on Java 1.4.

We can still use and still need SWTSwing even if we get Java 1.5, 1.6 or 1.7 on eCS and OS/2 because if we don't have SWT on your platform developers can't use Eclipse as Development IDE and it's currently the one most often used...not only for Java development (there are PHP,C,.. plugins available).

Quote from: kimhav on 2007.08.26, 19:33:15
The current amount won't justify this enormous work and I would say that the current bounty sum needs to at least be 10 times to make it really interesting, ie 3000-4000 USD and there is currently a long way to go there.

To hire a programmer to do this would surely cost at the lowest 2-3 month of development time if everything needs to be done from scratch. To be said, I'm not a programmer, so I might be totally of on my guess. But, since earlier version has been released the question is how big of help that code base can be or at project knowledge. So the question is if there is any interest from either Golden Code or Innotek to release what ever material they can to the community to help it out....

I would say you have to calculate 120000 USD for this task if you really would like to restart a native port.
Here is what I got back from Eric Faulhaber (Golden Code) last year (November 2006) when I asked Golden Code if they would help with a port...after Sun said they would open source Java.


Quote
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sure you've seen that Sun is starting to make OpenSource.
Yes, we are pleased to see Sun open source Java, as it is a good thing
for the platform, though we wish they had done it much sooner.

> if it's now
> possible to get an updated Java on OS/2 and eComStation.
> So far I think it's still unlikely as there are not enough developers.
Agreed.  While the OS/2 community has (or at least had) many smart and
experienced developers, this simply is not a project that one can
"tinker" with in order to successfully make a port.  It would be
surprising if a group of part-time developers could make a good result
in a reasonable time frame.  The 1.4.1 effort took us over 20 person
years with a dedicated team of very senior developers working ridiculous
overtime hours.

> Could you think of contributing parts of the Java 1.4.1 sourcecode to
> an Java 6
> (or 7) OpenJava Netlabs.org project?
> I'm thinking about the JNI, Sound, Threading,... stuff and everything
> else that
> could help to get it of the ground.
We will *consider* any idea, but frankly, this is unlikely.  The J2SE
port was unbelieveably costly for us.  To date, the OS/2 community's
financial support of this project (measured by sales of our port) has
been nearly non-existent.  This is not to say no one has bought it;  we
definitely appreciate the support of customers like you.  There are just
not enough of you for us to make a living in the OS/2 market.

So we certainly cannot spend any additional effort on another port
without some significant fees paid in advance.  Using our current port,
the work itself would probably take 3-4 people from our team about 6
months (full-time) to finish, including testing (possibly more if a
shift from the ICC to GCC compiler was necessary).  In the case of
GPLing our sources, such a fee would essentially be the last money we
would ever recover from our effort, so it would have to cover our costs
as a company for a half year or so.  I just don't know where this money
would come from.

> It would be still possible for GoldenCode to offer paid support for
> companies
> that will use this OpenSource Java and there is also still the Sun Java
> certification program.
No, speaking from painful experience, it is simply not realistic for us
to make a viable business in the corporate market for OS/2 (software,
services...) anymore;  it is truly dead.  And even if it weren't dead,
there would be many people that would be potential competitors here once
the sources were GPL.  The only way this would happen would be for us to
get paid up-front a substantial enough fee to justify the work.  And it
would take significant work for us to GPL the sources, even if we didn't
take on the porting work ourselves, though knowing the sources as we do
I am positive that our team is the best fit for the porting work.

Sun has not yet released everything under GPL yet (they are scheduled to
be done by June 2007), so that limits things too.  Note also that Sun
has not yet decided whether they will release their TCK under the GPL.
This is quite important to enable a compatible result.  You would be
very surprised at the "hoops" that we had to jump through to pass all
30,000 tests.

> In two days Warpstock Europe is starting and the OpenSource Java will
> be also a
> topic there at the discussion rounds.
Sorry we don't have better news for you to report, but we must, first
and foremost, pay our people and pay our bills...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Juergen
*** Java Movie Database - http://www.jmdb.de/

cytan

Well if its $120k, then I think we can forget about ever having any JAVA port :-(. 

Life sucks and then you die!

cytan

kim

Thanks for the info about Golden Code; another question then; are there parts in the existing java that could be improved to make work better or last longer for our purpose or are we really stuck with what we got?

magog

Quote from: kimhav on 2007.08.27, 12:09:49
Thanks for the info about Golden Code; another question then; are there parts in the existing java that could be improved to make work better or last longer for our purpose or are we really stuck with what we got?

As we don't have access to the code Innotek used to reuse the Windows Java and also no access to the Golden Code source code we are pretty much stuck right now.
I still hope that Golden Code will provide some pieces once someone is working on the Open Source Java from Sun. I know there is something happening with the Open Source Java and eCS right now (someone is taking a look) but it's to early to say more. Maybe on Warpstock this year there will be more info about this project.

I really think we need some parts from Golden Code to get a new Java Version build upon the Open Source Java to get a new version...if we want to have a full native port.
Regards,
Juergen
*** Java Movie Database - http://www.jmdb.de/

lwriemen

Quote from: magog on 2007.08.27, 12:22:50
I still hope that Golden Code will provide some pieces once someone is working on the Open Source Java from Sun. I know there is something happening with the Open Source Java and eCS right now (someone is taking a look) but it's to early to say more. Maybe on Warpstock this year there will be more info about this project.

It would be nice to get it put on Netlabs or somewhere, because there might be quite a few people looking at it. For example, I have JDK 6 source on my laptop. I've only looked at one file so far. It doesn't look impossible, but it is a very large task. It might be better to target JDK 7, as a port might be 2 years away.

kim

I would tend to agree to look on the next release, if we're going wait, well let's wait for something really good. About Golden Code and that they don't feel like handing over the code, then again - what good does it do them that they have the code in a drawer? What can they loose on handing over code to for example netlabs? They said them self that they have gained almost nothing on the Java ports so what is there to loose then.