• Welcome to OS2World OLD-STATIC-BACKUP Forum.
 

News:

This is an old OS2World backup forum for reference only. IT IS READ ONLY!!!

If you need help with OS/2 - eComStation visit http://www.os2world.com/forum

Main Menu

Shadow/Shortcuts - Desktop Structure

Started by miturbide, 2011.03.30, 20:01:47

Previous topic - Next topic

miturbide

Hi

I was chatting the other day with someone that complained that we should have a more defined structure of Shadows/Shourtcuts on the ecs-OS2 desktop.

We are used in ecs-os2 that when we install a new application, a folder is created on the desktop. Inside it contains the shadow of the applications that is the most frequetly clicked item on that folder, and we also have other important icons that got created like the readme, license info, etc. But those icons may be read once and are not as important as the program shadow.

Currently on ecs-os2 on the desktop we have the Programs folder which it is not well definied on his structure. Sure it has "Games", "Internet", "Multimedia" folder, but I feel it is not well organized as other OSes.

Windows is a bad example, when you install an application it just creates a folder with icons inside "Programs" and possible an extra single icon on the desktop.

Taking the example of Ubuntu Linux I found it that the desktop icon structure is very interesting (the icons structure, not the file path). On Ubuntu everytime you install a program a new single icon is included on the structure.

Following the Ubuntu example a structure possible can be this way:

- Application/Programs Main Folder
   -- Accessories
   -- Developer Tools
   -- Education
   -- Games
   -- Graphics
   -- Internet
   -- Office
   -- Science & Engeneering
   -- Sound & Video
   -- System
   -- Themes & Tweaks
   -- Universal Access

And of course that we need a another place on the desktop where to store the complete folders with all the un-frequently used icons.

Check the screenshots on the idea. It is open for discussion.
Martín Itúrbide
OS2World.com NewsMaster
Open Source Advocate

Skype - martiniturbide
Google Talk - martiniturbide@gmail.com

EugeneGorbunoff

#1
Good idea. We always repeat that it's necessary include N additional applications to eCS.
What to do without this N applications? Keep the folders/directories empty?

DougB

I find it highly unlikely, that I would want my desktop to look, and work, exactly the same as you want yours to look and work.

A few very basic desktop folders, and a few other things for convenience, are all that is needed. My own desktop consists of the Local System (which probably shouldn't be on the desktop, it really belongs in Programs IMO), Local Network (which should also be in Programs), Internet, and Programs, plus a shadow of the Drives object, the AWGET ToDo folder, DTClip, my printer object, and the Trash Can (which I should hide, because I never really use it). I make good use of the eCenter bars (two of them) for most things that I use all of the time. IMO the less junk that is on the desktop, the better I like it, and I certainly don't want a bunch of things that I never use, cluttering up my desktop. Oh yeah, one of the first things that I do after installing eCS, is to move the Templates folder into the Programs folder. I don't think that I have used a template for about 5 years.

Newly installed programs should be put into the Programs/Installed Software folder, the Programs/Multimedia folder, or into the Program/Utilities folder, depending on what they are. They definitely should NOT be put onto the desktop, unless a user wants to put it there. I don't mind if an initial program install puts a program on the desktop, because it is easy enough for me to move it elsewhere. A subsequent install (update) should be able to find where I put it, and use the location where it is. In many cases, a program really doesn't even need an icon, other than to set the proper associations.

Windows is an extremely bad example, and from my brief encounter with Ubuntu Linux, I would say the it is even worse than Windows. Of course, I didn't spend enough time using Ubuntu to get around to trying to "unclutter" the desktop.

Just my $,02...

RobertM

Quote from: EugeneGorbunoff on 2011.03.30, 20:46:56
Good idea. We always repeat that it's necessary include N additional applications to eCS.
What to do without this N applications? Keep the folders/directories empty?


No, search to see if a parent folder (ie: "Productivity Software") exists, and create as/when needed.



|
|
Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
|
|


RobertM

Quote from: DougB on 2011.03.31, 07:49:47
I find it highly unlikely, that I would want my desktop to look, and work, exactly the same as you want yours to look and work.

A few very basic desktop folders, and a few other things for convenience, are all that is needed. My own desktop consists of the Local System (which probably shouldn't be on the desktop, it really belongs in Programs IMO), Local Network (which should also be in Programs), Internet, and Programs, plus a shadow of the Drives object...

...Newly installed programs should be put into the Programs/Installed Software folder, the Programs/Multimedia folder, or into the Program/Utilities folder, depending on what they are. They definitely should NOT be put onto the desktop, unless a user wants to put it there.

Umm, you and Martin are saying the same thing... just figured I would mention that.


|
|
Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
|
|


warpcafe

Hi,

sorry but I have to admit that I share Dougs viewpoint.
I remember that with each install of eCS and even Windows, one of the first things I do is rearranging the folders - be it on the desktop or the start menu or even the "programs" folder on the disk. And I am sure that you will never be able to find a basline that suits everyone.
Same is true for desktop backgrounds, window styles, ... you name it.
It is one of the essential features of a desktop (even OS) that you can give it a personal touch to suit your personal needs.

That said, the thing that really annoys me is the fact that there is no "single point of control" in eCS that works throughout all install methods regarding where to put executables, data when being asked to choose an installation folder. I would like to see WarpIn (or even the OS below it) being able to resolve my preferred locations and offer them transparently. Example:

I prefer to install applications into "\apps" on my boot drive.
Each application will have its own subfolder.
Sometimes I even group them on a higher level like \apps\sys\ghostscript, \apps\tools\fc2, \apps\net\jftp, etc.
However that structure is not a 1:1 view on my desktop where I want to have things sorted completely differently, e.g. "FC/2" will have a desktop icon, ghostscript will not appear anywhere, and jftp might be the "internet" folder of the desktop.

So what I would like to have when installing an application is:
- it asks me where to install executables and should search for my env. setting "progdir" or whatever and offer the tree from there, including the possibility to create  a new (sub)folder in an existing folder
- it asks me where to put icons and offers me the tree starting on [desktop] including the possibility to create a new (sub)folder
- it asks me where to put DLLS and offers the places from LIBPATH (or: in the applications executable dir)
- if required/possible: it asks me where to put application DATA (same folder as app or somewhere else -> tree... etc., perhaps pasring the "dpath" env. var) this would be the case for "my documents"-alike

Of course, the whole process can be using intelligent "defaults" which I (as the end-user) can configure separately, globally:
A tool that I can use to specifiy, for example:
"When an installer wants to put DLLs on your machine, the default to be offered in the selection is:"
- Application directory
- \ecs\dll
- (select dir from libpath)
and so on...

Note that this is the default OFFERED in the later install, not a default setting that is APPLIED IMMEDIATELY.
Of course users should be able to select a hassle-free "don't make me think"-approach that asks NO questions and leaves a WORKING setup.
But again, the decision to use the easy or advanced way should be left to the end-user.

Oh, thinking about it - why not have a "test-drive" preset:
Users can select "test-drive" and the installer will be 100% quiet, installs the application and launches it, so the user can check the application and if he decides to keep it, the installer asks where to "finally" out the stuff and rearranges the paths/folders accordingly. So the user can have a quick look at an application without having to think about all the path/folder stuff before he is even sure if he actually will keep the software at all.

Just my 2ct. ;)
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

miturbide

Thanks for you reply.

I also share with you the desktop icons re-organization once I install a fresh eCS. For example I also move the templates folder (but In my case I move it inside "System") and I move "Internet" inside "Programs" folder.

My second step on a eCS fresh install is to re-organize the trays in xCenter the way I like it. On the Desktop at the end I like only having, 1)Local System, 2)Local Network, 3) Programs 4)Temporary folder shadow and some files Im working for the moment that later are going to be organized.

Thomas, about the applications path (directory structure), I wasn't talking about that, possible we can discuss it later since it is also interesting. I was only referring to the desktop icon/folder structure.

But DougB  has a good point, which goes in having the desktop as clean as possible. Ex. Last version of Windows, the only icon that show on the desktop is the thrash can by default ("Start - All Programs" structure is a complete mess from my point of view.

Again, thanks for the reply but the original hypothetical problem to solve is which would be a good structure to put the direct shadow of the programs without all the junk of readme, copying, url shadows?

Sure, there is no single solution, since everyone has its own way of see it, but the discussion is very rich to see other alternatives.
Martín Itúrbide
OS2World.com NewsMaster
Open Source Advocate

Skype - martiniturbide
Google Talk - martiniturbide@gmail.com

miturbide

Possible, another way (again from my point of view) will be to include the folder structure inside the "Programs" folder and have the "Installed Software" folder with all the mess for installed applications.

Check the screenshots as an example:
Martín Itúrbide
OS2World.com NewsMaster
Open Source Advocate

Skype - martiniturbide
Google Talk - martiniturbide@gmail.com

RobertM

Quote from: miturbide on 2011.03.31, 17:56:40
Thanks for you reply.

I also share with you the desktop icons re-organization once I install a fresh eCS. For example I also move the templates folder (but In my case I move it inside "System") and I move "Internet" inside "Programs" folder.

...

Sure, there is no single solution, since everyone has its own way of see it, but the discussion is very rich to see other alternatives.

I just delete all the icons except "OS/2 Command Prompt - Windowed" and launch everything from there.  ;D  :D  ::)

No... I agree. Which reminds me of something I would love to write... something akin to the Android Marketplace that works with Hobbes and Netlabs.


|
|
Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
|
|


Ben


Hey... the OS/2 interface has been around for a very long time indeed... and so has most of the people who are using it... hehe.  :D

Point being that we all have long since customized our own unique, efficient, way of setting up our desktop with every install, tweaking it and varying it over the years so that it is polished, refined, and not easily replaced or supplanted.

There are many ways to make folders of convenience with shadows and there is nothing wrong with doing that or presenting examples.

In fact, I have done that very thing using Object Desktops extended tabs and folders. (It's one of the reasons that I wish that B.Wardell would release what he owns of the OD code),

I guess that I should include a snapshot with all the hidden components popped up and visible, but I tried that a few times in the past; my desktop is 1920x1200 and with small fonts too... so it doesn't scale down worth a damn.

Still, I always enjoy seeing what clever ideas other  OS/2 users have come up with when tweaking their own desktops...


djcaetano


  Hi, Martin!

Quote from: miturbide on 2011.03.31, 18:04:47
Possible, another way (again from my point of view) will be to include the folder structure inside the "Programs" folder and have the "Installed Software" folder with all the mess for installed applications.
Check the screenshots as an example:

  This is just my approach. I also have a "Temp" directory on the desktop and a Download folder there (in fact, they are shadows so the "Archive Desktop" do not eat all my harddisk with useless backups of unimportant files).

  My suggestion would be some "themes" when one is installing eComStation. Something like the user can select:

  "1. Clean Desktop"  (Only Applications/Programs folder, everything else there)
  "2. Basic Desktop" (Only Applications/Programs, Network Neighborhood and System folders)
  "3. Full Blown Cluttered Hell Desktop" (The way eCS orgnizes the desktop today)

   And... for install Options:

   "1. Place software on programs folder."
   "2. Organize software into categories on programs folder."
   "3. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
   "4. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
   "5. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."
   "6. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."

   These options will not *solve* the problem, but will provide options that will easy the pain for everyone (ie.: keep the desktop/applications icon maintenance as easy as possible for every user).

   The problem is: basic desktop can be configured by Serenity on eCS install. The Install Options can be respected by the installer... but after that, it would require modifications on WarpIn and WPI packages (I think)... which means everything done before would not respect our wishes and keep adding annoying folder icons on our clean desktops. :P

   Regards,

  Daniel Caetano

aschn

#11
Quote from: djcaetano on 2011.04.02, 18:06:57

Quote from: miturbide on 2011.03.31, 18:04:47
Possible, another way (again from my point of view) will be to include the folder structure inside the "Programs" folder and have the "Installed Software" folder with all the mess for installed applications.
Check the screenshots as an example:

This is just my approach. I also have a "Temp" directory on the desktop and a Download folder there (in fact, they are shadows so the "Archive Desktop" do not eat all my harddisk with useless backups of unimportant files).

Enough users complain about installed applications that create their program folder in "Installed Software". I've learned from the NEPMD feedback and changed the destination for it to the desktop. The main arguments are: "I can't find the programs folder within the programs tree anymore after I've closed the automatically opened view" and "if it would be created on the desktop I can move it where I want to have it afterwards".

Quote from: djcaetano on 2011.04.02, 18:06:57
My suggestion would be some "themes" when one is installing eComStation. Something like the user can select:

 "1. Clean Desktop"  (Only Applications/Programs folder, everything else there)
 "2. Basic Desktop" (Only Applications/Programs, Network Neighborhood and System folders)
 "3. Full Blown Cluttered Hell Desktop" (The way eCS orgnizes the desktop today)

  And... for install Options:

  "1. Place software on programs folder."
  "2. Organize software into categories on programs folder."
  "3. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
  "4. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
  "5. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."
  "6. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."

These options will not *solve* the problem, but will provide options that will easy the pain for everyone (ie.: keep the desktop/applications icon maintenance as easy as possible for every user).

Great! I like all these ideas.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2011.04.02, 18:06:57
The problem is: basic desktop can be configured by Serenity on eCS install. The Install Options can be respected by the installer... but after that, it would require modifications on WarpIn and WPI packages (I think)... which means everything done before would not respect our wishes and keep adding annoying folder icons on our clean desktops. :P

Yes, without changing the installers that we have - eCS fresh installation (which uses multiple methods to create the desktop and should better be unified some day), WarpIN (actually quite dead, even regarding accepting patches) or Yum/RPM (criticized before being available) - these ideas will remain ideas.

ivan

Quote"1. Place software on programs folder."
   "2. Organize software into categories on programs folder."
   "3. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
   "4. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
   "5. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."
   "6. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."

Are we trying to go down the windows road and insist the OS and programs are all on one partition taking up all the disk?

Every install of OS/2 that I do has a boot partition of 2 GB - up from the less than 1 GB originally used to allow for java and a few tools, warpin etc., programs go into the apps partition where they have room to sprawl as much as they like, though if they want to take up too much space they may be eliminated.

This setup allows an OS image to be stored on the NAS for the very odd times when something messes up the OS.  Likewise data is on a separate partition, where possible, to allow nightly backups to be undertaken with ease.

As to the desktop, mine has evolved over the years to what it is today where I know where everything I want to use is just one or two mouse clicks away.

Yes, there is a case for a minimalist desktop for those that like working that way.  There is also a case for those of us that have to have several projects on the go at once and hence have what the minimalists would call a cluttered desktop.  Each to his own way of working.

One thing I do wish is that those that package programs in an installer would stop insisting on fixed places to do that install, usually on the boot drive.  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort that is put into packaging programs in an installer, it's just that I would like to say where the program is installed.

ivan   

aschn

Quote from: ivan on 2011.04.10, 19:54:19
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort that is put into packaging programs in an installer, it's just that I would like to say where the program is installed.

That's the main reason why a common programs structure is required. The simplified model: Either install it (separate decisions for files and objects) to the default destination or to those the user has specified. It would ease the creation of installation packages and additionally
would make (not experienced) user's lifes easier.

Interesting discussion, but I have my doubts that plans will come true.

aschn

#14
Quote from: ivan on 2011.04.10, 19:54:19
Quote
  "1. Place software on programs folder."
  "2. Organize software into categories on programs folder."
  "3. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
  "4. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows on Applications folder."
  "5. Same as 1, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."
  "6. Same as 2, plus place exe icon shadows organized in categories on Applications folder."

Are we trying to go down the windows road and insist the OS and programs are all on one partition taking up all the disk?

I understand now: Don't bother users with pointless choices that pretend control while the main part processes hidden and without any chance to configure anything.

Yes, an OS/2 user should not be bothered with two choices if he wants to have two additional shadows created. Just limit the choice to the destination dirs and try to avoid pointless and nerving questions and also mouse clicks on "OK" and "I accept" buttons.

Another item:

Different from W$, the documentation should be available without installing the package. WarpIN really has to be extended to support that better: Actually, a package can ask a user if he wants to extract the doc at the very beginning. (Note that ideas to improve WarpIN are around since a long time, but either were not added to the source or the implementation was not finished due to lack of interest and time.)