Author Topic: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project  (Read 27601 times)

abwillis

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #15 on: 2007.10.09, 01:09:18 »
A bounty for Odin is to nebulous and subjective (realistically unattainable) to attract anyone IMHO.
A bounty for say Realplayer 10 may still be difficult but the goal is attainable and objective.  Assuming someone had the interest and ability, they could demonstrate that they had attained the goal and receive the bounty.  The work done for that could (likely would) also help to get other things working. 

Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #16 on: 2007.10.09, 03:50:48 »
I dont see the point in working piece-work to get only certain applications to work. I feel like that would be counter-productive in a way. I think that having the whole Odin API worked on in a way that would eventually result in a full native implementation of the Win32 API (akin to WINE) would be a much more worthile goal, and also a more efficient path to take rather than specific little odin packages for certain applications. I know its a nebulous goal, but I think that just having the funding available is worthwhile and a great incentive.

cytan

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #17 on: 2007.10.09, 15:54:00 »
I dont see the point in working piece-work to get only certain applications to work. I feel like that would be counter-productive in a way. I think that having the whole Odin API worked on in a way that would eventually result in a full native implementation of the Win32 API (akin to WINE) would be a much more worthile goal, and also a more efficient path to take rather than specific little odin packages for certain applications. I know its a nebulous goal, but I think that just having the funding available is worthwhile and a great incentive.

Sorry Saijin, I just cannot agree with you that a bounty will get anyone to try to get ODIN to a point where it will be a "full native implementation of the Win32 API (akin to WINE)". There is a whole team of programmers working on WINE and it is still not 100% compatible with Win32. For us, we'll be lucky to have one person!

cytan

Terry

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #18 on: 2007.10.09, 16:52:26 »
Odin not only reverse-engineers what eventually emerges as Win32 code, but must also buggy Win32 code to get that targeted Win32 application to function on OS/2 and eComStation.

Which Win32 do you code to progress from Beta Odin, then Alpha Odin, and finally G.A. Odin:

Windows 95A
Windows 95B
Windows 95C
Windows 98
Windows 98SE
Windows ME
Windows XP
Windows XP SP1
Windows XP SP2
Windows XP SP3

...just to mention a few.

Another complication is that your favorite Win32 app is now beginning to code for NTFS code.  For example, if you really like Adobe Acrobat Professional v6 - you will find that it is becoming so much harder for that same version 6 app - to read Adobe v8 PDFs.

Win32 vendors are now "pleased to announce" that their Windows 95A application is now (NTFS-only) Windows Vista-certified - for only another $69.96 USD.  So, ten upgrades becomes $699.50 USD - what a consumer-friendly convenience!  Now we can all sleep better at night.

Odin has always coded for a moving target.

Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #19 on: 2007.10.11, 02:00:18 »
Seeing as I dont understand what Terry is talking about, Im just going to go ahead and ignore that post. How about if Odin is coninued in the same way it was developed? It seemed to be re-mapping API calls from WIN32 API to OS/2 API, and somehow doing it with .dll and .sym files. What was their end goal originally? How did they envision their path? Why not simply continue working on it?

RobertM

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #20 on: 2007.10.11, 06:57:15 »
Hi Saijin_Naib,

Here's what Terry is trying to say (summed up to a few examples that may or not be accurate, but you should get the picture):

Lets say there is a Windows 95 API that draws a line on the screen that looks like this

GDI_Draw_Line(x1,x2,y1,y1,color)

In Win98 it may be:

GDI_Draw_Line(x1,x2,y1,y1,color,stroke)  (stroke being line width)

That's the ever changing API part... and in this case, Odin needs to be able to deal with the API changes... which do we go for? The Win95 version or the Win98 version? or the newer changed one in the new XP SP3 fix?


Now, there's also this problem... let's use the same fictitious example, but assume that the API didnt change...

GDI_Draw_Line(x1,x2,y1,y1,color,stroke)

Let's say instead of the API changing, the API was broken in some way (like much of the Windows APIs), so that when x1 or x2 was a negative number, it made the line semi-transparent. A lot of programmers either had to program around those unexplainable behavior, or - often used that behavior... so... when a wrapper for an API is written, instead of just calling the proper OS/2 API to draw the line, there has to be code that says "oh, but wait, if x1 or x2 is negative, then we have to screw up the way the OS/2 API handles it because the OS/2 API will not properly reproduce the buggy result the Win API would".

This type of scenario is prevelant in the run-time DLLs that come with their compilers as well (that get included with apps compiled using them). The nightmare never ends. It's also the reason why backwards compatibility for apps between versions of Windows has been nightmarish for certain apps.

Now, keep in mind, while the "examples" I gave are fictitious, there are numerous real world situations just like that which the Odin team need to work around. If you read the changelogs for Odin, you will see some documentation pointing to such problems, where a programmer either had to write a workaround, or dropped sections that should have worked but didnt always because of Windows handling the calls in unexpected behavior.

So, hopefully that explains why Terry's post is actually the answer to exactly what you are asking... basically:

(1) the APIs keep changing (get one set re-mapped, and a Service Pack or new Windows release changes it)
(2) MANY of the Windows APIs have undocumented features - some of which behave unexpectedly
(3) MANY of the Windows APIs dont always work as documented, meaning workarounds need to be written

It makes continuing Odin without a LOT of manpower a daunting task.

Using a car analogy: OS/2 is like a car where if you put it in Drive and hit the gas, it goes forward. You can take that method and use it in any other car... except Microsoft's. In Microsoft's car, if it is raining and 40 degrees out, the car will go backwards instead; and if it is sunny and over 90, it wont do anything... so, in the OS/2 car, to get the same results, instead of just calling "Initiate_Forward_Motion" you need to do "Check_Weather" and then call one of 3 actions... instead of the expected forward motion one.


That's why it's easier to get specific applications to work... any workarounds needed are only to get that app working - as opposed to finding every workaround needed for an API so that every app will work correctly.

-Robert
« Last Edit: 2007.10.11, 07:18:38 by RobertM »
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Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #21 on: 2007.10.11, 07:20:19 »
Okay, now I see what you are talking about, but I feel the need to ask, is this just Windows API, or is it any API? I feel that maybe you are attacking MS just because its MS. That issue aside, I see what you are saying. That raises another question then: How did they get Odin to where it is, and how do things like WINE function then?

Would the best approach (instead of a PM translation of the win32 API) be a package approach of custom tailored DLL and .SYM files that are compiled for a specific application?

For instance, I want Office XP/2003 (hate office 2007, probably a shitload of dependencies on other MS APIs (.net framework maybe?)). Instead of a WINE type API solution to it, would it be easier for someone to somehow compile custom .DLL and .SYM files in a little Odin Office XP/2003 package? What then? Does the current Odin environment load it through its PE.exe using the new .dll and .sym files? If this approach works for one app compiled by one guy, and another person wants another app but it shares some files, wont there be overlap?

Would it be best to just break down the process by converting DLL by DLL, one by one, full port to PM?
So lets say we choose Windows XP SP2 (Vista is a whole other animal) as our Win32 API starting point.
We start with the first .dll in the system32 folder, in my case 6to4svc.dll (for IPv6 to IPv4 route/translation). We port that .DLL over to an PM or Odin DLL, as is. No bug fixes, nothing.

However much flaming Im going to get from this next statement, so be it.

Windows runs. It runs my programs, all the time, without issue. Office always works. AIM always works. Photoshop ALWAYS works. As a matter of fact, I almost never have program crashes (Notable exception, Lycos Sonique 1.96 but I love it anyway). Now, If i were talking about OS/2 and its performance, well, this would be a different story entirely...

Something must be right in the API to have this consistancy of performance, and I know, I know, you all hate windows blah blah blah. Leave that shit at the door, I am trying to be serious and without bias here, so please read/talk maturely.

So if we assume that the API works and if we just remap the calls to a way that OS/2 understands verbatim, we wont break anything, right? Because we aren't changing it, we are just making sure it all gets interpreted, right?

I really am trying to understand and think as much as I can about this because I want to see OS/2 have Win32 API (whether or not its "as buggy" as the original  ::) ) because I feel it would be a MAJOR selling point for possible migrants, dual-booters, or hobby-OS users. Oh yeah, and myself. I hate open-office with an undying passion. Its so searingly mediocre and slow. AND, to add insult to injury, I am paying a subscription to see little work done to a FREE program that I hate. Thats a kick in the nuts. Id rather pay to have Office work properly under OS/2, and any other Windows app that follows.

RobertM

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #22 on: 2007.10.11, 08:56:20 »
OK... to answer your questions, in some semblance of similar order... no, it isnt JUST Windows. BUT... Windows has more similar issues than any other OS I have ever used - and I've used virtually every Apple OS, numerous Commodore OS's, every version of OS/2 since v2.0 beta, every version of Windows since 2.?, numerous versions of Linux, AIX, SunOS, Solaris, various versions of Netware...

Heck, Apple changed both their hardware (drastically) and their core OS... and still maintained backwards compatibility to a FAAAAR greater level.

If you add all such problems up from EVERY other OS (excepting Linux), MS *STILL* has them all beat. Now as for Linux, it depends on the distro... it's not a matter of incompatibility due to stupidity (as it is in MS's case), it's a matter of different libraries/code being compiled into a distro.

Now as for Windows, while all your programs may work, I have run into the exact opposite - too numerous times to count. Most people wont run into that problem as most people upgrade their software, or purchase software for their new machine (which has already been updated to run on the new version of Windows)... but that isnt the case for a lot of people who like to hold on to that old copy of _______ (pick a program) and re-install it on their new machine.

As for examples, when Win95 was in beta, Lotus SmartSuite and WordPerfect ran (the Win3.1 versions). There were a bunch of issues for them  once the final release of Win95 came out. WP and Lotus had to scramble to come out with updates. As for more current examples under WinXP, I love to play Final Fantasy VII - but it acts quirky, or doesnt run, or doesnt install without a lot of hassles, doesnt access the sound subsystem "properly" (because things changed in the APIs), doesnt access the graphics/screen subsystem properly (same reason)... or lets move a little further forward. Norton AV and Norton Internet Security didnt work under Vista until an update came out. This was again a last minute thing - which required Symantec to send us (at CompUSA - which is where I worked at the time) a re-written/fixed version until they could get disks made and shipped to us. Every AV company was in that same boat. Even various portions of Office 2003 were prone to problems (but at least got updated during automatic updates) - while older versions had even greater issues. Many accounting packages (which dont make any special system calls) also wouldnt run on Vista - and the list of games having issues because they "broke" things in the DirectX subsystem (and elsewhere) is pretty big as well.

Other OS's strove for and achieved far better backwards compatibility. OS/2, even with numerous changes, will still run virtually any OS/2 1.X software (and that's after IBM re-wrote most of OS/2 for the 2.X and 3.X releases). As another example, under OS/2, IBM updated a lot of the REXX subsystem - but still maintained backwards compatibility... for instance, they added Y2K type results for some of the calls that were previously non-Y2K compliant - yet the old calls still worked - AS EXPECTED - with the same exact results that previous versions would produce.

As an end user, you may not run into that problem... as a tech in the field who has seen sometimes upwards of 20 machines in a day, I ran into that problem (on Windows) frequently. As someone (not me) coding wrappers in Odin, they have to be aware of such problems and write work-arounds as needed.

As for your other suggestion about a different method of writing Odin, I think (my opinion) that the method that they are using is probably easier... at least they have something to start from... then find the inconsistencies, and work around them.

As for MS apps, one BIG problem is that MS often uses undocumented APIs... they have been in court here and elsewhere because of that (and lost cases in the EU because of it). It gives them an edge over their competition (in that they can use faster and/or better APIs to do the same things that their competitors cant), but makes getting many MS apps working via Odin a massive task.

As for this:

Quote
So if we assume that the API works and if we just remap the calls to a way that OS/2 understands verbatim, we wont break anything, right? Because we aren't changing it, we are just making sure it all gets interpreted, right?

No... OS/2 will (virtually) always do things the EXPECTED way. Windows does NOT. I'm not MS bashing - though believe me I could... it is just a fact.

As for Windows running and running well, I think you must be kidding yourself there... and if you think you aren't then answer this question... and lets use Windows XP as an example...

Why does XP require 5 times the hardware WinNT 3.5 needed?
- OS/2 will run on a Pentium 1 STILL
- Linux will run on a Pentium 1 STILL
- XP with it's necessary fixes and updates needs a high-end PIII to a P4 to get the same performance that NT3.5 gets on a Pentium 1.

My laptop is running WSeB v4.52 CP PF 2 (latest Warp Server) - it was originally a PII 233... it is now a PII 300. EVERYTHING (except Mozilla - which is a Windows port) runs blazingly fast. I can even watch movies on it.

Here's a bunch of the problems... much of the code in Windows was bought or "acquired" elsewhere... from what is evident in just how the APIs are set up and keep changing, instead of adding functionality, MS often writes kludges to get different functionality - which changes things vital to some apps, and slows down the system. MS actually has written maybe 5% of their software catalog... bought or acquired the rest and been modifying them from then till now.

Now, lets get to OpenOffice... unfortunately, as a (mostly) Windows port, it isnt nearly as fast as it could be on OS/2 - Describe for OS/2 and Maul Publisher shows the speed a word processor should work under OS/2. And even on Windows, MS Office has a big advantage (calling APIs from DLLs loaded with Windows - often undocumented ones that the OO team couldnt use even if they wanted to - which from what I understand, they dont - it would break cross platform compatibility).

Ever wonder why many Windows programs are so much larger than Linux or OS/2 ones? Simple. If I want to write an OS/2 app, I can simply call OS/2 to do a ton of the work... and it will run on virtually any new version with very little care on my part. Yeah, if I call an API from WSeB that wasnt in the earlier releases, it wont work... but it WILL work on every new release. Hence, places like Hobbes have ancient programs (a decade or more old) that will still run - even with numerous changes to OS/2 - because IBM put effort into NOT breaking APIs.

Quote
For instance, I want Office XP/2003 (hate office 2007, probably a shitload of dependencies on other MS APIs (.net framework maybe?)). Instead of a WINE type API solution to it, would it be easier for someone to somehow compile custom .DLL and .SYM files in a little Odin Office XP/2003 package? What then? Does the current Odin environment load it through its PE.exe using the new .dll and .sym files? If this approach works for one app compiled by one guy, and another person wants another app but it shares some files, wont there be overlap?

No... that would require knowledge of the APIs (including the bugs), and re-writing them. The result would virtually be re-writing the entire app. And worse... many MS products use undocumented calls to Windows that seem virtually impossible to track down and/or duplicate. You correctly see the problem with Office... but it isnt just .Net API dependencies... it's also stuff they migrated into the core OS code. And that is going to get worse. MS has filed a few patents just recently for their new advertising framework. This new advertising framework will allow them to advertise to you more accurately by spying on everything you do - whether it's creating a Word document, using email, web, instant messenger, Excel, or any MS Live service. To do that, a lot more stuff is in the core OS, so that what you type can be indexed and sent to MS so they can profile you. Some component updates are already hitting the automatic updates. They have even back-ported a bunch of them to XP (since Vista isnt selling as well as they hoped).

So... how do you get an app working through Odin that requires (often undocumented) APIs that have been migrated into the OS's core DLLs? I dont know. Is it many APIs? I dont know... but it just takes one.

Quote
Windows runs. It runs my programs, all the time, without issue. Office always works. AIM always works. Photoshop ALWAYS works. As a matter of fact, I almost never have program crashes (Notable exception, Lycos Sonique 1.96 but I love it anyway). Now, If i were talking about OS/2 and its performance, well, this would be a different story entirely...

Get an older version of Photoshop, try it on Vista. Get an older version of AutoCad... (depending on what version) try it on XP or Vista. Get a year old copy of TurboTax or QuickBooks and try it on Vista. Get a BRAND NEW HP from the original Vista launch and try to use the web cam with anything but the specialized HP Software (wont work). Get a multi-function printer from the Vista launch days and try to get anything more than printing working (wont work). Get various network cards from the Vista launch period (wont work). ALL required code updates to work on Vista because MS changed or broke things. The picture isnt as rosy as you think. If you have XP... yeah, the stuff out there will run... 6 years have passed... any issues in the software have been fixed. With Vista... well, I covered that. If you got XP when it first came out, you would have run into the same problems many Vista immediate buyers ran into.

As for performance, Windows still doesnt touch OS/2... in any configuration - with one class of exceptions... and that is certain Windows ports on OS/2 (OpenOffice, and Firefox for example). Netscape 4.61 FLEW on OS/2 compared to it's Windows counterpart.


RANT below:

As for bashing MS... that's easy. They INTENTIONALLY force upgrade cycles. Soon, if their pressure on game vendors is successful, you will HAVE TO get Vista to play games... WHY? because they changed some things in DirectX and added some other things - and are trying to force game vendors to write to those changes only (forcing users to buy Vista so their games will run). Some of those changes to VERY OLD EXISTING APIs are why games as recent as this year dont run properly under Vista - MS is trying to force the game developers to re-write for Vista, hoping they wont write two "versions" (one for XP, one for Vista), hence driving Vista sales.


They also have tried "working" hand-in-hand with hardware manufacturers and hardware vendors (like CompUSA) to get US to push their newest OS with the understanding that they would in turn push hardware sales by understating the hardware requirements forcing users to come back in for upgrades.

And no, that's not speculation or fabrication. You ever try to run Vista, or XP, or 95 on it's "Minimum requirements"? They know those requirements are understated. As a matter of fact, if you find the first release of Win95, you will see that the boxes said "4MB of RAM required" - which was an OUTRIGHT LIE. They later changed the boxes to read 8MB. We had a tech video conference call with them (when I worked at CompUSA) before it was released (but after we had gotten in palettes of the "mislabelled" boxes). It went something like this... we, the techs were pissed with the games they were playing... The Win95 Software Manager (Ballmer I think?) and another MS stoogie were on the video call (one way video from them, two way phone to all the stores on a call-in basis that every store could hear). So, my managers put me up to asking them the questions that MS was lying to the public about...

First call... (paraphrased)
ME: "Why are you telling customers that Win95 is a true 32bit OS?"

MS: "It is true 32bit"

ME: "No, it is really DOS and Win16, and some Win32 calls grafted on top through a thunking layer."

MS: "Well, the customers wont know that. So it doesnt matter."

ME: "So you expect us to lie to them too?"

CLICK... end of call.

We tried calling back, and they had blocked our number "The CompUSA Video Teleconference you are trying to access isnt valid" - we tried multiple times... then my General Manager (who was enjoying this immensely because he wasnt too fond of having to perpetrate MS's lies on our customers) dialed it from his line and passed me the phone (his line went through).

ME: "So, your Win95 box says that it needs 4MB of RAM... thats outrageous. It needs at least 8MB"

MS: "Yeah, we know, but you all should be happy, it means you will get a lot of people coming back in to get upgrades"

ME: "So, we should lie to them when they come in to buy it, and then rip them off on upgrades the box says they shouldnt need?"

MS: "You'll make lots of money in upgrades."

ME: "Well, we arent in the business of lying to our customers or ripping them off. And us techs dont make more money from lying to them - even if we were willing to."

MS: (nastily) "What store do you work for and who's your general manager?"

ME: "His name's Todd, and he is standing right next to me... this is his line I am calling on. Why, you want to speak to him? I'll gladly put him on for you."

MS: "No..." CLICK



So, when some of what us OS/2 users says seems like MS bashing, it's often more accurately annoyance from being burned by MS from just that type of attitude. When it comes to OS/2, I have found that I can run it on less hardware than required - and because of the way it handles resources, I can run apps that require more resources than I have (for instance, when my Thinkpad was a PII 233 with 192MB of RAM, I was running Win98 under VirtualPC to play Sim City 3000)... VPC needing 500MB of RAM, and a processor at least twice as fast... yet OS/2 still ran it. I run WinXP in a virtual session on this machine - even though it has 200MB less RAM than VPC says it needs. I have Opera, Firefox, AVG, and quite a few other apps installed on it... it's about as speedy as XP on a similar clean box... OS/2 is just that much better at handling resources.

And I LOVE the fact that when eCS 2.0 comes out, every machine I have is far more overpowered than I need (even though some are quite ancient by computer standards). Heck, my webserver is only a Quad Xeon 550MHz... and I've successfully done load testing on it that shows it can handle over 3 million requests a day (with every one of them requiring server side scripts AND MySQL calls AND dynamic pages being built).

Don't get me wrong. Windows is great for a lot of people... I dont mind a little work to get a system running. Or a little work to find a suitable app for OS/2. My point in this one is that (even if Windows could handle such a load) Windows could NEVER handle that load on such an "underpowered" CPU with XP or up. And there are no fixes coming out for NT or 2000... so I would be FORCED to upgrade to XP - or more likely Vista/Server 200#.... and then be forced to upgrade the hardware just to keep the same performance/load capabilities... and then be forced to upgrade IIS (since the older versions for NT wont run on Server200? or Vista). Viscous cycle. Not for me.

Most users replace their machines every few years. This isnt an issue for most users... so DONT mistake this as a rant against other's choices - in OS's or hardware. Yeah, I may keep my gaming machine pretty state-of-the art... but my programming machines are 900MHz, 1GHz, and 300MHz... and will be replaced if and when they die... not before. I like to CHOOSE when I need to upgrade my hardware & software - yet still be able to upgrade my OS without having to upgrade the hardware and apps.

I know all of that is very long winded, but I was trying to point out (and hope I have) that what a lot of alternative OS users (Mac, Linux, OS/2) say isnt bashing against Windows USERS... it's being upset over the choices (or lack thereof) that MS leaves them.

-Robert
« Last Edit: 2007.10.11, 09:00:54 by RobertM »
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Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #23 on: 2007.10.11, 10:17:46 »
Holy crap. Ill try and respond in turn as well as I can.

Now the API situation is more clear. I did not know that things were that muddled up behind what I see. Like you pointed out, I am simply and end user, though I think I am above average in my understanding of computers compared to most other people.

In regards to whether or not I am kidding myself about XPs performance vs OS/2... No, I am really not.
I have a modest computer. 512mb RAM, 40gb IDE drive, P4 3.06ghz (single core HT) and a FX5500. It takes windows XP 42 seconds to get to my desktop. OS/2 takes a minute 23 seconds. Windows XP can decompress and move files much faster than OS/2 seems to be able. It also deletes files faster, and I dont have to worry about is my trash can going to actually delete it, or will I have to reboot, put in blackhole and try again? Trashcan may just be an eWP/xWP issue. In terms of phyiscal memory usage, both OS are running almost EXACTLY the same ammount of RAM, and XP manages to look nicer while doing so (subjective of course).
Ive found the OS/2 WPS to be very snappy and quick, which is nice, but simple things can sometimes cause slight hangs. Now, speaking of hangs, OS/2 is very, very prone (for me) to hangs, and unresponisve apps can almost never be closed without losing the WPS responsiveness and the need for a reboot. I dont like the SIQ limitation and the freezes it can invariably cause. Ive almost made a keyboard/monitor hybrid due to something dumb locking up and losing my whole damn work environment. Simply does not happen on XP. Windows 98 and ME? Ubetcha. I <3 NT kernel for that.

In terms of backwards compatability for Windows XP, I have yet to run into an issue. I may just be lucky in that regard. In terms of OS/2, I dont even know what the apps that Im using were orignally intended for, but I am familiar with how well it handles all older applications for OS/2.

Apple is an isolated product with isolated hardware, I hardly think their example applies here when x86 hardware/software is so varied.

I beta-tested Vista and was generally happy with it. It ran most everything of mine without issue, except Sonique and AIM 5.5 with deadaim, both times I was informed of potential compatibility issues and was told of upgrades/possible fixes. That was acceptable, I did not expect sonique to work great seeing as DirectAudio was replaced in Vista.

I was under the impression that OpenOffice's lackluster performance was due to it being based mostly on Java (which isnt exactly lightning fast) and also having to use the Innotek JVM which is itself running through some sort of Windows abstraction layer or emulation through the Innotek Runtime. Full on native port of OpenOffice might prove faster, but we would need a new, native JVM for that. That aside, OpenOffice on my Xp box (I have it for the odd document format that Office XP cant recognize) is waaaay faster.

Firefox on OS/2 absolutely TANKS if any skins or addons are applied to it. Its to the point where its not even browsable. Im guessing its something to do with how PM renders graphics or calls to the display adapter.

In terms of long-term performance, I have had this XP install for almost 2 years without incident or noticble degradation in performance. However, OS/2 gets re-installed very often due mostly to my lacking OS/2 skill and also partly to its tendency to get bogged down and just generally slow for, to me, unbeknownst reasons. Id love to see a JFS degrament utility to see if this is the issue at hand, or if its .ini bloat or some other OS/2 weirdness that may very well be my fault.

Never thought on why Windows apps were large, it never really is a concern. I have more than enough space for all my productivity software and documents, ideally, all I should be doing. However, my large collection of my photos, music, videos, and games take up an inordinate ammount, and I am fairly certain they would do so no matter the OS.

You dont paint a rosy picture for getting any windows applications to work under OS/2. I had no idea it was that difficult. I assumed that the similar nature of windows and OS/2 would lend some ease to the process, but my knowledge is not worth much in this regard. Again, how does WINE do it then?

As for the hardware issues, you cant blame MS for hardware vendors not having current drivers. Im fairly certain hardware drivers for OS/2 Warp 3 do NOT work for OS/2 Warp 4, and I dont think this driver issue is exclusive to MS operating systems.

For software that is old running on XP, I use photoshop 7 or above, after affects 6.5 or above, Office XP and above, AIM 5.5 and above, Steam, Winzip, Sonique, Nero, and PowerDVD. Also Minitab, Adobe Reader (wish Lucide ran on windows, its so friggin fast), DC++ and ABC for torrents. Thats my software package, same as it was on Windows 2k Pro, same as it was on Windows ME and 98se when I had them. I (personally) have NOT had issues with windows backwards compatability, and I think (to me) its better than apple launching the classic emulation environment when you want to load something. Its a friggin chore on my friends Imac when I want to use Aliens V Predator. Again, I guess Im that ONE windows guy thats lucky and doesnt have issues...

Im fairly certain Apple forces upgrade cycles as well, as would IBM if they hadnt stopped OS/2 oh, 13 years ago. I called IBM for some questions on getting Warp4 to install and 4 different tech reps didnt even know what OS/2 was. Yeah, IBM really sticks with their product.

Ive run XP Sp2 on its absolute minimum requirements, IE, my craptop. My Compaq Presario 1240. I cant even get eCS (2.xx) to install properly on it, though 1.2mr does MOSTLY work, but only after a tedious process of transferring updates and drivers to it via floppy because USB is broken until god knows how many updates are applied. Also, no NIC drivers for my PCMCIA cards, so no broad-band network loving for updates there.
I also had a 486 computer with 16mb of ram runnign windows 95 for a good 3 years. Never let me down (well, not until the power supply bit it). That came after the Warp 4 aptiva we had bit the dust hard.

As for MS bashing, I guess its okay, but I really dont see why. It seems to be the same shit from every company, IBM and MOST especially Apple. They are a heinous bunch... They are, after all, companies, and the bottom line is really all that figures in. I donno, for me, I have had the best experience on Windows. Started with Mac, never again. Went to OS/2, liked it, it died, went to Windows. Now Ive been Windows since 3.11 and Im keeping it. It has my productivity software, it has my games, and it has my drivers for print/scan and everything else I want, my media players (hardware) included. I want OS/2 because of a touch of nostalgia, and beacuse its a bit different and I like how it works, though I cant really put my finger on it. However, it does not have the hardware support I need, it can NOT run the games I want, it lacks in the MTP/PTP department, and as of yet, can NOT print to my printer or acquire images from my scanner, thus rending it useless to me as a productivity, multimedia, or gaming platform. What does that leave it as? Web browsing and hobby OS. :\ I paid a crapload (for a college student budget) to have only a hobby OS. I have yet to find a decent image editing suite (I almost got Photoshop 7 to run in Odin), OpenOffice does not cut it for productivity, MrMessage is coming along so my socialization is there, no games really run, and I am terrified of updating my hardware because I fear that OS/2 wont run. I want to rebuild on a Core2duo with a lot of ram, and a pretty 7950GT and a Western Digital Raptor X drive. Why? Cause its going to flyyy and I can finally game at over 15fps. Im tired of only running Quake3 moderately well and CS 1.6 well. Im done being stuck in 2000. However, I fear that if i get this new hardware, my investment in eCS will be in vain because it will most likely not install or run properly.

This all however, was beside my orignal point.
I want Win32 API compatability, I suspect others do as well. I am not a programmer, and so I guess I have gone far past my usefullness in this regard. I think Odin should be revived with a bounty, but Im not sure how to go about starting a bounty with an achievable goal. The impression I get is that its too hard and should be left where it is. I see that as another nail in the coffin for keeping eCS attractive. Like it or not, the modern consumer wants a flashy UI (PM is definately dated in this regard), out of the box hardware support (eCS is spotty here), program support for their favorite apps (wealth of OpenSource in Linuxes, and WINE apps too, OS/2 is however lacking severely) and a good user experience (I like the WPS alot). Id like to see OS/2 succeed, it holds a place in my heart and my wallet, and any competition always yields better products.

Please note, its 4am for me, so I may or may not have rambled beyond comprehension. I apologize.

RobertM

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #24 on: 2007.10.11, 11:40:31 »
Holy crap. Ill try and respond in turn as well as I can.

Now the API situation is more clear. I did not know that things were that muddled up behind what I see. Like you pointed out, I am simply and end user, though I think I am above average in my understanding of computers compared to most other people.

In regards to whether or not I am kidding myself about XPs performance vs OS/2... No, I am really not.
I have a modest computer. 512mb RAM, 40gb IDE drive, P4 3.06ghz (single core HT) and a FX5500. It takes windows XP 42 seconds to get to my desktop. OS/2 takes a minute 23 seconds.

Here's the thing... when OS/2 gets to the desktop, it is ready to go. Windows XP isnt. XP "boots" faster than previous versions (appears to) because it loads a lot of stuff after the desktop is up that used to be loaded before the desktop is up. OS/2 loads everything before the desktop. The only thing loaded after the OS/2 desktop are applications in the startup folder (and perhaps Network server connects). OS/2 and XP take a similar amount of time to be fully ready to load... though it does vary per machine with OS/2 (some hardware seems to take longer, no matter how fast it is - and the file systems can take longer to load - HPFS/HPFS386 in particular, because they do a bit more file system checking before reporting they are ready).

Windows XP can decompress and move files much faster than OS/2 seems to be able.

What are you using to decompress files under Windows? Using eZip and (the latest) unzip, I find OS/2 is equally as fast. On JFS it flies. On HPFS, there is a little more overhead and a bit more delays. Try JFS for your data and app partitions... will increase speed greatly (or HPFS386 if you have it, which is nearly as good).

It also deletes files faster,

Depends on how you delete it. If you do it through the desktop, it will take longer. OS/2 has more overhead because it uses symbolic links that need to be dealt with as well. The tradeoff for speed is balanced by the fact that (unless you corrupt your OS/2 INI files) OS/2 doesnt break shortcuts, and will delete every shortcut to an object as well (when you delete the original object). Deleting the stuff from command-line is instananeous. For large delete functions I use xDel. I also modify the WPS (very very easy) to make xDel an option on all my pop-up menus for folders, that way I can use it to delete whole folder trees very quickly when I dont care about extraneous entries in the INI files or know there wont be leftover shortcuts.


and I dont have to worry about is my trash can going to actually delete it, or will I have to reboot, put in blackhole and try again? Trashcan may just be an eWP/xWP issue.

I dont use the TrashCan - ever... so I cant comment on that. If an object is in use or locked though, yes OS/2 can be a pain when it comes to deleting it. Safety feature. Annoying as it is.

In terms of phyiscal memory usage, both OS are running almost EXACTLY the same ammount of RAM, and XP manages to look nicer while doing so (subjective of course).

Easily fixable with WPSWizard or Styler/2 and some new icons (IconThemer to change them all globally, or manually change the templates).


Ive found the OS/2 WPS to be very snappy and quick, which is nice, but simple things can sometimes cause slight hangs.

Yes. But both OS's have those problems... though in different areas. Some Windows ports (Firefox, OpenOffice) can make the UI sluggish when printing or saving. While some native OS/2 replacement apps (Lucide) fly in comparison to their comparable Windows counterparts (Acrobat). Windows though will bog down during AV or AntiSpyware scans, and doesnt multithread nearly as well.


Now, speaking of hangs, OS/2 is very, very prone (for me) to hangs, and unresponisve apps can almost never be closed without losing the WPS responsiveness and the need for a reboot.

If you haven't already, install CAD (latest version on Hobbes - very easy to install). Then simply hit CTRL-ALT-DEL and kill the offending app - no restart required. This works for almost every app. Also...
- Go into System Setup
- Open System
- Go to User Interface Tab
- Make sure Asynchronous Focus Change is enabled
- Set the time to something low (5 or so)

That will make OS/2 take focus away from a non-responding app in 1/2 a second (roughly). Simply hit CTRL-ESC or click on an empty area of the desktop or another open responding app, and the "hung" app will get a bigger grey border and be ignored till it starts responding.

I dont like the SIQ limitation and the freezes it can invariably cause. Ive almost made a keyboard/monitor hybrid due to something dumb locking up and losing my whole damn work environment. Simply does not happen on XP. Windows 98 and ME? Ubetcha. I <3 NT kernel for that.

It happens on XP... explorer does hang. It's just a little easier to get going again (usually) without CAD installed or Async Focus Change enabled and tuned correctly.


In terms of backwards compatability for Windows XP, I have yet to run into an issue. I may just be lucky in that regard.

Win98 apps and games, old NT apps, and such that were out when XP came out. Again, this is usually not an issue for someone who gets a version of Windows a few months to a year after it comes out as the software vendors have already updated their products. Just like buying software now, you have a much better chance of it running on Vista than when Vista came out (when 1/5 of what we had at CompUSA showed some sort of quirk).

In terms of OS/2, I dont even know what the apps that Im using were orignally intended for, but I am familiar with how well it handles all older applications for OS/2.

Apple is an isolated product with isolated hardware, I hardly think their example applies here when x86 hardware/software is so varied.

Yes, it is... but that wasnt my point. The point is, Apple went from a proprietary OS, running on a Motorola 68000 RISC chip to a *nix based OS running on an Intel CISC based chip, and still maintained backwards compatibility with older apps written for their older proprietary OS. That was an accomplishment. MS has been working from the same code base for their OS for well over a decade, for the same hardware, and broken compatibility with each release (again, keep in mind the CPU and related chipset is all MS needs to worry about. Drivers for other hardware are written by the hardware manufacturers - and the APIs that keep getting broken have nothing to do with hardware - we arent talking drivers here, we are talking OS APIs).

I beta-tested Vista and was generally happy with it. It ran most everything of mine without issue, except Sonique and AIM 5.5 with deadaim, both times I was informed of potential compatibility issues and was told of upgrades/possible fixes. That was acceptable, I did not expect sonique to work great seeing as DirectAudio was replaced in Vista.

And then, like every other release, more stuff stopped working in the final release. But the point is, nothing should have changed in such old, well established APIs for you to have any problems - not to mention the problems on my (very short) Vista compatibility issue list in my previous post.

I was under the impression that OpenOffice's lackluster performance was due to it being based mostly on Java (which isnt exactly lightning fast) and also having to use the Innotek JVM which is itself running through some sort of Windows abstraction layer or emulation through the Innotek Runtime. Full on native port of OpenOffice might prove faster, but we would need a new, native JVM for that. That aside, OpenOffice on my Xp box (I have it for the odd document format that Office XP cant recognize) is waaaay faster.

Nope, no Java. In the newest version, none at all if memory serves. Earlier releases used Java for certain things... but there isnt support for it in the 2.X releases under OS/2.


Firefox on OS/2 absolutely TANKS if any skins or addons are applied to it. Its to the point where its not even browsable. Im guessing its something to do with how PM renders graphics or calls to the display adapter.

Yes and no. It is the way that the Windows calls are being re-mapped to OS/2's GDI. I think from having talked to some of the guys working on it, it's because it keeps calling Win_Invalidate_Rect and redrawing. I posted tips elsewhere in this forum on how to speed it up (delays Firefox's redraws, which makes it quite a bit more responsive). As for skins, certain skins will slow it to a crawl. I am using FormalGnome v2.0.5 which I find to be one of the faster ones. Everything is faster (page loads, tab switching, responsiveness) over many other skins I have tried. Why? I dont know - I think it is the same problem though. Especially with the skins that do timed menu displays and/or transparencies... with redraws being requested continuously (instead of when needed) it bogs things down.

In terms of long-term performance, I have had this XP install for almost 2 years without incident or noticble degradation in performance. However, OS/2 gets re-installed very often due mostly to my lacking OS/2 skill and also partly to its tendency to get bogged down and just generally slow for, to me, unbeknownst reasons. Id love to see a JFS degrament utility to see if this is the issue at hand, or if its .ini bloat or some other OS/2 weirdness that may very well be my fault.

Check Hobbes for a JFS defrag tool (though I thought there was one with OS/2 - never used it though). My laptop is going on 5 years no reinstall. This machine is on 2 (which is when I got it). My laptop locks rarely (Firefox being the cause). This machine is problematic (dying hardware). My Netfinity Server (7000 M10) has never crashed, and serves 8 different websites, SQL and FTP 24/7.


Never thought on why Windows apps were large, it never really is a concern. I have more than enough space for all my productivity software and documents, ideally, all I should be doing.

Describe was only a few megabytes, as is Maul Publisher. Lucide is tiny. OO and Acrobat Reader are massive in comparison. The only things Lucide are lacking is fancy buttons and toolbars, which wont add to it's size. But then there are the OS components you most often see... like 15MB to open a folder using explorer (allocated at system start), and no noticeable memory use under OS/2 (because folders are just transient objects and some bitmaps for buttons and titlebars, instead of most of a web browser like it is in Windows). Take a look at the size of WMP11 compared to mPlayer or KMP for OS/2. Yeah, there is no fancy GUI for mPlayer or KMP, but the fancy GUI would only take a few KB of space... and the two are tiny in comparison (and play more files than WMP... and mPlayer can also transcode most formats). With a nice GUI, they would still be much smaller.


However, my large collection of my photos, music, videos, and games take up an inordinate ammount, and I am fairly certain they would do so no matter the OS.

Indeed, and we cant do without them.  :D
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RobertM

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #25 on: 2007.10.11, 11:41:08 »
PART 2
You dont paint a rosy picture for getting any windows applications to work under OS/2. I had no idea it was that difficult. I assumed that the similar nature of windows and OS/2 would lend some ease to the process, but my knowledge is not worth much in this regard. Again, how does WINE do it then?

I *THINK* similar to Odin - and code has been ported back and forth between the two if memory serves (or had been at one time). Check out the Odin pages on NetLabs...


As for the hardware issues, you cant blame MS for hardware vendors not having current drivers. Im fairly certain hardware drivers for OS/2 Warp 3 do NOT work for OS/2 Warp 4, and I dont think this driver issue is exclusive to MS operating systems.

Actually, yes they do. Almost the entire OS can be interchanged... drivers, TCP/IP, NetBIOS, GUI, CMD sessions, task handlers, you name it). It's ALL modular. I can install Warp 3, and then the Warp Server components from WSeB (3 releases later). I can install eCS drivers under Warp 3 and 4 (which I have done on my laptop, then went to WSeB. I can install Warp 3 drivers on WSeB and eCS. No problems. Only some very ancient drivers (usually OS/2 1.x drivers)  wont work because they were made for 16bit OS/2 on 16bit hardware (locks memory above 16MB). 

For software that is old running on XP, I use photoshop 7 or above, after affects 6.5 or above, Office XP and above, AIM 5.5 and above, Steam, Winzip, Sonique, Nero, and PowerDVD. Also Minitab, Adobe Reader (wish Lucide ran on windows, its so friggin fast), DC++ and ABC for torrents. Thats my software package, same as it was on Windows 2k Pro, same as it was on Windows ME and 98se when I had them. I (personally) have NOT had issues with windows backwards compatability, and I think (to me) its better than apple launching the classic emulation environment when you want to load something. Its a friggin chore on my friends Imac when I want to use Aliens V Predator. Again, I guess Im that ONE windows guy thats lucky and doesnt have issues...

No, you arent the only one. Again, depends on the software, and/or whether it's been updated. Some people are lucky... some are not. Again, keep in mind I was a tech for 20+ years... so while you and many others may never have had issues, the many people who did came to me with those issues. But in all the years OS/2World has been up, have you seen one person complain about older software not running because something changed on OS/2? Also, as for MacOSX, I think Apple changed things so that older 68000 code runs like a native app...

Im fairly certain Apple forces upgrade cycles as well, as would IBM if they hadnt stopped OS/2 oh, 13 years ago.

IBM is still working on OS/2. Unless you have a support contract with them, or buy eCS, you wont see those updates. It still requires as little hardware. Where do you think the kernel and networking updates have come from, or the numerous device driver fixpacks?


I called IBM for some questions on getting Warp4 to install and 4 different tech reps didnt even know what OS/2 was. Yeah, IBM really sticks with their product.

If you have (or buy) a software support contract, they'll gladly talk to you and help you a dozen different ways, and provide you with a number directly to someone who knows OS/2 inside and out. Cheaper to buy eCS and deal with Serenity - who if they cant help, can call IBM for an answer that wont cost you a massive IBM support contract.

Ive run XP Sp2 on its absolute minimum requirements, IE, my craptop. My Compaq Presario 1240. I cant even get eCS (2.xx) to install properly on it, though 1.2mr does MOSTLY work, but only after a tedious process of transferring updates and drivers to it via floppy because USB is broken until god knows how many updates are applied.

Yes, driver support is an issue with eCS 1.2MR... and eCS 2.0 is still beta. Some machines (like my Netfinity) are a dream. A lot of new machines I have installed for clients have been a dream, while a bunch have been a pain in the butt (non-standard SATA support, funky, uber-generic gigabit ethernet, etc).


Also, no NIC drivers for my PCMCIA cards, so no broad-band network loving for updates there.

Which card? Have you tried the GenMAC drivers or Chuck McKinnis' NicPak? If not, there is one other place that helped me find drivers for just about anywhere... dont remember the link off the top of my head, but it is in a Thinkpad T23 topic that's recently been on the board (3 days ago was the last post).

I also had a 486 computer with 16mb of ram runnign windows 95 for a good 3 years. Never let me down (well, not until the power supply bit it). That came after the Warp 4 aptiva we had bit the dust hard.

And amazingly, OS/2 will still run on it... though the eCS default installer will bomb on that little memory.

As for MS bashing, I guess its okay, but I really dont see why. It seems to be the same shit from every company, IBM and MOST especially Apple.

IBM and Apple didnt plan upgrade cycles into their software. They both did take different paths, but both were good. Apple included and integrated everything, while IBM allowed you to buy much of the OS piecemeal until WSeB (which included most everything). And the increase in hardware needed has been minimal for both. OS/2 is still snappy on a Pentium 1... XP wont load on it. Vista? hah!  ;)


They are a heinous bunch... They are, after all, companies, and the bottom line is really all that figures in. I donno, for me, I have had the best experience on Windows. Started with Mac, never again. Went to OS/2, liked it, it died, went to Windows. Now Ive been Windows since 3.11 and Im keeping it. It has my productivity software, it has my games,

I use it for games, and the odd PDF creation that OpenOffice for OS/2 bombs on (because I am too lazy to install ePDF which would achieve the same results on OS/2).


and it has my drivers for print/scan

Sane & Tame for OS/2. Works great, supports a ton of scanners. Printing - either native OS/2 drivers, or CUPS. Covers pretty much everything. Yeah, pain to install... but will do the job. I think a lot of that will be installed automatically when eCS 2.0 (and CUPS) is finished.

and everything else I want, my media players (hardware) included.

"Media players (hardware)"? Not sure what you mean. OS/2 plays as much media (more actually)... but just requires a decent GUI for the players. Pretty easy to integrate them all into the WPS though for easy playing of anything. Does need a Flash plugin update... but Paul Smedley is finishing that as we speak (gnash).


I want OS/2 because of a touch of nostalgia, and beacuse its a bit different and I like how it works, though I cant really put my finger on it. However, it does not have the hardware support I need, it can NOT run the games I want,

Yeah, games support is lacking. For now. Odin would need a lot of work to fix that... and with DirectX having changed (massively) again, it's back to the drawing board.

it lacks in the MTP/PTP department,

From what I understand, this is done or near finished... I'll make a post if I find out more. Though why they created a proprietary format for media-over-network, I dont know... (oh, yes I do... lock out other OS's). Something is being ported from the Linux world if memory serves.

and as of yet, can NOT print to my printer

What type printer? It probably can. I will try to help you get it working.

or acquire images from my scanner,

What type scanner (Sane and Tame have come a long way)?


thus rending it useless to me as a productivity, multimedia, or gaming platform. What does that leave it as? Web browsing and hobby OS. :\ I paid a crapload (for a college student budget) to have only a hobby OS. I have yet to find a decent image editing suite (I almost got Photoshop 7 to run in Odin),

I have Illustrator 9 working under a very old version of Odin (thus should work with newer versions of Odin as well). Also, check out Pixel for OS/2, Embellish, and GIMP (v2.2.8) GIMP is much like Photoshop.

OpenOffice does not cut it for productivity, MrMessage is coming along so my socialization is there,

Try SIM for OS/2 - much more AIM like (though file transfer is still unfinished). Very pretty, some neat plugins, and nice features.
http://eros2-dev.blogspot.com/2007/03/sim-for-os2.html

no games really run, and I am terrified of updating my hardware because I fear that OS/2 wont run.

I went from a Compaq Presario 5000 to an HP who knows what (someone stuck an HP mobo in a generic box) with a high end 512MB ATI card... no problems whatsoever.


I want to rebuild on a Core2duo with a lot of ram, and a pretty 7950GT and a Western Digital Raptor X drive. Why? Cause its going to flyyy and I can finally game at over 15fps. Im tired of only running Quake3 moderately well and CS 1.6 well. Im done being stuck in 2000. However, I fear that if i get this new hardware, my investment in eCS will be in vain because it will most likely not install or run properly.

Will install, and will work properly from that list. eCS v2 will also take advantage of the multicore (been a lot of ACPI updates in the last few weeks).


This all however, was beside my orignal point.
I want Win32 API compatability, I suspect others do as well.

Most definitely. VirtualPC is great for many of my day to day tasks (well, I rarely use it, except to test things in IE... but I could use it for Photoshop, etc if I didnt have OS/2 equivalents installed)... but VPC sucks for many games, and sound support is kinda sketchy for most sound cards.


I am not a programmer, and so I guess I have gone far past my usefullness in this regard. I think Odin should be revived with a bounty, but Im not sure how to go about starting a bounty with an achievable goal.

Near impossible based off the manpower needed. Now, if something promising materializes on the Linux front, that may change. If there is something portable from Linux to OS/2, then we do have a few very talented people who may be coerced into doing the port. But not enough of them to maintain Odin at the level it needs to be at.  :'(



The impression I get is that its too hard and should be left where it is. I see that as another nail in the coffin for keeping eCS attractive.

No, not really... with Linux gaining momentum, eCS can as well... since it is pretty easy to get Linux software running under OS/2 (and Linux ports fly under OS/2 just like they do under Linux... that's where KMP, mPlayer, and I think SIM came from).

Like it or not, the modern consumer wants a flashy UI (PM is definately dated in this regard),

Again, easily changeable... with WPSWizard and xWorkplace in the new version of eCS, it'll hardly be dated in appearance - and yet keep the functionality and extendability that the Windows UI STILL lacks. That was something else I didnt understand... MS has a license to use the OS/2 GUI code in whole or part... they could have at least grabbed the part that handles shortcuts, and pop-up menu extendability... yet they didnt and that part of Windows is still broken... from Win95 till now.


out of the box hardware support (eCS is spotty here),

But getting far better pretty quickly. Soon virtually every network card, (already) most video cards, (already) most sound cards, (already) virtually any hard drive mobo chipset, (soon) virtually every printer, (already) many scanners.


program support for their favorite apps (wealth of OpenSource in Linuxes, and WINE apps too, OS/2 is however lacking severely)

Suggest open source Linux apps to be ported... there is a pretty good porting team here. Check the forums for a list of ones already suggested.


and a good user experience (I like the WPS alot). Id like to see OS/2 succeed, it holds a place in my heart and my wallet, and any competition always yields better products.

True.

Please note, its 4am for me, so I may or may not have rambled beyond comprehension. I apologize.

Heh... YOU apologize? Like *I* didnt ramble on in my last post? I will accept your apology for rambling if you accept mine for rambling... hows that?  ;D

-Robert
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Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #26 on: 2007.10.11, 12:50:48 »
What are you using to decompress files under Windows? Using eZip and (the latest) unzip, I find OS/2 is equally as fast. On JFS it flies. On HPFS, there is a little more overhead and a bit more delays. Try JFS for your data and app partitions... will increase speed greatly (or HPFS386 if you have it, which is nearly as good).
Using JFS, love it :)
Easily fixable with WPSWizard or Styler/2 and some new icons (IconThemer to change them all globally, or manually change the templates).
Have WPSWizard, have IconThemes, and have Styler/2 (I use the full install of the eCS 2.0 betas which include all except WPSWizard). OS/2 is still lacking a decent anti-aliasing engine and the icons aren't as pretty as XP can be. I hear that maybe will change with a Cairo icon rendering engine.

Yes. But both OS's have those problems... though in different areas. Some Windows ports (Firefox, OpenOffice) can make the UI sluggish when printing or saving. While some native OS/2 replacement apps (Lucide) fly in comparison to their comparable Windows counterparts (Acrobat). Windows though will bog down during AV or AntiSpyware scans, and doesnt multithread nearly as well.
I suppose it can lag during AV scans, but thats usually in my down-time. Lucide is an amazing application. I really want it for windows, I hate acrobat :\

If you haven't already, install CAD (latest version on Hobbes - very easy to install). Then simply hit CTRL-ALT-DEL and kill the offending app - no restart required. This works for almost every app. Also...
- Go into System Setup
- Open System
- Go to User Interface Tab
- Make sure Asynchronous Focus Change is enabled
- Set the time to something low (5 or so)

That will make OS/2 take focus away from a non-responding app in 1/2 a second (roughly). Simply hit CTRL-ESC or click on an empty area of the desktop or another open responding app, and the "hung" app will get a bigger grey border and be ignored till it starts responding.
The eCS 2.0 betas have CAD and TOP, and I make use of it. Regardless, many applications that hang can not be killed using TOP or CAD's window list using normal kill or hard kill. Most often, this requires a reboot. I have my focus change set at 5 already, and the apps that can have focus removed generally dont have issues being closed. Some lock up very hard though.

Nope, no Java. In the newest version, none at all if memory serves. Earlier releases used Java for certain things... but there isnt support for it in the 2.X releases under OS/2.
Good to know. Are we going to be getting a full native port soon? Or is it still going to be a Windows port?

Yes and no. It is the way that the Windows calls are being re-mapped to OS/2's GDI. I think from having talked to some of the guys working on it, it's because it keeps calling Win_Invalidate_Rect and redrawing. I posted tips elsewhere in this forum on how to speed it up (delays Firefox's redraws, which makes it quite a bit more responsive). As for skins, certain skins will slow it to a crawl. I am using FormalGnome v2.0.5 which I find to be one of the faster ones. Everything is faster (page loads, tab switching, responsiveness) over many other skins I have tried. Why? I dont know - I think it is the same problem though. Especially with the skins that do timed menu displays and/or transparencies... with redraws being requested continuously (instead of when needed) it bogs things down.
Yeah, for that reason I just keep the normal skin and no add-ons. Seamonkey doesnt bog down as much, so it gets the updated sea-monkey skin thats included.

Check Hobbes for a JFS defrag tool (though I thought there was one with OS/2 - never used it though). My laptop is going on 5 years no reinstall. This machine is on 2 (which is when I got it). My laptop locks rarely (Firefox being the cause). This machine is problematic (dying hardware). My Netfinity Server (7000 M10) has never crashed, and serves 8 different websites, SQL and FTP 24/7.
I thought I checked, but Im stupid so I will check again. This computer has some strange lock-ups with random things, most notably the debug code that Marty Amodeo uses in his test versions of MrMessage, which makes it very hard for me to help test it out and give him suggestions. I think it may be bad RAM, but who knows.

Indeed, and we cant do without them.  :D
Indeed not :) Now, If I could share them all between Windows and OS/2... Utopia.

Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #27 on: 2007.10.11, 13:16:36 »
I *THINK* similar to Odin - and code has been ported back and forth between the two if memory serves (or had been at one time). Check out the Odin pages on NetLabs...
Okay, cause I was wondering if porting WINE would be a good place to start, or would it be best to just look to the windows DLL files first and port from there. Again, I donno what Im talking about...

Actually, yes they do. Almost the entire OS can be interchanged... drivers, TCP/IP, NetBIOS, GUI, CMD sessions, task handlers, you name it). It's ALL modular. I can install Warp 3, and then the Warp Server components from WSeB (3 releases later). I can install eCS drivers under Warp 3 and 4 (which I have done on my laptop, then went to WSeB. I can install Warp 3 drivers on WSeB and eCS. No problems. Only some very ancient drivers (usually OS/2 1.x drivers)  wont work because they were made for 16bit OS/2 on 16bit hardware (locks memory above 16MB). 
Tasty hat  :) (as in im eating my hat because I was very much wrong)

IBM is still working on OS/2. Unless you have a support contract with them, or buy eCS, you wont see those updates. It still requires as little hardware. Where do you think the kernel and networking updates have come from, or the numerous device driver fixpacks?
I do have the Service plan from eCS, why I have the betas :) I knew those updates came from IBM, but I was pretty certain that they have stopped developing and fixing after the support period ended in 2005 or 2006. They havnt?


If you have (or buy) a software support contract, they'll gladly talk to you and help you a dozen different ways, and provide you with a number directly to someone who knows OS/2 inside and out. Cheaper to buy eCS and deal with Serenity - who if they cant help, can call IBM for an answer that wont cost you a massive IBM support contract.
This was pre-eCS, and partially helped me decide to get eCS because I wanted another OS, and OS/2 wasnt installing.

Yes, driver support is an issue with eCS 1.2MR... and eCS 2.0 is still beta. Some machines (like my Netfinity) are a dream. A lot of new machines I have installed for clients have been a dream, while a bunch have been a pain in the butt (non-standard SATA support, funky, uber-generic gigabit ethernet, etc).
^ That is EXACTLY what I fear in purchasing a new computer. I know XP will be fine with it.

Which card? Have you tried the GenMAC drivers or Chuck McKinnis' NicPak? If not, there is one other place that helped me find drivers for just about anywhere... dont remember the link off the top of my head, but it is in a Thinkpad T23 topic that's recently been on the board (3 days ago was the last post).
I tried GenMac but there are too many for MPTS to work and I didnt learn how to work around that until after I left it at home. I have a Microsoft MN-720 and a Belkin Wireless 54g Revision B. I think they should be supported, but I have not had the chance to try driver by driver yet.

I use it for games, and the odd PDF creation that OpenOffice for OS/2 bombs on (because I am too lazy to install ePDF which would achieve the same results on OS/2).
Gotta have my games. I dont generate PDFs, except through my HP scanning software. Only time I have needed it so far was when I scan my work in, and it does it for me..

Sane & Tame for OS/2. Works great, supports a ton of scanners. Printing - either native OS/2 drivers, or CUPS. Covers pretty much everything. Yeah, pain to install... but will do the job. I think a lot of that will be installed automatically when eCS 2.0 (and CUPS) is finished.
Have Sane/Tame, thus far, no luck. No scanning on the models I have tried. eCUPS I have not tested because, well, its not a neat little GUI thinger yet and I dont want to frig anything else up.

"Media players (hardware)"? Not sure what you mean. OS/2 plays as much media (more actually)... but just requires a decent GUI for the players. Pretty easy to integrate them all into the WPS though for easy playing of anything. Does need a Flash plugin update... but Paul Smedley is finishing that as we speak (gnash).
I wouldnt say more. DirectShow filters are very easy to find for almost all non-WMP supported codecs and containers, and once they are installed, its very nice. None of my multimedia plays in the WPS like it should, and by hardware media players I meant digital audio devices and portable media players :) Yeap, amped about Paul's GNASH and hopefully Firefox plugin to replace Innotek flash 7. w00ts. As for audio player, I use pm123 though it has a tendency to tank on large directories or not share the audio properly and lock up waiting.

Yeah, games support is lacking. For now. Odin would need a lot of work to fix that... and with DirectX having changed (massively) again, it's back to the drawing board.
Id say skip DX10, and work on DX9 support for Odin. Hell, go OpenGL too. It supports most of the stuff I want to run anyway. Plus, OS/2 already had an OpenGL implementation, so we have a starting point. Oooo, would that be a realistic bounty? A modern, current port of OpenGL? No MesaGL software render crap.

From what I understand, this is done or near finished... I'll make a post if I find out more. Though why they created a proprietary format for media-over-network, I dont know... (oh, yes I do... lock out other OS's). Something is being ported from the Linux world if memory serves.
MTP does have some advantages, I posted a bounty suggestion for a implementation for MTP (I got flamed relentlessly on the ecomstation news boards talking about it). PTP is supported through Cameraderie and another application, though I believe it should be through the WPS so the camera mounts as a device in the drives object or on the desktop. I hate having all this extra software to do stuff :\

What type printer? It probably can. I will try to help you get it working.
What type scanner (Sane and Tame have come a long way)?
Hewlett Packard PSC 1210xi All-in-one, on eCS is all-in-none :( No luck with Sane/Tame. I have heard that the omni driver can support my printer, but I have tried a good 10 entries in the HP omni driver and no luck.

I have Illustrator 9 working under a very old version of Odin (thus should work with newer versions of Odin as well). Also, check out Pixel for OS/2, Embellish, and GIMP (v2.2.8) GIMP is much like Photoshop.
Pixel is expensive. Embellish I dont like using (too confusing), GIMP for everblue did not work well at all. I dont know how to use xFree86 so :\ Queency is the only thing that was half-way decent and easy to use, but it crashes all the friggin time.

Try SIM for OS/2 - much more AIM like (though file transfer is still unfinished). Very pretty, some neat plugins, and nice features.
http://eros2-dev.blogspot.com/2007/03/sim-for-os2.html
:D SIM is the reason why I want to help Marty make MrMessage better and more powerful. No offense to eros, but SIM is absolute crap. Its crap under windows and eCS, I think its just the program. It will murder your buddy lists, destroy profiles, and does not actually send or recieve messages well, nor does the file transfer work. It looks pretty, and that is all. MrMessage is the only viable option for OS/2.

Will install, and will work properly from that list. eCS v2 will also take advantage of the multicore (been a lot of ACPI updates in the last few weeks).
Yeah, been watching it. I have the latest ACPI of 3.03 right now. Too bad SNAP is dead, I want hardware support for the newer Nvidia cards :\

Most definitely. VirtualPC is great for many of my day to day tasks (well, I rarely use it, except to test things in IE... but I could use it for Photoshop, etc if I didnt have OS/2 equivalents installed)... but VPC sucks for many games, and sound support is kinda sketchy for most sound cards.
Virtualization is not an option for me :\

Near impossible based off the manpower needed. Now, if something promising materializes on the Linux front, that may change. If there is something portable from Linux to OS/2, then we do have a few very talented people who may be coerced into doing the port. But not enough of them to maintain Odin at the level it needs to be at.  :'(
Damn :C


No, not really... with Linux gaining momentum, eCS can as well... since it is pretty easy to get Linux software running under OS/2 (and Linux ports fly under OS/2 just like they do under Linux... that's where KMP, mPlayer, and I think SIM came from).
Yeah, all decent applications, they feel lacking though. They need a PM native GUI interface, right now, they just feel slapped on, and they are.

Again, easily changeable... with WPSWizard and xWorkplace in the new version of eCS, it'll hardly be dated in appearance - and yet keep the functionality and extendability that the Windows UI STILL lacks. That was something else I didnt understand... MS has a license to use the OS/2 GUI code in whole or part... they could have at least grabbed the part that handles shortcuts, and pop-up menu extendability... yet they didnt and that part of Windows is still broken... from Win95 till now.
Yeah, I like many things about OS/2, but I greatly dislike not having a persistent navigable window with back/foward. Im too used to it, and its a pain for me to not have it in OS/2.

But getting far better pretty quickly. Soon virtually every network card, (already) most video cards, (already) most sound cards, (already) virtually any hard drive mobo chipset, (soon) virtually every printer, (already) many scanners.
Not the cards Im looking at. Panorama makes no metion of Nvidia cards, and Snap stopped after the 6600 for Nvidia. Im intel/Nvidia all the way, so I feel like Im kinda stuck.

Suggest open source Linux apps to be ported... there is a pretty good porting team here. Check the forums for a list of ones already suggested.
Donno enough about Linux, only used Ubuntu for a few days, then went back to eCS. My base is Windows, so the apps I will want will be from there, for better or worse.

Heh... YOU apologize? Like *I* didnt ramble on in my last post? I will accept your apology for rambling if you accept mine for rambling... hows that?  ;D
-Robert
Accepted.
So Odin is a yes, but I still donno how/if post a bounty? Does it need one?

abwillis

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #28 on: 2007.10.11, 19:09:28 »
Some WINE code has been used in Odin and I looked at updating some of it so that Lotus Notes would work better but ended up not having the time to continue that. 
I think the part you are misunderstanding about the idea of bounties for individual apps is that from your posts you seem to be under the impression that there would be separate releases of Odin for each app.  The idea is that when updates are made to get individual apps working then those updates go into the Odin codebase.  Then the same for the next app and so on.  It may well be that to get program X to work that porting over a WINE module or more will be the easiest way to do it which then could get more than just the one app working and make it easier for the next stage. 
This approach has several advantages:
1)  It is easy to express the goal so both parties will know that it has been reached,
2)  Someone that wants a particular app to work may well work on it for that reason as much as for the bounty.
3)  It progresses the entirety of Odin
4)  It is easier to determine what is missing and needed (or is there and not working correctly).
5)  Does not require as much programming ability/knowledge.  IOW, it takes less to determine and code what is needed for a single app than to try to do the entirety of Odin.  This opens the field up to more developers and is more likely to get several people working on it rather than just one or two.

It may be argued that it would be somewhat slower this way, but that is only true if someone were likely to begin full scale work on the job.  While this is not impossible, it is unlikely a bounty would be high enough to attract someone.  Someone that would do this would either require regular pay or someone that just wanted to do it to either learn or because they thought it was worthwhile (so that a bounty wouldn't really be an incentive). 
If you want to start a bounty for a complete Odin then that is your option and others may even contribute, I couldn't say.  I may even be wrong about whether it would be an incentive but I don't think so.  I am not trying to discourage you but rather help you to the goal you want (if not the direction).  You are wanting to climb the mountain peak to get there.  That is the shorter route but much harder than going on to the pass and crossing it. 
One example here.  If I were to take up on the bounty idea for Odin and do a bunch of coding, how would it be determined that it was complete?  Would it have to run all applications (unlikely), would it have to show that all documented API's were remapped (doesn't mean they would work right in all circumstances as referenced before).  For me, the bounty would not be an enticement if I didn't have a clear way of showing that it had been accomplished and for something as large as Odin completion it would take a huge bounty to make it an enticement. 
One other piece of note, even the idea of bounties for individual apps may not work... that being the nature of the bounty system, still requires someone to do it.  But it is more likely to be an enticement than a single Odin bounty.

Saijin_Naib

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Re: Current Status of the ODIN OS/2 Project
« Reply #29 on: 2007.10.12, 00:28:46 »
Okay, excellent. Thank you for the clarification. I was not sure about the internal workings and structure of Odin, but you have greatly cleared that up for me now.

So lets say I want to get Office XP (fully updated version from my XP partition) to run properly. Would that be too much for a starter application?
Should I go for something (hopefully) more simple like AIM 5.5.3599 with DeadAim?
Should I request a multimedia player, which may or may not work, like Sonique 1.96?
What would be the easiest and most beneficial program to set as the first target?

Here is my list of MUST have programs as of right now: 1 is must, 2 is want, 3 is would be nice

2)AIM 5.5.3599 with DeadAIM

3)Lycos Sonique 1.96

2)DC++ (valknut is close, but cant connect to my school's hub in anything put passive mode which is restricted)

2)Minitab 14 Student Edition [runs on 2k] (14 full requires XP, so some possible difficulties/dependencies there?)

3)Online Conversion Pro (neat little freeware unit converter, yes theres a website, but the prog is nice too)

3)Rio Music Manager (would be nice to have a method of putting music on my Rio Karma once i fix it)

1)Microsoft Office XP (own a licence, its on my XP partition) Must, must, must have.

3)Google Video Player (Not necessary, but would be kinda cool to view my .gvp files from eCS)

1)Google Video Uploader (Way better performance than the web upload)

2)Steam (I know, no directX in eCS yet, but we do have OpenGL and the older half-life games may run with OpenGL 1.2 gold)

3)Samsung PC Studio 3 (probably mad dependencies on Windows Media player and other Windows core components, so probably difficult, but phone management would be nice)

1)Another Bittorrent Client (a GUI bittorrent application I use and enjoy, based mostly on python so should not be too difficult to port over to eCS?)

1)Adobe Photoshop 7 or above (with Image Ready)-A good image editing software is sorely missing from eCS

3)Adobe Premiere 6.5 or above (with after effects?)- Great movie suite, OS/2 doesnt really have any?

2)Microsoft Paint (OS/2 [afaik] is lacking a nice little bitmap paint program that is simplistic and fast like paint)

So thats my list, the rest would be multimedia software and games, and those kinda dont really apply.
So what is the best one to start with and why?