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LVM-less USB MSDs?

Started by StefanZ, 2011.12.24, 23:02:03

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sXwamp

#15
Quote from: DougB on 2011.12.30, 23:02:13
QuoteI'm willing to investigate the Warp 4 solution, does anyone have any suggestions

Hehe. IMO, that is just asking for trouble...

I disagree, what's the difference between booting for old Warp 4 disk & a bootable Warp 4 thumb drive (/w updated large drive support) ???

Especially, if you don't do any file system changes with the down leveled  Warp 4 setup.  I only need something that boots, so I can run my recovery setup from Back Again/2000.

Quote
Quote1) I cloned my M:(Maintenance-JFS) partition to the flash drive.
This might work, IF you get ALL of the references in CONFIG.SYS, and the INI files changed to match whatever the address of the flash drive is (that will change if you try it without LVM, and then it won't work, at all). You also need a BIOS that will support booting from your flash drive. My experience is that booting from flash drives is not exactly reliable. It also requires the Legacy USB support to be enabled, and that can cause other problems.


You missed the word cloned (DFsee), it does work -- just tried my C: primary and M: logical partitions. It took me less than 10 minutes.


Right now I'm installing OpenSuse 12.1 for Grub, eCom 2.1 (C:) primary, and eCom 2.1 (M:) logical, and the rest is formatted with FAT32 !!!

1) Now I have Linux that fully supports my hardware /w boot loader.
2) C: or M: that boots if Air-Boot is loss for some reason.
3) And, a FAT32 partition for data exchange.


I'm about to install plain Warp 4 and use Bootable as you suggested, great job on the config part of Bootable DougB !


Cheers,

Greggory

Joop

Quote from: DougB on 2011.12.30, 19:24:45
USB may have a new life, now that USB 3 is here (and we desperately need a driver for that), but I expect that USB 3 will also run out of steam in a few years. It is just too slow. ESATA is the best alternative, followed by NAS storage (with at least a 1Gb/s interface). Of course, something else may come along to replace all of them, and then we will need support for that.
Too slow? For what? For what reason you need super fast media?

Quote from: DougB on 2011.12.30, 19:24:45
Quote1. Some devices are large floppies, and have no partition table. We should recognize them as partitions anyway so we can use our FAT32 IFS.
This is true, but it is just plain lazy (on the part of the manufacturers) to not have proper partitions on something larger than 2 GB (that probably won't change). It would also be better to be able to use NTFS, rather than FAT32, but nobody seems to want to improve the NTFS driver. FAT32 is also not very good, but it is the only real alternative for sharing data between OS/2 and Windows.
Large floppy has no partition table and is just accepted, LVM or not. No, it won't change, it won't go over 2Gb, that's why it is large floppy. NTFS is from Microsoft and they want big money if you want to use it as a separate driver. It's their way to put you out of business, so why not act if they don't exist? Windows is not worth the trouble, it sucks all the way. They only get it right when they abandon the glue-on system. We have JFS, much better.

QuoteSince we really don't have proper access to the driver source
As far as I know this is not true.

QuoteWhat we need, is for IBM to release the source for OS/2 (probably won't happen).
Has nothing to do with the drivers, that's software around the kernel.

QuoteThen, we need hardware manufacturers to be more open about what their devices need to make them work, so we can create new drivers (probably won't happen).
You can forget that, they just don't reply to specific questions, even if you could find out by yourself if you would buy all the models.
In USA you could raise an act as it is not free enterprise in this way. In their way they pushing Windows and in a less way Apple. Everything else is omitted. I think there are some agreements between Microsoft and other companies we are not allowed to know of.
Trouble is to proof it.

QuoteWe also need a few thousand competent programmers, who are willing to donate their time (probably won't happen).
a few thousand?, even at Microsoft's there are far less busy with a project.

QuoteMuch testing of new software needs to be done, and all it takes is a bit of education about how to do that, and how to make proper problem reports, and many more people can help out. Complaining in the forums is not helpful, although venting some frustration probably doesn't hurt the individual who does it.
The major problem is that I know very few people who can do tasks the same way time after time.

regards,
Joop


Joop

Quote from: sXwamp on 2011.12.31, 13:40:29
Especially, if you don't do any file system changes with the down leveled  Warp 4 setup.  I only need something that boots, so I can run my recovery setup from Back Again/2000.

Then your backup strategy is wrong. If I need a backup I'm sure my system is seriously down. So the availability of your OS might be questionable.

Regards,
Joop

sXwamp

#18
Quote from: Joop on 2011.12.31, 14:01:47
Quote from: sXwamp on 2011.12.31, 13:40:29
Especially, if you don't do any file system changes with the down leveled  Warp 4 setup.  I only need something that boots, so I can run my recovery setup from Back Again/2000.

Then your backup strategy is wrong. If I need a backup I'm sure my system is seriously down. So the availability of your OS might be questionable.

Regards,
Joop

Well, I have bootable CDs.  But this thread is on LVM-less USB MSDs and I would like to be able to use my new Flash drive (less than 1inch in size).

Not to mention everything else can be booted off a Flash drive these days, it's pretty bad that we have to use FAT16 to get a working solution !


RobertM

IIRC, LVM-less external MSDs are not going to happen in this day and age. First, as I noted below, LVM has been a part of Warp since Warp *4* Fixpack #?. Secondly, along with LVM, there were other updates (part and parcel to the whole disk thingy) that work alongside it. Those updates are required for media over a certain size - for most people, that makes non-LVM setups unusable (ie: their hard disks will not work without the other updates).

A not necessarily ideal but more suitable solution would be some sort of automatic script that used the dfsee engine to LVM the media on insertion.


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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aschn

#20
Quote from: RobertM on 2011.12.31, 18:34:58
LVM has been a part of Warp since Warp *4* Fixpack #?

Fixpaks 13, 14 and 15 came with LVM. The last (and best) non-LVM FP was FP 12.

Andreas

Joop

Quote from: sXwamp on 2011.12.31, 14:17:12
Well, I have bootable CDs.  But this thread is on LVM-less USB MSDs and I would like to be able to use my new Flash drive (less than 1inch in size).

Not to mention everything else can be booted off a Flash drive these days, it's pretty bad that we have to use FAT16 to get a working solution !
That greatly depends on the bios on your mobo, I can't with the present hardware I use. I do backup on USB HD's with HPFS. With the bootable CD I can restore the whole thing. So what's the point? Anyway, real huge USB sticks are expensive and USB harddrives are a lot cheaper and for the same money have more storage room.

RobertM

Quote from: aschn on 2011.12.31, 19:00:15
Quote from: RobertM on 2011.12.31, 18:34:58
LVM has been a part of Warp since Warp *4* Fixpack #?

Fixpaks 13, 14 and 15 came with LVM. The last (and best) non-LVM FP was FP 12.

Andreas

Much thanks. I've been trying to track down the number. I knew it was in 15, 16, 17 and 18 - and the number 13 kept popping into my head, but I couldn't remember if it was because it was "that really buggy FP" or because it included LVM (or both). I kinda am recalling it was both? Or was that 5 or 6 that was really buggy?


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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DougB

QuoteYou missed the word cloned (DFsee), it does work -- just tried my C: primary and M: logical partitions. It took me less than 10 minutes.

Have you tried booting it when the HDD is disconnected?

QuoteI disagree, what's the difference between booting for old Warp 4 disk & a bootable Warp 4 thumb drive (/w updated large drive support)

That might work okay, unless you need to add drive letters, or do some other LVM operation. You may also find that it can be somewhat confusing because of the potential for drive letter changes. I would suggest that you be very careful when attempting to boot Warp 4 on an LVM system.

QuoteToo slow? For what? For what reason you need super fast media?

Well, the main reason is that backup, and restore, take a LONG time when using USB 2 connected media. RSync can reduce backup time (after the first one), but it still takes a long time to do a full restore, if that ever becomes necessary. The media that I use, is a 1 TB Samsung Story Station. It works well, but it is painfully slow (the last full backup took about 20 hours). If I ever need to do a full restore, I will attempt to mount the drive so that it is connected to the motherboard, rather than through USB. I haven't tried that because opening the case will void the warranty. It is possible that there will be a geometry problem, or something like that, so I may be forced to use the USB connection anyway. My other USB disk also has an eSATA connection that runs at SATA I speeds, but it requires a shutdown to connect/disconnect it so it isn't convenient to use it that way.

QuoteA not necessarily ideal but more suitable solution would be some sort of automatic script that used the dfsee engine to LVM the media on insertion.

That is a possible solution, but it could be a dangerous solution. Some media doesn't have room for LVM data, unless it has been prepared by making a partition, using LVM. That can (and does) result in data loss if the LVM data is written over top of existing data. That happened on my old 100 meg ZIP drive, and I think it happened on a USB stick, when I tried it.

QuoteNot to mention everything else can be booted off a Flash drive these days

Well, that isn't always true. It depends on the BIOS support for booting such a drive. I have never been able to make that work on my machines. It is definitely a BIOS problem.

I would suggest trying bootAble, to build a maintenance partition on the stick. Then, the trick is to get it to boot.  At least with LVM, the drive letter isn't likely to change on you. Once you get it to boot with the disk drive in place, try it with a new disk, or no disk. That can change the rules on you, especially if you don't have LVM to assign the drive letter.

sXwamp

#24
Quote from: Joop on 2011.12.31, 19:10:13
So what's the point? (Of having a bootable USB stick)

1) I don't have to use Bootable to make a bootable CD or use the eCS install CD.

2) My backups only need quick boot - I use Back Again/2 (the best), a Zip image, and Rsync.

3) I didn't say anything about backing up to the an USB device, because to takes forever to complete (as DougB stated also).

4) The point for me is a quick and easy way to boot eCS, instead of having a maintenance partition - which could also be damaged.

On Christmas day I lost my boot drive, so I booted using my maintenance partition, ran the Restore for Back Again/2 and had my partition back in 36 seconds flat.

Now, if we had a bootable USB option - people wouldn't have to worry about having a maintenance partition or working with 'Bootable' (even /w DougB config, it's still a process) or trying to find the eCs install CD (which usual is missing when i need it ;)).

Greggory

DougB

QuoteI use Back Again/2 (the best)

You may be surprised if you assume that BA/2K is the "best". It is so far out of date that it has some serious problems. It won't always do a restore, which is why I only use it for my boot volumes (and, I have two of those). Of course, with proper planning, it is pretty easy to simply re-install eCS, and configure it as you wish.

Backing up to a USB device is not a bad idea, if you use RSync to do it. My nightly backup (RSync) takes anywhere from 10 minutes, to two hours, depending on what changed. It would be very frustrating to have to do a complete restore, but individual files, or directories, is not too bad.

The "quick and easy way to boot eCS" is to use bootAble to create maintenance partition. When that won't work, you need a CD boot system. True, you can boot the install CD (and I would hope that you would keep that somewhere where you can find it), but bootAble makes a boot system that is customized to your system. I do keep a backup on a bootAble DVD, where I also have BA/2K installed, just in case I need it (yes, bootAble also works on DVDs).

I should take some time, and see if I can get bootAble to build a boot system on a USB stick. It should work, but previous attempts have not been successful. I am pretty sure that it won't boot because of a brain dead BIOS, but I haven't tried it on my Lenovo ThinkPad T510, which is a newer machine. In fact, I haven't tried again on my main system, since I updated the BIOS, either. More work for next year...