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OS/2 Vs. Windows... The Debate Rages On

Started by S.SubZero, 2007.11.02, 08:49:11

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Saijin_Naib

#105
Phoning home:
Google Chrome (browser and OS)
Google Android

None of the business are exempt from these practices. Greed crosses all corporate boundaries; why you choose to single out Microsoft as the worst is beyond me.

Removed personal remark. Apologies.

RobertM

Hi ddan,

Glad you are back... stick around!

Just some supporting comments to your post...

Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
You give 'em too little credit, saijin! It's a clean sweep for Crimosoft in
these categories:
SPYWARE, PHONING HOME: absolutely Crimosoft "wins"; OS/2 doesn't compete.

WGA, and "bugs" in semi-recent versions of WMP that ignore user's selections of "Dont ____ via the Internet"


Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL TACTICS: Crimosoft, so far ahead as to be out of sight.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

412 points of fact/law/findings against them - and that doesnt even touch upon the EU's findings - or those of various states.

Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
DRM -- whether it's working or not is a guess, but in place: Crimosoft

In some cases, especially absurdly crippling, even though it has done nothing to prevent what it was intended to prevent.

Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
NAGGING, ESPECIALLY STUPIDLY: Crimosoft, OS/2 again doesn't even compete

Invalid WGA "this copy is pirated" nagging (I've seen out of the box computers do this with XP as recently as 2006).

Sometimes not even nagging, but sneaky stupidity, such as the recent addition of the .NET framework plugin into Firefox in what was supposed to be a bug fix (that sure as heck didnt seem to fix .NET's most serious flaw/vulnerability - but then again, neither did 6 other attemps).

Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
CHANGE IN GUI FOR SAKE OF CHANGE: Crimosoft, OS/2 barely since Warp.

OS/2 barely since V2, even though many things could be added to it (I still run and love Styler/2)

Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
CHANGED "STANDARDS" WTIHOUT INCREASE OF FUNCTION: Crimosoft

All the time, and continuing... much like their "all platform silverlight - we promise" that now has new APIs that only run on Windows... never saw that coming!!!


Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
# OF CONCURRENT VERSIONS: Crimosoft

Sadly, they realized they could charge for some of the additional functionality that came standard (or as very cheap add-ons via stuff like Object Desktop, Window Blinds and others) in earlier versions.

Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
EXTRACTING MONEY FOR TRIFLING IMPROVEMENTS: Crimosoft

Windows 7 - which is barely more than Windows Vista with fixes, reduced features (as they move more things to online versions) and some eye candy changes.


Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
THREATS, HINDRANCES TO OPERABILITY: Crimosoft

Continuous compatibility changes to keep their edge for their own products - though that has bitten them in the past as well, such as in various versions of Office that needed updates to run properly in Vista. Of course, since they knew the changes needed, it still gave them an unfair advantage.

Reading various manufacturers' complaints (ATI, nVidia, Symantec, and numerous others), they were not provided the correct information in time to ensure compatibility as things changed since the last betas they were given. Their claims, not mine.


Quote from: ddan on 2009.11.23, 21:35:48
VULNERABILITIES FROM DEFAULT OPEN PORTS: Crimosoft

Of which, they seem to open more with each release - instead of absolutely none except as requested by the user (through action or installation of specific software).

Of course, then, in XP and even to an extent in Vista and Windows 7, they include a crippled, barely effective firewall and pretend it's ok.




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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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RobertM

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.23, 21:48:11
Phoning home:
Google Chrome (browser and OS)

Can be disabled, cant it? And it honors such a setting, doesnt it?

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.23, 21:48:11
Google Android

I would hope so. It is dependent on Google services to run.

I have an Android based phone. How would I expect it to load, maintain and use my Google contacts, and Google Voice and Picasa and GoogleChat and Android Marketplace and Google Search and Google Maps and NavIt and (do I really need to go on?) if it did not phone home?

Here's something though... I can turn off ALL of that and it will never phone home. By default, various of those features come turned off and required me to enable them so I could use the features.

Also, ALL Google apps (and even third party ones) are very very big on stating exactly what they do on a special page that you have to agree to whenever you install - or even update - an app for an Android based phone.

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.23, 21:48:11
None of the business are exempt from these practices. Greed crosses all corporate boundaries; why you choose to single out Microsoft as the worst is beyond me. But you don't really seem like a rational person so I take everything you say with a beach's load of salt.

So... again, where's the comparison to Google Chrome and Android?


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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ddan

@RobertM
Regarding GUI changes: I'm still reeling from the changes to window buttons
made in Warp 3, but have accepted them as actual improvements. But for Windows
and increasingly even in Linux, they just change things without improving.


@saijin
So it's beyond you why I "single out" Crimosoft "as the worst"? -- Because
they're visibly the biggest and the worst. -- Now, please don't argue about
what you state is beyond you.

But cheer up, fanboy. Go_ogle (the proper pronunciation for both porn-oriented
search engine AND a spy network), will soon be known as even more evil than
Crimosoft. Don't get me started. Off topic. Read the thread title.

And I'm not rational, eh? That's so feeble because manifestly untrue that I
feel disappointed, not insulted.

Just last night I began on C. M. Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons", (c) 1951
World Editions, Inc., a "science fiction" story that seems more profound each
time I re-read it (at about ten year intervals), so I know how to respond to
your attempt at personal not substantive insult: "OH, YEAH? SO'S YOUR MOTHER!"

Saijin_Naib

Fine, you feel they are the worst. I disagree.

Google is not to be trusted either. Their moves to buy up medical records and energy companies is shady at best.

Apologies for the inflammatory remark, I will try my best to refrain in the future.

In regards to my mother, despite recent health issues she is doing fine.

Saijin_Naib

Robert, until you or someone else has rigorously tested every inbound and outbound packet to determine its contents I would not trust that Chrome obeys the user's setting to have its communication to Google cut off.

Just as (I assume) you would not trust the same setting in a Microsoft app.

RobertM

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.26, 00:53:17
Robert, until you or someone else has rigorously tested every inbound and outbound packet to determine its contents I would not trust that Chrome obeys the user's setting to have its communication to Google cut off.

Just as (I assume) you would not trust the same setting in a Microsoft app.

I have not tested new versions, but older ones do seem to - something I have found Microsoft apps never do. Though, I wasnt discussing trust in this case. I was discussing track record as well, which is what I use to some extent to determine my trust in a company honoring such things. That, and that your comparison was poorly chosen due to the products' dependencies on Google online technologies.


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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Saijin_Naib

Right, I'm aware that it is cloud based. But by nature of that construction, your information is in the hands of Google and you have no control over what they do with it.

On the other hand, a local-based OS will provide you SOME data security and integrity.


Robert, not to frustrate, but what apps/services are not responding to your request to have them no longer communicate?

Are you referring to opting in/out of the Customer Experience Program for Live (Messenger, etc) as well as IE7/8 and Office products? However the data are handled, the improvements are obviously drawn from the usage statistics they collect, so I guess its not 100% useless that they collect these data.

RobertM

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.26, 01:06:28
Right, I'm aware that it is cloud based. But by nature of that construction, your information is in the hands of Google and you have no control over what they do with it.

Sure I do. I can choose not to use the products, since choosing to, based on them being cloud based, means I am aware I am sharing my data.

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.26, 01:06:28
On the other hand, a local-based OS will provide you SOME data security and integrity.

Unless it is Windows. Run a packet scanner with all auto/check-for updates disabled, all "Customer Experience" options disabled... tell me what you find.


Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.26, 01:06:28
Robert, not to frustrate, but what apps/services are not responding to your request to have them no longer communicate?

I dont even check anymore, as other than Windows itself, on only one workstation, I dont use other Microsoft software.

But even on the Windows front alone, my XP Pro machine nags the hell out of the OS/2 server through NetBIOS over TCP/IP even with the protocol "uninstalled" (oops, cant uninstall it, can we? we can click what we want and let Windows report we have uninstalled it, but we havent).

The XP machine accounts for a lot of firewall log entries on the OS/2 server coming from an uninstalled protocol.

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.26, 01:06:28
Are you referring to opting in/out of the Customer Experience Program for Live (Messenger, etc) as well as IE7/8 and Office products? However the data are handled, the improvements are obviously drawn from the usage statistics they collect, so I guess its not 100% useless that they collect these data.

No, I'm not. But if I opt out (which I always do), I expect they honor that regardless of their motives (claimed or real). When they do, I will be a little happier with them.


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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RobertM

Of course, the reason (my guess) that NetBeui cannot truly be uninstalled, contrary to the erroneous claim (ie: lie by design) that it is, is because it is used to talk with Microsoft - all while scanning everything it can on a local network for services that are disabled or shouldnt be able to communicate (via an "uninstalled" protocol).


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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Saijin_Naib

I did, I used Wireshark.

The vast majority of the traffic were keep-alive packets to my router.
Next were uPnP messages to my router (it is uPnP enabled).
Next were NBNS messages checking, then confirming my name.
Next were WORKGROUP join messages that then checked the status of the workgroup. It will check every 5 minutes according to the outbound packet.

This analysis was run for about 190s (just over 3 minutes) starting right after boot-up. I did not disable an Customer Experience options nor Windows Update service.

Granted, not exhaustive/conclusive, but nothing obvious nor troublesome presented itself.

RobertM

Now disable and uninstall NetBeui and monitor it again. And for a couple days. And load WMP with all "check this that and the other thing" options disabled and go scan a few directories with it.


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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Saijin_Naib

NetBEUI is not installed. Just client networking, QoS, and File/Printer sharing.

So far, it has been behaving as expected and no nasty surprises. I may continue the exercise up at school when I have time for it. I need to keep the family computer open for my family to use.

RobertM

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2009.11.26, 05:56:03
NetBEUI is not installed. Just client networking, QoS, and File/Printer sharing.

That is NetBeui.


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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Saijin_Naib

#119
Whoopsie. But its so useful :'( Let me test it again then.
Note: Uninstalled QoS/File/Microsoft Client from this adapter (Atheros Wireless)
Interesting. The Green results are the keep-alives sent between this machine and the router.
The yellow NBNS messages are sent from my sisters laptop to the router looking for a computer that no longer exists (that machine is now running eCS up at my school).

There was one outbound packet sent to Microsoft Spynet (I am opted in to the advanced membership, so it will send results that are currently unclassified to them for analysis).

The pattern of keep-alives and NBNS lookups by my sisters computer remains consistent during the time of monitoring (about 3 minutes). Only other outbound packets were my WhoIS lookup using FastResolver (to figure out where that one outbound was going), and another to look at my router's DHCP Client pool to determine the source of the NBNS lookups.

All in all, quite quiet.