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Port of K42?

Started by BigWarpGuy, 2008.01.28, 20:49:05

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djcaetano

#15
  Hi Cris,

Quote from: Cristiano Guadagnino on 2008.01.31, 14:24:55
Christian, do you have experience with the recent versions of their packages? eSchemes v1.46 is a great improvement over the previous versions, and a HUGE improvement with respect to the tools we previously had to modify eCS's look. We badly need this, even if it is only "looks".

  I had tried to install eSchemes v1.46 in this eCS 2.0RC1 and it caused a real mess: all frame window buttons (close, maximize, etc) vanished (they were working, but vanished) and every dialog control (buttons, radio boxes, check boxes...) stopped to work. The system became unusable and I was not able even of uninstalling it without hack: I had to rename estlrl11.dll, reboot machine, and uninstall eSchemes v1.46. Problem is: it deleted all DLLs (even those from eStyler that come with eCS) and now the eStyler cannot run anymore (it complains about missing dlls). Also, the features provided by eStyler (like gradient colors on titlebars) are not working anymore. And I was not even able to see what eSchemes really does! :(

  The main problem with most WPS enhancers is the fact they do not have a good "uninstall" feature; a good uninstall feature is that once the add-on is uninstalled, the system goes back to the previous state. In the case of eSchemes, the readme says one should backup INIs (I had done that), but backing up INIs cannot help with restoring DLLs. Also, I never suspected eSchemes would replace eStyler. Maybe it is said somewhere (?), but since the program has a different name (eSchemes / eStyler), it was very annoying to verify that I was not able to install a new add-on and, as a result of trying, cannot use the older add-on that was working without problems.

   Just as a statement about WPS add-on problems, WPS-Wizzard also game me some headaches. I tried to install it and I thought it worked... but the system became unstable (beeps, WPS hangs, vanishing icons...), even disabling all features in the WPS Wizzard configuration. When installing a icon scheme, even at 32 bit color mode (using Panorama Video Drivers) the icons were washed-out when displayed in small sizes (in eCenter). I like a lot the features of WPS-Wizzard; its the most impressive WPS feature add-on since xWorkplace - and for that I would like to congratulate the author, which had created good multimedia classes and also superb Audio Data CD/DVD Creator, but I never was able to keep it installed in my three OS/2 systems for the same reason: WPS instability (beeps, hangs etc). I thought it was because I had too much add-ons in my Warp 4.52 CP2's WPS, but this eCS is "vanilla", the only WPS add-ons installed are those that come with eCS 2.0RC1.
   Anyway, the uninstall was not without problems also. The system hanged while restarting the WPS and I had to uninstall it the ugly way: renaming its DLLs, rebooting, running checkini, cleaning all references to its classes and THEN uninstall it.

   I would like to notice that I am *not* complaining about the authors.  ;) They are doing a supreme effort to keep OS/2 / eCS alive, with new functionality and updated look and feel  :) ; but WPS is really tricky: it allows these updates, but there are a lot of checks that must be done before the install program could extend it. Also, the install should save files needed for a correct uninstall process *and* the uninstall should work even when things had gone wrong (since most people uninstall a program like those exactly because something has gone wrong!).

   Maybe serenity systems should spend some time extending WarpIn so WPS add-ons could be installed and uninstalled without those problems. I know how to cope with this mess, if needed I am able to open a class list, delete the offending class, locate and rename faulty DLL files and somewhat restore the system manually, but many users can't and then we are obligated to listen that old story that "OS/2 needs to be reinstalled once every month, which is annoying" ... :(

Saijin_Naib

Lol, once a moth would be a record for me!

chennecke

Quote from: Cristiano Guadagnino on 2008.01.31, 14:24:55
Quote from: chennecke on 2008.01.30, 15:32:50
I rather agree with Thomas. Most software that has come from them is still alpha quality and the usefulness of several packages is rather questionable. Creating eSchemes as a means of consistently managing the look and feel in one place was an excellent idea, mind you, but after what must have been two years now it's still not going anywhere. Things look similar for eSchemes Deluxe. I certainly like the idea of updating the IOprocs/codecs. When I tried the package, the installer was, uh, braindead. Yuri fixed that after I filed a bug report that's been pretty much it development-wise since then. Basically, you can see that reflected in Eugene's behaviour: He's a busy bee always trying to start something but then quickly loses focus. The result is that nothing gets done and many people don't take him seriously any more. His enthusiasm and dedication are commendable but they vanish into thin air like a puff of smoke.

Christian, do you have experience with the recent versions of their packages? eSchemes v1.46 is a great improvement over the previous versions, and a HUGE improvement with respect to the tools we previously had to modify eCS's look. We badly need this, even if it is only "looks".
PianoPad works well, while eSchemes Deluxe only has some problems with resource leaks.
I understand your feelings towards Eugene's behavior (his "announcements" are sometimes unintentionally humorous), but again saying that what they've done is "a puff of smoke" is not fair and not helping.

Either you didn't really read what I wrote before you replied or you are deliberately twisting the words in my mouth.  >:(

As for my experience with the latest eSchemes:


  • Installation ends with the message that a class could not be registered.
  • Research reveals that the package needs three supplemental packages:

    • The dependency is not mentioned anywhere in the WarpIN installation instructions.
    • The dependency is not a requirement for being able to install the WarpIN package as it should be.
    • The mandatory packages are not available in the same place as eSchemes.
  • De-installing eSchemes removes vital parts of the system instead of restoring them to the previous state.

    • The system is unusable.
    • The precautions mentioned in the installation instructions do not help in restoring a usable state.

Regarding Eugene's announcements, I'm not talking about a language barrier problem. I'm talking about a flood of half-baked ideas and showing an extremely short attention span. The activity I am talking about has put off developers and resellers to a point where communication groups he posts in have become unusable because people just switch to ignore mode as soon as he says something. That way nothing really happens and good ideas from both Eugene and other people get lost. Now, that's not helping.

djcaetano

Quote from: chennecke on 2008.02.01, 14:47:28

  • Installation ends with the message that a class could not be registered.
  • Research reveals that the package needs three supplemental packages:

    • The dependency is not mentioned anywhere in the WarpIN installation instructions.
    • The dependency is not a requirement for being able to install the WarpIN package as it should be.
    • The mandatory packages are not available in the same place as eSchemes.
Yes... the same here. I had to dig into the file to discover Cairo 1.something was needed (I had only an older version installed). And since Cairo is distributed as a WarpIn package, it would be nice if eSchemes verified if it is installed or not.
   About not being available in the same place, I think this would be not a problem, since the requirement was clearly expressed by WarpIn. It would be just a matter of searching for it in OS/2 World or hobbes (the usual places), or even NetLabs FTP.
  Anyway, this creates some kind of "dependency hell" a la Linux.

Quote from: chennecke on 2008.02.01, 14:47:28

  • De-installing eSchemes removes vital parts of the system instead of restoring them to the previous state.

    • The system is unusable.
    • The precautions mentioned in the installation instructions do not help in restoring a usable state.

  This was the worst part. :(
  Anyway, at least I was able to recover (well, somewhat).

  I would like to add that in any way I am "poking" the authors. I believe they are doing the best and I sheer for it. I just complain a little exactly because I *want* to use their extensions (which are really nice enhancements!), but I can't and sometimes I simply don't know why.
  Why WPS-Wizzard works ok on several places and not on any of my machines? Why eSchemes is not able to work in my machines? :(

  I believe something must be done to manage WPS extensions. For me, these problems are much more annoying than SIQ problems.

Quote from: chennecke on 2008.02.01, 14:47:28
Regarding Eugene's announcements, I'm not talking about a language barrier problem. I'm talking about a flood of half-baked ideas and showing an extremely short attention span. The activity I am talking about has put off developers and resellers to a point where communication groups he posts in have become unusable because people just switch to ignore mode as soon as he says something. That way nothing really happens and good ideas from both Eugene and other people get lost. Now, that's not helping.

  I understand what you are saying, but I understand Eugene's behavior. There are so many (small or big) things to get done and almost no time to do everything! As a hobbyist developer for an old computer system, I also start a lot of projects, many are just stalled... but some are finished at this time. People used to blame me for not finishing several things I started ... and the solution (in that case) was simple: I just stopped to say what I was working with.

   But in OS/2 scene I believe this is not a good thing, because it increases the chance of two people spending time developing the same feature (in case of closed source) and diminishes the number of working hands (on open source projects). Also, beta-testing is important, and it is needed to release something so people can test it.
   The down side is when a closed source project is revealed as "work in progress" and the author stops its development, then no one will start another project to do the same thing nor the project will be finished, and the users will be forever without that feature.

   Well, those were my 2 cents.
[/list]

Criguada

Hi Christian!

Quote from: chennecke on 2008.02.01, 14:47:28
Either you didn't really read what I wrote before you replied or you are deliberately twisting the words in my mouth.  >:(

Christian, I respect your opinion, and I share some of your points.
However, please, don't tell me I am twisting the words in anyone's mouth. I don't like it when it is done by others, and I surely don't want to do it. You didn't say *anything* about version numbers. Regarding eSchemes you said that after two years it is not going anywhere, while I feel that eSchemes is finally mostly feature complete and stable. I completely understand (and share) your feelings about the installation/uninstallation, but that doesn't say anything about the program itself. Then, talking about eSchemes *DeLuxe* you said: "When I tried the package, the installer was, uh, braindead. Yuri fixed that after I filed a bug report that's been pretty much it development-wise since then." That doesn't say anything about which version you tried, and if you bother to try it again afterwards. And - regarding v1.46 - I was talking about eSchemes, not eSchemes DeLuxe.
Maybe you should go back and re-read what you wrote. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth. >:( Or if I did, please show me the sentences I have misinterpreted and why.

That said, I share the feelings about Eugene and about the crappy quality of the installers. I am one of those who generally completely ignores Eugene's announcements. But I always try their software, I reports bugs, I suggest fixes when I can. Their software (especially lately) works for me and makes my eCS experience better. That's all I can say.

Finally, regarding the ability to communicate things and listen to the users, sadly *many* OS/2 developers lately are doing an extremely bad job :-(

Bye
Cris


wpswizard


The evening I killed the multimedia classes I swore never ever to discuss anything WPS related with anyone having less than 5 years WPS programming experience or less than 7 years SOM programming experience. But anyway here we go...

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
  Hi Cris,

Quote from: Cristiano Guadagnino on 2008.01.31, 14:24:55
Christian, do you have experience with the recent versions of their packages? eSchemes v1.46 is a great improvement over the previous versions, and a HUGE improvement with respect to the tools we previously had to modify eCS's look. We badly need this, even if it is only "looks".

  I had tried to install eSchemes v1.46 in this eCS 2.0RC1 and it caused a real mess: all frame window buttons (close, maximize, etc) vanished (they were working, but vanished) and every dialog control (buttons, radio boxes, check boxes...) stopped to work. The system became unusable and I was not able even of uninstalling it without hack: I had to rename estlrl11.dll, reboot machine, and uninstall eSchemes v1.46. Problem is: it deleted all DLLs (even those from eStyler that come with eCS) and now the eStyler cannot run anymore (it complains about missing dlls). Also, the features provided by eStyler (like gradient colors on titlebars) are not working anymore. And I was not even able to see what eSchemes really does! :(

  The main problem with most WPS enhancers is the fact they do not have a good "uninstall" feature;

eSchemes is not a WPS enhancer. It's a mixture of WPS classes and extensions to PM. The Deluxe version adds some stuff to the multimedia subsystem afaik.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
a good uninstall feature is that once the add-on is uninstalled, the system goes back to the previous state. In the case of eSchemes, the readme says one should backup INIs (I had done that), but backing up INIs cannot help with restoring DLLs. Also, I never suspected eSchemes would replace eStyler. Maybe it is said somewhere (?), but since the program has a different name (eSchemes / eStyler), it was very annoying to verify that I was not able to install a new add-on and, as a result of trying, cannot use the older add-on that was working without problems.

No addon needs to replace any system DLL in OS/2 to add a feature because of the modular design of OS/2. There may be exceptions though (in general just lazyness on the developer side. I also did this before). In the case of eSchemes it's just developer lazyness afaics.

Anyway, I'm confident the eSchemes people got the point by now and will improve the installer.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
   Just as a statement about WPS add-on problems, WPS-Wizzard also game me some headaches. I tried to install it and I thought it worked... but the system became unstable (beeps, WPS hangs, vanishing icons...), even disabling all features in the WPS Wizzard configuration. When installing a icon scheme, even at 32 bit color mode (using Panorama Video Drivers) the icons were washed-out when displayed in small sizes (in eCenter).

I heard rumours in OS/2 land that filing a bug in a bug tracker or notifying the developer sometimes helps fixing a problem.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
I like a lot the features of WPS-Wizzard; its the most impressive WPS feature add-on since xWorkplace - and for that I would like to congratulate the author, which had created good multimedia classes and also superb Audio Data CD/DVD Creator, but I never was able to keep it installed in my three OS/2 systems for the same reason: WPS instability (beeps, hangs etc). I thought it was because I had too much add-ons in my Warp 4.52 CP2's WPS, but this eCS is "vanilla", the only WPS add-ons installed are those that come with eCS 2.0RC1.

WPS-Wizard wasn't tested on any Warp 4 flavour for years. Do you have XWP installed on the other systems? If yes disable features of it to narrow down the problem. Start with disabling turbo folders.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
   Anyway, the uninstall was not without problems also. The system hanged while restarting the WPS and I had to uninstall it the ugly way: renaming its DLLs, rebooting, running checkini, cleaning all references to its classes and THEN uninstall it.

When the WPS is already broken (beeps and hangs) because of a bad class registration or whatever an uninstall program has a hard job to do it's job because the program of course is designed to remove something from a *working* system. That's the whole point about creating an INI archive. Being able to remove a class without relying on a working WPS.

BTW your 'ugly way' of deinstalling is in fact the best to do it. Remove the DLL and run checkini to discard all traces of a broken class or registration. Way better than using the OS/2 system API to do a class removal.
There is no point in running the uninstall afterwards because the classes are already gone.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
   I would like to notice that I am *not* complaining about the authors.  ;) They are doing a supreme effort to keep OS/2 / eCS alive, with new functionality and updated look and feel  :) ; but WPS is really tricky: it allows these updates, but there are a lot of checks that must be done before the install program could extend it.

As a matter of fact you can't do and don't have to do many checks prior to installation. For WPS extensions the problems are *not* related to installation.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
Also, the install should save files needed for a correct uninstall process *and* the uninstall should work even when things had gone wrong (since most people uninstall a program like those exactly because something has gone wrong!).

   Maybe serenity systems should spend some time extending WarpIn so WPS add-ons could be installed and uninstalled without those problems.

If I got a dollar each time someone suggest to use WarpIn for installation to fix a bug in the WPS (did I mention the problems with WPS extensions are not related to installation?) I'd be a rich man today.
BTW WarpIn already has the ability to install WPS extensions. It was made for XWP in the end.

Quote from: djcaetano on 2008.01.31, 15:18:44
I know how to cope with this mess, if needed I am able to open a class list, delete the offending class, locate and rename faulty DLL files and somewhat restore the system manually, but many users can't and then we are obligated to listen that old story that "OS/2 needs to be reinstalled once every month, which is annoying" ... :(

To overcome the WPS extension mess one had to replace the whole class management and loading part in SOM and fine tune it. That may for example prevent the WPS from loading a DLL twice and thus messing up all the DLLs internal data structures.
I don't know if anyone is thinking about doing that or if any of the eCS people care about this at all.

It was my intention to reply to more posts of this thread in this message but for some reason the quote feature does not work for me so I leave it as it is... This may leave the impression my remarks in this posting are only directed to the author of the quotes.
Most of my remarks apply to quite a few posts in this or other threads.

   Regards Chris

warpcafe

Hey Chris,

good to see you still do care.
The way you are responding here shows how much professionalism it takes to own a (good) reputation.
Thanks four your valueable inputs to this thread...

I only wish you won't regret it. ;-)

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

RobertM

Quote from: wpswizard on 2008.02.02, 11:45:14

The evening I killed the multimedia classes I swore never ever to discuss anything WPS related with anyone having less than 5 years WPS programming experience or less than 7 years SOM programming experience. But anyway here we go...

Hi Chris,

I don't have that type of programming experience... but nonetheless, I wanted to jump in this conversation (as my lack of experience in that area shouldn't affect what I want to say).  ;)

I've followed and used your work on virtually all my systems in one form or another, and wished to express my deep appreciation of your past and continued efforts. I followed much of the stuff that lead you to killing the MM classes (with much sadness) and just wanted to say both (a) I respect your decision and reasons for doing so, and (b) nonetheless, your efforts were and are appreciated still, to this day, by me and I am sure many others... and (c) envied by some of my Windows using friends who don't understand why (or how) an audio player can be so well integrated into the WPS, use so little resources (especially compared to their beloved WMP) and be both so simple yet so elegant.

Very glad you have decided to join the forums, and I hope your experiences in the past in no way detract from our enjoyment and appreciation of your work.

My best,
Robert


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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Saijin_Naib

^ I'd also like to echo Robert's thoughts concerning the CW-MM classes. They are one of the only things that kept OS/2 and eCS relevant in the arena of other modern and updated OSs. Thanks to your classes, the WPS can open filetypes that I need external viewers for on WinXP, or on Linux! I honestly really wish that you may one day pick that project back up and continue to add new features and formats because I see that as being one of the only was that eCS can keep up. Without decent format support for media and images an OS is kinda rather useless, but with the CW-MM classes, its so much more useful. But alas, it would seem that everyone blames something for other problems, especially when they lack the knowledge to come to the correct resolution to the problem, and I wish that this had not caused you to stop making the classes.

Maybe one day you could start it up again, maybe take the bounty they have here concerning IOPROCS ( http://www.os2world.com/content/view/14800/71/ ). If I get some finances together, I will try and add some money to that becasue I feel that is extremely important for the survivial of eCS and OS/2.