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On OS choice

Started by lwriemen, 2008.02.06, 15:23:23

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lwriemen

I am very disturbed that there are people posting on various forums that Microsoft has been good for the computer industry and that people choose to run Windows.  :'( Anyone who thinks that PC users choose to run Windows should go look at the conclusions of law in the Microsoft antitrust trial.

http://usvms.gpo.gov/ms-conclusions.html

The following excerpt outlines clearly what the state of OS choice/competition was in 2000, and IMHO still is today. Anyone who thinks that Microsoft has advanced the state of computing by creating one common platform should pay special attention to the part on pricing.

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The Court has already found, based on the evidence in this record, that there are currently no products - and that there are not likely to be any in the near future - that a significant percentage of computer users worldwide could substitute for Intel-compatible PC operating systems without incurring substantial costs. Findings ¶¶ 18-29. The Court has further found that no firm not currently marketing Intel-compatible PC operating systems could start doing so in a way that would, within a reasonably short period of time, present a significant percentage of such consumers with a viable alternative to existing Intel-compatible PC operating systems. Id. ¶¶ 18, 30-32. From these facts, the Court has inferred that if a single firm or cartel controlled the licensing of all Intel-compatible PC operating systems worldwide, it could set the price of a license substantially above that which would be charged in a competitive market - and leave the price there for a significant period of time - without losing so many customers as to make the action unprofitable. Id. ¶ 18. This inference, in turn, has led the Court to find that the licensing of all Intel-compatible PC operating systems worldwide does in fact constitute the relevant market in the context of the plaintiffs' monopoly maintenance claim. Id.

The plaintiffs proved at trial that Microsoft possesses a dominant, persistent, and increasing share of the relevant market. Microsoft's share of the worldwide market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems currently exceeds ninety-five percent, and the firm's share would stand well above eighty percent even if the Mac OS were included in the market. Id. ¶ 35. The plaintiffs also proved that the applications barrier to entry protects Microsoft's dominant market share. Id. ¶¶ 36-52. This barrier ensures that no Intel-compatible PC operating system other than Windows can attract significant consumer demand, and the barrier would operate to the same effect even if Microsoft held its prices substantially above the competitive level for a protracted period of time.

Saijin_Naib

No, Im pretty sure I choose to, but thanks!

lwriemen

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.02.06, 15:34:57
No, Im pretty sure I choose to, but thanks!

Why do you choose to?

Saijin_Naib

#3
Try not to crucify me for my choice, yours is different obviously, but that is your choice. Also, you ASKED why I choose.

What I like:
*Cost me next to nothing with my academic license ($5 for XP Pro SP2 32bit and XP Pro SP2 64 bit)
*Office is far better than Open Office, cost me about the same as OO for OS/2 (60$)
*Don't have to pay a large sum of money for updates that never come, or are of questionable use and quality at best
*Full, proper hardware support (Graphics card, media players, printers, scanners, every peripheral I can find, plus my miniDV camcorder which I use to make my movies, also my analogue capture/tuning device which I used earlier in my life to produce my videos and watch Tv and listen to radio on)
*Stability (Yes, thats right, its more stable for ME [I dont give a damn what YOU say is more stable, my evidence confirms otherwise]) - Perspective: Reinstalled XP 4 times 1)Gparted frigged my partition tables by overlapping partitons (way to go Ubuntu!), 2)Zeta's partition resizing tool failed and trashed XP and my OS/2 bootloader, 3)formatted to get rid of virus I got from my Mac friend trying to run a keygen for him 4)formatting again and this time nuked MBR and multiformat pass and got rid of it.
eCS? I have installed it over 50 times on this computer alone, not to mention the 10s of times I tried to get it working proper on my sister's laptop, or my Compaq laptop, or my roomate's laptop, or my RA's laptop or...
*Wealth of programs to perform the tasks I wish to do
*Best programs for what I want to do, although some GNU progs are "cool", they really suck in terms of usability and are highly unprofessional/unpolished
*Gaming platform of unparalleled excellence
*Multimedia platform (see above) of nearly unparalleled excellence (an Avid station is of course better, but I don't have the cash for that)
*Multiple sound streams without having a hard-lock :|
*Prettier UI that I have near complete control over (now that I am learning Luna)
*Performance (network & otherwise, again, I have posted my results here).
*Constant updates/support
*Using proper free-ware tools & files, impressive file support and flexibility

Now, what I don't like:
*Targeted by spyware/adware/virii although this is not a terribly large problem on XPSP2 with a firewall and freeware AV
*Used by too many morons that then complain that its broken and its MS's fault; they should stop ruining it for people who know how to use computers and just get a friggin Mac or something
*Lacks the "this is new" factor I get out of tweaking with eCS
*No longer fun to use because I have really nothing new to learn about how it works (like Im doing with eCS)
*Lacks some of the awesome features of the WPS and how its implemented
*Can be distracting because if Im in Windows, It means I am either doing work or gaming, and if Im supposed to be doing one, Im doing the other :[
*Too easy to do what I want to do, I need a challange like eCS provides me so I learn more about computing
*Not different because its what I use almost all day, every day for everything
*Finally, getting flak from fanyboys & haters

There is a fairly complete list that more or less sums up my feelings. Dont get me wrong, I love eCS, but its been a fairly abusive relationship thus far (eCS to me) and I know, I know, the problem is between the chair and the monitor ::)

lwriemen

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.02.06, 17:23:24
Try not to crucify me for my choice, yours is different obviously, but that is your choice. Also, you ASKED why I choose.
I won't. I'm here to say you have no choice.

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What I like:
*Cost me next to nothing with my academic license ($5 for XP Pro SP2 32bit and XP Pro SP2 64 bit)
*Office is far better than Open Office, cost me about the same as OO for OS/2 (60$)
Office is terrible software, but it can afford to be when there is no competition. OO is an Office wannabe; it had to be built that way to try to compete with Office. It might offer some better features, but those are secondary to Office compatibility. Compatibility with Office limits choice. This is part of the applications barrier to entry.

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*Don't have to pay a large sum of money for updates that never come, or are of questionable use and quality at best
... and sometimes you don't get to choose on whether you get updated or not.  ;)

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*Full, proper hardware support (Graphics card, media players, printers, scanners, every peripheral I can find, plus my miniDV camcorder which I use to make my movies, also my analogue capture/tuning device which I used earlier in my life to produce my videos and watch Tv and listen to radio on)
IOW, if you want "full, proper hardware support", you have no choice! This is part of the applications barrier to entry.

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*Stability (Yes, thats right, its more stable for ME [I dont give a damn what YOU say is more stable, my evidence confirms otherwise]) - Perspective: Reinstalled XP 4 times 1)Gparted frigged my partition tables by overlapping partitons (way to go Ubuntu!), 2)Zeta's partition resizing tool failed and trashed XP and my OS/2 bootloader, 3)formatted to get rid of virus I got from my Mac friend trying to run a keygen for him 4)formatting again and this time nuked MBR and multiformat pass and got rid of it.
eCS? I have installed it over 50 times on this computer alone, not to mention the 10s of times I tried to get it working proper on my sister's laptop, or my Compaq laptop, or my roomate's laptop, or my RA's laptop or...
This goes hand-in-hand with "full hardware support". It is full PC vendor support, which is the initial path Microsoft used ILLEGALLY to gain it's monopoly.
IOW, if you want to walk in a store and buy a PC with an operating system installed, you have NO CHOICE!

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*Wealth of programs to perform the tasks I wish to do
IOW, if you want a "wealth of programs to perform the tasks I wish to do", you have NO CHOICE! This IS the applications barrier to entry.

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*Best programs for what I want to do, although some GNU progs are "cool", they really suck in terms of usability and are highly unprofessional/unpolished
*Gaming platform of unparalleled excellence
*Multimedia platform (see above) of nearly unparalleled excellence (an Avid station is of course better, but I don't have the cash for that)
*Prettier UI that I have near complete control over (now that I am learning Luna)
These are all examples of the applications barrier to entry. ISVs have no reason to develop for a platform where they'll sell 100 copies when they could develop for a platform where they can sell 10 million copies.

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*Performance (network & otherwise, again, I have posted my results here).
OS/2 performs better than any other OS I have ever used in my 30 years of computing experience. This is what makes Voyager such a non-future for me. (It's the kernel, stupid!  :) )

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*Constant updates/support
Again applications barrier to entry, which equals no choice.

My question on choice was a trick question, because I already knew the answer. Thanks for allowing me to reinforce my point!  :)

Saijin_Naib

Walmart, gOS installed PCs. Other stores have similar.

Saijin_Naib

#6
Quote from: lwriemen on 2008.02.06, 18:36:06
I won't. I'm here to say you have no choice.
Disagree, but whatever.

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Office is terrible software, but it can afford to be when there is no competition. OO is an Office wannabe; it had to be built that way to try to compete with Office. It might offer some better features, but those are secondary to Office compatibility. Compatibility with Office limits choice. This is part of the applications barrier to entry.
No, I am sorry, OO is garbage, especially when I have to pay for it. Office is perfectly fine, I have yet to use anything that is as good. Even Lotus Symphony is garbage.
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... and sometimes you don't get to choose on whether you get updated or not.  ;)
Yeah, you do, dont be so silly.

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IOW, if you want "full, proper hardware support", you have no choice! This is part of the applications barrier to entry.
Linux has great hardware support, but its garbage.

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This goes hand-in-hand with "full hardware support". It is full PC vendor support, which is the initial path Microsoft used ILLEGALLY to gain it's monopoly.
IOW, if you want to walk in a store and buy a PC with an operating system installed, you have NO CHOICE!
Not relevant, build my own computer. The laptop issue is just unacceptable if eCS even hopes to stick around for a few more years. Not supporting audio, NIC, or native display resolution/color depth? FAIL.

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IOW, if you want a "wealth of programs to perform the tasks I wish to do", you have NO CHOICE! This IS the applications barrier to entry.
No, again, there are plenty of great GNU progs.

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These are all examples of the applications barrier to entry. ISVs have no reason to develop for a platform where they'll sell 100 copies when they could develop for a platform where they can sell 10 million copies.
This is competition and capatilism. Its tough, but oh well. If you cant play the game drop out.

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OS/2 performs better than any other OS I have ever used in my 30 years of computing experience. This is what makes Voyager such a non-future for me. (It's the kernel, stupid!  :) )
Wish I could say the same.

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Again applications barrier to entry, which equals no choice.
Drivers? System updates? That's from the developer.

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My question on choice was a trick question, because I already knew the answer. Thanks for allowing me to reinforce my point!  :)
Whatever works for you I guess... People have choices, they just have to take the responsibility to make that choice if they so wish.

lwriemen

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.02.06, 19:08:03
Quote from: lwriemen on 2008.02.06, 18:36:06
I won't. I'm here to say you have no choice.
Disagree, but whatever.
Quote

And yet you say nothing to counter the original conclusions of law I presented.

Your presentation of choices were the ones left to you by Microsoft's monopoly influence, and yet you still believe you had a choice. If I told you to choose a fruit to eat and presented you with an apple, a rotten orange, and a banana with a bomb strapped to it, which one would you choose? What kind of fruit do you think I grow?

It is incredibly naive to dismiss the conclusions of law as "competition and capitalism". Greed is why free market economics are as fanciful as communism. The monopoly is the apex of greed in an economy. Healthy competition is a requirement for choice to exist for a consumer.

Saijin_Naib

Why didnt I touch the legal stuff? Because I do not pretend to understand it, and like anything, its so easily distorted by both sides so the real situation is never seen. As such, it does not warrant my commenting upon.

I am assuming you grow the bomb bannana? And yes, I will choose given the choices I have at hand. Of course, using your example, I could simply quit school, liquidate my assets, buy a plot of land in the midwest and decide "screw you and your fruit, I prefer vegetables", learn to farm, and make my own vegetables instead. Maybe I can bring them to markets and see if people will buy them some day?

By the way, I find it silly to argue the current situation based upon what MAY have been had Microsoft not dominated the market. Simple fact of the matter is that is not the current conditon, and yes, I do have a choice of the many OS that are out there. Lets list the ones I have used to see my choices:
Linux (PCLinux, Slackware, Ubuntu, Kubuntu)
BeOS (Haiku, Zeta)
Mac OS (OS9, OSX)
OS/2 (Warp 4, eCS)
Windows (3.11 up to Vista)

That sir, is a list of options I have perused. I have CHOSEN OS/2 and Windows because they fit my needs and what I look for in an OS. Linux looks to be promising one day, but I find it utterly dissapointing to use. OSX offers me othing, and Zeta was nice to use, but I could not justify the additional cost (I had just purchased my eCS license). My home had ONE computer for many years, an IBM aptiva with Warp. I've had choices, and I have made mine. I am not going to go write my own language and OS just so I can tell myself I have free choice, because that is just retarded. See above. I would however, love to have my own small farm one day :)

BigWarpGuy

Up until just recently, it was almost impossible to get a computer that did not have Windows pre-installed onto it (unless you bought an Apple computer). Since I live in the USA, my point of view is of one in the USA. This might not be true of other countries. Now one can get Linux pre-installed but it is usually on a less expensive computer that does not have the resources for Vista (the latest version of Windows).  It was also not that long ago that computer companies admitted that they had an agreement with Microsoft to only pre-install Windows on computers. At one time IBM had the option of pre-installing OS/2 but they charged more for it.  :'(

Just because a pc might have Windows pre-installed onto does not mean one is restricted to Windows. One can install any operating system one wants. In many cases, one loses the company software support since it does not install that operating system. It is sites like this one that makes up for the loss.  8)

I have not tried all of them but there are other operating systems out there besides Windows.
http://www.reactos.org Still in developement but shows lots of promise
http://www.ecomstation.com An excellent upgrade to OS/2 Warp.
http://www.amiga.com the Amiga OS.
There are  others mentioned in the 'other operating systems' of http://forum.eeeuser.com

kim

Agree with Thomas, there are plenty of OS for what ever purpose that is needed to be done. But, then again it's really hard to replace the OS2 WPS and by that, if I could get the WPS on any other platform - I would use it. The Linux command shell works fine for me when I need to get things done from a server perspective and don't have the need for a GUI; by that OS2 offers the best from two worlds. Also, having been an Amiga user for many years, OS2 was the best OS for me to jump to when Amiga went down. Windows wasn't never an option for me; dog ugly and way to unstable and didn't support multitasking.

So for the day to day activities I use Windows XP as work platform since most of the customers that I work with uses this and by that more or less forces me to use the same OS. For servers I have migrated all the systems to Debian Linux. For the private activities I'm jumping between OS2 Warp v4.52, eCS and Ubuntu.

Regarding OO I would like to hear a bit more what you specific don't like with Open Office; I mean for the day to day work there is no difference for me if I used M$O or OO. My parents even finds OO easier to work with thatn with M$O and they just hate Vista that came pre-loaded on a ThinkPad T60. Problem was that the T60 with Win XP was 150 USD more expensive than the model with Vista.... speaking of forcing customers to something that they actually don't want.

Saijin_Naib

I'll have to boot back to eCS later to get more concrete examples, but this should suffice for now:
Its inexcusably slow to open and work with
Its 2 years behind the normal OO
Its expensive given the fact that its free software
Many features dont work properly compared to the builds on the big 3
It butchers the formatting on some documents
It doesnt print right for some people (not a problem given I cant print under eCS anyway)

Other than that, I suppose its fine.

lwriemen

Quote from: BigWarpGuy on 2008.02.06, 20:49:02
I have not tried all of them but there are other operating systems out there besides Windows.

You're missing the point. Sure there are hundreds (probably thousands) of operating systems out there, but how many offer a comparable level of application and device driver support to Windows? The answer is zero. This means that a lot of the time choice is limited to Windows. Mac and Linux have gained some ground recently, but their market share still isn't as attractive as Windows to ISVs.

Back when there was competition in the home computer market, you might not have been able to run every application on every system, but each system had a more or less comparable level of application and device driver support. Some people try to point to the incompatibilities between the diverse platforms as a reason why Windows' dominanace is a good thing, but they fail to learn from history where suppliers have pushed for common interfaces to scale down their own costs. This was happening before Microsoft gained monopoly dominance and would have worked itself out without stifling innovation in operating system development.

BigWarpGuy

I use StarOffice on my eCS PC and OpenOffice on my Win PC. For what I use it for, SO works great. I use it to create simple letters, print labels and print photos (which I did till I bought the HP colorlaserjet 2600 and found it does not work with eCS but I am working on that :) ). OO works great for my Win PC since I use it for the same reason as SO on the eCS PC. Since the Win PC works with my colorlaserjet, I use it to print things.

There is another older yet newer OS called FreeDOS that one can use with a GUI. http://www.freedos.org I tried it on older computers a few years ago but that was before it reached 1.0. It was pretty good then and probably better now. I still prefer OS/2 and now eCS.  ;D

I have asked if one can get OS/2 or eCS pre-installed on a computer but I doubt they even know what I am talking about. At a computer store, the usually reply is 'OS/2 what?  ??? '.   8) There was one company that had eCS pre-installed but one paid more for it than other computer companies.

BigWarpGuy

Quote from: lwriemen on 2008.02.07, 16:50:24
Quote from: BigWarpGuy on 2008.02.06, 20:49:02
I have not tried all of them but there are other operating systems out there besides Windows.

You're missing the point. Sure there are hundreds (probably thousands) of operating systems out there, but how many offer a comparable level of application and device driver support to Windows? The answer is zero. This means that a lot of the time choice is limited to Windows. Mac and Linux have gained some ground recently, but their market share still isn't as attractive as Windows to ISVs.

Back when there was competition in the home computer market, you might not have been able to run every application on every system, but each system had a more or less comparable level of application and device driver support. Some people try to point to the incompatibilities between the diverse platforms as a reason why Windows' dominanace is a good thing, but they fail to learn from history where suppliers have pushed for common interfaces to scale down their own costs. This was happening before Microsoft gained monopoly dominance and would have worked itself out without stifling innovation in operating system development.


If you are talking about WinXP, this might be true. I have read that isn't necessarily true of Win Vista. So many have not upgraded or bought Vista because device drivers for what they are using is not available or programs are not compatible with Vista like they are with XP.

When you buy a complete computer system (desktop or notebook computer), the only real choice (good or bad) is Win. Up until recently where some companies are offereing Linux, one would have install any other operating system oneself. There was no real choice. This is why when they say PC they mean Win.