OS2VOICE Speak Up - February 25. 2018: Difference between revisions

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<PRE>
<PRE>
[18:41:36] * Homepage for #os2voice is www.os2voice.org
[18:41:36] *** Mode #os2voice +cnt by rajaniemi.freenode.net
[18:41:36] * Channel #os2voice created on Mon Feb 5 15:13:59 2018
[18:50:38] -*- MrFawlty wonders if there is an agenda or a blank board for open items
[18:50:38] -*- MrFawlty wonders if there is an agenda or a blank board for open items
[18:53:01] <Roderick> There is whtite board...
[18:53:01] <Roderick> There is whtite board...
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[18:54:37] --> DavidA (chatzilla@50-105-73-180.alma.mi.frontiernet.net) has joined #os2voice
[18:54:57] <-> Carlo is now known as Guest25811
[18:57:56] --> altsan (~chatzilla@d67-193-142-147.home3.cgocable.net) has joined #os2voice
[18:58:03] <Roderick> Well as president of OS/2 VOICE I would like to welcome everybody...
[18:58:03] <Roderick> Well as president of OS/2 VOICE I would like to welcome everybody...
[18:58:21] <Roderick> I suggest we wait another 5 minutes as you always see people stumbling in late....
[18:58:21] <Roderick> I suggest we wait another 5 minutes as you always see people stumbling in late....
[18:58:35] --> TomS (525f667b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.95.102.123) has joined #os2voice
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[18:59:05] -*- HowardW didn't get where he is today without stumbling in late
[18:59:05] -*- HowardW didn't get where he is today without stumbling in late
[18:59:23] <MrFawlty> :)
[18:59:23] <MrFawlty> :)
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[18:59:29] <eco-dev> what will happen with the chat-log? Are you going publish it?
[18:59:29] <eco-dev> what will happen with the chat-log? Are you going publish it?
[18:59:32] <-- LewisR (~apollo-ch@mail.2rosenthals.com) has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:59:32] <-- LewisR (~apollo-ch@mail.2rosenthals.com) has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[19:00:08] <Roderick> But now it seems Lewis his IRC connection dropped out...
[19:00:08] <Roderick> But now it seems Lewis his IRC connection dropped out...
[19:00:20] <Roderick> As I said some people stumble in late :-)
[19:00:20] <Roderick> As I said some people stumble in late :-)
[19:01:06] --> HerwigB_ (5078ef8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.120.239.138) has joined #os2voice
[19:01:31] <Cenbe> switching to GTIRC on BlueLion...
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[19:01:44] <-- Cenbe (~cenbe@unaffiliated/cenbe) has left #os2voice
[19:01:52] <-- HerwigB_ (5078ef8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.120.239.138) has quit (Client Quit)
[19:02:16] --> Gordon (b8944430@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.148.68.48) has joined #os2voice
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[19:03:54] <Roderick> Oke well lets get started....
[19:03:54] <Roderick> Oke well lets get started....
[19:04:18] <Roderick> Depending on how questions come speakup can last 30 minutes. But I do not want to make it last longer then 60 to 90 minutes.
[19:04:18] <Roderick> Depending on how questions come speakup can last 30 minutes. But I do not want to make it last longer then 60 to 90 minutes.
[19:04:27] <eco-dev> Q1: Are you going keep compatibility (source code / binary / directory structure) with IBM OS/2 Warp? eComStation?
 
'''[19:04:27] <eco-dev> Q1: Are you going keep compatibility (source code / binary / directory structure) with IBM OS/2 Warp? eComStation?'''
[19:04:35] <Roderick> Next week we have another speakup but we did this for people living in Asia.
[19:04:35] <Roderick> Next week we have another speakup but we did this for people living in Asia.
[19:04:53] <LewisR> First, hi, everyone!
[19:04:53] <LewisR> First, hi, everyone!
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[19:07:09] <LewisR> We have no immediate plans to change anything for 5.1.
[19:07:09] <LewisR> We have no immediate plans to change anything for 5.1.
[19:07:17] <LewisR> Yes.
[19:07:17] <LewisR> Yes.
[19:07:41] <Guest43232> Is there a list of supported chipsets by uniaudio?
 
'''[19:07:41] <Guest43232> Is there a list of supported chipsets by uniaudio?'''
[19:07:42] <altsan> That said, there are proper ways of determining directory structure
[19:07:42] <altsan> That said, there are proper ways of determining directory structure
[19:07:54] <altsan> ...assuming a specific directory name/layout is generally not the way.
[19:07:54] <altsan> ...assuming a specific directory name/layout is generally not the way.

Revision as of 04:08, 28 February 2018

[18:50:38] -*- MrFawlty wonders if there is an agenda or a blank board for open items
[18:53:01] <Roderick> There is whtite board...
[18:58:03] <Roderick> Well as president of OS/2 VOICE I would like to welcome everybody...
[18:58:21] <Roderick> I suggest we wait another 5 minutes as you always see people stumbling in late....
[18:59:05] -*- HowardW didn't get where he is today without stumbling in late
[18:59:23] <MrFawlty> :)
[18:59:29] <eco-dev> what will happen with the chat-log? Are you going publish it?
[18:59:32] <-- LewisR (~apollo-ch@mail.2rosenthals.com) has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:59:42] <Roderick> Of course it will be published...
[18:59:44] <MrFawlty> you scared him ;-)
[18:59:59] <Roderick> Oke David from Arca Noae is here.
[19:00:08] <Roderick> But now it seems Lewis his IRC connection dropped out...
[19:00:20] <Roderick> As I said some people stumble in late :-)
[19:02:35] --> LewisR (~apollo-ch@mail.2rosenthals.com) has joined #os2voice
[19:03:54] <Roderick> Oke well lets get started....
[19:04:18] <Roderick> Depending on how questions come speakup can last 30 minutes. But I do not want to make it last longer then 60 to 90 minutes.

'''[19:04:27] <eco-dev> Q1: Are you going keep compatibility (source code / binary / directory structure) with IBM OS/2 Warp? eComStation?'''
[19:04:35] <Roderick> Next week we have another speakup but we did this for people living in Asia.
[19:04:53] <LewisR> First, hi, everyone!
[19:05:10] <Roderick> Today I invited Lewis and David from Arca Noae LLC.
[19:05:20] <WizardTheCat>  hiya
[19:05:36] <Roderick> I do not really think they need to introduce who they are and what they are doing from day day :-)
[19:05:49] <Roderick> As they just released ArcaOS 5.02...
[19:06:01] <Roderick> Anyway guys the floor is yours...
[19:06:16] <LewisR> Now, as to whether we will be keeping binary directory structure with Warp, well, we're not removing the OS2, MMOS2, etc. directories.
[19:06:52] <LewisR> We have no ecs directories, of course, and we have added the sys directory stucture.
[19:07:09] <altsan> Source code / binary / directory structure... Those are really three separate questions...
[19:07:09] <LewisR> We have no immediate plans to change anything for 5.1.
[19:07:17] <LewisR> Yes.

'''[19:07:41] <Guest43232> Is there a list of supported chipsets by uniaudio?'''
[19:07:42] <altsan> That said, there are proper ways of determining directory structure
[19:07:54] <altsan> ...assuming a specific directory name/layout is generally not the way.
[19:08:34] <altsan> I still see software that has hardcoded paths to <bootdrive>\ecs
[19:08:58] <WizardTheCat> What options are there for SSH and NFS in ArcaOS?
[19:09:01] <altsan> ...which is not an ideal way of future-proofing it.
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[19:09:58] <Roderick> For NFS server you can install possibly the IBM NFS server. How stable is that ? I would certainly recommend for NFS client support you use the Netdrive NFS client plugin.
[19:09:59] <valerius> WizardTheCat OpenSSH? qPutty? OS/2 NFS 2.0 and 3.0? Netdrive plugin for NFS?
[19:10:23] <LewisR> David, do we have a list of chipsets supported by Uniaud in the wiki?
[19:10:36] <DavidA> Not that I know of.
[19:11:17] <LewisR> We might want to look at pulling at information from the ALSA site, just to have it handy.
[19:11:43] <eco-dev> Q: What application will become the MAIN application for ArcaOS? The application which attracts new people and makes them buy ArcaOS. (example: 90-th, for Macintosh it was PageMaker, 2000-th: MSOffice for Windows)  Do we have such "locomotive" application or Arca Noae is developing it?
[19:13:11] <Guest58636> I am working on my 45 Minutes Youtube Video and I am close to the goal. Adding Comments right now. It will be in english. I would like to add - even it is almost about OS/2 - some "advertisement for ArcaOS". Are there some wishes or els what I should mention?
[19:13:28] -*- MrFawlty would think continued support of existing applications on new hardware is the most interesting one
[19:13:35] <LewisR> Other than OpenOffice, we are not working on one, nor do we know of a specific app. We're always interested in new stuff, though.
[19:14:00] <Roderick> I can imagen the challenge is already big enough to keep the current platform moving forward.
[19:14:20] <LewisR> That's a pretty fair assessement, yes.
[19:14:46] <altsan> FWIW, I don't think Arca Noae should be seen as solely responsible for OS/2 application development.
[19:14:56] <Whoknows> Is ArcaNoae working on OpenOffice?
[19:14:57] <MrFawlty> ack
[19:15:03] <eco-dev> Q: It's not clear, what  is the current version of OpenOffice.org? ApacheOffice or LibreOffice? Where to find it? Is it reliable? is it usable?
[19:15:18] <-- BenRietbroek (~RDPe___@5072D96F.cm-16.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:15:40] <LewisR> The latest available OpenOffice for OS/2, by Bitwise, is 4.1.3.
[19:15:51] <LewisR> We are not directly involved in that work.
[19:16:18] <LewisR> There is no OS/2 code in Libre, so a port of Libre for OS/2 is not likely.
[19:16:39] <LewisR> Is it usable? I use it every day (Writer and Calc).
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[19:17:27] <LewisR> Is it SmartSuite? No. But if you find a bug, it's more likely to be addressed in OpenOffice.
[19:17:42] <LewisR> Good luck telling IBM about a bug in SmartSuite.
[19:17:52] <MrFawlty> hehe
[19:17:57] <Guest43232> arcaos5.0.1 is going in the right direction, but there are still some issues: usb support, uniaudio support , firefox stealing all processor power
[19:18:02] <-- BenRietbroek (~RDPe___@5072D96F.cm-16.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:18:20] <eco-dev> Q: How to become reseller of computers with OS/2 pre-installed? Euopean company was going start sellings of ArcaOS laptops. Blondey Guy is selling laptops with ArcaOS pre-installed.
[19:18:22] <LewisR> You can find the latest OpenOffice at the Bitwise site (http://www.bitwiseworks.com).
[19:18:41] <Roderick> I was asked privately what does "guest" entries are in the list. When you login the IRC network you should not choose a common name such as Sigurd. But SigurdFR as an example.
[19:18:48] <Roderick> But that is something for next time.
[19:19:12] <LewisR> All that is required to become a reseller is to contact us at sales@arcanoae.com, and sign a reseller agreement. There is no cost to becoming a reseller.
[19:19:26] <Roderick> The freenode network is very big and if you login with just your first name and somebody is already logged on the server changes you name to Guestxxxxx.
[19:19:31] <LewisR> From there, if you want to sell preloaded systems, just "have at it."
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[19:20:28] <Guest58636> I tried to lock in as Sigurd Fastenrath, assumed there may be only one with that name....
[19:20:30] <Whoknows> Which European company wants to sell laptops with arcaos?
[19:21:18] <Roderick> At Warpstock Europe a Dutch OS/2 user named Arnold van Overeem annouched he would setup a company todo this.
[19:21:25] <eco-dev> Whoknows (I don't remember. The user declared to do this at WSE2017)
[19:21:49] <MrFawlty> yeah, same person
[19:22:05] <MrFawlty> no idea about the status
[19:22:20] <LewisR> About the question concerning USB support: USB 3 *is* coming. Really. No kidding. We also have plans for a new audio driver to replace Uniaud, based on FreeBSD's audio, but this is in line after Multimac Wi-Fi driver support, which is another pressing issue.
[19:22:22] <Whoknows> No news no status I'd say
[19:22:30] <RDPe> Does AN have any plans to position ArcaOS as a could-os, like running it in docker or likewise ?
[19:23:01] <RDPe> s/could/cloud/
[19:23:03] <Roderick> I will meet in Arnold him two weeks time at a Dutch OS/2 usergroup meeting and I will ask him about the status.
[19:23:04] <LewisR> We welcome working with any company willing to do the work to test this and provide feedback.
[19:23:23] <LewisR> The same is true for running it as a cloud VM.
[19:24:52] <LewisR> Sorry; I split up the difference between docker and cloud, but the concept (for us) is the same: someone needs to step up to do the testing.
[19:25:12] <eco-dev> Q: One of the ways to extend/develop OS is to include more functionality. More utilities, more options. All this functionality is hidden and available to users by request (in context). Example: When you select a picture, you get options to resize, convert, etc. SO, question: do you have plans to include such 20 or 50 small tools / functions into desktop? What is the list of functions?
[19:25:59] <LewisR> We have no plans for this. There are available tools to do these things already (PMView, etc.).
[19:26:41] <LewisR> Our focus is on hardware compatibility.
[19:27:10] <LewisR> Enterprising developers should be focusing on applications.
[19:27:17] <LewisR> ...and extending the desktop.
[19:27:35] <LewisR> Another focus for us is on networking.
[19:28:07] <altsan> Well, hardware compatibility and ease of installation/deployment.  Getting a functional system up and running and into production.
[19:28:17] <LewisR> Yes.
[19:28:27] <LewisR> Networking is another focus.
[19:28:31] <-- Guest58636 (5b0a984b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.10.152.75) has quit (Quit: Page closed)
[19:28:34] <eco-dev> Q:  OK.. hardware compatibility. Is it possible install Touch screen by default? Wim Brul have developed support for many touch screens.
[19:28:54] <eco-dev> (touch screen driver. for Wacom, for other popular touchscreens)
[19:29:12] <LewisR> We don't ship with a touch screen driver, but this is something we've talked about doing in the past.
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[19:30:08] <eco-dev> Q: How are you going attract young developers to ArcaOS project? There is no students or young specialists in the development team.
[19:30:28] <altsan> Hey, young is a subjective term. :)
[19:30:48] <MrFawlty> altsan: check ;-)
[19:30:50] <LewisR> My daughter, Rachel, is 20, and she's at least "attached" to the team.
[19:31:51] <LewisR> We would love to have more young developers join the effort. We also have the ability to transfer a retiring developer's DDK license to a young developer (permission from IBM).
[19:32:32] <LewisR> I guess eveyrone wants to hear something about what's planned for 5.1?
[19:32:42] <Roderick> As VOICE I am not looking as much as getting your developers but just getting more people to use the platforms.
[19:33:19] <MrFawlty> 5.1 wishlist... yeah
[19:33:19] <Roderick> Hence my campaign to get more software packaged in RPM format with a catalogue. To try and build a click and run software repo.
[19:33:27] <Roderick> Sorry Lewis go ahead...
[19:33:31] <LewisR> 5.1 will unveil NLV support, beginning with German.
[19:34:24] <LewisR> Other languages will follow (French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch - hopefully, Russian - hopefully, and more).
[19:34:41] <SigurdWarp> What kind of advertisement is planned?
[19:35:40] <SigurdWarp> If any
[19:35:46] <LewisR> Right now, the usual round of magazine interviews and possibly a couple more YouTube interviews.
[19:36:26] <LewisR> We have some rough sketches for some web ads, but no budget to produce them, yet. Our resources are primarily directed at development.
[19:36:40] <SigurdWarp> I would suggest to open an ArcaOS Youtube channel with some easy to understand "How to" videos
[19:37:16] <SigurdWarp> Starting with something like: "These are the recommended hardware things"
[19:37:33] <MrFawlty> for good usefull YouTube movies you will need to come up with scenarios and thinking out the shooting
[19:37:44] <SigurdWarp> Going on with "Installation for Dummies"
[19:37:55] <LewisR> That's a thought. Need to find someone with the time to do that.
[19:38:09] <altsan> (and the video production skills)
[19:38:29] <SigurdWarp> As I wrote before I am working on a 45 Minutes Video, underestimated the Production skills and post processing, but it is doable
[19:38:40] <SigurdWarp> the question is what kind fo qualitiy is neede
[19:38:41] <MrFawlty> see :-)
[19:38:56] <MrFawlty> 45 minutes is way to long for YouTube
[19:39:03] <MrFawlty> 10 min max these days
[19:39:07] <SigurdWarp> Wait and you will see :-)
[19:39:20] <Whoknows> As vendor channel it needs good quality and clean English
[19:39:26] <LewisR> The other bits planned for 5.1, which are very important, are upgrade and migration.
[19:39:43] <LewisR> These are two different, yet related, features.
[19:40:22] <SigurdWarp> This video is a not intended to be for the mass, put talking about the history of OS/2 does take some time
[19:40:51] <MrFawlty> true
[19:41:04] <SigurdWarp> Yeah - perfect english is for sure somtehing I have to think about.
[19:41:41] <LewisR> Longer term, we are exploring how to install and run on UEFI systems which lack a manufacturer-supplied CSM.
[19:41:52] <Whoknows> At least I quit watching videos with poor speak up within minutes
[19:41:54] <SigurdWarp> I will say it with other words: i would like to start doing such ArcaOS Videos, for free for sure, all of them not longer than 5 to 10 minutes
[19:42:19] <SigurdWarp> I would give it a try and you can rate, critizise and so on
[19:43:07] <LewisR> Intel has announced that they will no longer provide a CSM by 2020, which means that we have our work cut out for us between now and then if we want to stay current.
[19:43:09] <MrFawlty> SigurdWarp: great idea
[19:43:10] <SigurdWarp> I would suggest to do this ArcaOS Videos without speaking at all
[19:43:51] <SigurdWarp> I hope to relaese the OS/2 video tomorrow or next weekend. There you can see what I am thinking about
[19:44:13] <MrFawlty> UEFI sounds challenging
[19:44:37] <LewisR> Hugely challenging.
[19:44:42] <SigurdWarp> If my first shot for ArcaOS videos does not meet / fit what is expected by ArcaNoae, than it is easy to quit
[19:45:16] <WizardTheCat> What is the best place to ask ArcaOS support questions?
[19:45:46] <MrFawlty> UEFI needs a complete new driver stack? Not 'just' replacing the ring 0 stuff?
[19:46:05] <LewisR> Well, peer-to-peer can still be done in eCS-Technical at Yahoo.
[19:46:07] <LewisR> Official support is *only* available through our Mantis ticketing system.
[19:46:09] <SigurdWarp> And no, it should not be a vendor channel, it is my private channel that I would open so there is no need for ArcaNoae to step official in
[19:46:43] <LewisR> We're still exploring how the UEFI support is going to look.
[19:46:55] <MrFawlty> ok
[19:47:05] <Roderick> I think you can the best community support at www.os2world.com forum or www.os2.org.
[19:47:22] <LewisR> Right now, we're looking at video support at boot time. It's like inventing the PC all over again.
[19:47:33] <Roderick> But if you have a bug or issue you want an answer everybody knows the AN policy they advertise. No ticket=no support.
[19:47:45] <Roderick> The same is true for Bitwiseworks.
[19:48:10] <MrFawlty> yes, as ticket counts make the priorities quite a bit
[19:48:56] -*- MrFawlty is not aligned to BWW nor AN :-)
[19:48:57] <eco-dev> Q: Tell us about the internals of ArcaOS. Is it modern operating system or ancient?
[19:49:14] <LewisR> ??
[19:49:40] <LewisR> The core of ArcaOS is MCP2, a mature, stable operating system.
[19:50:11] <LewisR> Arca Noae has provided an updated kernel and loader, updated drivers, and some updated utilities.
[19:50:28] <valerius> Q1. Does OS/2 need modern VM's like VirtualBox and QEMU?
[19:50:28] <valerius> Q3. Does AN want to include new FS'es like FAT32.IFS into the distribution? If so, is it good that AN benefits from it and developers still work for free?Q2. Who will suppoort the development? Need the developers work for free in their spare time?
[19:50:58] <LewisR> Which question would you like me to answer first? :-)
[19:51:04] <eco-dev> LewisR Does ACPI driver allows declare that ArcaOS is a modern operating system?
[19:51:23] <eco-dev> (availability of this and other drivers)
[19:52:00] <LewisR> I think if we can install on a relatively new system, and utilize most of its hardware, we're a pretty modern operating system.
[19:52:04] <Roderick> Everybody can we please ask one question at time ?
[19:52:15] <LewisR> ACPI is a key component of that ability, of course.
[19:52:26] <valerius> LewisR any question
[19:52:40] <Roderick> Lewis Q1 from Valerius first.
[19:53:34] <Roderick> DId my irc connection drop ?
[19:53:47] <LewisR> VMs: Do we need VMs as in running ArcaOS as a hypervisor?
[19:53:49] <MrFawlty> no, we can still 'hear' you
[19:54:20] <LewisR> I don't see a 32-bit OS as a very useful hypervisor, personally, though there are reasons to run smaller OSes under ArcaOS.
[19:54:46] <Roderick> Well I tried the BWW Virtualbox and one big issue is that ArcaOS can only use 4 GB of RAM. We have the new loader that you can use a ramdrive.
[19:54:57] <LewisR> Personally, I've used this technique to install a small Linux distro in a VM to use as a VPN connector.
[19:55:00] <Roderick> But running a VM on ArcaOS is kind of pain with 1 or 1 1/2 GB o ram.
[19:55:10] <LewisR> This is the real problem.
[19:55:33] <HerwigB> It depends upon which value for VIRTUALADDRESSLIMIT may be set.
[19:55:39] <LewisR> ArcaOS works much better as a guest OS running under something else, preferably 64-bit, where the 4GB RAM limit is not an issue.
[19:55:41] -*- MrFawlty would prefer to run AN within VirtualBox on Linux or MacOS
[19:55:47] <MrFawlty> which is possible already
[19:55:53] <LewisR> Yes.
[19:56:02] <LewisR> Filesystems: Yes, FAT32 is important for us to have available. We are also looking at alternatives to JFS, including XFS.
[19:56:25] <Whoknows> Why install arcaos at all if I need it in vm?
[19:56:42] <Guest43232> how about java 8?
[19:56:59] <LewisR> Java is a longer term project.
[19:57:05] <MrFawlty> Whoknows: you can keep on running your 'old' stuff, while benefitting of new hardware
[19:57:29] <LewisR> Obviously, an updated JVM is needed, but is it as important as an updated browser?
[19:57:42] <valerius> LewisR Roderick there was an idea to use PAE memory for swapping to/from VM memory, i.e., you assign a big memory block (may be > 4 gb), and a smaller block below 4 GB for swapping.
[19:57:42] <BenRietbroek> XFS uses a lot of caching and can thus lose (lots of) data on sys-hangs
[19:57:56] <BenRietbroek> A snapshot capable FS would be interesting
[19:58:15] <valerius> LewisR how about to update the ext2fs driver?
[19:58:42] <LewisR> EXT (all flavors) has too many size limits on EAs to be truly useful.
[19:59:08] <LewisR> We looked at ZFS, but this does not seem to be portable enough.
[19:59:15] <altsan> ext2fs in general is also pretty obsolete, I believe
[20:00:01] <LewisR> Ben, snapshotting capability is indeed one of the things we'd be looking to gain.
[20:00:04] <Roderick> Another issue I read about with ZFS is that its a very RAM intensive application
[20:00:12] <Roderick> Uhuu FS I meant.
[20:00:32] <LewisR> Yes, and this is why we've kind of moved away from that idea.
[20:00:45] <valerius> LewisR EA would be supported like FAT, e.g. with emulating EA's via files, it it's needed. But the main purpose of ext2 support is not using as an OS/2 partition, but more as a means for exchanging data with Linux
[20:01:01] <eco-dev> To Roderick: Q: What is the program (agenda) of Warpstock Europe 2018?  Do we have the list of presentations? it's important to publish it today to attract attention  in advance.
[20:01:06] <Roderick> Useage of ZFS on 32 bit systems I think its not recommended duo to memory constraints.
[20:01:46] <Roderick> Eugee its on my agenda.
[20:01:47] <BenRietbroek> Lewis,BTRFS is lighter than ZFS but seems to be extremely intertwined with Linux kernel
[20:01:53] -*- valerius looks like almost any Linux FS has small limit for storing EA's. So, they are not worth porting to OS/2, following your logic
[20:02:17] <Roderick> I just moved to new apartment and have a new job, that is life.
[20:02:21] <LewisR> Exchanging data with Linux is generally available using JFS. While JFS is no longer shipping with a number of distros, it is nevertheless able to be compiled into most kernels. XFS has no EA size limit.
[20:02:38] <LewisR> Neither does BtrFS, AFAIK.
[20:02:54] <LewisR> Not that I am advocating for jumping on the BtrFS bandwagon...
[20:03:13] <BenRietbroek> I have been using JFS on Linux for more than 15 years -- rocksolid !
[20:03:33] <LewisR> Yes, if only the major Linux distros would recognize that...
[20:04:24] <Roderick> But besides filesystemd discussions.
[20:04:40] <Roderick> Do other people have questions/suggestions for Arca Noae who have not asked yet ?
[20:04:55] -*- valerius so, as I understood, OS/2 does not need modern VM and developers should work for free. Ok. Good.
[20:05:05] <LewisR> ??
[20:05:57] <MrFawlty> any further items for 5.1 not mentioned yet?
[20:06:32] <altsan> valerius: Where did you get that from?
[20:08:05] <Whoknows> I didn't see valerius his conclusion in here.
[20:08:10] <SigurdWarp> Another question: my 5.0 and drivers subsription ended in December. I am thinking about singing once again to get 5.0.2. What should I add to my basket at the store?
[20:08:41] <valerius> altsan LewisR ignored these questions, while answered another ones
[20:09:11] <LewisR> I didn't ignore anything.
[20:09:45] <LewisR> Areca Noae contracts with various developers for various components.
[20:10:06] <LewisR> These contracts are negotiated in advance, before work begins.
[20:10:27] <DavidA> ArcaOS does not *need* any VM, it never did and still does not.
[20:10:40] <altsan> Yes, I'm not sure what is meant by "does not need modern VM".
[20:10:45] <LewisR> We also have volunteer developers, without whom we would not be able to release a product. These volunteers are compensated in other ways.
[20:10:46] <altsan> Do you mean as host, or as guest?
[20:10:53] <DavidA> Every developer has his/her own deal. You cannot and should not make generalizations.
[20:12:48] <valerius> altsan I mean both host and guest. Host is important because we need to run different OS'es in a VM. Guest is important because OS/2 needs to be run in VM, for testing and developing drivers, for example
[20:13:36] <LewisR> Further items for 5.1: We're looking at improvements to some desktop objects, such as the desktop properties notebook, and the now-infamous background image selection page.
[20:14:09] <SigurdWarp> Just for the notes: I try to open another channel "ArcaOS" at youtube, will try to prolounge my ArcaOS license and once the OS/2 Movie is released I will give some small "ArcaOS for Dummies" Vidoes a try.
[20:14:23] <LewisR> We all know that IBM sort of left off with some less-than-useful functionality there, and we're exploring ways to make that more usable.
[20:14:33] <altsan> ArcaOS runs well in many VMs, modern and otherwise.  There are limited OS/2 hypervisors but in principal it could be used as a host OS too.
[20:14:59] <Roderick> The point is how big is the useability to have OS/2 used a host to run a virtual machine. We have limited memory valerius. As for guest OS does ArcaOS not already detect the basic drivers to run in the mainstream VM's ?
[20:15:10] <MrFawlty> LewisR: glad to here AN is exploring those
[20:15:36] <BenRietbroek> OS/2 as a guest is the most important, IMHO
[20:15:47] <MrFawlty> x2
[20:15:53] <Roderick> So running ArcaOS in Virtualbox is possibly your best bet to run... Add the Virtualbox additions and use Samba server and you are pretty much done.
[20:16:06] <Roderick> (Samba server for sharing files and the shared folders do not work that well).
[20:16:27] -*- valerius yes, if no formal agreement -- no responsibility to pay fro work. Given promises doesn't count, so they can be violated.
[20:17:09] <LewisR> We also want to bring the Samba server to the same level as Samba client.
[20:17:32] <SigurdWarp> In my opinion to focus on VM is not the right way, you can use Warp 4 to run in VBOX wihtout problems at all
[20:17:42] <LewisR> Currently, the server is using Samba 3.6, while the client is using Samba 4 (4.7, soon enough).
[20:17:46] <valerius> Roderick no shared folders support for VBox additions, for example. So, they still need to be developed, to make work in guesrt OS/2 comfortable.
[20:18:11] <Roderick> So why not use Samba then ? Its not that well integrated but it works and is fast...
[20:18:31] <MrFawlty> valerius: always get confirmation about agreements made via mail or hardcopy before doing any work or investments. Normal practice most of the time.
[20:18:38] <eco-dev> valerius you can develop a feature and sell it as shareware. There is no other way to earn money on OS/2 market.
[20:19:59] <altsan> Of course, on VirtualBox (and probably many other hypervisors), all OS/2 guests need virtualization support in the CPU.
[20:20:02] <valerius> eco-dev I'm developing opensource solutions, so the way to get money is sponsoring only. But separate individuums prefer to benefit my work and refuse sponsoring.
[20:20:47] <eco-dev> valerius no.. opensource solutions don't work here.
[20:20:55] <valerius> MrFawlty I know. I just pointed that behaviour of someone is not ethical.
[20:21:20] -*- MrFawlty is not a judge
[20:21:44] <LewisR> Are there any other questions about 5.1? 5.0.3, then?
[20:21:58] <MrFawlty> estimated delivery dates?
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[20:22:48] <eco-dev> (I missed, what is the date of 5.1 release?)
[20:22:54] <LewisR> Well, we had originally estimated 5.1 for 4th quarter this year, but 5.0.2 took a bit longer to release than anticipated, and pushed back the 5.1 work. I think best estimate from here for 5.1 is 1st quart 2019.
[20:23:13] <MrFawlty> ok
[20:23:38] <LewisR> 5.0.3 should be available sometime in between, with mainly installer fixes, and the usual driver updates.
[20:24:11] <BenRietbroek> cool
[20:24:13] <LewisR> BTW, with the new USB stick installation capability, it's easy to drop an updated driver into the root of the USB stick and boot with that for installation.
[20:24:25] <MrFawlty> how is the response on the mail about NLS fixpacks going?
[20:24:45] <SigurdWarp> As I see there is no interest in having some advertisement about ArcaOS - as I understand there are much more important things - I will procede as mentioned. Stay tuned to see what happens. I hope to extent the 130.000 visitors on my OS/2 channel in the future ;-)
[20:24:59] <LewisR> MrFawlty: Slower than expected.
[20:25:05] <SigurdWarp> *important things
[20:25:14] <MrFawlty> I think the DevCons had them
[20:25:16] <LewisR> Sigurd, there is always interest.
[20:25:39] <LewisR> Personally, I enjoy your YouTube videos tremendously.
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[20:25:59] <SigurdWarp> Oh, sorry, my comments my be misleading, I just want to say that I will go on an hopefully it will benefit ArcaOS
[20:26:16] <LewisR> We watch them on the TV, via our Roku (the YouTube channel for Roku leaves a lot to be desired, but at least we get to see you on the big screen).
[20:26:27] <LewisR> Thank you very much!!
[20:26:29] <MrFawlty> hehe
[20:26:31] <SigurdWarp> Just ordered a new Personal Edition of OS/2
[20:26:36] <SigurdWarp> ArcaOS ;-)
[20:26:39] <LewisR> :-)
[20:26:58] -*- MrFawlty needs a package of extended time for it first... ;-)
[20:27:06] <LewisR> ;-)
[20:27:28] <SigurdWarp> For those not already knowing: www.youtube.com/users/sigurdwarp
[20:27:55] *** Mode #os2voice +o Roderick by ChanServ
[20:28:06] <LewisR> FWIW, I am planning to be at WSE in May.
[20:28:17] <LewisR> I look forward to seeing everyone there.
[20:28:22] <SigurdWarp> saldy I can not participate
[20:28:24] <HerwigB> Me, too.
[20:28:30] *** Mode #os2voice +o altsan by ChanServ
[20:28:37] <valerius> altsan yes, there is some VT-x/AMD-V support on OS/4 kernel. If someone want a support on IBM kernels, welcome sponsoring :)
[20:28:56] -*- MrFawlty is not sure about Berlin, agenda challenges
[20:29:13] <valerius> altsan this needs some extra work to work as needed, of course
[20:29:42] <MrFawlty> ok, thanks for the chat folks and AN for all the on going work!
[20:29:54] <LewisR> You bet!
[20:30:03] <LewisR> Thanks for joining us today, everyone!
[20:30:13] <WizardTheCat> Thanks to the Blue Lions for coming to visit us!
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[20:30:53] <Roderick> Sorry MarkO
[20:30:58] <Roderick> I think you just dropped in kind of late...
[20:31:04] <MarkO> Not a Problem..
[20:31:06] <Roderick> We are on the point it seems of wrapping this meeting...
[20:31:19] <MarkO> There is always Next Week
[20:31:33] <Whoknows> I'm gone as well cu all
[20:31:36] <Roderick> Next week we will have another meeting yes. Then at a later date...
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[20:31:36] <MarkO> Did you have a good turnout??
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[20:31:52] <Roderick> About 25 people...
[20:31:53] <eco-dev> ----
[20:32:01] <Roderick> Considering it was annouched that late...
[20:32:03] <Roderick> Not bad...
[20:32:09] <MarkO> That sounds pretty good.
[20:32:11] <Roderick> I could have attracked more people if I send out moe messages...
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[20:33:28] <eco-dev> TOPIC TEST
[20:33:29] <MarkO> There is always the posibility of more attendence with better announcments...
[20:33:43] <MarkO> Keep sending out messages...
[20:34:11] <MarkO> I don't recall seeing any announcments in the OS/2 Warp facebook group...
[20:34:40] <valerius> Roderick and yes, VBox on OS/2 can use uyp to 2 GB of RAM. Not more, because of insufficient address space on 32-bit OS/2. It is useful enourgh. WinXP runs well with 512 MB of RAM. Win7 works well with 768 MB od RAM, if you switch Aero an most bells & whistles. Ubuntu requires about 2 GB for itself, but you can use Xubuntu with LXDE, 768 MB of RAM is sufficient
[20:35:39] <valerius> *switch off
[20:35:56] <eco-dev> LOG of chat: http://en.os2.guru/showarticle.php?id=314
[20:37:28] <MarkO> Execelent..  Somebody archived the chat..
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[20:42:37] <Guest5070> quit
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[20:45:09] <eco-dev> ---
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[20:49:20] <BenRietbroek> eco-dev, the archived chat in this link, http://en.os2.guru/showarticle.php?id=314, is missing parts -- it is incomplete
[20:49:47] <eco-dev> yes.. fixing..
[20:49:54] <eco-dev> replacing <>  with []
[20:50:11] <BenRietbroek> ;)
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[20:52:12] <BenRietbroek> 2late, steven ;)
[20:52:19] <OS4user> wow!   hi StevenL
[20:54:14] <valerius> StevenL
[20:55:18] <StevenL>  Coming to you from the monthly SCOUG meeting.
[20:56:00] <RDPe> kee...
[20:56:11] <StevenL> Never too late. :-)
[20:56:21] <BenRietbroek> hehe ;)
[20:56:54] <BenRietbroek> So, this skeleton visits the doctor...
[20:57:25] <BenRietbroek> Doctor says, Aren't you a bit late?...
[21:02:30] <StevenL> and?
[21:03:17] <BenRietbroek> That's is -- skeletton dead -- doctor cannot fix -- too late -:
[21:03:30] <BenRietbroek> s/is/it/
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[21:12:39] <StevenL> s/skeetton/skeleton/g
[21:13:01] <StevenL> s/skeletton/skeleton/g
[21:20:49] <BenRietbroek> s#:-#:-)#
[21:21:16] <StevenL> That too.
[21:21:26] <StevenL> Bye all.
[21:21:36] <BenRietbroek> Bye Steen
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[21:21:44] <BenRietbroek> s/Steen/Steven/
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[21:34:07] <CrazyBonz> hi *
[21:34:27] <CrazyBonz> guess i missed the speakup...
[21:36:47] <eco-dev> LOG: http://os2.guru/showarticle.php?id=314
[22:00:30] <CrazyBonz> thanks eco-dev
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[23:27:09] <eco-dev>  LOG: http://os2.guru/showarticle.php?id=314
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: воскресенье, 18 февраля 2018 г.}
[00:32:28] <GG_Away> Good night to #os2voice
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[03:39:36] <Gord> test
[03:40:10] <Gord> test1
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: понедельник, 19 февраля 2018 г.}
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: вторник, 20 февраля 2018 г.}
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: среда, 21 февраля 2018 г.}
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[10:57:42] * Channel #os2voice created on Mon Feb 5 15:13:59 2018
[10:57:43] * Homepage for #os2voice is www.os2voice.org
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[10:58:06] * Channel #os2voice created on Mon Feb 5 15:13:59 2018
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: четверг, 22 февраля 2018 г.}
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[09:30:03] * Homepage for #os2voice is www.os2voice.org
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[09:40:28] * Channel #os2voice created on Mon Feb 5 15:13:59 2018
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: пятница, 23 февраля 2018 г.}
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: суббота, 24 февраля 2018 г.}
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[06:47:55] <Igor> This is a test comment.
[08:15:11] <micrex22> Test comment was successful.
[10:19:34] <Igor> I see Paul is on this chat .... FYI os2ports.smedley.id.au is unreachable?
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[12:57:33] <micrex22> igor well his account is, I guess he's afk
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[22:17:21] <roderick> hello
[22:18:19] <ppVicente> hello
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[23:24:42] <Alfred_> Hello?
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[00:00:00] - {Новые сутки. Сегодня: воскресенье, 25 февраля 2018 г.}
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[01:59:57] <roderick> Hello everybody
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[02:00:35] <roderick> Hello everybody
[02:00:40] <Gord> Hello
[02:00:44] <Igor> Gidday.
[02:00:55] <LewisR> Hi!
[02:00:57] <roderick> Well sorry for not having send out more information to mailing lists about this second speak.
[02:01:17] <roderick> It has been a somewhat different week. A familiy member is doing oke but was taken to intensive care wednesday.
[02:01:26] <roderick> So things went slightly different then planned.
[02:01:43] <roderick> Put differently I was hoping for a bigger crowd....
[02:02:07] <roderick> Please note in your agenda that the next speakup will on March 3
[02:02:25] <roderick> Time will be annouched later in an email I will send out.
[02:02:34] <roderick> The speakup will be with the developers from Bitwiseworks.
[02:03:31] <roderick> Speak up normally lasts 1 tot 2 hours...
[02:03:35] <roderick> But that is just about it.
[02:03:48] <roderick> Today people from Arca Noae are our virtual guest.
[02:03:56] <LewisR> :-)
[02:03:57] <roderick> Lewis is here
[02:04:06] <roderick> and Alex.
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[02:04:31] <LewisR> ...and Paul...
[02:04:49] <roderick> Guys the floor is yours... I am hoping for some people from Asia
[02:04:53] <roderick> And aaah from down under
[02:04:57] <roderick> Paul Smedley
[02:05:13] *** Mode #os2voice +o roderick by ChanServ
[02:05:19] <roderick> Morning Paul I hope this speakup is at a more convient moment for you then the previous one...
[02:05:24] *** Mode #os2voice +o altsan by ChanServ
[02:06:06] <LewisR> So, what would you guys like to hear today? Alex is making great strides on getting NLV building. Our first target language will be German.
[02:06:10] <roderick> Anyway my commercial break is over. So now back to the OS/2 guys...
[02:07:24] <LewisR> Actually, related to this, if anyone has any non-English printer fixpacks, please contact us. Alex has the gory details of what we're looking to collect.
[02:08:24] <Alfred_> Hi, sorry I've been silent again since ~Xmas (in case you didn't notice, I'm Alfredo Fdez., from Spain)
[02:08:28] <Alfred_> Re: NLV, I would like to know -for obvious reasons- what are the plans for Spanish?
[02:09:23] <Igor> Keen to know more of the ArcaOS support for hypervisors. We discussed this end of last year at our local user group meeting. Getting drivers sorted for bare metal installs will always be problematic for us. Going virtual gives known config across wider hardware base.
[02:09:29] <Alfred_> I may have a look at printer fixpacks later, but I don't think I have anything that wasn't widely available
[02:09:55] <altsan> We'd also be happy for MCP1/2 ISOs in languages that we don't have...
[02:10:16] <altsan> Spanish is one that we are looking for.
[02:10:24] <Alfred_> I have MCP2 ISOs in several languages so msg me about that
[02:10:42] <LewisR> Alfredo, Spanish is on the list. Excellent. Thanks!
[02:10:44] <Alfred_> obviously including Spanish
[02:11:03] <martini> Hi
[02:11:05] <martini> altsan: Let me check about the Spanish ISO. I'm not sure if the one that I have is working fine.
[02:11:48] <Alfred_> My Spanish ISO boots and installs OK in VPC machines
[02:12:11] <Alfred_> it is esentially where my main OS install came from some 10+ years ago
[02:12:14] <mas1961> I have an unopened shrink-wrap box of OS/2 Version 4 Upgrade in Spanish
[02:12:24] <altsan> Also looking for Taiwanese, Portuguese, and Italian (IIRC)
[02:12:42] <altsan> And Dutch
[02:12:44] <Alfred_> yes, I have older Spanish OS2s too, don't remember which ones
[02:13:30] <altsan> And yes, we are legally entitled to have them, just for the record.
[02:13:47] <Alfred_> OK, cool -- when we are done here I will check my storage and report back -- IIRC I have some Chinese and Japanese
[02:14:16] <altsan> I have Japanese and Simplified Chinese, but need Traditional.
[02:14:17] <Alfred_> but I don't remember Taiwanese (Simplified Chinese?) specifically
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[02:14:36] <Alfred_> sorry, I meant Traditional, as I said will check
[02:14:52] <altsan> Thanks!
[02:15:17] <Alfred_> not at all : )
[02:15:34] <LewisR> Igor, we are planning to improve VM support. Currently, we clearly support VBox & VPC (through 2007, at least). We know that VPC 2010 did away with guest-host file sharing, and Samba is the solution there (we can certainly boot and run and access the network under VPC 2010).
[02:16:27] <LewisR> Other hypervisors which are currently problematic include Hyper-V (should e solved for the most part when we get USB 3) and KVM.
[02:16:58] <Igor> What about QEMU? or VMware Tools (they dropped the tools package after ESX 4 I think)
[02:17:24] <roderick> I have heard reports that VMware never had OS/2 add ons ?
[02:17:30] <roderick> And QEMU did work.
[02:17:35] <LewisR> Yes, QEMU and ESXi, as well as Workstation and Fusion are on our list.
[02:18:02] <roderick> But as it stands right now why not use Virtual since you have the add ons with mouse integration and click board...
[02:18:10] <roderick> I meant Virtualbox
[02:18:31] <LewisR> We know that there are still some audio issues with Fusion, though I did a nice, working install of Workstation 12, in testing. I have not tried QEMU recently, nor ESXi after version 5.
[02:18:41] <LewisR> We are planning to do some things to better select a working audio driver during installation when possible or at least not force Uniaud.
[02:18:50] <martini> Q: Lewis I always wondered which are the most common (or top 10) commercial use of ArcaOS (and OS/2) on these days. Without naming any specific customer can you tell us what kind of software are corporate customers running ArcaOS (Banking, Retail, etc)  ?
[02:19:06] <LewisR> Excellent question.
[02:19:22] <LewisR> Insurance, manufacturing (robotics controls)...
[02:19:42] <LewisR> and some point of sale systems.
[02:20:09] <LewisR> By far, insurance and manufacturing have been the most active clients for us.
[02:20:30] <martini> Any chance to offer ArcaOS on ATMs ? Was there any request?
[02:21:21] <LewisR> In terms of what software they are using, even in insurance, they are running a customized application, and these systems are isolated and away from the internet. No recent request for ATMs, yet, though we do have a lead on some used ATM dealers.
[02:21:55] <martini> Thanks.
[02:22:12] <LewisR> Surely.
[02:22:51] <LewisR> Oh, and we've had some consulting for InJoy running on gateway machines running either eCS or ArcaOS.
[02:23:35] <LewisR> The good news is that with the latest Multimac drivers, we are seeing really good network throughput.
[02:23:46] <LewisR> This keeps us viable on modern systems.
[02:23:50] <LewisR> Speaking of which...
[02:24:19] <Alfred_> [For the record, I have had a customer for 15+ years who does plastic profiles, but tbh I don't know about what he uses OS/2 for, specifically. He has mentioned repeatedly the need for continuity over long periods of time.]
[02:24:44] <LewisR> Interesting.
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[02:25:20] <LewisR> We have another customer of a reseller in the plastics industry, but like yours, I have no clue what application he is using.
[02:25:23] <Gord> LewisR, do you have any comment to make on downloads/sales of 5.0.2?
[02:26:04] <LewisR> They continue to please us, Gordon. I'm no longer amazed, because we are just selling well, and consistently.
[02:26:29] <LewisR> Renewals are coming in, and those are perhaps the greatest indicator of acceptance in the community.
[02:27:17] <LewisR> IOW, if you spend the money for a personal license, and you've used the software for six months, it's a conscious decision to renew support for another year, and we are seeing great renewal numbers.
[02:27:35] <Gord> Good.
[02:27:47] <LewisR> We are also still selling fresh licenses, and this is another key indicator for us, that it wasn't just the initial hype (well, release).
[02:28:16] <LewisR> We just moved a sizeable block of commercial licenses to a large customer, too.
[02:28:46] <LewisR> Ask klipp what he thinks of ArcaOS on Intel systems. ;-)
[02:29:30] <LewisR> Guys, I'm telling you, 5.0.3 will be even smoother than 5.0.2, and 5.1 promises to be incredible.
[02:29:37] <valerius> BTW, VBox additions' shared folders support is in progress. Also QEMU port is being worked on, if someone interested. But it is not financed now at all, so it has been frozen. There is a work going on on support for hardware virtualization on OS/2 host of VirtualBox. So far, it's almost working on top of OS/4 kernel. OS/2 guest now can be run successfuly on OS/2 host. So, if there is an interest, sponsoring request are welcomed. If someone wants AMD-V/VT-x support on IBM kernels, donations and sponsoring is also welcomed. The same applies to fat32.ifs I am workin on too. If you'd like my assistance and feature requests, please sponsor too. (cf: Arca Noae guys) :)
[02:30:40] <LewisR> Thanks for that, valerius.
[02:31:25] <Igor> Definitely keen on QEMU. Don't laugh too loud but keen to see how viable ArcaOS would be on a RaspberryPI (ARM CPU) with QEMU x86.
[02:31:37] <Gord> Can you estimate a release date for 5.0.3?
[02:32:26] <LewisR> Best guess for 5.0.3, Gordon, is probably June-July, and that's a really rough estimate.
[02:32:35] <Gord> OK
[02:33:27] <LewisR> 5.0.3 is kind of an odd duck, because it will happen along the way to 5.1. IOW, the build system is undergoing substantial changes and reorganization to support NLV. 5.0.3 will come together as we work thorugh the process.
[02:33:58] <LewisR> We have about a half dozen blockers for 5.0.3 (maybe a couple more than that), but they'll get done as we work toward 5.1.
[02:34:13] <LewisR> It just doesn't make sense to make everyone wait for 5.1 for fixes.
[02:34:26] <LewisR> 5.1 is a feature release.
[02:35:31] <LewisR> Among those new features we want to introduce with 5.1 are upgrade and migration, so people don't need to wipe out a 10-year-old working eCS installation to install ArcaOS.
[02:35:32] <valerius> Igor ArcaOS is not viable on ARM at all, because OS/2 kernel is i386, only. But if you want future support for OS/2 API on ARM or amd64, please help the osFree project. There is some work going on on implementing OS/2 API on top of L4 microkernel, but it is in early stage yet. BTW, some commandline OS/2 binaries (pure 32-bit Watcom-built binaries) can already be run successfully, if you don't know
[02:36:05] <martini> Q: I was wondering if for future releases of ArcaOS more enhancements can be put on xWorkplace. It can be interesting if xWorkplace classes names can be organized (to comply to the own standard of the program) and try to merge other WPS classes to that project to bring more order to it. Like taking what it working fine of WPS-Wizard and try to embedded it to XWP.  Or changing the CW-MM...
[02:36:07] <martini> ...classes to the same XWP standards. The issues is that for someone that looks under the hood on WorkplaceShell all the non-IBM-classes looks confusing.
[02:36:49] <LewisR> I would direct all XWP enhancement requests to the Xtracker (xtracker.netlabs.org - is that right?).
[02:37:22] <LewisR> WPS Wizard is nice software, but lacks a solid maintainer.
[02:38:01] <Alfred_> Lewis, https://xtracker.netlabs.org, yes
[02:38:08] <LewisR> Thanks.
[02:38:45] <altsan> Of course, there may be backwards compatibility issues involved in changing class names around.
[02:38:47] <LewisR> We had another RFE recently for ArcaOS Desktop, which I referred to the Xtracker. Remember that other than widgets, ArcaOS Desktop is derived from XWP. It really doesn't make sense for us to make changes for ArcaOS Desktop which don't flow down to us from upstream.
[02:39:07] <LewisR> There is that to consider, absolutely.
[02:40:50] <Alfred_> Martin, you said "issues is that for someone that looks under the hood on WorkplaceShell all the non-IBM-classes looks confusing". What do you mean? All XWP's (non-IBM) classes are well documented IIRC, so what is the problem?
[02:41:50] <valerius> Igor BTW, there is a QEMU 0.11.0 port done by JSawa. It works quite good, though still no HW virtualization support, so far. I plan to update it to newer version and maybe, port the HW acceleration driver
[02:42:21] <Igor> I'd be keen to test.
[02:42:43] <LewisR> Expect a Samba and Kerberos update to the latest available (for 5.0.3), and in 5.1, and enhanced credentials manager for better management of Kerberos tickets. This is really important for those environments where we need to interact with Active Directory (and to some extent, eDirectory, where pluggable authentication is in use with the Kerberos module).
[02:43:11] <LewisR> We are also actively investigating support for UEFI on systems with no CSM. This means the ability to boot on non-BIOS systems "natively."
[02:43:27] <LewisR> Natively=in some fashion not yet determined.
[02:44:35] <martini> Alfred: The main issue is that you have like a lot of classes for WPDrive or WPDesktop. I think (subject to discussion) that a cleaner version will be to have the IBM one (parent) and one child (XWP one). Right not it is kind of confusing if someone will like to do some WPS programing to extend the classes.
[02:45:10] <LewisR> You mean multiple layers of subclassing.
[02:45:42] <valerius> Igor http://bauxite.sakura.ne.jp/tmp/os2/ unfortunately, I don't see the binaries there now, but I can upload them to my ftp, if someone is interested
[02:46:44] <valerius> LewisR do you mean the possibility to add an "external" BIOS CSM module?
[02:47:09] <LewisR> Not sure yet. This is what we are doing in the R&D phase: exploring different possibilities.
[02:47:37] <Alfred_> Martin: if something tries to subclass XWPDrive (or whatever) and you rename that class in a new version of XWP, anything trying to subclass it will no longer be able to find that class by name and will fail.
[02:47:46] <LewisR> The goal is to drop the dependency upon traditional BIOS and vendor-supplied CSM.
[02:48:22] <martiniturbide[m> About XWP: I know that the multple WPS classes childs are required for the functionality and that some developers don't want to consolidate/share their creations, but I think it can be interesting to put some efforts on consolidating that.
[02:49:27] <martiniturbide[m> Alfred: As a little example I think that all  WPDrive childs should be consolidated on  XWPDrive to have more order (under the hood).
[02:50:02] <LewisR> Speaking of classes...
[02:51:08] <LewisR> CWMM needs a solid maintainer. Do you know that digital audio transfer was never added to it? This is one of the enhancements we'd like to see.
[02:52:08] <LewisR> Now, whether it makes sense to consolidate any of these things with something else remains to be seen (frankly, some of us feel that XWP has grown beyond its design limits to include way too much).
[02:53:45] <LewisR> So, who has tried Alex's new Qt-based text editor?
[02:54:07] <LewisR> You really should.
[02:54:21] <LewisR> We plan for it to replace AE.
[02:54:22] <Gord> What is it called?
[02:54:35] <LewisR> Alex, info and link, please.
[02:55:23] <altsan> Tricky for me to type right now... on my phone...
[02:55:28] <LewisR> :-)
[02:55:32] <LewisR> Quick Editor.
[02:55:41] <Alfred_> LewisR, while you are probably (very) right about XWP having grown beyond its original design limits, it would still be very nice to see major open source WPS enhancers converging, so to speak, to cooperate as much as possible with one another without interfering (think of XWP+CWMM combinations, etc.)
[02:55:51] <LewisR> I'll get you the link. one moment... SeaMonkey to the rescue...
[02:56:06] <altsan> Github.org/altsan/quick-text-editor
[02:56:23] <LewisR> https://github.com/altsan/quick-text-editor
[02:56:48] <LewisR> I just had to switch windows and grab it from my recent history...
[02:57:09] <altsan> Technically its name is QE or "quick text editor" but the latter is more or a provisional description
[02:58:06] <LewisR> Alfredo: Where it makes sense, these enhancements should become part of the OS base, it's kind of difficult to make changes like that at this point (we're not IBM). Still, where other things can be merged, they should be.
[02:58:11] <martiniturbide[m> I think that if XWP has grown beyond its design limits, it can be interesting to make stand alone "XWP friendly apps" that are separated but uses the same XWP naming standard to have good coherence and matching with all the WPS desktop.
[02:58:27] <martiniturbide[m> I'm leaving now. Thanks for the chat !!
[02:58:33] <LewisR> Yes, that is an excellent idea.
[02:58:35] <LewisR> Cheers!
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[02:59:50] <LewisR> How does everyone feel about us incorporating more Qt-based apps in ArcaOS, especially when we get Qt5?
[03:00:09] <Alfred_> Martin's looks like another way to formulate what I said, seems we're more on less on the same page
[03:00:29] <micrex22> LewisR: Q: hey Lewis, I run ArcaOS on a bunch of T4xes, are there any plans for regular mini PCI wireless cards?
[03:00:45] <Igor> the easier the QT app installion process is the more widely it'll be adopted.
[03:00:47] <LewisR> Well...
[03:01:00] <LewisR> Indeed, so, Igor.
[03:01:10] <LewisR> As I am typing this from my trusty T43...
[03:01:29] <Alfred_> Re.: QT apps I need nothing, but I'll be happy to get anything ready from the get-go. And of course, what Igor said. +1
[03:01:50] <LewisR> I think the Wi-Fi support in Multimac will focus on the cards which currently are *not* already supported by GenMAC.
[03:02:38] <LewisR> IOW, we already have working support for mPCI cards up through the Intel 4965 series (T6x).
[03:02:39] <Alfred_> My target systems will be T42s and T43s initially as well, for the record, so supporting new Wifi (especially n) miniPCI cards would be very nice.
[03:03:03] <micrex22> LewisR The T43 keyboards sure are nice (and no Windows keys!)
[03:03:24] <Alfred_> *n = 100+MBits/s
[03:03:52] <LewisR> Well, if there are mPCI n cards we don't support already, we can always look at them. Here's the neat thing about Multimac: Once the framework is in place, many drivers just "drop into" it.
[03:04:27] <LewisR> Indeed! No Windows keys, sensible placement, and Alps keyswitches (well for some keyboard FRUs, at least)!
[03:05:15] <LewisR> For WiFi, we need to look forward to ac and ax cards, so getting this framework together is crucial, so we're not yet another generation behind.
[03:06:34] <Alfred_> Yep, as bad as laptop keyboards are, at least T42/3 have proper control blocks (pgup/dn,ins,del,home/end) in place, and are strong : )
[03:07:01] <micrex22> yeah the 7 rows are fantastic, it's very much akin to the 84-key space saving buckling spring keyboard
[03:07:15] <micrex22> you don't have to 'guess' where the regular keys have been remapped to
[03:07:25] <LewisR> I am constantly hitting Del when I mean Ins on the T520. The T530 is completely zany.
[03:08:34] <LewisR> I wish there were good, affordable, alternative replacement keyboards available for these machines (not the T43, but more recent systems).
[03:08:42] <altsan> My W500 is the last generation of ThinkPad I will ever buy, unless Lenovo gets a clue someday.
[03:09:14] <LewisR> Very frustrating, I know. The chicklet keys on the T530 are particularly hard to use.
[03:09:28] <LewisR> BTW, speaking of keyboards...
[03:09:35] <Alfred_> Even T43s I must use with a regular keyboard (I do A LOT of text editing) -- newer stuff looks like hell, haha
[03:09:43] <micrex22> LewisR: also the Lenovo chiclet style (while I can 'adapt' and type fairly fast on), still have issues. My finger nails can sometimes can caught 'under' one of the chiclet keycaps, and the shorter travel distance just reduces accuracy.
[03:10:23] <Igor> On the topic of Browsers .... how feasible is it to port Chromium to ArcaOS? Need something that is modern/common and therefore not going to get "Sorry - we don't support your browser" from banks etc...
[03:10:47] <roderick> This is actually something I can partially answer.
[03:11:00] <roderick> VOICE Has been running a browser funding campaign for BWW.
[03:11:14] <Alfred_> And don't forget lack of support from half-assed https implementations (which abound)
[03:11:28] <LewisR> LOL
[03:11:39] <roderick> https://articles.os2voice.org
[03:11:59] <roderick> Yes it seems possible to port Chromium to OS/2.
[03:12:05] <roderick> But its going to take a lot of work!!
[03:12:24] <roderick> The main effort is to port QT (latest version).
[03:12:28] <Alfred_> LewisR, seriously, I often look at websites from Google cache to bypass their https problems
[03:12:36] <roderick> Thats what Chromium uses in the back.
[03:12:40] <Alfred_> Roderick, is it QT5?
[03:12:42] <LewisR> Qt5 should give us the ability to get an alternative browser to the platform. The question is whether that is a more viable option than looking at everything needed for porting rust and being able to build newer Firefoxes.
[03:12:59] <LewisR> Chromium will require Qt5, yes.
[03:13:36] <roderick> Actually multiple QT based browsers....
[03:13:40] <LewisR> I generally deal with the lousy https configurations and browser detection by spoofing my UA.
[03:13:55] <roderick> Then again its not the browser really itself. Its the QT backend that delivers 85% to 90% of the code...
[03:14:09] <Alfred_> The problem with RUST is AFAIK it's only good to get FX running, and it is becoming a sluggish behemoth anyway. OTOH QT5...
[03:14:45] <LewisR> Maybe our friends upstream at Mozilla will see the light and return to their senses.
[03:14:45] <Alfred_> LewisR, I know about UA spoofing, but that's not possible with Links and such
[03:15:02] <LewisR> Agreed. It is not a true solution to the problem.
[03:15:36] <LewisR> Now, what you could use is VBox and run a slim Linux guest there for some sites.
[03:16:33] <LewisR> I'm not a big fan of running a hypervisor on OS/2, but I do have a very light 32-bit Linux build which runs in a fairly small footprint (getting old, now, so time to upgrade).
[03:17:33] <Alfred_> LewisR, thanks for the idea but not really, I use Links for ultra fast browsing. Many alternate browsers like it can do https, just not all the weird hoops and loops lousy sites try to make you go through. If I need to boot a whole alternate machine / virtual guest I might as well run a full fledged beast
[03:17:40] <Alfred_> I mean browser
[03:18:50] <LewisR> My point is that if you only need an alternative for a single application (browser, in this case), a small VM might make sense. I agree, though, that if you can use Links or Lynx, go for it.
[03:20:02] <LewisR> Anyway, Qt5 will be coming, and we'll see which directi9on we take for a browser.
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[03:20:27] <micrex22> LewisR: noscript also makes a lot of sense on OS/2 as well, since it cuts out a lot of bloated javascript (which... you wouldn't really want running anyways)
[03:21:17] <LewisR> Absolutely.
[03:21:40] <LewisR> JS is a real issue for us, and has been a major focus of dmik's recent work for 45.9.
[03:22:01] <LewisR> Of course, now that Alex is getting comfortable with Qt, he may just do a browser when he puts together a mail client. then we'd at least have a matching set which would fit well with the ArcaOS desktop. :-)
[03:22:03] <LewisR> <gdr>
[03:22:10] <Alfred_> So true. I actually do 90+% of my browsing with javascript disabled. How does Chromium (or other QT5 browsers) deal with that?
[03:22:32] <roderick> We will find out by then...
[03:22:37] <LewisR> Well, for one thing, they trend to handle the JS better than FF.
[03:22:41] <roderick> I consider Firefox long term RIP.
[03:23:23] <Alfred_> I still use my (old) SM as a canonical target system for my JS development
[03:23:27] <LewisR> As a SeaMonkey user, I hope against hope that Mozilla comes under new management and returns to Earth.
[03:23:38] <LewisR> :-)
[03:23:40] <Alfred_> there's nothing sensible I haven't been able to do so far
[03:23:44] <roderick> Next to Rust being an issue. One other mayor complaint is that Firefox it s source is updated so massively its hard for Dmitry and BWW
[03:23:52] <roderick> to keep up with the changes.
[03:24:19] <roderick> So we have 2 issue's 1. RUST and 2. To many changes, swapping libraries adding new libraries.
[03:24:30] <Igor> and Firefox isn't all that great for an enterprise environment either.
[03:24:36] <roderick> And this complaint has been voiced a lot.
[03:24:46] <roderick> Then you can use the ESR release Igor.
[03:25:04] <LewisR> Well, we know that as of right now, FF52 ESR is a wall for us. That will probably hold us through 2019 and into 2020, but by that time, we will need an alternative.
[03:26:05] <LewisR> Of course, there are those of us who dislike Chromium, so finding a decent alternative (especially for those of us who prefer an integrated browser suite) will be challenging.
[03:26:15] <Alfred_> I use ESR FXs for my parents Win32 laptops' and such -- so painless compared to 'cleeding edge' FX
[03:26:41] <LewisR> No doubt.
[03:27:21] <Alfred_> *bleeding. But for myself, I'd prefer to see something SeaMonkeyish -- Practically all I do is browser + mail all day long
[03:28:06] <LewisR> Yes, exactly. For us, the integrated suite makes sense. Webmail is not an option (for me).
[03:29:00] <LewisR> Anyway, do we have anything else concerning ArcaOS or the subscription services?
[03:29:15] <Alfred_> Exactly, no point in two very memory-hungry apps competing for resources, and I have been known to handle 10+ mailboxes automatically with SM, webmail is a no-go here for me either.
[03:29:46] <Alfred_> LewisR, sorry, sure, back to topic : )
[03:29:59] <LewisR> No worries.
[03:30:18] <Alfred_> Has the USB boot stuff been tried on T42s and T43s?
[03:30:31] <LewisR> Yes!
[03:30:32] <Alfred_> My own stuff is getting old : )
[03:30:45] <LewisR> I'm running the very latest 32-bit USB stack right here.
[03:30:53] <altsan> I tested it successfully on an R31
[03:31:13] <LewisR> I can boot with it, transfer files to sticks and drives, and run my other USB things.
[03:31:23] <LewisR> Works just fine on the T43.
[03:31:39] <Alfred_> Cool! Booting and installing an updated system is becoming a real concern here as I'm running out of spares
[03:31:50] <LewisR> No doubt!
[03:32:26] <LewisR> We're working on an update package for existing ArcaOS 5.0.x system to the 5.0.2 level. We want to get everyone the updates released in the latest ISO, without requiring everyone to reinstall from scratch (or download a 1GB image just to pick a handful of bits).
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[03:33:14] <Alfred_> Not a problem for me yet, but very kind of you : ))
[03:33:20] <LewisR> :-)
[03:33:50] <LewisR> Anything else?
[03:34:48] <roderick> It seems not...
[03:34:51] <roderick> Going once
[03:34:51] <Igor> Anythought to producing a solid easy to install MS SQL Server ODBC connector?
[03:35:04] <Alfred_> Yes, you said migration is not planned before 5.1?
[03:35:19] <LewisR> Okay, let me take these in order:
[03:35:24] <Alfred_> i.e you'll be able to migrate old systems with 5.1 but not 5.0.x
[03:35:46] <LewisR> Igor: No specific plans, but we would surely be interested in looking at something like this.
[03:35:58] <micrex22> LewisR: interesting... so the Intel PRO/Wireless 2915ABG already works with ArcaOS then?
[03:36:21] <LewisR> Yes. Works with GenMAC quite well.
[03:36:30] <LewisR> All modes.
[03:36:34] <micrex22> Guess I'll need to get a couple :p
[03:36:50] <micrex22> I want a stand alone OS/2 laptop at work that can connect to corporate wifi
[03:37:03] <micrex22> then I can have a peace of mind after dealing with windows 10 and server 2016 all day
[03:37:06] <LewisR> ;-)
[03:37:07] <LewisR> Alfredo: Migration and Upgrade are 2 different things for us.
[03:37:43] <LewisR> Migration: Existing Warp 4, MCP, MCP2, eCS system -> ArcaOS 5.1.
[03:38:01] <LewisR> Upgrade: ArcaOS 5.0.x -> ArcaOS 5.1.
[03:38:48] <LewisR> Let me clarify migration a bit further.
[03:39:46] <LewisR> Migration (without the ArcaUpdater product - planned!) will go from any SMP-licensed OS/2 distro to ArcaOS 5.1.
[03:40:04] <LewisR> This does not even require a new IBM license.
[03:40:51] <LewisR> ArcaUpdater is a different type of migration, in the sense that ArcaUpdater will start with a non-MCP-licensed OS/2 distro (Warp 4) and move that to ArcaOS 5.1.
[03:41:01] <LewisR> There is a new license required for this.
[03:41:27] <micrex22> LewisR: I was kind of curious, will ArcaOS ever be released without the Windows 3.1 portions? Or is that baked into the last 4.52 IBM relaese
[03:41:29] <LewisR> Upgrade (ArcaOS -> ArcaOS) does not require a new IBM license.
[03:41:54] <LewisR> It's rather baked in. You can opt not to install it, of course.
[03:42:30] <micrex22> So then I guess Microsoft would always need to be contracted for a license, too bad
[03:42:54] <roderick> That contract is long gone...
[03:43:10] <LewisR> Well, that's on IBM. IOW, they licensed Warp 4 to us, as-is.
[03:44:07] <LewisR> The reason for the requirement of the IBM license for the ArcaUpdater product is that ArcaOS includes SMP. We can't provide an SMP license without providing a Warp 4 license.
[03:44:35] <micrex22> LewisR: my last question, do you use the soundmax driver for your T43s or the universal one that's included with ArcaOS
[03:44:42] <LewisR> We have no plans to provide a distro of ArcaOS without SMP as an included, installable option, so... IBM license.
[03:45:07] <LewisR> I use Uniaud these days on my T43. Sound quality is excellent.
[03:45:35] <LewisR> It's been great chatting with everyone again. Hope to see everyone at WSE or Warpstock (look for an announcement about Warpstock here in the next day or so!).
[03:45:56] <LewisR> Warpstock here = Warpstock North America
[03:46:09] <roderick> Thanks for dropping by everybody
[03:46:21] <LewisR> Cheers
[03:46:23] <roderick> Thanks AN people for dropping by.
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[03:46:34] <roderick> Logs will be posted later on os2voice.org.
[03:46:36] <altsan> Cheers
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[03:47:20] <mas1961> Thanks
[03:47:20] <Igor> Cheers.
[03:48:22] <TerryW> Thanks
[03:48:33] <Alfred_> Thank you
[03:48:36] <Gord> Igor, what user group do you belong to?
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[03:49:38] <Igor> Wellington , New Zealand
[03:49:54] <Igor> Down to 5 regulars now
[03:50:08] <Gord> OK.  Is the group listed on the VOICE website's Groups page?
[03:50:22] <Gord> If not, would you like it added?
[03:50:36] <Igor> not sure. We have a web site but don't even bother to update it.
[03:50:47] <Gord> URL?
[03:51:24] <Igor> www.os2.org.nz
[03:51:26] <Gord> I'm doing some work updating the VOICE website.
[03:51:36] <Igor> Hah - last update in 2011
[03:51:39] <Gord> OK.
[03:51:59] <Igor> I might look at that when I can find some time.
[03:52:06] <Gord> Contact person?
[03:52:16] <Gord> OK
[03:52:36] <Igor> Igor Pool   igorpool@xtra.co.nz
[03:52:43] <Gord> Got it.
[03:53:39] <Igor> We always finish our meetings at the local pub so there is added incentive to turn up :-)
[03:53:57] <Gord> Sounds perfect!
[03:56:41] <roderick> Everybody thank you for coming.
[03:56:47] <roderick> Its 02:00 here in the Netherlands/.
[03:56:52] <roderick> I am going to bed.
[03:57:00] <roderick> See you at the next speakup!
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[03:58:32] <Alfred_> Same here. Night everyone!
[03:59:02] <Igor> Time for lunch. Bye.
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[05:02:38] <Smedles> oops missed it - was out dog walking :)
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