OS2VOICE Speak Up - March 3, 2018

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[10:50:05] <roderick> hello
[10:51:16] <MrFawlty> Hi Roderick
[10:51:57] <Gord> Hi
[10:54:30] <mseidel> Hi!
[10:56:49] <roderick> Aaah the master of disaster just entered the room :-)
[10:56:53] <roderick> MrFawlty...
[10:56:55] <roderick> ....
[10:57:23] -*- MrFawlty sees Roderick indeed
[10:57:41] <roderick> Making a joke with this guy is not always a smart move.
[10:57:44] <roderick> Come well prepared...
[10:58:20] <Thomas__> Good evening
[10:58:23] <roderick> Hello
[10:58:40] *** Mode #os2voice +o roderick by martini
[10:58:44] <OS4user> hi ppl
[10:59:25] -*- MrFawlty wonders if IRC works below snow
[11:03:59] <_diver> Sorry I was in the wrong channel
[11:04:04] <_diver> Hi all
[11:04:11] <MrFawlty> typical for a diver ;-)
[11:04:15] <HerwigB> Hi all
[11:05:14] <_diver> I'm pretty sure roderick wants to start
[11:05:28] <MrFawlty> when he is back from fetching tea
[11:06:09] <StevenL> Or riding his unicycle.
[11:06:32] <MrFawlty> hehe, a unicorn on a unicycle, towards the universe
[11:06:35] <HerwigB> Let him finish his Coffee
[11:06:53] <MrFawlty> you really want him awake? ;-)
[11:07:01] -*- MrFawlty goes in silent mode
[11:07:33] <roderick> Anyay welcome everybody...
[11:07:35] <Thomas__> \_/o \_/o \_/o \_/o <-- If anybody likes coffee
[11:08:02] <roderick> I thought it would be nice for people to have a time to talk to our development friends at BWW.
[11:08:22] <roderick> While we have people like Paul Smedley who do a lot of work on the GCC /LIBC framework.
[11:08:35] <roderick> The work the guys at BWW do is needed very hard.
[11:08:58] <roderick> They work on the web browser Firefox, Open Office. Pretty crucial parts to make OS/2 useable I would say.
[11:09:16] <roderick> Silvan the floor is yours. Its your company not min...
[11:09:25] <roderick> mine...
[11:09:37] <roderick> So maybe you can give a brief introduction.
[11:10:07] <_diver> I hope all know what we do
[11:10:11] <roderick> And tell us what you are currently working on and if people have questions please let us know. But please one question at the time.
[11:11:28] <_diver> We work on a lot stuff in parallel atm. Like Firefox,  AOO, injoy and a lot updates of ports
[11:11:46] <MrFawlty> bww is working on various essential projects indeed, what is the limiting factor with these?
[11:11:59] <_diver> In the near future we start finally with Qt5
[11:12:46] <_diver> The limiting factor is mostly the lack of funding
[11:13:29] <roderick> As I always say, free software does not grow on trees.
[11:13:34] <-> ppVicente is now known as JoseVicenteRuiz
[11:13:41] <MrFawlty> ok, sponsor units
[11:13:43] <roderick> Well the source code is there but porting to OS/2 does simply take financial resources.
[11:14:10] <Sigurd4Warp> What is the status of the "Beyond Firefox" time, are there some plans?
[11:14:42] <_diver> We are still confident a Qt browser will be it
[11:15:29] <HerwigB> Basically QT5 is going to be the basis for a New Browser
[11:15:40] <MrFawlty> cool
[11:16:28] <Sigurd4Warp> Are there plans regarding JAVA
[11:16:30] <Sigurd4Warp> ?
[11:16:46] <_diver> We could work further on Firefox as well. But we really doubt the company would sponsor enough
[11:17:23] <HerwigB> We want to update Java, too.
[11:17:25] <MrFawlty> and Firefox goes into an area which is not possible on OS/2-like OS-es isn't it?
[11:17:35] <_diver> Java is another port we need. But again. First we need funding.
[11:17:40] <MrFawlty> area=direction
[11:18:00] <HerwigB> Problem is Rust
[11:18:20] <MrFawlty> what is Rust?
[11:18:26] <_diver> Almost everything is portable. But it needs a lot time. Which means a lot money
[11:18:39] <Sigurd4Warp> Regarding Funding, what happened to the 10.000 Dollar funding? And - more important - thank you very much for your work and your answers here! :-)
[11:18:49] <_diver> Rust is some kind of compiler
[11:18:55] <MrFawlty> ah, thx
[11:18:59] <roderick> It not just that but I get the impression Dmitry is getting nuts of the other massive changes being by the Mozilla foundation. That is part II
[11:19:01] <HerwigB> A New language requirwd to Build Firefox
[11:19:19] <MrFawlty> ok, clear
[11:19:34] <HerwigB> We Lack the Compiler
[11:19:59] <Paperino> hi all
[11:20:11] <_diver> The 10k funding is a voice thinggy. So we have no idea how far it is
[11:20:28] <roderick> We are currently at about 6900 Dollars (I would need to check again). And a further 1100 Dollars in VOICE sponsorship the board could appoint to QT funding...
[11:20:43] <roderick> I have been rather busy moving to a new house, new job etc.
[11:20:54] <Sigurd4Warp> So, the plan is: first QT5, than the Browser.
[11:21:02] <mseidel> Hi Yuri!
[11:21:30] <Paperino> hi Mattial
[11:21:32] <Paperino> hi Mattias
[11:21:39] <_diver> Yes as Qt5 has webkit. And when this works a browser is a easy port
[11:22:24] <Sigurd4Warp> What amount is needed to get QT5 ready, are the 8.000 Dollars enough or how much is missing?
[11:22:46] <_diver> We expect a 12 month work
[11:23:26] --> pacoos2[m] (pacoos2mat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-anjheueyjedldfqx) has joined #os2voice
[11:23:29] <_diver> And for Qt 8k is far not enough.
[11:23:37] <MrFawlty> yeah, with Qt5 a slew of ready programs will get available
[11:23:54] <roderick> Note that the 10000 Dollars I set was a first target to get started...
[11:24:01] <pacoos2[m]> hi
[11:24:16] <roderick> BWW did that in the past as well to collect funding for a project in different stages...
[11:24:17] <Sigurd4Warp> I really appreciate this, but where should the rest come from?
[11:24:17] <_diver> @Roderick we know that
[11:24:28] <MrFawlty> but that was for the browser, or is that indirectly now also available for Qt5?
[11:24:31] <roderick> I was expecting Sigurd his question.
[11:24:46] <roderick> Where would the rest come from. A next round of funding would come.
[11:25:12] <roderick> Should I have set the target to 25.000 Dollars ? I wonder if people would have even started to donate in the first place.
[11:25:27] <_diver> We have a couple of ideas. Community funding is one.
[11:25:43] <Sigurd4Warp> I do not want to be negativ, it is just to have an idea what is needed in the end.
[11:26:04] <MrFawlty> yeah, good feedback about progress surely will help as well
[11:26:06] <_diver> Some kind of subscription is another idea.
[11:26:18] <Sigurd4Warp> 12 Months of work, what is the usual needed for one month?
[11:26:19] <-- HerwigB (~androirc@ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[11:26:24] <MrFawlty> I am trying to do that via the netlabs newsletter and I can follow some bww projects for that
[11:27:20] <MrFawlty> btw, bww communicates via tweets as well! Which is good to follow!
[11:27:31] <Sigurd4Warp> Roderick, I think it would be better to tell sponsors very early what is needed at all, even if it is a high amount
[11:27:50] <Sigurd4Warp> it just sounds better than "10.000 is only the start"
[11:28:19] <MrFawlty> yeah, would be surprising to picture this for getting a house ;-)
[11:28:27] <_diver> That's true and false ๐Ÿ˜‚
[11:28:31] <Sigurd4Warp> As a Sponsor I would think - why should I sponsor if I do not know if it will make a difference in the end
[11:29:02] <MrFawlty> driver: can you explain what you mean by that?
[11:29:08] <_diver> Every USD counts. And a start is a start.
[11:30:07] <_diver> Sometimes ppl need to be cheated. Means give them a smaller number and when they see progress they believe it's going to work
[11:30:29] <MrFawlty> is there a plan with milestones?
[11:30:40] <Sigurd4Warp> In this case I think it is different. At least from what I have heard from others.
[11:30:41] <_diver> If you set it to 30k at first all might think this will never happen
[11:31:14] <roderick> I think its save to say up some level what BWW is doing is on a best effort bases. What I mean by this is that lets say they say it take 12 monts it might take more it might take less.
[11:31:21] <_diver> Milestones come soon. We are still to much bound to Firefox
[11:31:22] <Sigurd4Warp> But on the other hand - why should I sponsor if i can not be sure it will ever happen?
[11:31:24] <roderick> One thing we do know they have always had shortage of funding.
[11:31:40] <MrFawlty> diver: ok, understand that
[11:31:48] <roderick> Because its our only way forward I am very much afraid.
[11:32:16] <roderick> The BWW guys have always asked for more funding over the years. They are underfunded basically.
[11:32:19] <_diver> If it doesn't happen the os is dead
[11:32:29] --> HerwigB (~HerwigB@ has joined #os2voice
[11:32:33] -*- MrFawlty knows funding BWW is one of the best investments for sure
[11:32:45] <Sigurd4Warp> But that is not enough, sorry. I know, BWW does a gread job, they are underfunded.
[11:33:03] <_diver> Until now we think we delivered what we promised
[11:33:08] <roderick> What is different between now and when BWW started.
[11:33:10] <MrFawlty> and BWW showed a good pipeline of work at WSE as well
[11:33:14] <roderick> The blunt answer is nothing Sigurd
[11:33:15] <Sigurd4Warp> But there are to many "If" in this case
[11:33:27] <roderick> That has always been the case
[11:33:30] <HerwigB> Rehi!
[11:33:36] <Sigurd4Warp> The Difference it the amount of possible sponsors and the amount of work and money therfore neede
[11:33:48] <pacoos2[m]> i begin to pray :-) god helps os/2-ecomstation-ArcaOS people again, like it did when it come ArcaOS 5.0 alive :-)
[11:34:20] <HerwigB> Well, every single support units counts.
[11:34:34] <_diver> We have only this chance. No Qt5 or better no browser, then the os is useless
[11:34:35] <MrFawlty> well, let's see which products we are now being able to use, due to long standing BBW work ;-)
[11:34:48] <Sigurd4Warp> Without a more detailed plan and more estimated full costs I will not be able to pursuade anyone to sponsor
[11:35:13] <Sigurd4Warp> I know that this is the only chance, that is right. Therefore I try to explain my point of view
[11:35:15] <_diver> As said the Qt5 plan is in the works
[11:35:16] <roderick> What more detail would like ?
[11:35:28] <roderick> SOmebody needs to sit down and start working on this. That is all.
[11:35:39] <Sigurd4Warp> How much will it cost, roderick
[11:35:43] <Sigurd4Warp> Estimated
[11:35:56] <roderick> Silvan said 12 months.
[11:35:58] <roderick> Dmitry told me 9.
[11:36:07] <Sigurd4Warp> And a month costs?
[11:36:10] <MrFawlty> can we park this subject and give BWW some time to work on a plan?
[11:36:11] <roderick> The whole thing they can not look into a cystal ball
[11:36:15] <MrFawlty> and focus on other items?
[11:36:22] <HerwigB> The difference is testing and things like that.
[11:36:34] <_diver> We did that. And it's 12. As 9 os the core and 3 for the webkit
[11:36:46] <Sigurd4Warp> Well, it is cotraproducktive, Roderick, when one aks for facts to answer with a crystal ball.
[11:37:15] <_diver> Anyway a more detailed road map is coming soon
[11:37:32] <MrFawlty> great
[11:37:56] <mseidel> Will bww be at Warpstock Europe 2018 in Berlin?
[11:38:22] <_diver> Almost 100% I will be there
[11:38:53] <Sigurd4Warp> Someone told me the Difference between chinese and german engineering - while the Germans allways want to solve all possible problems before they start, the Chinese just satrt and solv the problems when those occur
[11:39:18] <_diver> We do that don't worry
[11:39:33] <mseidel> @_diver: Great! Looking forward to meeting you
[11:39:51] <MrFawlty> Sigurd4Warp: I have seen the results from that in real life. You don't want Chinese ;-)
[11:39:53] <_diver> But w/o partial funding we can't start at all.
[11:40:02] <Sigurd4Warp> And that is here the case: without an estimated cost plan it will be very hard to find someone here around to sponsor
[11:40:02] <HerwigB> Well, in order to provide some figures:
[11:40:23] -*- MrFawlty will sponsor for sure, real soon
[11:41:21] <HerwigB> we need approximately 3500 โ‚ฌ to cover all costs for one month.
[11:41:41] <Sigurd4Warp> Thanks, Herwig.
[11:41:54] <HerwigB> So, if Qt5 requires 1 Year of tijme, that makes
[11:42:01] <MrFawlty> 42K
[11:42:06] <Szarik> Sorry, can somebody point me to the current state of WebKit for OS2. Some of our Objective C programmers doing fancy things with it, but I can not see a Objective C compiler and framework for OS2 available.
[11:42:59] <_diver> We speak about webkit as in Qt
[11:43:31] <_diver> There is no objective C as I know of
[11:43:33] <Szarik> So it's not relates to apple webkit?
[11:44:14] <_diver> They use the same root. But it's adapted to Qt
[11:44:32] <MrFawlty> so the provided interface to developers should be the same
[11:45:45] <Szarik> I don't know. Is JavaScriptCore not included in Qt-webkit?
[11:46:01] <_diver> Sure it is
[11:48:13] <MrFawlty> is RPM and YUM also BWW?
[11:48:32] <_diver> Mostly yes. As we update and fix it
[11:48:55] <_diver> Rpm yum python perl
[11:49:08] <MrFawlty> are people working, not necessary BWW, to add old software and WPI towards RPM library?
[11:49:39] <HerwigB> Well, at least BWW does that.
[11:50:03] <_diver> I know some try. But just packing is sometimes wrong. As old software uses non standard locations
[11:50:11] <HerwigB> several of the older REXX libraries are packaged as rpm meanwhile
[11:50:18] <HerwigB> more to come.
[11:50:19] <MrFawlty> hmm, ok
[11:50:21] <martini> Hi
[11:50:22] <MrFawlty> cool
[11:50:45] <martini> Q: About SWT. I'm a fan of eclipse and some other SWT, but I'm not sure of the relevance of having a SWT/Eclipse port for the OS/2 platform today. Counting that there is a priority of having a modern browser (and Qt5), will it make sense after those projects to port SWT to OS/2? What do you think it will be potential of SWT on OS/2 ?
[11:50:51] <_diver> Wrong location in rpm terms
[11:50:51] <MrFawlty> yup
[11:51:19] <_diver> Swt goes along with java
[11:52:10] <_diver> No new java no swt. But as said earlier we know of that lack. And I also want to solve that
[11:54:30] <_diver> Btw if anyone has questions for us. Please don't post in forums.
[11:54:50] <roderick> And if you have an issue with software you develop.
[11:54:58] <roderick> No ticket=no bug
[11:55:00] <roderick> :-)
[11:55:03] <Szarik> What happened to the attempt of VirtualBox host support for OS2?
[11:55:04] <_diver> The reason is we read them not regularly. So better add tickets or write a mail
[11:55:35] <_diver> This project is still open.
[11:55:37] <MrFawlty> https://www.bitwiseworks.com/shop/index.php?controller=contact
[11:55:47] <_diver> We hope to resume soon as well
[11:56:29] <roderick> But you guys need a more constant stream of money to make that happen...
[11:57:00] <roderick> Everytime somebody downloads a product of BWW they should consider there donations are badly needed. You get it for free from the internet...
[11:57:43] <HerwigB> Yes, we have to pay bills constantly, too.
[11:58:26] <MrFawlty> understandable
[11:58:50] <MrFawlty> maybe we should get reminders in a popup when using current products that it was brought by ;-)
[11:58:55] <HerwigB> The lack of more or less constant funding might bring down a project very fast, while resuming it costs additional time and money.
[11:59:11] <MrFawlty> sure
[11:59:36] <HerwigB> Yeah. We might add tons of nag screens to our software.
[11:59:45] <MrFawlty> rofl
[11:59:46] <HerwigB> THAT WAS A JOKE.
[12:00:02] <MrFawlty> Press Yes to continue, with a moving button...
[12:00:33] <Szarik> Can you give a picture what was done last month and how it relates to operational costs?
[12:01:50] <_diver> You mean like developer costs, infrastructure cost and such
[12:01:51] <HerwigB> During the last month, work on Firefox was done.
[12:02:57] <MrFawlty> BWW progress is mentioned on a high level at http://blog.netlabs.org as well, on a weekly basis
[12:03:09] <_diver> And a lot new perl rpm to update nasm. As nasm now needs perl font stuff to create documentation.
[12:03:16] <martini> It can be interesting if bww can set up a Patreon page to try to get more constant stream of money if the community wants to help. But it is important to have some "fund goals" for the community to have more information. 
[12:04:13] <_diver> @Martini is this similar to kickstarter
[12:04:14] <HerwigB> https://github.com/bitwiseworks
[12:05:06] <HerwigB> and http://trac.netlabs.org/rpm/timeline are the places to see us working.
[12:06:15] <roderick> Its something you see frequently on youtube channels of people who makes  video's.
[12:06:22] <Szarik> Thanks for pointers
[12:06:24] <roderick> You can make monthly donations to them.
[12:07:12] <MrFawlty> I came across this article: http://trac.netlabs.org/rpm/wiki/RpmHowToPackagers
[12:07:26] <MrFawlty> but I understand it is not complete and might need some work
[12:07:35] <martini> Patreon has its different with Kickstarter, it is more for monthly payment stream. But is is also imporntant to check the terms and conditions of it.
[12:07:48] <MrFawlty> is anybody able to help out on that? Which would make it easier to get RPM flying?
[12:08:43] <MrFawlty> My programming times are way to long ago... :-(
[12:08:49] <HerwigB> Well, what would be needed?
[12:08:55] <martini> MrFawlty. I also made some article about RPM packaging on the EDM/2. I really hope to get more samples in the future.  http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Creating_your_first_RPM_Package_on_ArcaOS
[12:09:24] <MrFawlty> Martini: thx! Nice to see
[12:10:03] <_diver> Martini you need to use our buildbot. This makes a lot steps a lot easier
[12:10:27] <martini> About RPM: For the moment I need more samples of WPS object creations. I also need information and samples on where to locate files on the FHS structure. 
[12:10:41] <_diver> This bot doesn't add any bww requirements or such
[12:10:59] <martini> Let me know more about buildbot and and point me to some documentation to check it out. 
[12:11:22] <roderick> Szarik out of interest may I ask your background is with OS/2 ? Just curious, since you seem to know more about this ?
[12:11:26] <_diver> Wps objects? Our bww resources package makes that really easy ๐Ÿ˜‚
[12:12:11] <MrFawlty> wow, good information sharing appearing
[12:12:41] <_diver> The bot is on our github. In rpmbuild-bot repo
[12:12:42] <MrFawlty> Roderick: thanks for these IRC sessions!
[12:13:06] <roderick> I still need to work on Warpstock Europe this weekend...
[12:13:08] <roderick> ...
[12:13:18] <roderick> Way behind on schedule...
[12:13:19] <Szarik> We used OS2 on our workstations until 20 years ago doing development mostly in RPG and HLASM.
[12:13:23] <_diver> And the bww resources package has a good explanation of the macros within the macro itself
[12:13:31] <martini> On the WPS Objects with RPM I used the wps_object macro that you provided. But I need more samples on how to set more of the objects parameters. 
[12:13:39] <martini> I need more of this samples: http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Wps-object_Samples
[12:14:08] <_diver> We don't use them direct anymore
[12:14:30] <martini> ok. I see. So I need to know more about the new stuff :)
[12:14:37] <_diver> Look at our bww resources macros. A lot document there
[12:14:52] <MrFawlty> learning is by doing and making mistakes ;-) That will never change...
[12:15:13] <_diver> @szarik RPG is nice ๐Ÿ˜‚
[12:15:42] <Szarik> Now I have only some machines left for maintenance programming tasks
[12:16:57] <_diver> I still do RPG.  Even I use the rpgle
[12:17:17] <_diver> In my other job. Not on os2
[12:17:29] <MrFawlty> :-)
[12:17:44] <MrFawlty> any other topics?
[12:20:14] <_diver> I hope we could answer everything and ppl got a insight what we do and what we need
[12:20:31] -*- MrFawlty did
[12:20:38] <Thomas__> What means ppl?
[12:20:45] <roderick> people
[12:21:12] <CrazyBonz> need to buy vowels
[12:21:25] <MrFawlty> lol
[12:21:51] <MrFawlty> ok, thanks folks. I go for food ;-) CU next time!
[12:21:56] <Gord> Can someone remind me where the IRC log for the FIRST Arca Noae Speakup can be found?  Someone said they were going to put it up on line.
[12:22:10] <roderick> I still need to work on that...
[12:22:14] <HerwigB> To get you an idea of what we also address is the use of more than 4 GB with GCC apps
[12:22:17] <roderick> They are in mailbox...
[12:22:20] <CrazyBonz> I never did get rpm/yum working
[12:22:35] <-> MrFawlty is now known as BasilAW
[12:22:53] <_diver> Ken what did you wrong?
[12:23:12] <Gord> Roderick, I am working on getting the second AN Speakup on line.  Can't find the first one.
[12:23:21] <roderick> What do you mean Herwig ?
[12:23:33] <_diver> About logs. I saw some links at os2world from eugene iirc
[12:24:20] <CrazyBonz> _diver, unknown, just gives me 2 screens full of errors and staements
[12:24:48] <StevenL> Did you submit a ticket?
[12:24:54] <CrazyBonz> from after installing the yum bootstrap package
[12:25:22] <HerwigB> Dmitry has a concept to change the loader in order to provide an API for memory allocation over 4 GB.
[12:25:37] <HerwigB> for applications.
[12:25:48] <Thomas__> You can very simplify rpm/yum by using anpm.
[12:25:50] <CrazyBonz> i dont want to clutter this session with troubleshooting tho
[12:26:26] <roderick> Kind of an Expand Memory like in DOS, but not with the pain of setting it up...
[12:26:36] <_diver> Any more questions?
[12:26:42] <HerwigB> exactly.
[12:27:35] <roderick> I guess nobody has any questions. I guess the question from BWW back is please keep providing sponsorship either directly to BWW or  via VOICE to continue funding.
[12:28:27] <Thomas__> Thank you very much for this information exchange.
[12:28:52] <roderick> And please note www.warpstock.eu.
[12:29:05] <roderick> Warpstock Europe will be held on the 26 and 27th of May in Berlin this year.
[12:29:24] <roderick> Access this year is slightly more expensive. But it includes lunch and unlimited tea and coffee.
[12:29:39] <roderick> I still need to work on the webpage.
[12:29:44] <HerwigB> unlimited coffee sound great :-)
[12:29:51] <roderick> Thanks Herwig and Silvan for dropping in.
[12:30:03] <roderick> Are there any questions from the people visiting ?
[12:30:12] <roderick> Going once
[12:30:35] <roderick> Going twice
[12:30:38] <roderick> closed
[12:30:44] <Szarik> Is it true that you can drink beer on the street in Berlin?
[12:30:56] <roderick> Sorry Blonde you just came in to late.
[12:31:01] <roderick> The speakup just ended.
[12:31:17] <roderick> But we will publish the logs on www.os2voice.org.
[12:31:43] <Blonde> Well, it wasn't meant for my time zone. I hope there is a record for the web site
[12:32:30] <Gord> Blonde, the second Araca Noae speakup and this Speakup should be on the website in a day or so.
[12:32:44] <OS4user> I don't have a question, I just want to say big thanks for BWW for their invaluable work on Firefox and other stuff
[12:32:53] <CrazyBonz> thank you for coming to this speakup all bww guys
[12:34:42] <HerwigB> thankk you all and see you next time! bye!
[12:34:49] <TerryW> Thanks and goodby.
[12:36:07] <martini> thanks
[12:37:44] <micrex22> darn, I missed the chat
[12:40:09] <_diver> Cu all
[12:40:49] <StevenL> Bye all
[12:54:09] <Alfredo> The BBW speakup is over, isn't it?
[12:54:19] <Gord> yes
[12:55:25] <Alfredo> Thank you, I was hoping I got the starting time wrong :(
[12:55:56] <Alfredo> 7pm instead of 17
[12:56:18] <Gord> I'm hoping to get the log posted to the VOICE website in a few hours.
[12:56:55] <Alfredo> Good, thank you!
[13:01:57] <micrex22> gord I could also up it on ibmfiles if you want
[13:08:57] <Alfredo> Bye everyone