Author Topic: XWP Dutch Translation  (Read 1054 times)

Rich Walsh

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XWP Dutch Translation
« on: June 16, 2019, 10:12:18 pm »
I'm (slowly) preparing for a new release of XWP and trying to get the various NLS versions updated. Unfortunately, I no longer have a Dutch translator, so I'd like to ask the Dutch speakers in this forum for some help.

I wrote a REXX script to compare the English and Dutch versions of the main language file and found that there were far more untranslated phrases in Dutch than any other language. I don't know if the translation work was never done, or if Dutch computer users have simply adopted more English phrases than other languages. I was able to get my list down to 92 items and have attached it to this posting.

What I'd like are translations that reflect contemporary Dutch computer usage. I'm definitely not looking for "linguistic purity" - if an "OK" button in English is labelled "OK" in Dutch, that's fine. When you're done, please attach the translated file to a post in this thread (please don't put its contents in the body of your posting). Also, feel free to review the work of other translators and suggest alternate translations if appropriate.

Thanks for your help.

BTW... I may have to ask for your help again after I review other language-specific files - I just haven't gotten that far yet and 92 phrases is more than enough for now :)

André Heldoorn

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 12:59:37 am »
I'll look at it at least once later, without a Dutch "egg send", but that certainly shouldn't stop others. I may not be using XWP (eWP NL). I'll try to use a Dutch translation first, next the preferred "IBM Dutch", and finally Dutch. Including borrowed English words. Presumably there are no length restrictions.

"IBM Dutch" uses the original IBM translation, if easily available and if possible. E.g. "vaste schijf" (fixed disk), according to HELP FORMAT, instead of "station", "harde schijf" or "harddisk".

There are more (closed source) WPS extensions, FWIW. I tend to not use untranslated ones which would require a translation, to not mix too many languages. Albeit in the Netherlands the percentage of people speaking English as a second or third language does outperfom the rest of the EU, with almost 100%.

AFAIK there is an active Dutch translation group, so hopefully we haven't lost all of 'em.

André Heldoorn

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 02:11:44 am »
Code: [Select]
    ID_MMSI_ALIAS                       "Alias"
    ID_XSDI_DETAILS_DIALOG              "Object details"

    ID_CRSI_PWGT_GRAPHPEGGED            "any CPU @ 100%"


    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_2                      "in kBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_3                      "in KBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_4                      "in mBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_5                      "in MBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_6                      "in bytes/kBytes/mBytes/gBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_7                      "in bytes/KBytes/MBytes/GBytes"

The context isn't always clear with sample sentences. "Alias" may be one of the words which doesn't have to be translated at all, but I'm not sure how it's used in English. Then it's hard to tell, for example, if "objectdetails" (details of the object) is right and wanted. "any CPU @ 100%" is unclear, even if we ignore that AT is English.

The "xBytes" and "XBytes" are probably outdated since 2008 in all languages (IEEE 1541-2002).

I can attach a quick & dirty translation, but of the things I may be missing is an "user's load", if my eCS 1.x single CPU monitor is anything to go by. Wrongly translated (in Dutch no space here) as "gebruikers belasting". I guess it's better that an user of e.g. xwp-1-0-12-full-nl.exe, Joop may be a candidate, translates it. Quick & dirty, only use this if you've got nothing else:

Code: [Select]
    ID_XSSI_SBTEXTWPOBJECT          "$t (Klasse: $W)"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_CTRL                "Ctrl+"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_Alt                 "Alt+"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_SHIFT               "Shift+"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_BACKSPACE           "Backspace"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_TAB                 "Tab"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_BACKTABTAB          "Backtab"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_ENTER               "Enter"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_ESC                 "Esc"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_END                 "End"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_HOME                "Home"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_PRINTSCRN           "Printscrn"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_INSERT              "Insert"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_DELETE              "Delete"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_SCRLLOCK            "ScrlLock"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_NUMLOCK             "NumLock"
    ID_XSSI_KEY_WINMENU             "Win menu"
    ID_XSSI_DETAILSPAGE             "~Details"
    ID_XSSI_SV_TYPE                 "Type"
    ID_XSSI_SV_CLASS                "Objectklasse"
    ID_XSSI_WPSCLASSES                  "WPS klassen"
    ID_XFSI_DETAILSCOMPACT              "~Compact"
    ID_XSSI_CLSLIST_CLASS               "Klasse"
    ID_XSSI_SYSLEVELPAGE                "Syslevels"
    ID_MMSI_DEVICETYPE                  "Type"
    ID_MMSI_DEVICEINDEX                 "Index"
    ID_MMSI_TYPE_VIDEO                  "Video"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_VIDEOTAPE           "Videotape"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_VIDEODISC           "Videodisc"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_AUDIO_TAPE          "Audiotape"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_WAVEFORM_AUDIO      "Wave audio"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_SEQUENCER           "Sequencer"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_AUDIO_AMPMIX        "Ampmix"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_MONITOR             "Monitor"
    ID_MMSI_DEVTYPE_FILTER              "Filter"
    ID_MMSI_COLMN_FOURCC                "FourCC"
    ID_MMSI_COLMN_IOPROC_TYPE           "IOProc type"
    ID_MMSI_COLMN_MEDIA_TYPE            "Mediatype"
    ID_MMSI_COLMN_EXTENSION             "Ext."
    ID_XSSI_COLMN_SYSL_COMPONENT        "Component"
    ID_XSSI_COLMN_SYSL_LEVEL            "Syslevel"
    ID_XSSI_XCENTERPAGE1                "~Modules"
    ID_XSSI_BYTE                        " byte"
    ID_XSSI_BYTES                       " bytes"
    ID_XSSI_WIDGETCLASS                 "Widgetklasse"
    ID_XSSI_VOLUMEVIEW                  "~Volume"
    ID_XSSI_VOLUME                      "Volume"
    ID_XSSI_CLSLISTTOKEN                "Token"
    ID_XSSI_PARAMETERS                  "Parameter"
    ID_XSSI_THREADSTHREAD               "Thread"
    ID_XSSI_THREADSGROUPTITLE           "&xwp; threads"
    ID_XSSI_COLMN_EXPORTTYPE            "Type"
    ID_XSSI_COLMN_RESOURCETYPE          "Type"
    ID_XSSI_MB3_AUTOSCROLL              "AutoScroll"
    ID_MMSI_ALIAS                       "Alias"
    ID_MMSI_PARAMS                      "Parameters"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_CPUXUSERCOLOR          "CPU %d"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_TOOLTIP1               "CPU aantal: %d&nl;Gemiddelde belasting: % 2lu%c%lu%c&nl;IRQ belasting: % 2lu%c%lu%c"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_TOOLTIP2               "&nl;CPU %d belasting: % 2lu%c%lu%c"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_GRAPHTYPE              "Grafiektype"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_GRAPHPERCPU            "Belasting per CPU"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_GRAPHAVERAGE           "Gemiddelde belasting"
    ID_CRSI_PWGT_GRAPHPEGGED            "elke CPU @ 100%"
    ID_XFSI_FDLG_TYPES                  "Types:"
    ID_XFSI_FDLG_DIRECTORY              "Directory:"
    ID_XSSI_DOUBLEFILES_DIR             "Directory"
    ID_CRSI_WINLIST_FILTER              "~Filter ""%s"""
    ID_CRMI_HELP_XCENTER                "&xcenter; help"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_1                      "in bytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_2                      "in kBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_3                      "in KBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_4                      "in mBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_5                      "in MBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_6                      "in bytes/kBytes/mBytes/gBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_7                      "in bytes/KBytes/MBytes/GBytes"
    ID_XSSI_SBMNC_310                    "Objecttype (.TYPE EA)"
    DID_OK                              "~OK"
    DID_ENTER                           "~Enter"
    ID_XSDI_FDRVIEW_DETAILS             "Detail~s"
    ID_XSDI_DETAILS_DIALOG              "Objectdetails"
    ID_XSDI_MENU_MENUSTRING             """%s"" submenu"
    ID_SCDI_STICKY_INCLUDE              "I"
    ID_SCDI_STICKY_EXCLUDE              "E"
    ID_SCDI_STICKY_CRITERIA             "Criteria"
    ID_SCDI_STICKY_OPERATOR             "Operator"
    ID_SCDI_STICKY_CRITERIAGROUP        "Criteria"
    ID_SCDI_PGR1_HOTKEYS_CTRL           "Ct~rl"
    ID_SCDI_PGR1_HOTKEYS_SHIFT          "~Shift"
    ID_SCDI_PGR1_HOTKEYS_ALT            "A~lt"
    ID_XSDI_FT_FILTERS_TXT              "Filters"
    ID_XFDI_PASTE_CLASS_TXT             "Objectk~lasse:"
    ID_XSDI_HOTKEY_PARAM                "Parameter"

Rich Walsh

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 05:41:12 pm »
André, thanks for your help! It looks like a lot of the items on my list didn't need to be translated after all, and the ones you did were the phrases I was most interested in. I recognize that translation can be difficult when you don't have a clear understanding of the context but in some cases that is impossible to provide. In particular, "any CPU @ 100%" is for a new feature no one has ever seen: an alternate graph for the Pulse CPU meter intended for multi-core systems.

BTW... if you are still running eWP, you should try XWP-Lite. Basically, it's the same as eWP but with a couple of useful features added back in and a HUGE number of bug fixes. And of course, it's available in Dutch:
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/download/pub/os2/apps/wps/xworkplace/xwp-1-0-12-lite-nl.exe

André Heldoorn

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 10:55:14 am »
It looks like a lot of the items on my list didn't need to be translated after all, and the ones you did were the phrases I was most interested in.

BTW... if you are still running eWP, you should try XWP-Lite
If needed, you can replace"Gemiddelde" by the shorter "Gem." (same as "Avg."). Mainly spaces and the word "class". I can imagine an earlier version even didn't translate the word class(es) ("klasse(n)", an unusual translation). The translations are correct, including unchanged words. I could verify a few. "Any @ CPU" could be (any) alle (all) or elke/iedere (context: you can press any key).

I'm not using XWP yet, because I still have to re-install an eCS system one day and verify if an upgrade (full or light) is seamless indeed, possibly including the eButton artwork. No natural re-installs yet, which is the good news.

Joop

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2019, 02:36:40 pm »
I do know that my version 1.0.8 did go deep into the system, had a lot of trouble after installation. Don't want that again. So how easy is it to install? I don't have the lite version installed as far as I know, so long ago.
About translations, I have also help pages, suppose they have to be translated too for the new stuff.
André is right, you can't translate from a word list, the context is important, Dutch is far more richer than English and we do say a few things in a different way than Google translate :-). Translating is not easy and takes a lot of time and effort and patience. Most of the times I translate and put it in the program to find out how it looks and if words are not truncated due to not enough room in the code. And sometimes its a hell too find out where translations do pop up in the program.

Joop

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2019, 08:03:24 pm »
In the case of XWP, it's rather simple: You need a VAC 3.08 environment. Probably it was extended to support also VAC 3.51. Then get the correct files with SVN and try to compile.

In this project, It's easy to find the files that need to be replaced or translated. The difficulty is the huge amount of items. In other projects, it's often far more unclear which parts of which files need to be translated.

With that method, you can see the contexts of the translated texts. The original eng version contains a few comments to make it easier to guess.

Rich Walsh

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2019, 11:30:27 pm »
I do know that my version 1.0.8 did go deep into the system, had a lot of trouble after installation. Don't want that again. So how easy is it to install?

Since v1.0.8 was released on June 7, 2008, there have been 311 updates to XWP. Roughly 230 of those were bug fixes or enhancements. IMHO, XWP v1.0.12 is vastly more stable and somewhat more functional than 1.0.8.

This is particularly true if you use the Lite version. It was created to let eWP users enjoy these improvements without having to deal with the buggy, badly designed features that Mensys was wise to leave out of eWP. Since they probably removed too much, XWP-Lite restores a few stable features that users have asked for such as XWPStartup folders.

Installation is simple: download the file, double-click on it, let WarpIn install it and restart the Desktop. Unlike 10 years ago, you only need to d/l one file - your NLS version contains everything you need. If you are upgrading from eWP you're done. If you currently have the "full" version, be aware that you will have a few dead icons for stuff that isn't included such as the XWP Setup folder. You can either delete them yourself or you can run Checkini to do the cleanup for you.

André Heldoorn

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2019, 09:11:36 pm »
Thanks, I'll try the Lite version during a next full install of the OS. I already got it, and then it's easier to downgrade to eCS, if that's the outcome of a review. eCenter of eCS 1.2 is quite old.

I wasn't sure about translating "classe(s)", but e.g. "objectklasse" (object class) returns a few OS/2-related hits. So that's a known "IBM translation" in an OO OS/2 context.

With that method, you can see the contexts of the translated texts. The original eng version contains a few comments to make it easier to guess.

Please note that the English source data in this thread will be far batter than anything I can produce within 10 minutes, without any structure, and ISTR there was some (Russian?) translation tool, but in an ideal world "mum" should be able to translate text. If possible quickly, without having to have (basic) programming tools, and with context and possible length restrictions. And with a dictionary, for example to find out in which context "CPU" shouldn't be translated ("CPU", or "processor", or "CVE", or ...). And with a tool to find or share (parts of) translations. In one of the ideal worlds; YMMV.

In this case it did help that the number of translations was limited and quite clear. Then context mainly promotes qualify, for one because the translator has to assume less and can sometimes select an even better word.

André Heldoorn

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2019, 12:49:24 am »
With that method, you can see the contexts of the translated texts. The original eng version contains a few comments to make it easier to guess.
BTW, I've never received any translation requests w.r.t. bugs produced by me. Presumably because all OS/2 users left, reading this, do understand English. Even if my INFO-ZIP.IFS, without documentation, would display nothing but "Hello, world (under construction)!".

One could expect such a request (and input) by an user of Tastaturaufkleber or one of the other OS/2 or the few eCS languages, but so far that never happened. OTOH I've never tried to contacted known translators myself, so perhaps translators may blame authors too.

FWIW...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 12:53:25 am by André Heldoorn »

André Heldoorn

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2019, 10:57:05 am »
Then context mainly promotes qualify, for one because the translator has to assume less and can sometimes select an even better word.
Oh, and it can restrict the translator intentionally.

Yes (of a Yes-button). Unrestricted context of the word: Yes, as used in "Yes, I love you!".

Details, Icon, Tree, Settings & Folder. Restricted context of the words: 4 times IBM's names of views of OS/2 folders, and IBM's default original OS/2 name of a dropped WPFolder template or IBM's word for a folder.

Toch (button of a Dutch app). Restricted context: Toch wel (NL), Doch (DE): yes, after a negative question like "Surely you don't want to format this drive?".

Perhaps simple translation requests deserve an own thread, optionally per source language. So the 3 words of an English WPS extension can be translated to e.g. German for an installed eCS 2.x DE, without someone always having to translate a full manual as well. Manual in English, OS UI in German (or all other relevant OS languages, including OS/2's and eCS 1.x's languages).

Doug Bissett

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2019, 04:57:34 pm »
Many years ago, somebody suggested that the "proper" way to do translations, is to have one person do a translation. Then, have another person translate it back to the original language. Anything that doesn't match, should then be investigated to see where the difference came from, and appropriate changes need to be made. Even better, is to have more than one team working on the same translation, so the best one can be selected at the end ("one" being individual phrases, or words).

You probably don't have the manpower to do it that way, so you do what you can.

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2019, 05:36:12 pm »
Hi

I had seen the Ubuntu translation launchpad, and I found it to be an interesting  tool and methodology to try to translate a software. But I'm possible dreaming in technicolor since it may require resources that the community do not have.

My non experienced guess on a translation effort will be to first do a textual translation of the text and phrases. After that check the translation made against to the application to make a contextual validation to see if it makes sense.

My issue trying to help on the Spanish translation of ArcaOS is that I never used OS/2 Warp in Spanish, so I was stuck trying to translate some of the component names of the OS in Spanish. Also my translation sometimes did not fit the language tense of the rest of the already translated content.

In conclusion, I would never underestimate the efforts  of translating a software anymore :)
Martin Iturbide
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Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2019, 06:48:38 pm »
Then, have another person translate it back to the original language.
Even though it sounds good, I take that as nonsence. You can't translate something without changing its meaning. Even similar words have different meanings in different languages. You need the context and should be able to test your translation. Additionally to the semantics, you have the problem that the translated text must fit in the dialog controls, like in the case in this thread.

More items from me: For a good translation, you always need a team. That isn't always possible. You need at least experience to chose the correct terms to meet the CUA. I've seen it often that terms of other OSs were used.

Some German examples: 'Button' should be translated to 'Knopf' and not to 'Schaltfläche'. 'Options' should be translated to 'Optionen' and not to 'Extras'. 'Cancel' is translated to 'Abbruch' and not to 'Abbrechen'. These are single terms. For longer texts it gets more difficult.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:11:21 pm by Andreas Schnellbacher »

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: XWP Dutch Translation
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 10:32:46 pm »
My issue trying to help on the Spanish translation of ArcaOS is that I never used OS/2 Warp in Spanish, so I was stuck trying to translate some of the component names of the OS in Spanish.
That's indeed an issue. For my work during the longer phase from eCS 1.2r to 2.0/2.1 for the German version, I had always examples with an extremely high quality for comparison from Christian Hennecke: XWP and parts of eCS 1.2r.

That had saved me from installing a German W4.x version for that purpose.

It would be helpful to get the word lists for the Spanish language and the CUA. If you don't have them, I would address Jacques van Leeuwen or Jan van der Heide. They were quite active in trying to attract more translators since about 15 years ago.