Author Topic: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?  (Read 21071 times)

Lars

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 60
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« on: January 05, 2014, 02:32:06 pm »
I don't doubt that the developers are skilled people. However I doubt that this project will be of any relevance if it continues in the current way. I just want to state my opinions here and I won't go into the "legal/illegal" issue.
I am open to any comment, good or bad:

1) I would have never found the website. Fortunately, one of Martin's comments pointed to it. The project needs more promotion. A good way would be to be present in the most frequented OS/2 newsgroups

2) from the website, it's completely unobvious of what the latest version is for the OS4 core project. I'd go with the SVN revision numbers but I could never be sure. It's also not clear what version was reasonably stable and what version was not. I would also think it would be a good idea to remove all versions that proved to be too unstable for most testers.

3) it's completely unobvious in how far the QSINIT project relates to the OS4 project. Does QSINIT "overwrite" the OS2LDR contained in the OS/4 zips ? What would be the benefit to use QSINIT in favor of the OS2LDR that comes with the OS/4 kernel zip ? Is that the same group of developers of these 2 projects ?

4) there is no FAQ that would collect common problems or such. Also there is about no documentation. All the information is contained in the few postings floating around on the os2world website. Who is going to bother and go through the effort to test the OS/4 kernel if he is more or less completely on his own ? Not too many people I would think ...

5) there is too little feedback back into the developer community. One of the topics has already been addressed: David as the ACPI developer should be taken into the loop. Me might not be inclined to support the OS4 kernel but I'd say it's the OS/4 people's job to get in touch with him. At least that would make sense ...

6) all of the website is in cyrillic (russian, anyway). I know it might be not that easy but at least a bit of english would be helpful (we are not talking about perfect english here). It's just a major hinderance in attracting anybody to try and test and support development of the OS/4 kernel.

For me, 2) and 3) and 4) are the most pressing problems. And they surely have no relation to the "legal" / "illegal" question.


Ok, let the shitstrom begin ...


Lars

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 488
  • -Receive: 97
  • Posts: 2696
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2014, 03:31:39 pm »
Hi Lars

I also agreed with some of your points.

About 5) I noticed the OS/4 team chats on IRC irc://efnet/os2russian. But the conversation is generally in Russian language, but if you jump there in English you will get a conversation.

There is also some political things about this project to add up. They do not have a good relation with Mensys. (maybe it is from both sides). So, it does not seems that they want to do something together. I really hope this can change on the future, but for the moment I don't think that nobody getting paid by Mensys will like to join OS/4 project.

Also, some OS/4 members thinks that open source is "evil capitalism". I chatted with some members of OS/4 once and they have a "resentment" that Mensys is taking advantage of open source software to make "MILLIONS". First I doubt that Mensys is making millions with eComStation (as net profit). Also it seems that they have a miss interpretation of what open source is. Open Source can used for good or evil.
- When Mensys pays for patching XWorkplace and they are forced to release the source code (GNU GPL license), that is good.
- When eCoSoft grabs a BSD licensed software and turn it into a closed source product, it is legal, but its bad for open source and software continuity.
- When Mensys ports the AHCI drivers is good, when they hide the binaries to the public is bad, they are forced to release the source code (GPL) thats good, when other person grabs the same source code and release the binaries is good... and everything is legal. (this is why it is stupid to hide the binaries of an open source project)

So, at the end open source is making us more good than bad. This is why I think that Mensys is doing good for the platform in general terms and I don't care if they are making millions (which I'm almost sure they are not) as soon as they support more open source projects.

In short I think that the problem with OS/4 is not only legal, it is also political.

My main suggestion is "Stop worrying about Mensys, and open source everything (preferable copyleft)".
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 488
  • -Receive: 97
  • Posts: 2696
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2014, 03:35:20 pm »
...and by the way, if OS/4 decides to walk the open source path. I'm willing to help on whatever I can.
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

walking_x

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 3
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2014, 04:43:15 pm »
Ok. QSINIT loader is not OS/4 nor uses any piece of OS/4 or IBM code.
I write it at free time, just for fun ;) So, no chances to HUGE DOCS and FAQ ;)

But it works (surprise!).

QSINIT share some functionality with OS/4: OS2LDR.INI file format (kernel menu and options).
This is because I WAS in OS/4 team and wrote the same part of OS/4 OS2LDR. And because compatibility is a good idea.

About "legal" / "illegal" question.
QSINIT code has written from scratch... Even LE/LX module loader... some free code was used (listed in docs), but this is all. Since I'm very familiar with process of kernel loading (a slightly difficult process ;)) - I just rewrote it.

Ok - Microsoft still owns FAT, LE and some things like that and this is only one (and hypothetic) problem ;)

Sigurd Fastenrath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 16
  • -Receive: 72
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2014, 05:28:21 pm »
- When eCoSoft grabs a BSD licensed software and turn it into a closed source product, it is legal, but its bad for open source and software continuity.

That is exactly the reason why I still try to avoid all that ecosoft stuff - with a lot of projects those try to make money from things others have invented or developed. And in addition I had a lot of crashes due to this parts. One of the examples: USb widget (working better now, but still better to be replaced), another example: the fails with eCs 2.2 beta 1 with "Big icons" and the other ecosoft stuff for the WPS (remember Drive letters?). For a stable WPS it is better to disable the NeoWPS parts. It was one of the major enhancements of beta 2 compared to beta 1 to disable the newly introduced neowps features again.

I will give a video example once my maximum warp pc is ready. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 05:32:05 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 488
  • -Receive: 97
  • Posts: 2696
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 05:38:40 pm »
Hi walking_x

If you want to start a page about QSINIT Loader on the OS2World Wiki in english, and we can try to collaborate on it.
http://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/QSINIT

What do you think? You can use the same user and password of this forum for the Wiki.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Dave Yeo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 178
  • Posts: 2475
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 07:15:20 pm »
Ok - Microsoft still owns FAT, LE and some things like that and this is only one (and hypothetic) problem ;)

I always assumed that our OS/2 license includes rights to use FAT, LE and such.

Doug Bissett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 56
  • Posts: 1326
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 07:33:35 pm »
I will make four comments here. They are my own views:

1) walking_x has stated that his work is original, or acknowledged, where appropriate (I have to believe him). It is HIS work, so he can do as he likes with it. I would like to see it go open source, but that is his choice. I would, however, ask him to take steps to make sure that the source is made available to the OS/2 (eCS) community, if he decides to quit work on it, or if something unforeseen happens, and he cannot continue. We can't afford to lose such important work.

2) It has been my experience, that eCoSoft is producing software, for profit. Most of what has been made available, for free, was paid for by Mensys. It does not make sense for a "for profit" company to open source their work. I won't comment on the quality of their work.   :(   The market will do that.

3) OS/4 is a "problem". I don't know the details, but I have heard that the OS/4 kernel is a (illegally) disassembled OS2 kernel, from IBM, rearranged in some way to make it easier to modify (which hasn't happened yet, AFAIK, and please correct me if I am wrong). I have looked at it a few times, and found no benefit to using it. Now, it seems that they have added a version of ACPI. Whether that is original work, or not, I don't know (I doubt it). The OS/4 loader part is probably necessary to be able to load the kernel, and it seems that walking_x is probably the original author of it.

4) I note that the Russian approach (generally, not always) seems to be to produce products of mediocre quality, and they don't always respect other people's rights (copyrights). That may be part of the reason why they don't want to get involved with GPL, or other open source licensing. It is probably a result of their history, and the fact that their government doesn't do much to protect individual, or corporate, rights. I have noted a few comments about "large capitalist entities taking their work, for their own benefit". There seems to be no concern about taking something from those same entities, or individuals. I think the Russians need a change in government, and they need to look in the mirror to find the source of their problems. An attitude shift is definitely required, for them to get along with most of the rest of the world.

Eugene Gorbunoff

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 3
  • -Receive: 7
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 08:24:49 pm »

1) Please don't mention eCo Software when discussing the pirates.

2) To Martin: eCo Software provides all kinds of code: closed source, open source, ..
All our software is clean, we respect the rights of other developers. Our components are verified and distributed with eCS all over the world.

3) eCo Software doesn't deliver products to Sigurd Fastenrath, he can't discuss our products because can't test them.

4) To Doug: Please don't generalize "russians". Our people respect other people's rights, buy licenses.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:31:21 pm by Eugene Gorbunoff »

Sigurd Fastenrath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 16
  • -Receive: 72
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 08:53:48 pm »
3) eCo Software doesn't deliver products to Sigurd Fastenrath, he can't discuss our products because can't test them.

That is exactly true. And in addition it is the other way round:

eCosoft takes my work and ideas to earn money, i.e.: http://de.ecomstation.ru/showarticle.php?id=214

You can find and proof the "business" of this company and how legal rights are kicked with feet here:

http://de.ecomstation.ru/help/?action=faq

Just read Answer to Question 3 - a typical violation of everything that is accepted as legal by other persons/companies.
Classical rights form the medieval age - lacking every advice from a lawyer or at least someone who knows something about rights and justice.

But, no need to care about, I guess, as the economical steam is running out there, I think one of the reasons may be the quality of the products, speaking for it self..... :o

And yes - the Maximum Warp PC will not contain even one application developed by ecosoft, it will be a nice OS/2 Version and be shown in a longer movie, later this year, hopefully  ::) It will be a movie "Celebrating 20 Years of OS/2 Warp".
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 09:00:25 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 488
  • -Receive: 97
  • Posts: 2696
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2014, 12:27:57 am »
Hi Sigurd .

Can I have your permission to repost your article on the OS2World.com/wiki? We use the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license. If you can agreed to that kind of license, or want to post something else on the OS2World.com wiki please let me know.

Regards
Martín.
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

walking_x

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 3
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2014, 07:08:44 am »
2) It has been my experience, that eCoSoft is producing software, for profit. Most of what has been made available, for free, was paid for by Mensys.
Of cause, I will open sources when become tired of it ;) But now don't like the idea to open all, under free license. The reason you wrote here.

Ok, Mensys wants to live - this is normal. But, in fact - they will take this code and will make of it another one "subscription package". So, I will give them a gift - something for sale, nothing else. And Gorbunov will start telling all - what exactly eCS team made it, after long days and nights of heavy researching ;)

I don't like this, at least, while I still writing this code.

If you want to start a page about QSINIT Loader on the OS2World Wiki in english, and we can try to collaborate on it.
Yes, some kind of FAQ can be created here from time to time ;)
May be, I need to update doc in package too....

But now it still "under development", and doc always lag behind of code changes.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 07:12:12 am by walking_x »

Sigurd Fastenrath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 16
  • -Receive: 72
  • Posts: 444
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2014, 07:28:24 am »
Hi Sigurd .

Can I have your permission to repost your article on the OS2World.com/wiki? We use the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license. If you can agreed to that kind of license, or want to post something else on the OS2World.com wiki please let me know.

Regards
Martín.

Yes, for sure Martin. It is a pleasure for me. Please keep in mind that it is about two years old and some things did change i.e. the Airboot Manager.

Best regards,

Sigurd
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 07:40:24 am by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Andi B.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 22
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2014, 11:33:27 am »
Quote
...the Russians....An attitude shift is definitely required, for them to get along with most of the rest of the world.
May I add that your definition of 'rest of the world' seems to me being a rather small fraction of the real world. Unfortunately. ;)


Lars

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 60
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: OS/4 ? QSINIT ?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2014, 01:10:18 pm »
Another point for my original 5):

somewhere in one of these discussion groups here I read that there is some bug in Veit Kannegieser's PCIBUS.SNP that causes problems with the OS/4 kernel. Why was Veit not contacted ? I have contacted him in the past and while he is obviously pretty busy with his "real life" job he is certainly going to help where he can. While the OS/4 team doesn't like the idea of "closed source" they tend towards the very same behaviour:
1) do it all yourself
2) don't talk to anybody else
3) keep everything to yourself, not the binaries but the knowledge
4) don't document anything

I think I am qualified to utter these statements. I have put considerable work in fixing the OS/2 USB stack. And I am doing it for free as I have my own "real life" job. David cannot do it for free. He is doing it for a living.
The OS/2 source code is freely available from the netlabs SVN server. We (David and I) don't hide anything from anybody.
One just need to ask Adrian Gschwend for getting an account.

About the binaries not being freely delivered: who is going to pay David if everything is given away for free ? You DO HAVE the option to build the updated USB drivers yourself (but you need to know how to run a compiler, assembler, linker, make utility).
What Mensys does is keeping the strings together and making sure that all updates and necessary fixes and also new stuff go into a common distribution. That is quite some work and not everybody can do this work for free.


Lars