Author Topic: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?  (Read 17444 times)

Dave Yeo

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2015, 04:20:33 am »
Quote
JFS has been changed from the IBM version to an open source version (also from IBM, I think). It has also been updated so that OS/2 can boot from it.

I just updated JFS, the license is definitely not open source and instead looks like a standard closed source license. If people and/or companies are taking GPL source and closing it to sell then it reflects really badly on the community. I was always under the impression that the updating work was done with the OS/2 branch of JFS rather then the Linux branch.
Unluckily with the GPL, it is an all or nothing thing.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2015, 05:19:40 pm »
Quote
I would remind you, that IBM employs some of the best lawyers on the planet.
That kind of FUD only works for large companies that are pirating large volumes of OS/2 software (which it is not impossible but improbable). This is a community of OS/2 users and not OS/2 corporations. And I'm not implying that abandonware is legal, just that a "OS/2 Distro" can be created the same say that UpdCD did, or is it UpdCD illegal?

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Martin seems to want to clone the WPS, but there is no need to do that, because XWorkplace has already expanded the WPS capabilities, and shown the path to do more (if anybody really wants to tackle it).

The issue with XWorkplace is that it is not a replacement of WPS, it is a extensions of the WPS classes that expands the functionality of WPS child objects. Which means that XWorkplace requires the close source proprietary WPS. That why I agreed and I will support anybody that will like to convert XWorkplace into a WPS replacement by not using the parent WPS classes, but by cloning them.

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QSINIT has already made a new OS2LDR,...

That is a different things QSINIT is a OS2LDR from scratch which is good, even that the source code is public it is not open source. It says it is for "non-commercial use only" which is incompatible with open source. But this is a good project that maybe someday the author will put it under an open source license.

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The main problem today, is availability of knowledgeable programmers.
Only programmers, knowledge can be acquired. I don't like treating "people with knowledge" as superior, I prefer people with good attitude more than "rocks stars programmers".

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It seems that the "dream" is under way, but if you want to kill OS/2, try to do too much with those who can do it.
????? - A software can be killed?, if so OS/2 and all its brand was killed by its owner, IBM.  I don't want to kill it, I want to clone it. The utopian goal is to free it from IBM and from single vendors that comes and goes.

Doug, this is the old discussion "don't fix what it is not broken". I don't agreed with that, the stuff that is working is close source, and it is what is limiting the grow of the platform. Doug, we already discuss it, you need drivers (me too) but you think that the future for the platform is drivers, I just disagree on that. I think that a future for the platform is making it open source.

Regards
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:24:25 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Martin Iturbide

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2015, 06:21:01 pm »
Quote
JFS has been changed from the IBM version to an open source version (also from IBM, I think). It has also been updated so that OS/2 can boot from it.

I just updated JFS, the license is definitely not open source and instead looks like a standard closed source license. If people and/or companies are taking GPL source and closing it to sell then it reflects really badly on the community. I was always under the impression that the updating work was done with the OS/2 branch of JFS rather then the Linux branch.
Unluckily with the GPL, it is an all or nothing thing.

Hi Dave, Which JFS are you modifying? Where did you get the source code?

The one IBM released to the public is GNU GPL, but if you have it from other IBM source that can change. I really want to see if OS/2's JFS can be open sourced. I know that IBM only released the AIX/Linux version as open source, but I never knew if that applies for OS/2.

I know that withe GPL is all or nothing, and sometimes developers have a hard time to integrate it because at the end we just want stuff working. But I always see it that way, if I accept there is close source license software that is being sold and you are forced not to change it, or share the source code and binaries it.... I must  accept its complete license opposite, software that you can share, but forces you the share the source     ....so everybody has it's space :)
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Dave Yeo

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2015, 06:36:52 pm »
It's the latest JFS from Arca Noae, I'm not modifying it, just updating the system. No source that I know of though I believe some is hosted on netlabs.
When IBM rewrote JFS for OS/2 (and eventually AIX) they forked it into a propriety OS/2 and AIX version and a GPL version. I doubt the OS/2 version will ever be open sourced but the GPL version could be ported and someone did start some years back with http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/download/pub/os2/system/drivers/filesys/freejfs_1_1.zip. The 2 forks are somewhat compatible but there are differences.

Doug Bissett

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2015, 07:45:07 pm »
Quote
This is a community of OS/2 users and not OS/2 corporations.

I don't know about where you live, but here, the law applies equally to individuals and large corporations. The only thing that saves people from prosecution is that it just isn't worth IBM's time, and expense, to do it.

Quote
just that a "OS/2 Distro" can be created the same say that UpdCD did, or is it UpdCD illegal?

UpdCD is legal, since it is designed to take a legal copy of OS/2, and create an updated CD. That updated CD is NOT legal, without the original legal CD to go along with it.

If you want to make a new OS/2 Distro, you need to do it in three parts. One, you need the "customer" to have a legal copy of OS/2 (available new, only through IBM, and their agents Serenity systems, who have sub contracted Mensys to handle the transactions). I am not even sure that it is legal to transfer the license from one user to another, but that seems to be ignored by IBM (and the users). Two, you need to have all of the updated parts of OS/2, to replace whatever needs to be updated. Three, you need to add whatever is required that has been created independently of what IBM (or Microsoft) did. Of course, all of that needs to be appropriately licensed.

FWIW, I don't see why it couldn't be done, but somebody will need to do a LOT of work. Give it a shot, and see how you make out. Oh yeah, start with consulting a lawyer, to see what you can, and cannot, do.

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The issue with XWorkplace is that it is not a replacement of WPS, it is a extensions of the WPS classes that expands the functionality of WPS child objects. Which means that XWorkplace requires the close source proprietary WPS. That why I agreed and I will support anybody that will like to convert XWorkplace into a WPS replacement by not using the parent WPS classes, but by cloning them.

I agree that in an ideal world, you could clone the WPS. In the real world you haven't got any hope that it will ever happen. There just aren't enough people to do it, unless somebody wins a BIG lottery, and donates a good chunk of it to the cause. So far, that hasn't happened, and even if it does, there are a LOT of other things that need to be done first. It would probably be a 5 year project (even if IBM decided to do it), anyway.

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That is a different things QSINIT is a OS2LDR from scratch which is good, even that the source code is public it is not open source. It says it is for "non-commercial use only" which is incompatible with open source. But this is a good project that maybe someday the author will put it under an open source license.

It is open source. Anybody can get the source. Whether they can make any sense out of it is another matter. The "non-commercial use only" is a bit of a puzzle. I am not sure what that really means. Does it mean that no commercial, entity (Ford, GM) can use it? or does it mean that Mensys cannot include it in eCS? I note that it does not mean that governments, charitable organizations, etc. cannot use it. In any case, it is a stupid restriction, and I am pretty sure that it was included because the author doesn't understand how to make a license, and that is probably because he doesn't fully understand English. In any case, he really should adopt one of the official licenses, because it is quite likely that what he is using would be found to be invalid by most courts. All I can say about that, is that it is better than nothing.

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????? - A software can be killed?, if so OS/2 and all its brand was killed by its owner, IBM.  I don't want to kill it, I want to clone it. The utopian goal is to free it from IBM and from single vendors that comes and goes.

Yes, software can be killed. Sometimes it takes a while, but it can be killed. Some outstanding examples are well known in OS/2 circles. Most of them are the result of not having open source (GENMAC, SIO), but others just get neglected because they become obsolete (doesn't mean that they don't keep on working). If you do manage to get enough developers interested in cloning the WPS, you would first of all, need every one of the people who know something about the WPS. All of them would then need to spend most (if not all) of their time working on that one project, ignoring the other, more important, things like drivers, which are required to keep the OS viable in the short term. After about 5 years of development (I am being very optimistic), the first version of a clone might be available, but by then there would be very few people who haven't moved on (OS/2 cannot survive without updated drivers). Those who do stay with OS/2 will likely be running it on a Virtual Machine, and then it will likely only be one, or two, applications. Other applications, like machine control, don't use the WPS anyway. Why would anybody even care if the WPS has been cloned, but the OS would be effectively "dead".

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you think that the future for the platform is drivers, I just disagree on that. I think that a future for the platform is making it open source.

Drivers can be done. Open sourcing the WPS cannot be done. Face the facts, OS/2 has a limited life span. If you take away drivers (and that would be necessary to get enough people to even start thinking about what needs to be done to clone the WPS), you no longer have a base to run the new WPS on. It would be necessary to convert it to some sort of Linux thing (which may not be all bad, but...), and that would be counter productive.  I still believe that in 5 years, the desktop computer, and laptops, as we know them, will be in the history books. OS/2 is not suited to what is currently replacing those things, and the WPS would need further modifications, that would make it unrecognizable. To do that, would require a LOT more people than the OS/2 platform has available, and it should have started about 10 years ago.

If you really think that you want to clone the WPS, the first step is to document everything that it does. Even that will take a long time, and I would bet that you can't do it, because no one person (or even 100 users) will know all of the features, and capabilities. You may come up with a reasonable sub set, that most people know about, but some of it will remain unknown, simply because parts of it don't get used enough for somebody to remember to  include it in the list.

Other things, like XCOPY desperately need some work, and they are much easier to clone. Start small, and work up to the bigger things as you learn more about it. You start by documenting what it does, then you document what it should do, then you find somebody to write the code, then you get that code tested by a small group of testers, then you get it tested by a larger group of testers, then you release a beta, then you release a GA. Then, you start over because it doesn't work as advertized, or the requirements have changed. Simple, for those who don't have to do it.

Fahrvenugen

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2015, 09:01:23 pm »
I just updated JFS, the license is definitely not open source and instead looks like a standard closed source license. If people and/or companies are taking GPL source and closing it to sell then it reflects really badly on the community. I was always under the impression that the updating work was done with the OS/2 branch of JFS rather then the Linux branch.
Unluckily with the GPL, it is an all or nothing thing.

Hi,

Actually what came out in evidence at the SCO versus IBM trial is that the open source / GPL version of JFS which IBM released was the OS/2 version from WSeB minus the OS/2 stuff. (for those who didn't follow the SCO vs IBM trial, at one point SCO tried to claim that IBM had improperly open sourced the AIX JFS code, to which IBM was able to prove that it used its own code developed for WSeB)

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20090406235022736




Dave Yeo

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2015, 10:28:41 pm »
The evidence was wrong. JFS 0.0.1 included the reference source which is full of OS2isms (actually it looks like plain old OS/2 code that should compile with Visual Age ), things like jfs_os2.h and randomly looking, in fs/jfs/ref/jfs_ea.c code like
Code: [Select]
#define INCL_DOSERRORS
#define INCL_NOPMAPI
#define INCL_DOSPROCESS

#define _cdecl __cdecl

#include <os2.h>

I found the source at http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/system/jfs-0.0.1.tar.gz
I also have a vague memory about the LVM code also being open sourced but have never seen it.

Fahrvenugen

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2015, 04:54:18 am »
The evidence was wrong. JFS 0.0.1 included the reference source which is full of OS2isms (actually it looks like plain old OS/2 code that should compile with Visual Age ), things like jfs_os2.h and randomly looking, in fs/jfs/ref/jfs_ea.c code like
Code: [Select]
#define INCL_DOSERRORS
#define INCL_NOPMAPI
#define INCL_DOSPROCESS

#define _cdecl __cdecl

#include <os2.h>

I found the source at http://ftp.cc.uoc.gr/system/jfs-0.0.1.tar.gz
I also have a vague memory about the LVM code also being open sourced but have never seen it.

Okay, I am corrected, it is entirely possible that I am incorrect about the part of them removing OS/2 code.  However it was entered into evidence that it was the OS/2 version of JFS that was open-sourced for Linux.  There was no evidence presented to contradict this (and SCO was looking for such evidence).  I admit that I have not looked at the GPL'd JFS code, but based on the above, it does appear that this was in fact the OS/2 version that was ported to Linux.

Anyways, within the realm of this discussion, JFS is one of those components of OS/2 which has been open sourced and thus could be used within any OS it gets ported to.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2015, 02:29:51 pm »
I don't know about where you live, but here, the law applies equally to individuals and large corporations. The only thing that saves people from prosecution is that it just isn't worth IBM's time, and expense, to do it.

Hi Doug, I also do not know where you live or your interests on this platform. I didn't said that Abandonware is legal, the discussion started because people don't want to accept OS/2 is abandonware, or don't share the definition of abandonware.

What I said is that it will be legal to create a OS/2 Distro that uses an already pre-owned OS/2 ISO and license, it may be a good solution for us (people that have OS/2 licenses), but it can no be possible to expand the community since new licenses can not be generated. Also, the idea is not to distribuited the produced CD/ISO, the idea is to distribuite the installer for each guy with its OS/2 license and CD generate them by themself (like UpdCD does).

Why are your default thinking of the idea is "Copyright violation"? Why is that your first thought? Why are you trying to discredit an idea that don't even exist yet?
I don't want to start the "I see pirates everywhere" paranoid.  :D

Quote
OS/2 has a limited life span.
Your position is resignation, I just want to fight it a little bit, thats all. We already discussed this, I know that you don't see a future for the platform, you told me that before.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2015, 03:00:11 pm »
Imho I would like to add some ideas about how to make a "new" OS/2 Distro based on Warp 4.52. I do not want to take part in the discussion if it is legal or not or what can be cloned or not. Btw my tendencie is more towards Dougs opinion as I would like to have an OS/2 clone but it seems to me not realistic to ever get one. I am allways suprised to see the "old horse" still  running on modern hardware  8) - and I will try this as long as possible.

UPDCD is really a great piece of software. Once you have arranged everything and put everything in order you can create a bootable OS/2 DVD with almost all modern enhancements if you like. (I reported about it several times).
The one and only main (there are other but not that important) difference in the end between "my" OS/2 DVD and the eCS beta 2.2 is that I do not have ACPI right from the first boot process. I think one could figure this out, but I do not have the time nor the programming knowledge for this.

And in addition: I switched to - in my opinion - a much easier, shorter and better way - creating an universal clone (as I mentionend several times before as well).

The work with this clone has to be done only once, and I have done it for me. Sure, I am updating the clone from time to time.

Besides the 14.106SMP Kernel there are no files from eComstation. It is the Warp 4.52 with all the latest drivers (ACPI,AHCI,USB,JFS,Multimac,Panorama, SNAP,UNIAUD,HPFS386,FAT32,NTFS...), fixpacs, programs (JAVA;QT;Virtualbox;OpenOffice,Firefox,Thunderbird,Seamonkey), enhancements (QSINIT Loader, SAMBA, Finger+Stylus Support,CUPS), emulators (Virtualbox, VirtualPC,ScummVM,Dosbox including Winddows 3.11), tools (INITOR,XWP,DFSEE,AIRBOOTMANAGER,YUM-RPM...) - and in addition - all the Orignial OS/2 Warp 4 Programs (Voicetype,Bonuspak,Tutorial,Warpguides,Netwaresupport....) ....
- alltogether a 2.2GB file where a 8GB Partition is stored in.

The combination:

- DFSEE
- AirBootMananger
- Clone

gives me the opportunity to install this OS/2 Warp 4.52 clone on almost any hardware I do have right now, up to the Sony Vaio Pro 13 Haswell. In addition with the opportunity to have Windows 7 or 8/8.1 alongside...

This cloning succeeds where DVDs at least allways failed. I would have never had a working OS/2 on the Samsung Serie 7 Slate nor the Sony Vaio Pro 13. And it takes much less time.

The attached picture may give some impressions about what my clone and the touch enhancments do look like.









« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 03:11:22 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2015, 06:26:16 pm »
Fahrvenugen , Dave.

I really will like that JFS (with all the JFS boot options) on OS/2 became open source.

The issue seems that if JFS-OS2 code was provided by IBM under the DDK license, it is doomed to be close source software.

If IBM released JFS-OS2 under other license to Mensys/others and later JFS-Linux under GNU GPL, the two source code can not be mixed or merged. (without IBM permission)

I will like to find the source of the JFS-OS2 source code (how it was shared outside IBM) and under which conditions was distributed, since I think that JFS was not included on IBM DDK 2004. Maybe there was a newer release that I'm missing.

Regards
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 10:07:05 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Dave Yeo

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2015, 09:52:47 pm »
I'm not sure what license our JFS branch was released under besides it being propriety. Quoting http://trac.netlabs.org/jfs/wiki
Quote
The license on this source code for this project requires that it remain closed. Contrary to some misinformed opinions regarding the code for this project, it is not and never was GPL.
Which would mean that the developers never used or looked at the GPL code contrary to rumour.
Anyways I've uploaded the GPL branch to the os2world git repository, https://github.com/OS2World/JFS-GPL. In theory it should build but of course is old and probably buggy.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2015, 10:14:22 pm »
Quote
The license on this source code for this project requires that it remain closed. Contrary to some misinformed opinions regarding the code for this project, it is not and never was GPL.

It is ok for David to specify that to do not have confusion. But they still do not tell where did they get the source code for this. Was all original work created by eCo Software, Pasha, Steven and David? Why it can not be open sourced? Is it based on IBM private source code? Is it the "evil" DDK license?

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2015, 04:13:52 pm »
Hi Sigurd

I really think that you should share your UpdCD configuration files to the public, removing all IBM fixpack files and any other copyright, non- freeware files. Maybe you had been trolled on the past for trying to do this and that is why you preferred to do it privately, but I think it is a good idea.

Regards
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 04:17:42 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Re: No word from Mensys/XEU - Alternatives?
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2015, 10:03:38 am »
Hi Sigurd

I really think that you should share your UpdCD configuration files to the public, removing all IBM fixpack files and any other copyright, non- freeware files. Maybe you had been trolled on the past for trying to do this and that is why you preferred to do it privately, but I think it is a good idea.

Regards

Hi Martin,

I think I will never share my UPDCD configuration nor my "Clones" - not even the "Universal clone". Fortunately I have not been trolled in the past because of this (or I missed or missunderstood it) and even if so - I do not care  ;)

The reasons for not sharing are:

- I invested to much time in this
- I do not want to have a lot of questions/problems because my version will not run or fit for others (as it for sure will, so problems are at hand)
- I already published so many hints and how to's to do it on your own, if one want's to (i.e. here http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,335.0.html)

Even if I tried to build (and somehow succeeded) a new OS/2 Warp 4.52 DVD I still think it is the wrong path. DVDs are outdated.

I suggest to produce a bootable USB stick, containing DFSEE, a universal clone, and some special files needed for special hardware (Stylus+Finger support i.e.).
During the OS/2 User Meeting 2013 someone already showed a bootable OS/2 Merlin USB Stick with a working File Commander....

But who know's where the journey will lead to - Arca Noae and Bitwise are giving a strong hope to get and have drivers and applications for future use - but Mensys does show the opposite round with trying to get at least something out the door.

Once you have a license, start with the cloning method plus the support of Arca Noae, Bitwise, Paul Smedley, Wim Brul and all the others here around the community (sorry for not naming all) - there is simply no need anymore for a new Mensys Distro.