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OS/2 & eCS USB HID driver incomplete

Started by demetrioussharpe, 2010.11.23, 04:48:42

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demetrioussharpe

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.24, 20:11:04
I really don't want to see good programing talent going to waste on joysticks, when accelerated video, is no longer available, JAVA 6 is not, yet available, many printers are not supported, large disk drives are waiting for support, AHCI disk controllers are not, yet, supported, and so on. It seems to me, that joysticks are WAAAY down on the list of necessary items. Besides, what would you use it for?

Accelerated 3d is in the works. I really don't foresee an accelerated solution that takes full advantage of video cards until the kernel & the whole graphics stack is replaced. I like the layout of the stack, but we need a stack that we have the code for & can extend. Truth be told, we need a less convoluted driver API that isn't trying to be some hybrid 16/32-bit abomination.

There's gotta already be an open source java 6 project. We just need a programmer who's on our team to either join the project or port it him/herself.

Large disks, it's really time for a new kernel & device driver stack first.

AHCI, see java 6.

Printers, grab the source to CUPS & see java 6.

Joysticks aren't necessary for a working, modern OS/2. However, if anyone wants the OS/2 community to grow, you have to realize that people don't move to a platform that they can write emails on & browse the net if there's no chance for them to enjoy some of the games that they also play on other platforms. We can't afford to have the "all work & no play" mentality here. Who cares if we can print, use java, or some of the other things if we don't cover some of the more simple, basic things.
The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!

demetrioussharpe

What just happened? Did we just loose page 1 of this topic???
The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!

demetrioussharpe

The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!

DougB

Mensys has the JAVA 6 project under way, with some progress. AHCI is also under way in the Dani driver project, but nothing yet. CUPS is addressing the printer problem, but is far from satisfactory, so far. ACPI is turning into a farce, especially for those of us who have AMD processors, and you want to play games?

Yes, I know where you are coming from, but as I said, there are a LOT of things that need to be fixed before anybody even thinks about making a joystick work. If the basic OS won't work, games quickly become a non issue.

QuoteWho cares if we can print, use java, or some of the other things if we don't cover some of the more simple, basic things.

Well, that is quite a statement. Without JAVA, half the world can't log into their bank accounts. While I sort of agree with you about printing (back in the early 1980's some bigwig in IBM told us that printers would be obsolete by 1990 - but then look what they did with OS/2), I don't think you will convince most users that printing isn't more important than having support for a joystick.

You have some interesting comments on kernels. If the kernel does get developed (and I think that is a big IF), the rest could follow. However, it seems that the project has been under way for some time, and there isn't a lot to show for it, yet. It all comes down the the problem where there are not enough programers, and those programers who are working on it are still subject to 24 hours days (plus a lot of them need to have a job to support their families). The rest of the "dream on" stuff would have to come after the kernel is developed, which will add another, significant, amount of time to get to the end result. Meanwhile, Joystick support is probably the last thing on most people's minds, but don't let that discourage you, if you want to do it. I would rather that I could use JAVA with OpenOffice, or Firefox.

rudi

Quote from: demetrioussharpe on 2010.11.25, 01:11:34
Yeh, I can't seem to access the svn version, no password.

I can tell you, that the joystick driver is not in this repository. I have no idea, where the source code is. If it ever was hosted at Netlabs, then Adrian (alias "ktk") might know. There also used to be a Warpstock presentation by Markus Montkowski, which described certain concepts of HID operation on OS/2 by a sample joystick driver. Also no idea if this information is still available. Markus quit doing OS/2 stuff a long time ago...


diver

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
Mensys has the JAVA 6 project under way, with some progress.

just a little remark on that. Mensys is not doing the project. Mensys is only the main sponsor of it. And of course Mozilla and OpenOffice plugins are planed.
and as a last, if you look at svn.netlabs.org/java you see all the progress this project is doing.

regards
Silvan
Java project lead

Joachim

Quote from: diver on 2010.11.25, 11:00:18

if you look at svn.netlabs.org/java you see all the progress this project is doing.

regards
Silvan
Java project lead

Make that http://svn.netlabs.org/java so people can directly click the link ;)

Joachim


warpcafe

Hi,

Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.25, 09:18:52
There also used to be a Warpstock presentation by Markus Montkowski, which described certain concepts of HID operation on OS/2 by a sample joystick driver. Also no idea if this information is still available. Markus quit doing OS/2 stuff a long time ago...

Was that perhaps the Diepenbeek (2001 IIRC) Warpstock Europe?
In this case the slides (if any) should be availabkle somewhere... let me see if I can dig them out from a handout CD or some web archive once I'm back home... will post here if I find something. Cheers,

Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

demetrioussharpe

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
...Yes, I know where you are coming from, but as I said, there are a LOT of things that need to be fixed before anybody even thinks about making a joystick work. If the basic OS won't work, games quickly become a non issue.

I think you fail to realize how people who don't already use OS/2 view it. Sure, OS/2 need more important things. But it also needs these things as well. Unless you want to continue to relegate OS/2 to the corporate world & neglect the home user, youve gotta realize that modern users aren't going to switch to OS/2 based on Java or printing, they can do that already with Windows, Linux, BSD, MacOS X, Solaris & almost every other OS. You're really going to have something a lot more compelling. It's the same basic problem as why Plan9 was never able to replace Unix; Unix was good enough, there wasn't a compelling reason to unseat it.

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
Well, that is quite a statement. Without JAVA, half the world can't log into their bank accounts. While I sort of agree with you about printing (back in the early 1980's some bigwig in IBM told us that printers would be obsolete by 1990 - but then look what they did with OS/2), I don't think you will convince most users that printing isn't more important than having support for a joystick.

I don't think you'll convince users to switch to OS/2 based on printers.

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 08:56:33
You have some interesting comments on kernels. If the kernel does get developed (and I think that is a big IF), the rest could follow. However, it seems that the project has been under way for some time, and there isn't a lot to show for it, yet. It all comes down the the problem where there are not enough programers, and those programers who are working on it are still subject to 24 hours days (plus a lot of them need to have a job to support their families). The rest of the "dream on" stuff would have to come after the kernel is developed, which will add another, significant, amount of time to get to the end result. Meanwhile, Joystick support is probably the last thing on most people's minds, but don't let that discourage you, if you want to do it. I would rather that I could use JAVA with OpenOffice, or Firefox.

Perhaps you would, but you might want to remember that it was DirectX that helped Win95 unseat DOS.
The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!

demetrioussharpe

Quote from: warpcafe on 2010.11.25, 11:46:31
Hi,

Quote from: rudi on 2010.11.25, 09:18:52
There also used to be a Warpstock presentation by Markus Montkowski, which described certain concepts of HID operation on OS/2 by a sample joystick driver. Also no idea if this information is still available. Markus quit doing OS/2 stuff a long time ago...

Was that perhaps the Diepenbeek (2001 IIRC) Warpstock Europe?
In this case the slides (if any) should be availabkle somewhere... let me see if I can dig them out from a handout CD or some web archive once I'm back home... will post here if I find something. Cheers,

Thomas

Thanks!
The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!

rudi

Quote from: warpcafe on 2010.11.25, 11:46:31
Was that perhaps the Diepenbeek (2001 IIRC) Warpstock Europe?

I was referring to this one: http://www2.warpstock.org/2000/presentations/programming.html#prg06

However, he might have given that presentation - maybe even in an improved version - at Warpstock Europe as well.

DougB

QuoteBut it also needs these things as well.

Well, get at it. It seems that you know how to do these things. I don't, and most users don't. As I said before, there are not enough programers to go around, and there are still only 24 hours in a day. If the OS can't even print, we will lose the corporate world, and they are the ones who are keeping OS/2 alive, at the moment.

Quoteyouve gotta realize that modern users aren't going to switch to OS/2 based on Java or printing,

They aren't going to stay with it if it doesn't have those things. Joysticks are usable with games, There is no way that enough games will ever get ported to OS/2 to make a joystick really useful. Anybody who wants to play games is going to use windows. That is the one thing that windows is good for, and that seems to be where the most development money goes. We can never hope to even scratch the surface on that front.

QuoteI don't think you'll convince users to switch to OS/2 based on printers.

No, but they surely won't switch to, or stay with, an OS that can't even print.

I use "printing" as one example of many things that OS/2 is lacking.

Quotebut you might want to remember that it was DirectX that helped Win95 unseat DOS.

And, it was DirectX that unseated OS/2 too (with more than a little help from IBM). The only way to combat that, is to write our own DirectX, but that would probably result in huge, very expensive, lawsuits, even if it was possible. OS/2 has it's own niche market. and games are not a part of that market. To take even a very small part of that would take a horrendous amount of very hard work, by more people than are available to do it, and you still need to do the basics (printing, JAVA), or it is all for nothing.

OS/2 has always been acknowledged as a solid OS that people use to get work done. It never was a gaming system, and I expect that it never will be (Linux isn't either). Sure some games do work with it, but they are not the serious (dare I use that term?) games that are written for windows.Then again, if Odin (or one of it's like) could be expanded to cover all of the required parts, it may actually be possible to run some of the games, and then the joystick support might be useful. Odin seems to be close to a dead end (to few interested developers), so I don't expect that to happen. Not only is it unlikely to happen, but anyone who wastes their time trying to make it happen, takes away one more programer that is vitally needed to make things like printers work.

It's all a matter of priorities. Make the fluff work, or make the basics work. Take your pick. Without the basics, the fluff doesn't matter.

BTW, by "joystick" I assume you really mean one of those game controllers, with 15 buttons, and a couple of sticks. I am not even sure if an old style joystick is still available, and I am even less sure what it would be good for.

Re: JAVA 6:
Quotejust a little remark on that. Mensys is not doing the project. Mensys is only the main sponsor of it

Ah yes, I knew that, Sorry...

demetrioussharpe

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 19:24:31
Well, get at it. It seems that you know how to do these things. I don't, and most users don't. As I said before, there are not enough programers to go around, and there are still only 24 hours in a day. If the OS can't even print, we will lose the corporate world, and they are the ones who are keeping OS/2 alive, at the moment.

My hands are a bit full at the moment with GL/2 & a few other things that I'm not ready to announce yet. As for the corporate world, that's all well & good for now, but eventually, that well is going to run dry. The basis of what I'm saying is that we have to take the future of OS/2 into our own hands. The corporate world is only going to keep OS/2 around as long as there's something in it for them. What do you supposed is going to happen when they can't use OS/2 anymore after one of their hardware upgrades? Not all of my work is based on gaming. Some of my work is more serious. But, like you said, there's only 24hrs a day & I'm a full time soldier. There's only so much that I can do.

Quote
They aren't going to stay with it if it doesn't have those things. Joysticks are usable with games, There is no way that enough games will ever get ported to OS/2 to make a joystick really useful. Anybody who wants to play games is going to use windows. That is the one thing that windows is good for, and that seems to be where the most development money goes. We can never hope to even scratch the surface on that front.

Yes, joysticks are good for games. But there're also good for other things. Consider the other areas that it would be great to get OS/2, eCS, or a future version to get integrated into. Perhaps even robotics, you never know unless you try.

QuoteNo, but they surely won't switch to, or stay with, an OS that can't even print.

I use "printing" as one example of many things that OS/2 is lacking.

Well, if OS/2 can't print & if there aren't enough developers to help out in that goal, then perhaps it's time for new developers to be created. The source is out there & the development tools are free. Learning resources are freely available online & can be found anywhere. So, how bad do you want printing support???

QuoteAnd, it was DirectX that unseated OS/2 too (with more than a little help from IBM). The only way to combat that, is to write our own DirectX, but that would probably result in huge, very expensive, lawsuits, even if it was possible. OS/2 has it's own niche market. and games are not a part of that market. To take even a very small part of that would take a horrendous amount of very hard work, by more people than are available to do it, and you still need to do the basics (printing, JAVA), or it is all for nothing.

We don't have to have DirectX specifically, but we need something. Sure, IBM was holding the hammers & nails for OS/2's coffin, just like everyone else, but that doesn't mean that we have to get into the coffin. Niche markets are fine, but they don't last forever. As far as the hard work, all it takes is people who're willing to meet in the middle. I'll bring the sandwiches, you bring the drinks, & someone else brings the music, now we have a party.

QuoteOS/2 has always been acknowledged as a solid OS that people use to get work done. It never was a gaming system, and I expect that it never will be (Linux isn't either). Sure some games do work with it, but they are not the serious (dare I use that term?) games that are written for windows.Then again, if Odin (or one of it's like) could be expanded to cover all of the required parts, it may actually be possible to run some of the games, and then the joystick support might be useful. Odin seems to be close to a dead end (to few interested developers), so I don't expect that to happen. Not only is it unlikely to happen, but anyone who wastes their time trying to make it happen, takes away one more programer that is vitally needed to make things like printers work.

The OS graveyard is full of solid OS's, so being solid doesn't mean a whole lot. Afterall, look at the situation that OS/2 is in now. We can't afford to lay blame & point fingers, we also don't have the time. Even if Odin was usable, we'd still need a joystick API to hook it into. As for one more programmer being taken away, take personal responsibility for adding one more programmer.

QuoteIt's all a matter of priorities. Make the fluff work, or make the basics work. Take your pick. Without the basics, the fluff doesn't matter.

The thing about most pieces of fluff is that it's usually simple & only has to be done once, then it's done. As for priorities, my priority is for it ALL to work. There's no picking & choosing. Just because you can live without your ears, doesn't mean that your ears are not important.

QuoteBTW, by "joystick" I assume you really mean one of those game controllers, with 15 buttons, and a couple of sticks. I am not even sure if an old style joystick is still available, and I am even less sure what it would be good for.

These days, we don't have to worry about the old-school joysticks. Most modern devices will be connected by USB & will have way more functionality than their predecessors.
The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!

DougB

QuoteMy hands are a bit full at the moment
QuoteThere's only so much that I can do

Exactly my point. YOU have higher priorities, so it isn't likely to happen, unless somebody else wants to take it on, and most of those who are capable, are alresdy up to their ears in work.

QuoteAs for the corporate world, that's all well & good for now, but eventually, that well is going to run dry

It will if they can't use a modern browser (exists) with JAVA support, and probably FLASH. Hopefully, that stuff is not too far off. One other thing that *might* cause a problem, would be a new, unproven, kernel. Corporations, and governments, are somewhat skitish about things like that, and it is one of the reasons why many of them have not moved to Linux. Even more work to do...

Quoteyou never know unless you try.

That is true. The problem is that few have either the interest, or the time, to try.

Quotethen perhaps it's time for new developers to be created.

That would be great. I have done some programing, but I find that i am not able to concentrate enough to do it successfully. I spend a LOT more time reading the docs, and experimenting to get it to work, than I do actually accomplishing anything. So, I have decided to stick with REXX, and I am learning how to use DrDialog. It still takes ages to accomplish anything. I also do a lot of resting for the PMMail project (not enough to prevent users from finding problems, but I try). I also do some of the support for PMMail.

QuoteI'll bring the sandwiches, you bring the drinks, & someone else brings the music, now we have a party

Great idea. Where do we find the guy with the music? I suppose we can get along without it though.

Quoteust because you can live without your ears, doesn't mean that your ears are not important.

Ears aren't very important, if you have no head to hang them on.

Don't get me wrong, I believe every word that you write, but I am also a realist, and I know that we can't do it all. At the moment, OS/2 is in heavy duty survival mode, and there are not enough people to go around. If one must cut off the ears to ensure the survival of the patient, one must do that. New ears can be added later, once the recovery is made. Of course, if you want a break from your other projects, a joystick driver might be something that somebody, somewhere, might use.

demetrioussharpe

Quote from: DougB on 2010.11.25, 23:00:29
Exactly my point. YOU have higher priorities, so it isn't likely to happen, unless somebody else wants to take it on, and most of those who are capable, are already up to their ears in work.

Had I not started the GL/2 work first, I may've jumped right into the joystick problem. Not only do we need a fairly universal joystick driver, we also need a useful framework API to access it. Consider all of that as part of my TODO list. One of my main objectives is to make it easier to bring modern interactive entertainment to OS/2. From my end, this includes OpenGL, OpenAL, joysticks, an input framework for accessing joysticks, & possibly the OSS sound drivers & framework. Some of those are actually easier to do than others, so I may arrange my TODO list by order of difficulty level.

QuoteIt will if they can't use a modern browser (exists) with JAVA support, and probably FLASH. Hopefully, that stuff is not too far off. One other thing that *might* cause a problem, would be a new, unproven, kernel. Corporations, and governments, are somewhat skitish about things like that, and it is one of the reasons why many of them have not moved to Linux. Even more work to do...

Unfortunately, I'm a bit lower on the development stack. I stay at the system level. Others will have to take up the mantle of apps porting & development. However, should I produce a viable kernel ready for insertion, can I count on you to give it a shot? A very important part of the development cycle is testing & as you said earlier, corporations will not take to a new kernel so quickly. Luckily, the kernel that I'd like to modify has had tons of testing & has proven itself over the years. If that sounds fair, stay tuned, more to follow.


QuoteThat is true. The problem is that few have either the interest, or the time, to try.

I'm doing what I can to lighten the load. Hopefully, I'll be able to produce enough contributions at a fast enough pace to effectively lighten the load a bit.

QuoteThat would be great. I have done some programing, but I find that i am not able to concentrate enough to do it successfully. I spend a LOT more time reading the docs, and experimenting to get it to work, than I do actually accomplishing anything. So, I have decided to stick with REXX, and I am learning how to use DrDialog. It still takes ages to accomplish anything. I also do a lot of resting for the PMMail project (not enough to prevent users from finding problems, but I try). I also do some of the support for PMMail.

Ok, well, I'm sure that you'll come in handy as new development roll out.

QuoteGreat idea. Where do we find the guy with the music? I suppose we can get along without it though.

Someone always has music. Hopefully, we won't end up in a situation where we have to face the music on OS/2's viability. I hope to make sure that OS/2 continues to sing sweet music & not a swan song.

QuoteEars aren't very important, if you have no head to hang them on.

If all works out according to plan, we'll have new ears & a new head; both of which I consider equally important. I'm focused on the total body health of OS/2.

QuoteDon't get me wrong, I believe every word that you write, but I am also a realist, and I know that we can't do it all. At the moment, OS/2 is in heavy duty survival mode, and there are not enough people to go around. If one must cut off the ears to ensure the survival of the patient, one must do that. New ears can be added later, once the recovery is made. Of course, if you want a break from your other projects, a joystick driver might be something that somebody, somewhere, might use.

You & I are not much different in our beliefs. Our main differences stem from how we think that our general goals can be achieved. Hopefully, I can help get OS/2 off of life support & into outpatient recovery. You're absolutely correct, there isn't enough people to go around. Which means that I will have to work much harder; not only to become a more visible, contributing part of the community, but also to become a conduit to channel more resources towards OS/2. I seem to get more done when I multitask my development goals. Perhaps I will push the joystick driver into the current development queue.
The difference between what COULD be achieved & what IS achieved
is directly relational to what you COULD be doing & what you ARE doing!