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Status update on eComStation 2.0

Started by Sigurd, 2009.06.30, 09:17:38

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Sigurd

http://www.os2world.com/content/view/19019/1/
QuotePosted by Martin Iturbide - Tuesday, 30 June 2009


The followi. .. .

Sorry,

but this is to late, I fear. While the "Time syncronisation with Bulgaria" is fixed these things here happen as Thorolf Godawa tells here http://de.os2.org/forum/diskussion/?id=122090 (sorry, it has to be translated into English):

- Dani stopped Development of DANI Dirvers
- Willibald Meyer does not see any sense any more in further Development of GENMAC
- Peter Weilbacher does not have the time to get his Mozilla Envirement running

Other German Developers already switched to MAC or starting to find an alternative.

For me the lack of support of WLAN and LAN Hardware is the KO criteria. There is no support for modern chipsets, especially those launched since the last year (like Intel 5100 and so on).

I know that Mensys told before to have resources to keep all these things going on, but I have to be honestly and polite - I hope this becomes true.

The current status of eComStation in my opinion allows to install on hardware with an support of the most important things (Graphics, USB, LAN, WLAN) only if it is about two years old. And this will become rapidly worse. Otherwise you have to break warranties while dissambling components (espacially for notebooks and netbooks) and may destroy parts of the hardware (as happend to me unfortunately) or you have to ask for a special supplier.....

I really feel sorry for this and did have patience (I guess really a lot patience) and paid quite some money for it over the past 5 years but provided with these news it is now time for me.

Sigurd


CDRWSel

Hi !
I do not understand your position.
* Dani's driver is very stable with a very very high HW compatibility
* WLAN is not good for Health (WLAN was disabled in many public buildings). I replaced existing WLAN by a "CPL" solution (e.g. http://www.materiel.net/ctl/Solutions_CPL_et_PoE/ ) which is safe. Since I disabled my WLAN and reduced existing sky-wave in my bedroom, I have better sleeping.
* GENMAC (this may be a problem in the futur with very new HW) Hope a solution could be found
RD.
 

Sigurd

Hi,

my position is a result of the experience I made over the last two years. And especially a result of the statement Thorolf gave. If it takes 5 years to try to keep ACPI in touch with the hardware and on the other hand so many developer do "pass away" - how long will it take to come someday to a level where eComStation will support the ACTUAL hardware in a stable way?

Yes, I know, there is a lot of Hardware around, if you can find it and build your own machine it might or will work, but:

- you may try to do this if you need a netbook as I wrote before.
- as I wrote already in 2006 (!) : " I do not need an eComStation promised for 2007 that will run on hardware from 2004!". And now, already three more years passed away.

I feel really sorry for all those developers who spent their spare time to push this forward without the result they deserve.

Sigurd


chennecke

Well... First of all, the situation hasn't really changed, or has it? Second, you should take Thorolf's statements with a grain of salt IMO, given his lashing out in the OS2.org forum and such. Third, it has been stated in this forum that a new maintainer for Daniela's driver has already been found. (As for the reasons for her stopping development, they seem to be rather home-made -- AFAIK she's been harassed by some stupid <insert your favorite expletive here> OS/2 user.)

While I can understand your point up to a certain point, I have to say you've become somewhat double-minded and extremely easy to frustrate. Or maybe you have already decided to drop OS/2 but can't admit that to yourself yet? Well, if you feel that it's time to move on, do it. You are free to do so and nobody should hit you over the head because of it. Just don't join the ranks of those idiots who breathe fire and brimstone on OS/2 to justify their step, please.

warpcafe

Folks,

you know... since 2 or three weeks I noticed something strange:
- eComStation rumored in more "unbiased" sources than ever before (not the usual sources I mean)
- long-time zealots (geeks, nerds,...) of OS/2 turning their back and leaving
- some *real* attempts to go commercial on a different scope are being investigated (can't tell more)
- Mensys is trying to become more aware of the importance communication towards the community
  (okay, not yet to the extent we all would like, but at least some change here)

And all these symptoms -for me- mean:
eComStation is growing up. eComStation changes.

I have seen these symptoms with other "dead" operating systems, other communities (BBS days) and also with certain pieces of software far beyond the universe of OS/2. These all are clear signs that things are beginning to seriously change. Change means, that some people don't like the direction things are going. They keep ranting and screaming and becoming, well, unpolite and resistent to matter-of-fact discussion.
Others simply silently disappear.

As Christian pointed out: What is the REAL change on the situation?
- The DANI drivers don't support tomorrows chipsets or even some of today... aha, so what? The whole stuff is available for anyone... I mean "source code" - hey, this is not the OS/2 kernel but a freely available open piece of software. Learn it, grab it, do it. You can't? Then stop ranting. Pay a developer. Do testing.
- Panorama is slow and Snap out of date. Heck, participate with your expertise, do coding! You can't? Then stop ranting. Pay a developer. Do testing.
- Can't install eCS next to Vista? Fix the LVM stuff. You can't? OK, this time: Wait. Solution is found...
- ACPI doesn't work for you? File a detailed report, download the fix from beta zone. Oh, you can't because you don't have a subscription? Buy it.
- You are not satisfied with documentation? Try out yourself, fins solutions, document them!

You are pissed off by Mensys taking YEARS to make eComStation 2.0 GA ready?
Then go. No one forces you to stay. Get Mac. Get Haiku. Get any flavor of Linux. Get Windows and all your hardware will work (I mean this serious!).

Alternative: Participate in coding - this would increase the amount of developers for ACPI by 100%, for Dani by 100%, for Panorama by 100%... you get the picture? WE HAVE NO ONE DOING IT. And thanks to Mensys, there ARE at least people that bring you Panorama, ACPI, LVM etc.

The REAL change is that for some people, their "role" or "importance" in the community is changing. And people are afraid of changes. They don't like it. Losing a habit is losing control. And it is a chain reaction: If a developer quits, the "supporters" become unemployed too, they lose their aura of "expertise" that surrounded them and made them feel comfortable. Suddenly they are nothing special any more. Just someone who knows a lot about something nobody is interested in any longer.

And regarding Thorolf... I wonder. He seems to be so pissed off by everything, why doesn't he simply say "good bye", buys a Mac, shuts up and leaves the other people in peace? Then again, if he really wants to change something here, his wording is more than counter-productive... but unfortunately "by intention" I'm afraid.  Well, you know... some people need to burn bridges to get away from their past. It's just too bad they don't care about others still standing on them.

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

jep

Well spoken WarpCafe, very well spoken!

//Jan-Erik

Sigurd

#6
Hello Christian,

to a certain degree you are right, for sure, I am double minded, that is true.

- Yes , I am sometimes very dissappointed, not to say frustrated
- and Yes, sometimes I am quite in a kind of High spirits

Why?:

- Frustrated: because of the NONE Information given by Mensys, all the problems, discussed for years now, never changed, never got the point, never showed something like a plan behind it, -  especially all those days when it comes that announced deadlines have passed away without any information, proofed several times. And I hope you do not think I want to behave like the people you have in mind, want to destroy something or just complaining. No - I am at least a customer who payed once (and again) for something promised that actually did not happen.

And I think it is not fair to say criticism is not fair because this damages the people who still do a lot for this project. Shouldn`t it be allowed to do so? To tell your opinion?

For me I always tried my best with my limited possibilities to at least participate in this development, to push something, to announce something, to make some advertisement, therefore I made the videos, spook at Warpstock about Netbooks and made the Howto's to that. That have been the times where I have been in

- high spirits: Yes - eComStation can be installed and runs on Netbooks! Yes - it runs on the Lenovo Thinkpad SL 300! Yes - it is possible to run Windows 7 in Virtualbox under eComStation! Yes, the first draft of eComStation/netbook videos have been seen by about 5.000 viewers!  Yes - the OS/2 thread at ASUSEEEUSER.com have been hit more than 25.000 times (more than MacOS or Solaris...)!

Hope, this explains the rollercoaster I am driving here with eComStation.

Yes - you are right - deep in my mind I do not want to miss OS/2 - eComStation, I can not say why, it was the first operating system I ever owned, the first on my first PC. Due to the fact to have only Windows users around it has always mean something special (not in terms like something better) to use this Operating System. And it makes so much fun to fix problems with other users, with this community here, meet new people like Ed Durrant, Robert Lalla, and so on and so on.

But when it comes to Mensys - this outrages me! And this outrages me even more, when I think of all those people like you and a lot of others who do so much for this project, as I told you at os2.org as well.

So, please, do not take this as something counterproductive, I do not want to persuade anyone to anything or to start a "revolution", I just want to say : Thats pretty steep to treat customers like this!

And I know, this will change nothing, but after all this years, because of still having a great relation to this operating system, it would be to easy for me just to say goodbye.

To many have just gone.

Hi Thomas (warpcafe),

sorry, because of my limited english it took some time for me to answer to Christian, therefore I missed the meanwhile incoming.

Just to stress this - if it is adressed to me:

- I do not take part in coding or something like this because my programming skills are close to 0,00% (told before in other threads). To learn to program I simply do not have the time, I have to work and have a wife and three children. These are much more important to me. And that is the reason why a already paid for Mensys, and not only once!

- I do not have any problem about my "role in the OS/2 world", for me I do not play or have one, if it is so, sorry, I never realized it. And for me there is no need to play it. As told before: if one of my children becomes ill - that is the kind of problems wich are important to me

And that Mensys brings the stuff, no one else is able or willing to do: Yes - that is what I as a customer can demand when I payed for it, isn't it? That seems to me logical and usual in business.

Why is it a problem to tell that I am not satisfied with that what is provided from Mensys?

And you are right: what is the REAL change in this situation? NOTHING.


Fahrvenugen

If I had $1 for every time that OS/2 was declared "dead", I'd probably be able to fund development for another 10 years!

But seriously, I've always taken the approach that it is best to use the best tool, software, OS, or whatever for the job at hand.  Sometimes that's OS/2, sometimes it is not.  It all depends on a variety of factors, including (but not limited to):

-What the task is
-Familiarity with the system
-Cost factors
-Politics / management decisions (which you may have no control over)
-What the current operating system / environment is
-Ability to quickly deploy a solution
-comfort with the system
-A variety of others factors too

For me its an operating system, just like others available (in some ways better then others, in some ways it is weaker / lacking features).   There are places I've installed OS/2 as a solution because it made most sense (one location I removed Linux from a machine, as it was working but not doing the best job it could, and moved over to an OS/2 based system).  Other places I've installed Linux because that made more sense.  And yes, I've installed Windows too.

So that's my advice (for anyone who cares).  If OS/2 / eCS makes sense for you, what you're doing, is working and you're happy with it, then go ahead and use it.  If it doesn't, then look to other alternatives.  It'll work for a lot of things, for others it is admittedly a weaker choice.


chennecke

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Yes, Mensys' way of handling information has been suboptimal to say the least. And there are other things that certainly could have gone better.

Nevertheless, you -- and many others for that matter -- are throwing all kinds of things together, giving the stuff in the great pot a good stir and blaming Mensys for everything. This includes responsability for all kinds of development stuff. Heck, they've invested not-so-small 5-digit sums into Uniaud and ACPI. They've hired Steven Levine for management and coding stuff. They've hired a developer to continue with DANIS506, and now they are thinking about funding Mozilla development! There is a limit as to what they can do, even with all the money we customers have paid for licenses and subscriptions.
And as far as aspects of project management are concerned: Several features that were planned for 2.0 have been shelved because they ate up too many resources or couldn't be finished in time.

Believe me, I understand the rollercoaster ride -- I've been on that myself. But we need to be realistic and down to earth. The current discussion is too emotionally laden by far.

warpcafe

Hey all,

just to make sure:
I did not want to blame or insult anyone in person, certainly not Sigurd. ;)
...well, except for Thorolf perhaps, but that's another story related to WSE... anyway:

When I talked about "some people" it was really meant this way "some people". Hypothetically. Whatever. Not anyone in person (ok, again perhaps for Thorolf...)

What I want to avoid is people "leaving" eCS *NOW*.
I mean, hey... we've all been waiting since -when? 2006?- for 2.0GA to arrive. Now it looks like FINALLY it's coming to our doorsteps and the community starts to fall apart and bash itself in a way I haven't seen before. Heck, wait for silver, wait for the GA... perhaps for Fixpak1... and then say "forget it". But not now.

Once the weight of te "GA pressure" is off Mensys' shoulders, who knows? Perhaps they learn from all it and will change things for the future. Smaller iterations, smaller project scopes, some experience with reliability (or not) of developers... let's see.

By the way - I don't know anyway why people are waiting for the "GA"... for the sake of a "GA" or what?
I mean - what is the point in here? The GA will be "latest RC" plus "latest fixes for (ACPI, ...)" plus cosmetic stuff... more or less. All this (except for the cosmetics) can already be retrieved NOW. SO what is everyone's individual benefit in the GA?

The real benefit for me is not the GA but...: An updated DemoCD!!
It will be updated once a stable GA is out the door - okay. I see a GA coming - but I'm much more interested into the 2.0 DemoCD that's slipstreaming the GA... something I can give to people... or slide into any machine I have access to to see if eCS runs (and so I can provide feedback for the supported systems database). Do you think I will install GA on top of my smooth-and-flawlessly running RC6?! ;)

Well. People get ready. People, don't panic.
We have still time enough to panic - why start today? :)

P.S.: What is everyone "expecting" from the GA here?
Let's open a new thread for that...

Cheers,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

rwklein

Quote from: Sigurd on 2009.06.30, 17:44:53
Hello Christian,

<snip>

Why?:

- Frustrated: because of the NONE Information given by Mensys, all the problems, discussed for years now, never changed, never got the point, never showed something like a plan behind it, -  especially all those days when it comes that announced deadlines have passed away without any information, proofed several times. And I hope you do not think I want to behave like the people you have in mind, want to destroy something or just complaining. No - I am at least a customer who payed once (and again) for something promised that actually did not happen.

And I think it is not fair to say criticism is not fair because this damages the people who still do a lot for this project. Shouldn`t it be allowed to do so? To tell your opinion?

<snip>

And that Mensys brings the stuff, no one else is able or willing to do: Yes - that is what I as a customer can demand when I payed for it, isn't it? That seems to me logical and usual in business.

Why is it a problem to tell that I am not satisfied with that what is provided from Mensys?

And you are right: what is the REAL change in this situation? NOTHING.

The fact that you get little, to information, is because of the simple fact that its to busy here at Mensys.
And I wish it was, honestly, it was different!  People see that as an excuse, when I mention that.
Yes it only takes 5 minutes to do that crucial website update for information. The R&D (research and development) that takes place here consumes masses of time. And it seems few people are willing to do that R&D.

Its thanks to the R&D that I did here that RSPINST from IBM runs on Athlon 64 and that we can install eCS. Certainly its taken for granted and you as a community certainly have a right to expect a working product that you buy!

Some people blaim project management. But in my view when you drill deeper into the sollutions handed down by people, to improve project management,  thats when the wrinkels become visable in theory handed down. For eCS 2.0 50% of the orginal feature set has already been scrapped and moved for beyond eCS 2.0. eCS 2.0 is the big pickup OS/2 needed after IBM basicly did Warp 4. And I knew it would be difficult, but that difficult as its turning to be, not ?

You know all does people who talk about a "plan". It was such uncharted terrain where ACPI would take us. As it would push the OS2KRNL to new limits never done before. Is ACPI working the way it should ? No its not. But just like with most eCS code it needs time to mature. The disc resizer and Samba for example. eCS 2.0 Silver release will contain a very mature implementation of Samba for example.

eCS 2.0 has been feature complete for almost 2 years now. But it has not beens stable enough for shipment as a GA product.

Mensys is involved with to many things. And yes we do cream off all types of projects. Some people claim to know what we do in daily live in the office here. But in my humble view sometimes a distorted picture has been given by how "ineffcient" we sometimes work.

We are certainly greatfull for the volenteers working on eComStation! And yes they are out there.
People like Peter Weilbacher, Alex Taylor, Jaques van Leeuwen, just mention a few names.


We have already jacked up the amount of funding much further to get things done. By hiring people!

I'm not aware of a such a small company that is so interwoven in a community as Mensys is with Joachim and me (Roderick).
So far we make certain we get an Open Office on eCS. I'm trying to pull the OS/2 VOICE  back on track. How often Warpstock got started or was even made possible because I persoanly stuck my neck out in the last years to various degrees.
Some people can stand comfirm that here on os2world.com.

We invested time and money to debug UNIAUD. Guess why WIN32PRN was started in 2002, that was me (oke it did not work out as planned). Flash 10 is still on track and being worked (some people outside Mensys now have an early test version).

SNAP got stranded and Panorama is here now and working not that bad. I'm emailing with the guy that will the DANIS506.ADD / AHCI device driver developer (follow up of SATA). I'm coordinating extra investment in CUPS via VOICE to fix the printer driver problem.  USB drivers being worked in the background.


Is eComStation a commercial, venture, yes it is! Should Mensys be involved with all the community stuff ?
Well no, but honestly I have tried to outsource stuff out the door so I could focus on the more big picture.
But that has worked out mostely differently then planned...

Any volunteers for VOICE ?

Roderick Klein
Mensys

CDRWSel

Hi,

I'm realy confident the remaining problems are going to be resolved. Just see a few month backward and see the big progress was done ! The progress was very faster than new technology progress and this is a very good news.
Thanks for all working hard to make a great eCS V2 GA. Despite the problems we could have, a bypass is ussualy found a correction effective quickly after.
The major difference between installing eCS againt windows is that most of PC's or laptop have windows installed when you buy it while eCS has to be installed by the end user. Now, think about selling most PC's with a pre'installed eCS, do you think end-user are going to have much problems ? No I don't think and probably less than using the most popular OS.
Well V2.0 GA is now annonced to be quickly available and this is the best news from the latest months.
Remy 

Saijin_Naib

I seriously doubt having eCS pre-installed would yield LESS problems for the end user than Windows.

Printing? Scanning? AIM? MSN? Webcameras? Firewire? Wireless?

Be serious.

CDRWSel

Realy,
Are you gong to us Firewire ? I doubt because eSATA is much faster and better (Firewire is now old)
Wireless ? ( it's usage is probably dropping down in the next year due to bad humain heath effects )
MSN ( I use Mercury 1.9 and may be v2 can be ported to eCS but a new java version may be a good idea )
Printing and scanning ? yes sure but now, you can scan on flash cards (SD card...) directly plugged into a card reader availble in printer/scanner devices. As I could read, printer drivers is going to be improved.   
Videocam ? may be.
But as I wrote it, Wireless, MSN and videocam are going to be part of intitial installation because more and more PC's and laptop have these options installed.
I think it would be better to have a 3G pccard support for internet while "CPL" is a better solution for home connections.

Saijin_Naib

Yes, I use firewire for video production. It is important.