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Need to boot from floppy - system boots from hdd instead

Started by ulros, 2009.10.26, 12:54:34

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ulros

Hi all,

I have the following problem:

I need to boot from a floppy (any OS is welcome) towipe the harddisk.
The PC is starting the boot sequence, checking the flopp and than switches over to the harddisk and is continuing to boot from the harddisk.

I have to wipe the disk so the important thing is to have accesss to the disk to delete it. After the boot from hdd the PC crashes, I can't access - need to reboot.

I have a third party floppy disk whis is able to pass by the hdd boot. It continues to boot from the floppy. The problem is that with the program on this fdd I can't wipe the hdd.

I know that the OS/2 on the machine seems to have a special bootsector, the fdd seems to have a copy of this bootsector to be able to boot from the floppy.

I already tried every Linux on boot disk I could find but the same problem for all. It  checks the floppy and passes to the hdd.

I know that the third party floppy is using Knoppix Linux to boot.

Does anyone has an idea how to copy the boot sector to boot from another Knoppix floppy or any other idea so that I can boot from the fdd?

Any hint is welcome!

Kind regards
Ulros

ivan

It sounds as if you have a dud floppy drive - too much crud inside.

Now the main question - what exactly are you trying to do?  You say you want to wipe the hard disk - do you mean wipe as in removing every bit of data and setting everything to zero or something else?

It would also be a help if you gave a little more information about the system.  If the machine can be set to boot from CD (set in bios) then there are several ISOs available on the net that will allow wiping a hard disk to mil specs.

If the problem you have is just not being able to boot the hard disk because of some fault then we need to know exactly what OS is there and what error messages, if any, appear on the screen.

ulros

Hi and thank you for your reply!

Here some details:

The PC is inside an Automated Teller Machine coming from NCR. I need to delete the data on the hard disk because we want to resell the machines. I have disassembled the PC from the ATM so I can extract the disk and connect it via an external USB diskbox. I can also connect a CD ROM to the PC and try to boot from CD to delete the data.

BUT

I need a solution where the techs can enter a diskette that boots and provides a program that wipes (overwrites) the harddisk. Because it would take too much time to get the PC out of the ATM. The PC does not have neither USB slot nor CD ROM.

The version of the OS is OS/2 Version 3

When I try to boot the diskette is recognized (I altered the BIOS settings that the disk will be 1st boot device that is working) the disk starts to work (green lamp is indicating that) and then the boot sequence is switching to the hard disk and it will boot from the hard disk.
I think this is a security question because it is an ATM.

We have a floppy disk that can do some diagnostic work with these NCR ATMs and this diskette IS booting without problems. So the question could be: What is the modification on that boot disk that has been made to enable it to boot the floppy.

This program does not help do delete the hard disk so I can not use it for this task.

So what could be done to create a floppy that is able to boot, MS-DOS would do it because with that I could use a wipe program to do the job.

Do you have any idea? The program on the disk the disk that can boot is written in C++ and the bootloader is coming from Knoppix (this is a live linux).

If you need further details do not hgesitate to ask :-)

Ulros

Pete

Hi Ulros

Is the diskette that does boot limited to running the diagnostics?

Just wondering if you can exit the diags and simply run fdisk against the hard drive to delete existing partitions.

Regards

Pete

ulros

Hi Pete,

it's simply running the diags, I can't exit it.

Ulros

ulros

Hi all,

it seems that the BIOS has been modified to check something on the floppy disk.
Has anybody an idea how I can copy the bootsector of the floppy which is able to boot to another diskette? It is a Linux system. I want to be able to boot aand then I want to execute a program.

regards
Ulros

ivan

Hi Ulros,

Now I know what you are trying to do I might be able to help.

First off, do a diskcopy of the floppy you have that boots then remove all the diagnostics programs on the copy.  It should then just boot to an A: prompt.  Once you get to that there should be enough space on the floppy to put a disk wipe program.

The only thing that I don't know is what OS the floppy uses - if you could give a dir listing we should be able to advise more.

Radek

It must be either the BIOS or the diskette who is guilty. And it can be the security issue. It is possible that your (special) BIOS allows setting it to diskette as a primary boot device but the setting is ignored in the end. It can be the program on the diskette, which - once it gets control - performs a warm reboot from the HD. I can propose the following:

(1) First check whether you can boot from a diskette at all. A lot of bootable floppies and CDs can be found at http://bootdisk.com Download, for example, DOS 5, create a bootable floppy and try. You will need a winblows machine at hand, the boot images are packed as winblows apps.

If you succeed with DOS 5 diskette then you are done. The diskette contains FDISK, which is able to delete any partition in the HD, no matter which FS the partition contains. Ignore senseless partition sizes (DOS 5 is rather diluvial now  ;D ) and go on deleting. The HD gets cleansed correctly even if the partition data will not be recognized okay.

If you can boot from a CD then there is gParted ISO. For example, http://www.icewalkers.com/Linux/Software/526550/GParted-livecd.html It's a linux FDISK, which is able to delete HD partitions as well.

ivan

Radek,
Ulros has said he has the diagnostics floppy that will boot while others will not.  It appears there is some bios setting that requires a special floppy setup that will allow booting from floppy - not correct floppy no floppy boot.  This is reasonable as the machines are ATMs.

The actual wiping of the hard disk is simple when you can boot from a floppy.  The problem is the constraints imposed by the systems in question.

Radek

It's worse - if the BIOS checks the contents of the diskette then it can be supposed to check the contents of the HD as well ... Therefore, questions are asked:

(1) Is it possible to extract the HD from the ATM?
(2) Is it possible to attach the HD to another comp?
(3) Is it possible to create a backup of the HD partitions? The HD can be encrypted.

I would give up without the backup because I wouldn't want to risk that the ATM has started for the last time just before I meddled with the HD contents. Even with the backup I am running certain risk that I won't be able to restore the contents of the HD when something will go wrong  :-\

As far as the diskette is concerned, I would suppose that the check will not go beyond the root directory. If the diskette is a plain FAT12 then any DOS disk editor would help, for example Norton Disk Doctor from Norton Utilities. The boot sector is Track 0, Sector 0 on the diskette so that a small DOS program making a few int 13h calls should do the trick. As far as the linux machine is concerned, IMO DosBox should allow you physical access to the diskette. You should be able to run ndd.exe on the diskette from DosBox.

RobertM

You may wish to try dfSee:

http://www.dfsee.com/dfsee/download.php

They have floppy images for some of the older versions (the older versions should work fine on such hardware) as well as DOS/Linux utilities that you may be able to incorporate into a DOS/Linux bootable floppy.

From there, you can use one of the disk wipe utilities (including, if I am remembering the program correctly, it's multi-wipe option - forget what it is labelled as, but it does a triple wipe on the drive).

Hope that helps,
Robert


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ulros

Hi all,

thanks for the answers.
I found on the net that NCR is holding a patent for the protection of the ATM against non authorized software installation. So it is for sure that the modified BIOS will check if the floppy is authorized by NCR or not.

Appearently all non NCR floppies are NOT authorized and thus won't boot.

I have tried nearly everything I could find, I am missing the OS/2 Warp floppies becaus I have not kept my Warp CD. So if anyone could tell me how I could get the 2 boot disks as image that would be nice. Anyhow I do not have much hope that this would work.

Does anybody has an ideay how I could stop the disk with the diag soft from booting directly into the diag soft? It is booting a Knoppix Linux (I can see the classical "booting" on the screen and then it is directly starting the diag soft. I would like to cut off this command that starts the diag soft. Actually I am preparing an old Wincor-Nixdord PC with Knoppix to have a closer look at the diskette. And yes, the Wincor ATM PC let's me install Linux on its hard disk  ;)

So it would be nice to have some new ideas concerning the diag disk  ;D

Regards
Ulros

warpcafe

Hi,

I'm just wondering... when you say you want to sell these boxes - as WHAT you want to sell them? ATMs?
Then you may risk the whole thing won't work any more once the hard disk was flushed. Or is it more like a "Kiosk" kind of thing you want the buyers to make out of it?

Regarding your problems: Any way of simply "removing" the floppy from the configuration by BIOS setup so it won't be accessed at all? The last idea I have is to leave the machines parts all together like they are, but simply attach the hard drive by cable to another machine put aside (without actually removing it). Is that possible? I mean - open the case and access the drive without removing it?

HTH,
Thomas
"It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
By definition, there are already enough people to do that"
- G.H. Hardy

ulros

Hi,

they will be sold "as is" without any software at all.

The only interesting solution to save the maximum of time is a diskette solution.
I will try to have a closer look at this diag diskette I think.

Best regards
Ulros