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RPM packager

Started by minou, 2011.08.28, 07:35:09

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Do you want an RPM/YUM implementation for OS/2 that uses the Unix/Linux "Filesystem Hierarchy Standard" (/home, /var, /usr, /etc..)?

Yes
14 (41.2%)
No
18 (52.9%)
I don't know
2 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 0

CDRWSel

#105
dmik

I used RPM/YUM several times and removed it due all previous objection. I wrote warpin package too. About 60MB on a SSD disk is very big just for installation/updates ! (of course, you comments about some path put on ramdisk will prevent unnecessary write operation but it will not free space on the SSD for other programs with need to write on it. Garanty of enough free space on SSD is garanty of long working disk)                

1/ I do drag/drop of many programs and not only some trial programs. OS/2 user since OS/2 2.1

2/ When I read "If you want to install Java, you type |yum search java|"  Is this End user oriented ? surely not while End-user means "click on an icon" like "eCo Market"

As I wrote, RPM/YUM could be interesting when installed on a server and for me, it isn't for home user or single workstation.

About portableApps, I use it since several time and configured several friends USB key and made my window application as portableapps. Do you use it ?

Now, if you try go backward into this thread, may be you have the same errors as I have:

8: Undefined offset: 0
File : /home/os2worldcom/httpd/html/components/com_smf/smf.class.php
Line: 449
...

CDRWSel

What should be the correct approach of a developer ?

- Propose an idea and check if it is welcome for end-users
- Provide a draft and check what's ok or not
- Take all End-users comments and change the product to make it conform and desirable
- End-user can have great idea and it is worth to add them into the project 
- Don't critic end-user
- It is the end-user which better know what is good for him
- The end-user is the one which is going to buy and use the product

I know a specific windows programs, developers tried to impose they solution (they know what is good, end-users do not), add automatic update and later blocked programs to work if no web connection and finally, they took user system information (ip@, os version etc...) and finally, as soon the hardware and windows changed, the tool no more worked and through the web connection, a warning message was issued about license violation ! Today, the product is at his end and no more development exist... The security was impacted here ? web connection ! user system information taken etc...

Remember, the decider is the End-user and not the developer. The problem with RPM/YUM is that lot of time was spent on porting RPM/YUM without asking end-user if it would be ok for all. This could explain why it is tried to impose it despite many reject !

melf

FYI! As Remy and others have pointed out and you all see for yourselves, there is problems with forum threads. I know that Martin is working on a migration to a new platform, but this may take its time. To reach earlier pages in this thread please enter www.os2world.com/forum in your address field to go straight to the forum (this way should work). You'll find this thread under "Setup & Installation". We are sorry for the inconvenience.
/Mikael

gamba

Quote from: ivan on 2011.09.04, 01:12:40

...

So far, apart from Java6, QT4 and those applications based on it, Paul and Ko Myung-Hun have been the people that have ported practical programs - Scribus, rsync, gcc v4.x.x and many utilities, vlc, k movie player etc, none of which mess with our boot drive image or standard directory structure. 

...


Ever tried CUPS? It works very well but I was never able to install it out of root. Obviously, dmik is talking about complex software.

Bye
Gabriele

dmik

#109
CDRWSel, yes, bootstrapping RPM takes about 60MB. But this includes Posix coreutils besides RPM itself plus some system DLLs needed by all programs. It's a bunch of useful command line tools which we have to provide because the OS lacks them.

Regarding DnD. I already mentioned that you can't DnD programs which need a specific environment that depends on their location (PATH/LIBPATH/WPS). Besides, it is not fully clear why you need keeping to DnD your programs around. Possible answers (I'm guessing since you are not specific):

1. To maintain your own order of things, as lewhoo already mentioned here. My question: why dragging & dropping the WPS objects of programs instead is not enough for you?
2. To be able to easily transfer the program from one PC to another. Our answer: with RPM you don't need to do such manual transfers. If you still want it for some reason (you are in the forest with no Internet connection), you can take the raw .rpm file and install it. The raw .rpm file is much like the .wpi file. The YUM/RPM GUI will include a simple interface to install it by double click w/o the command line.
3. To backup. Our answer: you don't need to backup software with RPM. You may easily recreate the exact installation of your software with a single command (mouse click, once GUI is ready).
4. To optimize hard disk usage. Our answer: this is not a user-level task. Hard disks are extremely cheap nowadays, just buy a bigger one and copy your OS/2 over to it. If you want to use the bloody expensive SSD gear, you want something unusual and you have to learn how you can optimize FHS and things for it. The cost of maintaining all software in the world easily relocatable on OS/2 is orders of magnitude higher than you could pay for that.
4. I ran out of ideas here. Feel free to add something.

The command line interface of yum is very well user-oriented.

Regarding your question about portable apps, no I don't use them since I don't need it. And I don't know people around me that would use them, frankly. There are very few cases where it would be necessary. In either case, creating an USB stick with the portable application on it has nothing to do with RPM. The level of work it requires depends on the software you want to make portable. RPM can add more work here, but since it is not something needed very often, we don't care too much about that.

What you say about the developer's approach is true (with a few obvious exceptions) but only when it comes to the UI (*user* interface). Everything else is none of the user's business. What you say about the stupid Windows Update system has nothing to do with RPM. Nothing.

CDRWSel

SSD is no more something unusual and it become more and more current here and specialy into netbooks !

Today, SSD has many advantages (ans some inconveniences) like High speed, low temperature, low power need, no vibration, better chock resistance etc...

This is why use of older FHS + RPM/YUM and its structure is again not a good idea because this was developped using older HD. It looks like you try to impose something old as a revolution !

Better would be to create something new using some part of the RPM/YUM idea but making it like a revolution program integrating SSD requirements (auto optimizing SSD usage and not left the end-user to tune his configuration him self) and of course End-user option to have they program where they would like including an FHS structure for those making this choice. E.g. with 4 partitions, you could have eCS under one partition and productions programs like openoffice (what about libreoffice on eCS ?) on a second partition and some beta programs or games or user programs under a fird partition. The 4th partition could have datas on it etc...

Imagine the satisfaction if a tool like this could be available, other OSes would like buy you a license to use it !

aschn

Quote from: CDRWSel on 2011.09.05, 23:57:07
auto optimizing SSD usage

Remy, are you sure you weren't getting off-topic?

(I really don't want an installer to do tasks like that.)

--
Andreas Schnellbacher

dmik

CDRWSel, I already told you that FHS suits the needs of optimizing SSD usage better than anything else. No need in revolution, just map /home, /var and /tmp out of SSD (actually, you can already do it in eCS with the path rewriter tool) and you will get what you describe as satisfaction. RPM is not involved here at all.

CDRWSel

aschn

Well, I think not having used the right expression and what I mean with is propose and use specific path needing lot of write operation by the product (e.g. temporary path.. ) on not SSD disk if available (of course, end-user should have hand of this)

For easy use, GUI should be able to do what's needed and command line mode should only be a special mode reserved for expert user.

Fahrvenugen

Quote from: dmik on 2011.09.05, 03:30:22

It was never possible to move the program to a different location with drag & drop on OS/2 (except very trivial programs that don't have entries in config.sys and don't have WPS objects).


I disagree -  I drag and drop entire OS/2 based apps all the time and rarely have a difficulty.  This is one of the features of OS/2 that sets it apart from  other operating systems - it easily allows you to do this - move around either data files or entire apps without breaking things (and it even updates your shadows and objects properly) - all due to the OO technology built into the system and WPS.

Admittedly it doesn't work as easily on ported apps - mostly because ported apps often rely on configuration files which define the app locations.  In those cases, it not only requires drag and drop of the app, but also updating the config file(s).









ivan

Dmik,
60 MB for an installer - you have to be joking - Warpin is less than 8MB.  As for command line utilities - this is OS/2 a GUI interface remember.  You may be 'into' the command line but most users are not.

This, coupled with the 'I'm the developer and I know what you want' attitude is pointing this project in the direction of it being a developer ego trip or vanity project - I'm doing it because I can.

If you were blowing your trumpet and saying 'I have a working alpha version of LibreOffice 3.3', then I think everyone would be cheering you on, but you're not and we're not.

You said that one of your aims was to make OS/2 more relevant.  If that is the case you have the cart before the horse.  What is needed are things like LibreOffice, TurboCASH, ARCAD, Stellarium, Sweet Home 3d, Gimp, Google Earth, ABBY FineReader Engine, VirtualBox as well as those we already have ported.  Those are the type of applications that will rejuvenate OS/2 in the business environment - not a fancy installer.

I have given much thought about posting this but in the end decided to do so because here we have a testing process in which we throw every objection we can think of at a project and if it survives that we let it continue and see how it develops.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Yes Gabriele I have but not on the boot drive - see the readme with cups:
Limitations:
CUPS must currently be installed in the root directory of a drive, ie \cups

It works quite happily from drive I on my teat machine.       

ivan

dmik

Quote from: Fahrvenugen on 2011.09.06, 19:14:29
I disagree -  I drag and drop entire OS/2 based apps all the time and rarely have a difficulty.  This is one of the features of OS/2 that sets it apart from  other operating systems - it easily allows you to do this - move around either data files or entire apps without breaking things (and it even updates your shadows and objects properly) - all due to the OO technology built into the system and WPS.

We do not speak about WPS here, we speak about moving applications from one folder to another on the hard disk.

ivan, the joke here must be your concern about the installer size. RPM itself is only several MB. The rest is Posix core utilities and libraries needed for many other software. Counting them together has as much sense as counting together WarpIn and all DLLs in \OS2\DLL.

"'I'm the developer and I know what you want" -- first, neither me, nor other devs said that, so please don't refer to it. Second, now we do know what you want indeed, after you have told us (if you were not lying, of course). Third, we do know what some other users want because they told us too. Fourth, we do know what we need to do on the system level in order to deliver software of a certain quality. We know this better than an average user not because we're just cool but because this is our job and we have experience. And, BTW, refusing to trust the developer in this area may leave you with no chances to ever have LibreOffice 3.3 and other things you listed. Just so that you thought of that too. Our work is partly sponsored by the community and we feel great responsibility before it for what we do. But to do our best we should be trusted.

Saying more on that would be off topic here, so if you want to continue this discussion, feel free to start another thread. Regarding the test process, this is part of the idea, keep throwing. But please don't repeat the same thing over and over again -) It just wastes your and our time. Thank you for understanding.

CDRWSel

#117
dmik
About drag and drop, Irvan is correct but you aren't
You wrote:"We do not speak about WPS here" of course I do and if you didn't understand it, then you are unable to understand us ! How are you going to make you application drad/drop portable (of course WPS) ?

Of course you suggested and wrote that you are the developer and know better as end-user what is better for them ! and again you wrote it in this way "refusing to trust the developer in this area may leave you with no chances to ever have LibreOffice 3.3 and other things you listed" once again, Irvan has right

Are you serious when you wrote "Counting them together has as much sense as counting together WarpIn and all DLLs in \OS2\DLL" ? may be you don't know there is a ecs\dll path very usefull to put all dll's under it like I do by default. What is the sense to add new path for dll while 2 path already exist ? none. Many programs are able to perfectly work with DLL under the program path (of course, these dll should be program specific dll to prevent mixed dll level for which ecs\dll or os2\dll path are good)    

You wrote that not going in the way you would like dictate us will make Libreoffice not work !
I hope it is a joke or just explain how portableapps could install libreoffice 3.4.2 without using your tool ? nor using fhs structure ? and it works perfectly and has great success despite it is windows ! (Oh, right, you don't know how portableapps works and not interested how they do because they is no rpm/yum like process in it ! but, may be you could have a look on the process they developed to easy package installed application into a portable application). The arguments you are using are unacceptable.

More interesting is they new beta interface which allow to check for programs update. One click, it returns then all installed application which have been update and propose to make the update or (each one could be unselected). Click yes and all programs are auto-updated... This all function uses very litle space on the usb key, try it out and may be you'll change you mind and gives you good idea for a realy new,small and best update tools on the world !
   
Please come down on earth....  ;D

dmik

#118
CDRWSel, sorry but it is really hard to understand you because your English is very bad and it makes your words often contain no sense. WPS objects are completely unrelated to FHS, you will still be able to drag'n'drop them, even if the application is installed with RPM. More over, this is what we suggest you to do instead of taking care about real directories on your hard disk.

I am absolutely serious when I write something here. It looks like you also have problems with reading English, not only with writing. Either you do something with it (ask somebody to translate what I write and what you want to write), or I will not be able to continue the discussion with you. Sorry again.

I would like to add a word about dictating though (as this part of your speech I understood). Stop saying lies please. We do not dictate, we provide alternatives. For those people who needs the software we port and supports our work we will be providing two formats: ZIP and RPM. This will give people a plenty of choices: plain old ZIP for managing their own carefully cooked layouts or for creating portable applications, and RPM for those who wants all the dirty work done for them. If your only concern with RPM is the lack of GUI, you should better support us so that the GUI appears faster (there will be a prototype very soon to let you know how it will look and feel).

If you just want ZIP with the GUI interface (this is what WarpIn, given its limitations, effectively is) this is not what we can currently offer you, because it will only cause failed installations and nothing more. We know that, we have a lot of experience with Qt4 and other programs we distributed as WPI. Sorry about that.

CDRWSel

Now, without argument, you decided to attack my poor English l  Shame on you   

I know my English is not perfect but most user here could understand what I wrote or mean me ! You are really insincere and your ego is to high.

I promote and did more for eCS, I paid Openoffice support agreement and you convict me today to stop pay for something I don't want and never was announced going this way on mensys link. I developed applications for eCS and I did it with end-user feedback and suggestions to satisfy they need...

Yes, I prefer stop talking with you.I prefer use my time in development.