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Improvement of the Bounty System

Started by kim, 2008.03.25, 17:12:11

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saborion2

     
Re: Improvement of the Bounty System

Have the following been considered if the OS/2 World Foundation it to be truly run as a "business entity" and with particular reference to the "Bounty System"!

1. The Financial Management.

2. The Economic Management.

3. The Technical Management.

Just my two cents (skill set) from previous working experiences.  ;)


kim

Well, about OS2 WF - we're are still in the starting process to get everything started up when it comes banking, etc. When it comes to financial and economic tasks we're obligated to follow the laws that apply to us - so in short - yes.

While speaking of different processes it, might in current phase sound a bit overkill to talk about implementation of enterprise-, risk-, information-, data-, technical management. But, yes, there are aspects as well there that we need to think about and already doing.

saborion2

Quote from: Andi710 on 2008.03.27, 04:24:30
Quote from: kimhav on 2008.03.25, 17:12:11
Above is a suggestion that has been made and I'm sure that there are several other ways that we can improve the bounty system; but we need you to post the thoughts and ideas - now is the time and not tomorrow! :-)

I would like to be able to put a deadline on the bounty (with an option to extend it in case something moved into the right direction (or the sponsor believes it is still worthwhile to keep the bounty up)). I have quite some money invested in several projects and see only very little (=no) development with some of these (truecrypt for instance). Feels kind of uncomfortable to have a lot of sunk money when it could be used for better (more active) projects ) - or to pay my rent ;o)

Just to repeat what was said by "Andi710"...
Quote

Above is a suggestion that has been made and I'm sure that there are several other ways that we can improve the bounty system; but we need you to post the thoughts and ideas - now is the time and not tomorrow!


Are there any recent developments with regards to the points mentioned/suggestions made by both "kimhav" and "Andi710" with regards to improvements to the OS/2 World Foundation's Bounty System?

Kindest regards.

SAB

kim

On the last board meeting that we had last week we talked through the different suggestions that have been made; but the two major suggestion to improve the system and the flexibility of it are the following:

1) Ask developers for a bounty bid what it would take them to commit  develop and full fill a bounty. By this we would hopefully get a valid price tag on the bounty that should make developers interested of a project.

2) Commit to sponsor a bounty without having to pre-pay the sponsor amount directly. This will be done when the bounty is full filled and every body agrees that the bounty should be paid to the developer. This would hopefully make people to sponsor more projects.

Regarding payments we're currently today using PayPal. But in a week or two we will be able to have people to wire the funds directly to bank account and by that avoiding PayPal. This solution should at least be highly cost effective within EC, so we still need to figure out how to handle transactions from outside EC - meaning keeping the costs as low as possible.


Saijin_Naib

I like using Paypal for myself. It gives me protection that Bank Wire does not give. It also doesnt really cost me anything as far as I know. Maybe have both Bank and Paypal be payment options?

kim

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2008.04.29, 14:29:16I like using Paypal for myself. It gives me protection that Bank Wire does not give. It also doesnt really cost me anything as far as I know. Maybe have both Bank and Paypal be payment options?

Both option will exist; so no worry. Making bank transfer from the States to a bank account within EC cost way to much and will make the money disappear in fees. A third option has also been proposed and that is to involve MenSys in the Netherlands to make use of their possibility to process credit cards. Clearly something that we will look into.

But, what I really would like some input on is possibility of making a bid on a bounty by developers and as well the option of committing to make payment for an bounty. As it works now, OS2 WF acts as a escrow between the sponsor and developer. The initial ideas was to guarantee that the developer gets the bounty money. But, we clearly needs to get more sponsors and increase the amounts for the bounties.

Paul Smedley

Quote from: kimhav on 2008.04.29, 11:24:58
On the last board meeting that we had last week we talked through the different suggestions that have been made; but the two major suggestion to improve the system and the flexibility of it are the following:

1) Ask developers for a bounty bid what it would take them to commit  develop and full fill a bounty. By this we would hopefully get a valid price tag on the bounty that should make developers interested of a project.

2) Commit to sponsor a bounty without having to pre-pay the sponsor amount directly. This will be done when the bounty is full filled and every body agrees that the bounty should be paid to the developer. This would hopefully make people to sponsor more projects.

Some comments:
1) For me at least -this would make no difference.  I have a day job that consumes a lot of hours, and it's also often hard to judge how long something may take and hence what the bounty is 'worth'.  It could also unfairly raise the expectations of the sponsors.  Ie a developer says for $200 I'll make xxx work.  Bounty reaches that level and people want it right away, but to to time constraints it's not possible.

2) The big problem I see is that there will be people (hopefully a minority) that will promise $$$ and never be in a position to actually deliver.  Perhaps a deposit should have to be paid to at least show some level of commitment? Otherwise it's too easy to promise with no commitment.

Just my 0.02 worth...

abwillis

Quote from: Paul Smedley on 2008.04.30, 06:00:50
Quote from: kimhav on 2008.04.29, 11:24:58
On the last board meeting that we had last week we talked through the different suggestions that have been made; but the two major suggestion to improve the system and the flexibility of it are the following:

1) Ask developers for a bounty bid what it would take them to commit  develop and full fill a bounty. By this we would hopefully get a valid price tag on the bounty that should make developers interested of a project.

2) Commit to sponsor a bounty without having to pre-pay the sponsor amount directly. This will be done when the bounty is full filled and every body agrees that the bounty should be paid to the developer. This would hopefully make people to sponsor more projects.

Some comments:
1) For me at least -this would make no difference.  I have a day job that consumes a lot of hours, and it's also often hard to judge how long something may take and hence what the bounty is 'worth'.  It could also unfairly raise the expectations of the sponsors.  Ie a developer says for $200 I'll make xxx work.  Bounty reaches that level and people want it right away, but to to time constraints it's not possible.

2) The big problem I see is that there will be people (hopefully a minority) that will promise $$$ and never be in a position to actually deliver.  Perhaps a deposit should have to be paid to at least show some level of commitment? Otherwise it's too easy to promise with no commitment.

Just my 0.02 worth...
I would agree with Paul's assessment. 
1) I see why the desire for the approximate 'worth' would be desirable but I am not sure there is a way to overcome the expectations then (as that is the main reason for setting it). 
2)  For instance, today I have the money to commit to project X but it is then some months before it is completed and by that time I have hit hard times and am no longer in a position to fulfill the commitment.  Possibly a better option is, if the bounty exists for some period of time without any visible progress then the funds could be shifted to another project (i.e. I believe there is more than one Java bounty - one for Java 6 and one for GNU Java - if one were to suddenly start showing signs of life then someone sponsoring the other might wish to transfer from the one not showing any signs of life to the other in order to increase the incentive) or maybe there is just no longer any need for from the sponsor for some project Y but project L would be useful.

RobertM


Paul, excellent points!




saborion2, the bounty system does not work that way. Bounties are NOT paid until the project is completed meeting all of the guidelines and reviewed to ensure such. Also, there is no way (nor is any planned) to allow potential bounty candidates to talk directly to bounty sponsors, as this may allow them to circumvent the bounty process for a product they never release. The possible worth of such a bounty can be suggested in it's supporting thread - but that does not mean that worth will be assigned to the bounty - nor does it mean that the bounty will ever reach that amount.

In numerous cases, the bounty winners are receiving a token amount of what their efforts are worth. If you visit Paul Smedley's Pages, you will see dozens of projects he is active in - many of which we cannot live without (such as MySQL, PHP, ffMPEG, cURL, VirtualBox, Samba, Ghostscript, Perl, Gnash, CUPS, PostgreSQL, Python, WGet, Apache - to name a few) - yet he has only recieved bounties for few of them - and the amounts have usually been more "tokens of appreciation" than "payment for what his efforts were worth"


In some cases, we have been lucky to have dedicated programmers like Paul, who have actually completed and released the work to everyone - and then been rewarded with the bounty, as opposed to the method you are alluding to of seeing a bounty and getting paid for it to do the work (which will not happen). Bounties (in part - or in full) are not paid until the work is complete and reviewed and determined to be meeting the bounty requirements.


In addition, though not stipulated in the bounties themselves, the following additional requirements also apply: If the software is a port, the "porter" must have the rights to do both the port and the release. Inotherwords, as a for instance, when I was in contact with IBM and writing various bits of code, IBM provided me with source that I could incorporate and use in my applications - as well as ones I could not.

So, as another for instance, if IBM provided a business partner with code to allow them to port it and release it (or make it available to IBM for release), that would qualify when the other aspects of the bounty were released.

BUT, if IBM provided that code to a Business Partner to use for their own internal projects or a specific client list (such as "please port this for Customer A/Project A, who needs it") it would NOT qualify for a bounty - even if all other criteria were met, as any release/usage other than in the example would violate contracts, copyrights and other IP laws. OS2WF will not pay out a bounty to assist someone in the commission of a crime.

Another scenario that would not qualify is if someone was provided (or bought or acquired or whatever) a copy of a certain piece of software and "hacked" it, recompiled it (without permission) or otherwise modified it to run on OS/2 - which again, even if it met the other bounty criteria, would not be eligible for the same reasons as the previous point.


I hope that answers your questions... if not let us know.

Robert




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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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RobertM

Quote from: abwillis on 2008.04.30, 07:23:55
...Possibly a better option is, if the bounty exists for some period of time without any visible progress then the funds could be shifted to another project (i.e. I believe there is more than one Java bounty - one for Java 6 and one for GNU Java - if one were to suddenly start showing signs of life then someone sponsoring the other might wish to transfer from the one not showing any signs of life to the other in order to increase the incentive) or maybe there is just no longer any need for from the sponsor for some project Y but project L would be useful.


Hi abwillis,

There have already been occassions similar to that. Any forum member can make such a suggestion in the appropriate bounty threads. We have already had a couple bounties that have been rolled together - or inactive bounties that have been moved to more relevant bounties of the same purpose (ie: similar to your example).

Robert


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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kim

#25
May I suggest that we split this thread to keep the original topic intact?

Update: Topic has been split and everything that was hopefully based on good intention but got OT has been moved to this new thread. Postings that go way off topic, will be deleted to keep the thread intact.