Author Topic: driver trouble with Warp 3  (Read 19018 times)

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 409
  • -Receive: 79
  • Posts: 2409
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 12:38:51 am »
I wanted to try the fun too.

1) I installed Warp 3 (Blue) from the diskettes on VirtualBox.
2) Installed Fixpack 44
3) Installed SNAP Video drivers after that.

It boot and looked pretty good, but the mouse pointer broke.

4) I installed VBOXMOUSE.SYS and it get back working.

Nice.... there it goes a picture of the two parrots fighting to death :)
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Fahrvenugen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 7
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 07:39:13 am »
Hi Mathais,

I'm beginning to suspect that IBM put out a version with a few extras for what you've got there.  My thinking is that for XR?3000 on syslevel.os2 and syslevel.mpm normally means you've got the original OS/2 Warp (non-connect) version (see the previous CSD level below).

Quote
C:\OS2\INSTALL\SYSLEVEL.OS2
IBM OS/2 Operating System
Version 3.00 Component ID 562260100
Type W
Current CSD-Level: XRGW040
Previous CSD-Level: XRG3000
 
C:\MMOS2\INSTALL\SYSLEVEL.MPM
IBM Multimedia Presentation Manager/2
Version 3.00 Component ID 562137400
Current CSD-Level: XRGW040
Previous CSD-Level: XRG3000

However I also note that you have a couple of items that normally only get installed if you've got the Warp Connect or Warp Server version, specifically:


Quote
C:\MPTN\SYSLEVEL.MPT
IBM OS/2 TCP/IP Stack
Version 5.10 Component ID 5639B1700
Current CSD-Level: WR08400
Previous CSD-Level: WR08210

C:\IBMCOM\SYSLEVEL.TRP
IBM OS/2 LAN Adapter and Protocol Support
Version 5.10 Component ID 5639A5700
Current CSD-Level: WR08400
Previous CSD-Level: WR08210

C:\MPTN\SYSLEVEL.DHC
IBM OS/2 Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol Services
Version 4.00 Component ID 562290901
Current CSD-Level: WR08400
Previous CSD-Level: WR08210

Normally these show up on the Connect version after you've installed MPTS, although the version of the "IBM OS/2 LAN Adapter and Protocol Support" is the version that was in Warp Server (the version of Warp Server built on top of Warp 3).  It isn't all that big a deal though - it'll all work together.


Have a look at your install CD and see if you've got folder:

\cid\img\tcpip

or

\cid\img\tcpapps

(something to do with tcp in the cid\img folder on the install CD).

If you do have this, then in there you should find an install .exe file, this will install the full TCP/IP stack, as opposed to the Internet Access Kit you found in the bonuspack. Go ahead and install that version of TCP/IP, it should have a full stack in it.

Here's a little background of what's going on (history lesson time!).  At the time that Warp 3 was released, IBM put out Warp with the Bonuspack, which included stuff like the internet access kit, IBM Works, that software to access Compuserve, and a few other items.  The internet access kit in the Bonuspack was based on an older version of TCP/IP - Version 2.0 which had been developed for the older OS/2 version 2.x.  But it wasn't the full stack - it was a more crippled version - missing some stuff, and limited to only accessing the internet via dialup modem.  As a side note, Warp 3 at the time also had a flaky-buggy serial port driver which worked on some modems / ports, but not on others.  This led in part to the popularity of Ray Gwinn's SIO driver (which always seemed to work), and also added to some of the early complaints about OS/2 Warp being difficult to install and not always working properly with hardware, but that's a different story.

Fast forward a month or two from the initial release and IBM releases Warp 3 Connect, and then Warp Server (and eventually Warp Server Advanced).  Warp 3 Connect was Warp 3 with the LAN stuff added (MPTS, IBM Peer, TCP/IP).  IBM released it with the newer TCP/IP 3.0 (which contained everything in the Internet Access Kit, plus a bunch of other stuff) and MPTS to be able to communicate over network cards.  However (in its infinite wisdom of wanting to make things simpler maybe?) IBM continued to include in the box the same exact Bonuspack that was in the earlier (non-connect) version of Warp 3.    This meant that you could install the newer (and better) TCP/IP Version 3 (which came with the Connect stuff) or you could install the older "Internet Access Kit" from the Bonuspack.

As for the client desktop version of Warp, even though they released a few updated versions of Warp 3, they didn't actually remove the Internet Access Kit from the Bonuspack until the release of Warp 4.

*end of history lesson*

Anyways, you should be okay installing the 32 bit MPTS as outlined in the earlier message, it includes the base 32 bit tcp/ip stuff to at least get network connectivity.   I know there are versions of firefox which will run on Warp 3, although I can't recall what the latest one is that'll run.  For Firefox you will need the 32 bit TCP/IP stack.

Or you can install the 16 bit MPTS - with the 16 bit version you'll for sure be able to run the old Netcape Communicator 4.61, although I'm not sure if there are any websites which will still work with that.

-Fahrvenugen
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 08:19:35 am by Fahrvenugen »

Dave Yeo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 149
  • Posts: 2170
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 09:37:55 am »
I know there are versions of firefox which will run on Warp 3, although I can't recall what the latest one is that'll run.  For Firefox you will need the 32 bit TCP/IP stack.

Or you can install the 16 bit MPTS - with the 16 bit version you'll for sure be able to run the old Netcape Communicator 4.61, although I'm not sure if there are any websites which will still work with that.

-Fahrvenugen

Firefox etc were built against the 16bit stack until partway through 10.0.xESR. It may have been broken for my builds as my environment was questionable for pulling in the 16 bit stuff.
The problem is that libc broke on Warp 3 sometime back so libc06.dll will work and IIRC libc061.dll but all newer ones are broken on Warp V3 and Firefox hasn't been built with such an early libc for a long time. Maybe early 3.5 or likely older. Binaries should be on mozilla.org.
This is also a problem with a lot of other ported software, does libc work on V3?
BTW 4os2 will give tab completion, search Hobbes

Andi B.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 21
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 11:33:54 am »
Quote
Whoa, an auto-installer would be convenient indeed! ...
I would not suggest you to try out now os2mt. The picture on the linked site shows outdated packages and internet addresses which dose not exist anymore. Not sure if this utility works for the base components thought. Didn't try it by myself since a very long time...

Quote
...as Warp 3 appears to lack file name auto-complete via the TAB key, which I grew used to over the years.... *g*
You can try 4os2 - http://4os2.netlabs.org/en/site/index.xml. It still should work with Warp3. But I didn't test the latest releases as I do not have a W3 installation anymore. Anyone else tested it on W3?

Mathias

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 25
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 115
  • using ArcaOS
    • View Profile
    • IRC
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 10:30:20 pm »
Hello again ^^/

I also did a reinstall in a fresh VBox.
Installed...
1) Warp 3 on HPFS
2) configured SB16 (now working!)
2) "IBM Internet connection" from the Warp3 BonusPak CD
3) Fixpack 40DE for Warp3
4) SNAP drivers --> woah.. what a dream! ~

Then I did a shutdown, and created a VBOX snapshot.

Right after this, I read through the new articles in this thread ... and couldn't find a path \CID on either my Warp 3 Install CD nor the BonusPak CD. - But I found an MPTS on the Warp 4.52 CD1 in \CID\SERVER\MPTS, which I have installed on Warp 3..... that even works!! oo*
Now inetver says I've got:
Code: [Select]
[C:\]inetver
Version numbers of TCP/IP protocol drivers:
  SOCKET.SYS: 6.3000
  AFOS2.SYS: 6.3000
  AFINET.SYS: 6.3001

ping, arp, nslookup, etc, working still. Also DNS resolution does work.
Interestingly I've got ftp.exe now too, telnet, gopher (haha xD), and can load stuff over the network. *_*

Next thing to try is tab completion and Firefox, or even better Seamonkey, since that has a WYSIWYG editor included, and mail also. Question is though, if there is a Seamonkey for OS/2, which runs with Warp3.
A general question at this moment... is there such a thing as specific Warp4 software, or does all OS/2 software generally run on Warp 3 also?

Guys, you are the best indeed! - BIG thanks! ^__^

Boris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 16
  • Posts: 310
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2014, 12:31:28 am »
A general question at this moment... is there such a thing as specific Warp4 software, or does all OS/2 software generally run on Warp 3 also?

Generally OS/2 software runs on Warp 3, but the most modern applications have troubles with running even on ACP2 because they rely on newer third-party components never included in IBM distributions, but included in eCS. While these components may be installed on ACP2 with no trouble (tho u'll need to investigate what exactly does the application need...), you'll run into problems with Warp 3. For example, the mentioned kLIBC, whose latest versions do not run on Warp 3. Today developers (heh...) do not test the software on Warp 3, and although I think most of the problems may be fixed and an applications will be able to run on Warp 3, almost no one needs that, and it would be not rational to spend resources on that...

I think you will be able to run 2/3 of existing OS/2 software on Warp 3 with no problem. The 1/2 of the remaining 1/3 will require some efforts to run. And you won't be able to run the remaining part at all. For example, all applications built with Qt4 framework.

The biggest problem are the drivers and the kernel. You are limited to the old version of the kernel; you are not able to use the latest one with Warp 3.
The Warp 3's kernel lacks support of KEE, so you are not able to run the modern drivers.



Next thing to try is tab completion and Firefox, or even better Seamonkey, since that has a WYSIWYG editor included, and mail also. Question is though, if there is a Seamonkey for OS/2, which runs with Warp3.

You may try...
But even Firefox 10 (and the corresponding Seamonkey version) is a VERY heavy application. It will run insufferably slow (I'm talking about minutes just to start up) on a Pentium 333 with 256 MiB RAM.

I assume you're now talking about your virtual machine and not the hardware, because 486DX meets one hundred fraction of the minimal requirements.

Your virtual CPU may be very fast, so, especially if you set up symmetric multiprocessing support, it won't be the problem. The memory is the problem. Warp 3's kernel is unable to operate with more than 512 MiB of physical memory, and even more, due to a bug in it, it traps with that amount of memory, so you will need to limit the available memory to half of a gigabyte. You may adjust your virtual machine settings or use a third-party kernel bootloader (QSINIT) for that. The worst thing is that the problem is not with physical memory only; if this was the only problem, you could create a RAM drive on your host OS, mount it into the VM, format it and place the SWAPPER.DAT on it; but Warp 3 has no support of high virtual memory (>512 MiB), which was only introduced in WSeB. So you are stuck with half of a gigabyte anyway.

But 512 MiB is not enough to comforably use Firefox 10. It will be sufferable, tho I suggest you using Firefox 4. It is unable to handle most of the modern websites properly, but I think it is the most optimal solution. :)

Talking about yours 486DX system. You do still have an opportunity to surf some web sites using the Links web browser. It is able to run in text-only mode, or you may use an addon (Links calls them "drivers") to display web sites in graphical mode (with images) in a PM window. It will run reasonably fast even on such an old machine. Both available on Hobbes.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 12:46:21 am by Boris »
LIABILITY DISCLAIMER: this is how I understand and what I know, I may be highly inaccurate, or even completely wrong! There are no claims, promises, or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of my posts. Think on your own!

Fahrvenugen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 7
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2014, 02:27:50 am »
Hi,

It is true that Warp 3 (stock) doesn't normally see memory over 512MB, although you can run it on a machine with more memory, it just won't see the extra memory.

Although, I do have 1 Warp 3 machine which I must have applied some type of hack to, it is seeing 768MB Ram (it has a 512MB and a 256MB memory sticks in it).  I can't recall what the hack I did to it was, I'll have to see if I can find it one of these days.

Of course if you want to go for a really retro browser, you can always install the last released version of WebEX (IBM's browser) at:

ftp://service.boulder.ibm.com/ps/products/webexplorer/webxv11h/

It won't be much use on current websites, but interesting to see what the tools were like circa 1994

A lot of the older OS/2 apps do run on Warp 3.  The ones with difficulty are the more recent ports which use API's from Warp 4 (or eCS), or the KEE stuff in the newer kernel.


Mathias

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 25
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 115
  • using ArcaOS
    • View Profile
    • IRC
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2014, 09:09:29 pm »
^o^/ Ahoi!

Quote from: Boris
The Warp 3's kernel lacks support of KEE, so you are not able to run the modern drivers.

Ha! So that is the reason why the VirtualBox drivers cannot be loaded. I have seen this call to KEE when Warp 3 boots, and the drivers are included into config.sys.
Oho! Libc? Reminds me on Linux! So people did port libc to OS/2? Not bad! oo* - Maybe one step further to a free Warp one day? : )
Bad thing with the kernel issue though.. :x


Quote from: Boris
almost no one needs that, and it would be not rational to spend resources on that...

Tehehe.. you've got a point there. It's 20 years old, but still.. people use Warp 4 also, which is 14-15 years old now. - Almost nobody in the world knows what OS/2 is (and was).. so going with "rationality" there would be no new OS/2 software at all anymore. - Imho as long as there are enthustiasts around, who use all kinds of Warp, there's always somebody to make happy by relaeasing software dedicated to their dead operating system. *g*
For instance myself.. Warp 3 is an important OS of my childhood. Seeing this these days brings back memories. For me Warp 4 is.. hm.. yet another window manager. - Like the looks better in Warp 3 somehow.
I have not yet found a window manager for Warp 4 or Linux to look like Warp 3... ; )

Also.. enthustiasts keep their old computers for.. no rational reason. What are they going to use their computer with, if not with an operating system of that era. - Maintaining the hardware is as important as maintaining the software.
In the end, I suppose it's simply a lack of man power for the libc maintainers?
I'm in to help where I can, porting and testing newer libc releases to Warp 3. o/


Quote from: Boris
Firefox 10 (and the corresponding Seamonkey version) is a VERY heavy application. It will run insufferably slow (I'm talking about minutes just to start up) on a Pentium 333 with 256 MiB RAM.

Uff! Now that you mention it.. oh dear.. *g* my 486 has 24 million bytes of RAM only. - So no chance for FF or even SM.
But the Links browser is an excellent piece of software. Using this via SSH from work to surf at home. (Yes with this I do not surf at work.. technically.. xD) - Using this to browse for files and downloads. - It's got tabs and frames, source code display and the lot. - Great to hear, this has been ported!!


Quote from: Fahrvenugen
you can always install the last released version of WebEX (IBM's browser)

=) Going to give this a go also! - Always interesting how things were back then. - That is new for me, as we havn't had internet access back then. - Just modems and BBSes to chat and mail with. :^^ (That were times.. hrhr~)

Also checking hobbes for things like ssh and mc.. : )

Boris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 16
  • Posts: 310
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2014, 06:36:14 pm »
Quote from: Boris
almost no one needs that, and it would be not rational to spend resources on that...

Tehehe.. you've got a point there. It's 20 years old, but still.. people use Warp 4 also, which is 14-15 years old now. - Almost nobody in the world knows what OS/2 is (and was).. so going with "rationality" there would be no new OS/2 software at all anymore. - Imho as long as there are enthustiasts around, who use all kinds of Warp, there's always somebody to make happy by relaeasing software dedicated to their dead operating system. *g*
For instance myself.. Warp 3 is an important OS of my childhood. Seeing this these days brings back memories. For me Warp 4 is.. hm.. yet another window manager. - Like the looks better in Warp 3 somehow.
I have not yet found a window manager for Warp 4 or Linux to look like Warp 3... ; )

Also.. enthustiasts keep their old computers for.. no rational reason. What are they going to use their computer with, if not with an operating system of that era. - Maintaining the hardware is as important as maintaining the software.
In the end, I suppose it's simply a lack of man power for the libc maintainers?
I'm in to help where I can, porting and testing newer libc releases to Warp 3. o/

You're missing my point.
Why are you talking about Warp 3 then, and not about 2.x and 1.x? No one writes software for these, too.

My point is that making modern OS/2 applications run on Warp 3 decreases the amount of resources (money, people, time) that may be utilized to create or port OS/2 applications. We are in lack of modern OS/2 applications, hence I think doing this is not rational.

You can do what you want and what you think is rational of course, but the fraction ( amount-of-OS/2-software-able-to-run-on-Warp-3 / amount-of-OS/2-software ) is going to decrease everyday. When you install and use the not the latest version of an OS, you have to agree to some limitations like these. I'd say limitations^2, because we're talking about an OS that had fallen out of the mainstream more than fifteen years ago. And we're all in these limitations.

Also checking hobbes for things like ssh and mc.. : )
There is a Midnight Commander port, but I highly recommend you using Brian Havard's File Commander/2 instead.

The installation package of OpenSSH port made by nickk also includes by the way his Security/2 -- multiuser support subsystem for OS/2. It has got support of access control lists and an ability to change %HOME% environment variable on login, which you may use to assign a separate desktop to each user. This is used by OpenSSH to handle logins, so you can create a limited user and give someone a protected access to your workstation.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 06:40:00 pm by Boris »
LIABILITY DISCLAIMER: this is how I understand and what I know, I may be highly inaccurate, or even completely wrong! There are no claims, promises, or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of my posts. Think on your own!

Mathias

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 25
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 115
  • using ArcaOS
    • View Profile
    • IRC
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2014, 05:40:10 pm »
Boris, I got your point. All I was saying is that I am in love with Warp 3, and therefore want to see applications running under Warp 3. In my ignorance I did not care about Warp 1 & 2. :o Sorry for that.
Also I tried to tell you, that "love" is not a rational thing at all. You do love something/somebody because you do. You have your reasons.
Today, building an application for any OS/2 is not rational by itself, as there are more modern operating systems around. A rational developer uses his time and energy to build applications for the OS that >95% of people use world wide. So, why do some people care for OS/2 at all? - See? No rational reason...

Your position is to get all the possible developer ressources to work on modern applications on the latest Warp or ECS. - Sure, if you do not use an older OS, I can perfectly understand that.
My position is to get to a point, where it is completely irrelevant which Warp/ECS you use. Might be naive to think like this, but in theory everything should be achiveable by just developing and installing more DLLs. In the end each applications runs as good on Warp 2 as on ECS. - Cool in my opionion. Everybody has his favourite OS running and everybody can use all applications. - Complete freedom. :3

In the moment, people have to have the latest Warp or ECS in order to use up2date applications. That is not freedom, but dictatorship: Developers tell me what OS I need to use.

Couldn't developers build a framework, that runs on all Warp versions and ECS? I suppose your answer will be "time and efforts" ; ) but if things continue like this, the OS/2 community will lose more and more family members, as Warp 2.x users might not want to get ECS, and therefore come to a rational decision to switch over to linux or WINDOWS completely in the end. :/
Taking everybody along and support them with a "framework" that runs on each OS/2/ECS would do the trick most likely, to keep them all happy.


--> From your point of view, what would be standing in the way for such a "framework", assuming time and efforts were not a problem?

Mathias

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 25
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 115
  • using ArcaOS
    • View Profile
    • IRC
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2014, 11:40:03 pm »
File Commander/2 and openssh working ~ :3
Great stuff! Thanks for the info!

I have one thing, that I somehow cannot get to work yet, which is GNU Coreutils 8.8. Besides that issue, the machine is fine now. : )
Coreutils 8.8 appears to want GCC 4.4.5 (gcc445.dll) to make the executables work. I have found some GCC versions, but the closest one only has gcc446.dll. Is there a way to make a symlink to make this gcc446.dll look like gcc445.dll? Or is this a rather bad idea, and I need the exact gcc445.dll?

I have searched the web and found stuff on hobbes and on [http://os2ports.smedley.id.au/index.php?page=gcc44]. Still, the right version is not among them. Does anybody know another source for ported GCC versions? oo*

Boris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 16
  • Posts: 310
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2014, 02:22:08 am »
Boris, I got your point. All I was saying is that I am in love with Warp 3, and therefore want to see applications running under Warp 3. In my ignorance I did not care about Warp 1 & 2. :o Sorry for that.
Also I tried to tell you, that "love" is not a rational thing at all. You do love something/somebody because you do. You have your reasons.
Today, building an application for any OS/2 is not rational by itself, as there are more modern operating systems around. A rational developer uses his time and energy to build applications for the OS that >95% of people use world wide. So, why do some people care for OS/2 at all? - See? No rational reason...

Your position is to get all the possible developer ressources to work on modern applications on the latest Warp or ECS. - Sure, if you do not use an older OS, I can perfectly understand that.
My position is to get to a point, where it is completely irrelevant which Warp/ECS you use. Might be naive to think like this, but in theory everything should be achiveable by just developing and installing more DLLs. In the end each applications runs as good on Warp 2 as on ECS. - Cool in my opionion. Everybody has his favourite OS running and everybody can use all applications. - Complete freedom. :3

In the moment, people have to have the latest Warp or ECS in order to use up2date applications. That is not freedom, but dictatorship: Developers tell me what OS I need to use.

I won't comment on this. Developers do what they want. If you disagree, you may become a developer and do what you want, e. g. write apps for Warp 3. That is the freedom.

Couldn't developers build a framework, that runs on all Warp versions and ECS?

You don't quite understand.

I suppose your answer will be "time and efforts" ; ) but if things continue like this, the OS/2 community will lose more and more family members, as Warp 2.x users might not want to get ECS, and therefore come to a rational decision to switch over to linux or WINDOWS completely in the end. :/
Taking everybody along and support them with a "framework" that runs on each OS/2/ECS would do the trick most likely, to keep them all happy.


--> From your point of view, what would be standing in the way for such a "framework", assuming time and efforts were not a problem?

You may start with backporting KEE and HIGHMEM support from Aurora kernel to Warp 3's. Somehow. Then compile and make libc work perfectly, as that's what modern OS/2 userland applications usually are written with. Then if you want XWorkplace to run, you'll probably need to address some WPS and PM issues, if any. Backporting modern IFS would also be a great idea, because Warp 3 lacks support of JFS.IFS. I also have no idea if NetDrive runs on it okay, probably not. Also please remember you are running old MMPM, MPTN, PM and WPS versions. Try running Warp 3 on a modern PC where ACP2 with modern drivers and system components runs okay, figure out what's wrong and fix those issues. No idea how the only somewhat actual video drivers we have today, SDD and PANOGRADD, will run on Warp 3. I think they will fail really early. NIC drivers problems may show up.

These are the most obvious limitations. There must be lots of more. So you've got your roadmap. Although trying to run modern applications on a Warp 3 system sounds like fun.

I'm looking forward at what you'll be able to do. Because the developers we have now are is not able to make the nowadays wireless NIC run properly, build a decent office suite (compile it, not run a Windows version through API translator), rewrite system init for it to boot up from UEFI, or make PMSHELL support alpha-channel. From few to no work has been done on the kernel or video drivers. No work has been done on PM, SOM, WPS, MMPM, MPTN, LS, Peer, FAT32, exFAT, etcetera. Things that Mensys is proud of, ACPI and NTFS, has been basically written by one person. He's now fired and the sources are closed, so he's unable to continue development in the spare time, so he's now writing for Android. Many other things were done by the community; okay, with sponsoring. Flash11 is a Windows binary executable that runs so bad that hangs the GUI hard.

The thing is, we're trying to make OS/2 usable for solving actual tasks of nowadays. These include browsing, watching films, downloading pirated movies, and chatting. And maybe something more... These are somewhat addressed somehow, although have got tons of issues. Audio or video chatting is impossible. Now the tough part. Creating content is generally impossible on OS/2. We won't talk about Win16 MS Office, IBM Works, LSS or StarOffice. So we've got Apache OpenOffice. And it is not even compiled. It runs with Odin. And it runs bad. So, you actually can do something with office documents while in OS/2, great, if you've managed to start it up. But you're totally stuck with video, photo or sound. No solutions. There are a few solutions for software development, but if we talk about modern ones, there's Qt4 SDK (the latest is 5) which lacks a debugger (!...). No general modern mainstream code editors or IDEs.

The thing is, you have a different goal; you want to have fun with Warp 3, which you're not gonna use as a primary OS... I suppose, never. There's nothing bad in this, but the situations differ slightly. ;D

I have one thing, that I somehow cannot get to work yet, which is GNU Coreutils 8.8. Besides that issue, the machine is fine now. : )
Coreutils 8.8 appears to want GCC 4.4.5 (gcc445.dll) to make the executables work. I have found some GCC versions, but the closest one only has gcc446.dll. Is there a way to make a symlink to make this gcc446.dll look like gcc445.dll? Or is this a rather bad idea, and I need the exact gcc445.dll?

Strange issue. Please try this:
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/coreutils-8_6-10_oc00.zip
This package runs perfectly on ACP2 and eCS 2.1.
And I don't have gcc445 shared runtime library installed in my systems.
LIABILITY DISCLAIMER: this is how I understand and what I know, I may be highly inaccurate, or even completely wrong! There are no claims, promises, or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of my posts. Think on your own!

Mathias

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 25
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 115
  • using ArcaOS
    • View Profile
    • IRC
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 04:36:39 am »
Quote from: Boris
The thing is, we're trying to make OS/2 usable for solving actual tasks of nowadays. You have a different goal; you want to have fun with Warp 3, which you're not gonna use as a primary OS... I suppose, never. There's nothing bad in this, but the situations differ slightly. ;D

Well, it used to be my primary OS in the 90ies, before Win95 came and completely deleted C:\OS2, while letting everything else on C:\.
I did the usual things with OS/2, a 13 year old does... getting known to what it can do if I click here and there, learn how to launch games, find out how to render my dad's PC usage restrictions useless, try out and learn the basics of QBasic, QuickBasic and PMREXX, also CoBOL.
Later I found out about Linux and C++, and also that I can write things, when I miss a tool, or the existing ones don't meet my requirements. I did this on Windows and on Linux also, until I made this hobby my job.
Of course I planned to write things that I miss for OS/2 Warp 3 also, if necessary. The thing I usually do. Miss something? Find out how and write it. Time and efforts never were an issue.

But your recent overview about the situation is.. quite disappointing. Do developers really only do what they want? Didn't they team up to achieve the higher goal?
Like for instance build some platform that is above all the different libs, kernels and dlls, which all new tools depend on. Instead of that, currently people are developing things for the numerous libs and dlls, that need to be adapted to the existing OSes over and over again.
Microsoft did something good with .NET. - A framework, that makes applications written for that framework, run on all Windows installations that are supported by .NET. - And these are quite a few. Would not that be a model for OS/2 also?

This can, of course, not make up for the lack of drivers for current hardware, or missing kernel modules. Absolutely right. But that is a problem, that most communities suffer..... industry support for "free" software is quite poor, as the industries' driver is money, not ideals.


So.. to return to the initial quote: Yes, I planned to have a look at Warp 3 again, together with my newly refurbished 486er, as they already were a good couple decades ago. No further goals planned.
I would have never thought, that people still actively use Warp 4.xx or ECS as their primary operating system. I can almost imagine how much "fun" it must be to look for a NIC driver or modern graphics card.
Had good fun already to get my non-connect Warp 3 into a usable status, thanks to you and the other good people in this thread! Installed numerous libs and dlls, fiddled here and there to make Z work, which requires Y, which requires X and so on.

But.. to make Warp 4.xx or ECS to run on recent hardware is a completely different level than this and developing some neat tools for this and that. - This requires a wide base of developers dedicated to their specialised field. How can this be done? And how did it work until now? Reading articles, I found out, rights on Warp are still with IBM and the owner of ECS have changed two or three times?
Not a good development at all, also as the source codes aren't open..

Might be indeed easier to go for something from-scratch.. based on free software that already exists. - Which brings me to the question... what is the motivation to keep using OS/2 as the primary operating system, if not "for fun" (to see how far it can get)? - Do you use software, that only runs on OS/2, which has not been ported to anything else, or.. why all this?



Quote from: Boris
No general modern mainstream code editors or IDEs.

Oh! True! I was looking for such a thing already. Hmm.. too bad to hear there are none.
So a text editor and gcc & emx is THE way atm?
Speaking of... the vanilla text editors on Warp3 appear to cut a line after 256th character, so I switched over to vi(le), which does the job. Can you recomment GUI text editors? (If possible even with syntax hilightning.. as the file viewer in File Commander/2 does)


Quote from: Boris
Many other things were done by the community; okay, with sponsoring.

I am completely fine with that sponsoring model, as long as it leads to quality software, that eases people's everyday software needs. Already thought about buying the File Commander/2, as this feels like a solid tool for everyday work! - Until it launched into a memory exception, and I found out by comparing, that an empty file is the culprit. Deleted it... and it kept launching again. An author cannot allow such bugs in paid software. Sorry, but this is not on release state yet. Even it is a port to OS/2, it needs to be tested before release. :-]
Until now this has not yet occured again.. but I am keen to see which surprise will there be tomorrow.. =)


Quote from: Boris
Strange issue. Please try this:
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/coreutils-8_6-10_oc00.zip
This package runs perfectly on ACP2 and eCS 2.1.
And I don't have gcc445 shared runtime library installed in my systems.

Oho! I'll give this a go shortly. - Thanks! :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 04:44:38 am by Mathias »

Dave Yeo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 149
  • Posts: 2170
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2014, 04:59:58 am »
The main problem with Warp V3 is lack of high memory support so you're left with 512MBs per process and much of that is taken by DLLs. Try running Firefox in 300MBs of memory.
You might be able to use a Warp Server kernel to work around this issue as high memory support was first added to the server editions.
BTW, all the gcc dlls are available as warpin packages at ftp://ftp.netlabs.org/pub/gcc/ along with GCC 3.3.5 and kLIBC. You need 3.3.5 installed before you can install any newer GCC versions, don't know if it'll work on V3 as no-one tests. If not you're left with old EMX for GCC.
There are probably some decent GUI editors that depend on Java or QT, start at svn.netlabs.org/

Boris

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 16
  • Posts: 310
    • View Profile
Re: driver trouble with Warp 3
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2014, 06:49:09 am »
But your recent overview about the situation is.. quite disappointing. Do developers really only do what they want? Didn't they team up to achieve the higher goal?
Like for instance build some platform that is above all the different libs, kernels and dlls, which all new tools depend on. Instead of that, currently people are developing things for the numerous libs and dlls, that need to be adapted to the existing OSes over and over again.
Microsoft did something good with .NET. - A framework, that makes applications written for that framework, run on all Windows installations that are supported by .NET. - And these are quite a few. Would not that be a model for OS/2 also?
I can see no problems with "above all the different libs, kernels and dlls, which all new tools depend on".
You've stated you want to use a very outdated unsupported version of OS/2 -- here you got your troubles^2.
If you've chosen ACP2 or eCS, you would got just troubles.

But it doesn't seem that anyone is going to write another .NET (which costs more than 5M$) just to solve your libc trouble or any of the (troubles^2-troubles).

You're advising to do a thing that we're unable to do due to the lack of resources, to fix a problem that doesn't even exist, and that can be fixed the other way that costs less in a hundred of times. Do you see yourself talking very strange?

So.. to return to the initial quote: Yes, I planned to have a look at Warp 3 again, together with my newly refurbished 486er, as they already were a good couple decades ago. No further goals planned.
I would have never thought, that people still actively use Warp 4.xx or ECS as their primary operating system. I can almost imagine how much "fun" it must be to look for a NIC driver or modern graphics card.
Had good fun already to get my non-connect Warp 3 into a usable status, thanks to you and the other good people in this thread! Installed numerous libs and dlls, fiddled here and there to make Z work, which requires Y, which requires X and so on.

But.. to make Warp 4.xx or ECS to run on recent hardware is a completely different level than this and developing some neat tools for this and that.
Yes, and that's why we're all here. We use OS/2-eCS as a primary (used to do all or almost all tasks), one of the primaries (e. g. Windows on a laptop and OS/2 on a desktop; both used to do the same or differing a little bit tasks), or as a secondary OS (e. g. used to perform one/two tasks, or to develop/port software to OS/2 platform; usually installed in a VM). There still are some people that just installed an OS/2 in a VM and just need some help, but that's not who am I talking about, cuz they usually don't stay in the community.

This requires a wide base of developers dedicated to their specialised field. How can this be done? And how did it work until now? Reading articles, I found out, rights on Warp are still with IBM and the owner of ECS have changed two or three times?
Not a good development at all
Man, you're now talking offensive. It's like someone owes you something.

, also as the source codes aren't open..
That's not our fault, we are not related neither to Serenity/Mensys/XEU, nor to IBM (well, right now).
Talking like that is like stepping on a nerve. Do you do that on purpose?

Might be indeed easier to go for something from-scratch.. based on free software that already exists. - Which brings me to the question...
Again.
If you hadn't talked like that, I'd give you the link to osFree, but I won't do that.

what is the motivation to keep using OS/2 as the primary operating system, if not "for fun" (to see how far it can get)? - Do you use software, that only runs on OS/2, which has not been ported to anything else, or.. why all this?
You must have been doing that on purpose now. I'm sure.




Quote from: Boris
No general modern mainstream code editors or IDEs.
Oh! True! I was looking for such a thing already. Hmm.. too bad to hear there are none.
So a text editor and gcc & emx is THE way atm?
Can you recomment GUI text editors? (If possible even with syntax hilightning.. as the file viewer in File Commander/2 does)
Take a look at jEdit, it runs on OS/2, but since some version they've accidentally broken something in the filesystem module, but some old version is known to work.
You can write C++ with Qt in Qt Creator.
You can also use an old good VisualAge C++. It lacks the modern features, but that's a typical IBM product -- incredibly powerful, but hard to understand.
For a simple text editor for programmers, take a look at hobbes in the appropriate section. There are something like FED, KON, or something like those...




I am completely fine with that sponsoring model, as long as it leads to quality software, that eases people's everyday software needs. Already thought about buying the File Commander/2, as this feels like a solid tool for everyday work! - Until it launched into a memory exception, and I found out by comparing, that an empty file is the culprit. Deleted it... and it kept launching again. An author cannot allow such bugs in paid software. Sorry, but this is not on release state yet. Even it is a port to OS/2, it needs to be tested before release. :-]

That is totally inappropriate.

You've just suddenly come out of nowhere, and now
  • drawing conclusions about
    • how everything should be made,
    • what developers should do,
    • how the work should be organized;
  • groundlessly criticizing the whole OS/2 community that is trying to survive;
  • advising to
    • "rewrite from scratch",
    • "port wanted stuff to another platform",
    • "make ours own .NET to make a new hypothetical OS/2 application to run on yours Warp 3";
  • asking
    • "how do u keep using it",
    • "how are you still doing something",
    • "how did it work until now";
  • stating
    • "not a good development at all",
    • "should be tested" (about an originally OS/2 software that is respected os2world-widely).

What the heck? Who are you?

I'm sorry, but stfu & gtfo.
LIABILITY DISCLAIMER: this is how I understand and what I know, I may be highly inaccurate, or even completely wrong! There are no claims, promises, or guarantees about the accuracy, completeness, or adequacy of the contents of my posts. Think on your own!