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os2ldr

Started by AAA, 2008.02.02, 23:40:57

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El Vato

Quote from: The Blue Warper on 2008.07.17, 14:44:27
Quote from: El Vato on 2008.07.17, 11:22:01

[...]; we could say that the additiona i is for interactive. [...]


Hi, El Vato,

I used to know that the -I letter in OSKRNLI stood for "Install" (please see Zimmerli's article on EDM/2 "Inside the OS/2 Kernel"
Reiterating: In any different approach to an old paradigm, it is often difficult to discern the inherent assumptions from one's reasoning.  Apparently those assumptions even translate into replacing words into what I wrote.  we could say that the additiona i is for interactive. is not the same as, the additiona i is for interactive.

Clearly, I wrote the former –not the latter.  And no, I had not read the source that you cite; the word that I used was based in actual experience during my long past initial struggles installing OS/2 from floppies.  By the time the first diskette is finished the OS2KRNL is already installed/accepted and the OS/2 installation routine prompts the user to replace the boot diskette for the diskette containing peripheral device drivers, etc. --resembling more an interactive session between user and machine.  Hence, we could say that the additiona i is for interactive.

Quote from: The Blue Warper on 2008.07.17, 14:44:27
I *think* the new os2ldr replacement is currently meant for an already installed system, so maybe you should try to start from there.[...]
Where is the condition that OS2LDR should be installed into an existing system ???

The beauty of open betas is that the developers will receive feed back that they had not even anticipated due to the sample target not being controlled as in an science experiment and proprietary software products methodologies.

There is a point where pedantic arguments do not correspond to their pragmatic equivalents.  Evidently, we are dealing with an instance of such.

As yourself, Just my thought on the subject, nothing more :-)

saborion2

#61
Hi El Vato,

You have said et al

Re:

Quote

The beauty of open betas is that the developers will receive feed back that they had not even anticipated due to the sample target not being controlled as in an science experiment and proprietary software products methodologies.

There is a point where pedantic arguments do not correspond to their pragmatic equivalents.  Evidently, we are dealing with an instance of such.

As yourself, Just my thought on the subject, nothing more :-)


I have two questions for you here:

    1. Should there not be compelling reasons given/stated/outlined (as in the case of 
        VOYAGER Project; and, as CASSINI will) for the development of the   
        advanced "OS2KRNL and OS2LDR".

     2. Do you care to explain if it is possible to jump straight to
         "beta-codes" without consideration for the "alpha-code
         development?

I am just being a bit curious.

Have a nice day.

Thanks.

SAB

El Vato


I thought about sharing the two (highlighted) quoted links below that may shed some light into the licensing issues --as might be relevant to OS/2-- discussed in prior threads.  I hope those will further shed some light into the discussion.  This is simply information from actual instances of the application of those licenses and the potential repercussions for subsequent development.


"Apple has a very strong following in the open source community, and I can no longer understand it nor justify my own support (I am writing this on a Macbook). They built OS X on FreeBSD (a project I have enthusiastically supported, contributed to and been a user of for 10 years or more), they built Safari on KHTML, and are now using libraries such as SproutCore in MobileMe. They have taken open source and everything it built and leveraged it to get to market faster - yet they have now, with iTunes and the new SDK, built a layer on top of it that excludes others. For Apple, open source is great when it furthers their own goals, but not when using it with Apple software where it may further the goals of others.
[...]
The problem with Apple is that the blind demand is driven by a distorted reality, so those same developers who poured thousands of hours into the BSD kernel now turn around and purchase an iPhone running that code, but it is now tied up in DRM, licenses and restrictions placed there by others."


Hence, Apple takes their code, repackages and seals it with DRM and restrictions glue, and subsequently sells the tainted BSD licensed code back to them ???  Yet, the fellow criticizes the GPLv3 which, if their work was covered by such a license instead of BSD, Apple would not be able to touch their work ... ???   :D INSANE :D

That is essentially what this IT business Edge blogger comment:

"Apple can do whatever it wants with the modifications made to BSD for the Mac OS X and the iPhone OS. If the company had opted instead to start with a Linux variant released under the GNU GPL, that would be a different conversation. But it didn't."

pasha

Quote from: Criguada on 2008.02.23, 19:07:34
Pasha,

I really appreciate the work being done on os2ldr and the kernel, but please don't discard Netlabs just because of Voyager. The Voyager project is NOT about kernel replacement, so I think there is really no conflict between the two projects. Instead, I think that both are needed (and can cooperate) for a better OS/2 future.

What about the osFree project? Are you collaborating with them? I think we need to join forces as much as possible to succeed.

  I am sorry, but netlabs don't want use Voyager under OS/2. For me it is bad. It can be replacement for pmshell..... And improve time for IBM free OS/2.

  About osfree, usially, I look comment in this source, but... 104a (Team Os/4 base) has very very very diff.


pasha

Quote from: El Vato on 2008.02.22, 23:27:59
I agree on the need to support this kind of OS/2 native development.

I just hope that the support becomes something concrete that will help the financial situation of those Eastern developers.  As oppossed to Odinized hacks which only make the OS/2 environment unstable, core components like that of OS2LDR have the potential of actually increasing the stability and modern hardware availability for OS/2...

Financial support can be after result? Right? Now new kernel is absent ;-) os2ldr is only prepare for new kernel. os2ldr is very simple and very buggyway :( Write is short - remove bug is long.

pasha

Quote from: El Vato on 2008.02.28, 04:23:40
please do not jail the binaries/code by selling it (or exclusively licensing) to a proprietary entity.  Having made these first steps, you and your team are (will be) in the best position to replace the proprietary source with open source equivalent.  Once the proprietary intellectual property (IP) hurdles are behind, you and your team might become the de facto maintainers of these OS/2-defining crucial core components (since you guys are also working in the kernel replacement).

  Source can't be open under GPL, we use DDK. Look to DDK license. About sale source - we can't sale it, because we hav't legally 'face' for legally saling. Now it is group, only group w/o legally in law means. When be result - be think ;-) When be first public release kernel - welcome all who want and know. Mean know and want change kernel - for this man source be open.

pasha

Quote from: Shai on 2008.02.28, 19:24:07
do I understand this right: these guys are reverse engineering the OS/2 kernel (btw which one)?
hats off!

would be great if this will be a part of eComStation someday

For you special ;-) IBM license possible part reverse engineering. Our technology - we cut kernel by segment and rewrite each. I mean, all segments be binary (IBM license), we rewrite 1 and replace to kernel. Then next, then next . Part of segments don't write, GDTSeg for example - it can't be write.

pasha

Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.07.09, 17:11:04
Hi "pasha",

A few observations:

Re:

Quote1. os2ldr and os2krnl use IBM DDK
2. I don't see normal GPL project from 199x to current day
3. I don't think, that this will intrested for linux
4. I don't think, that this will help project

  So, we have to see , that source can't be open as GNU and GNU term. But... Why open as GNU? Source os2ldr and os2krnl can open for anybode(y), which want help and know how help.

Since it ought to be well known that IBM has responded some time ago to an OS/2 World Foundation's Petition Letter that the OS/2 Source-Codes cannot be Open-Sourced due to "legal and other reasons" (then one ought to take this as a given). However, I am curious though as to the present agreement in place with IBM (and, perhaps other companies) that enabled development work to be carried out on the "os2ldr and os2krnl" project.

Additionally, (from an earlier question) is there; or, will there be a focus on the development an 64-bit "os2krnl" in order to; re:

Quotesurvive in the 64-bit modern computing paradigm --towards where all other modern OSes are moving
?

Thank you.

Regards,

SAB
   

This don't curious - project has don't access from anybody, can access from known user - IBM license is OK. 64 bits.... What in OS/2 really use greate then 512 Mb every time?

But, be source (our project) - can be 64 bit, but....

saborion2

#68
Quote from: pasha on 2008.08.01, 22:04:28
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.07.09, 17:11:04
Hi "pasha",

A few observations:

Re:

Quote1. os2ldr and os2krnl use IBM DDK
2. I don't see normal GPL project from 199x to current day
3. I don't think, that this will intrested for linux
4. I don't think, that this will help project

  So, we have to see , that source can't be open as GNU and GNU term. But... Why open as GNU? Source os2ldr and os2krnl can open for anybode(y), which want help and know how help.

Since it ought to be well known that IBM has responded some time ago to an OS/2 World Foundation's Petition Letter that the OS/2 Source-Codes cannot be Open-Sourced due to "legal and other reasons" (then one ought to take this as a given). However, I am curious though as to the present agreement in place with IBM (and, perhaps other companies) that enabled development work to be carried out on the "os2ldr and os2krnl" project.

Additionally, (from an earlier question) is there; or, will there be a focus on the development an 64-bit "os2krnl" in order to; re:

Quotesurvive in the 64-bit modern computing paradigm --towards where all other modern OSes are moving
?

Thank you.

Regards,

SAB
   

This don't curious - project has don't access from anybody, can access from known user - IBM license is OK. 64 bits.... What in OS/2 really use greate then 512 Mb every time?

But, be source (our project) - can be 64 bit, but....


Hi pasha,

I am glad to know that your project can be 64-bit based (hence, this augers well for Project CASSINI). However, can you please elaborate on your statement - "IBM license is OK. 64 bits....". And, must admit some degree of difficulty in clearly understanding/comprehending all that you have written/stated in your post.

Thanks,

SAB

RobertM

Hi pasha,

Some things I would appreciate 64bit support for are larger memory available for things like disk cache (without eating into shared memory), web server cache, MySQL caches, etc.

Our server handles a lot of video and images (and create image thumbnails for uploaded images on the fly), so it would help out there as well.

Another thing I think it would be helpful for is in enabling virtual RAM drives in memory (as I have seen done on various Linux hosts) where the entire web and SQL environment can be copied to a virtual RAM drive and run from there to thus increase access speeds and capacity.


As a starting point, I would be happy with seeing PAE mode support (36bit memory support as is available in any Intel CPU from the last 8+ years) to enable 64GB memory access.


Thanks for all your hard work,
Robert


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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ModZilla

why dev a new version of os2ldr anyway if its not for eCSv2? why native when really, who cares about this anymore? it would be like trying to rebuild the tacoma narrows bridge the way it was before it collapsed duh -though its not  un"appreciated" all, hey, el Vato, your bold highlight in blue: "concrete" could have had a link in it to highlight the drift of your rift man, like this perhaps: http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html when he died it was said he [Sir Isaac]was too religious to be respected as a scientist and so nothin has changed, just the appearant position of the great wheel...  >:(
someday os2 will be ruled by the young and famous-at least in the open-source world!

El Vato

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
why dev a new version of os2ldr anyway if its not for eCSv2? why native when really, who cares about this anymore? it would be like trying to rebuild the tacoma narrows bridge the way it was before it collapsed duh

Possibly if you did a little more research *before* posting a reply to something you do not fully understand might have saved me from repeating for the 3rd time this morning, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," my friend.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
-though its not  un"appreciated" all, hey, el Vato, your bold highlight in blue: "concrete" could have had a link in it to highlight the drift of your rift man,

My use of the term concrete implied providing some form of financial support for the developers of the OS2LDR/OS2KRNL *during* the development phase --that being critical for the survival of any development effort; as opposed to merely expressing "support" in an passive manner.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
like this perhaps: http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html when he died it was said he [Sir Isaac]was too religious to be respected as a scientist

Being an OS/2 and GNU/Linux user, I do not consider the article of reference (MS Encarta) as sufficiently unbiased so as to be taken seriously --for it can only reflect the special interest of its owner.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
and so nothin has changed, just the appearant position of the great wheel...  >:(

...oh, it has changed, my friend!  One of the reasons for the existence of the so called Large Hadron Collider (that is the subject of news this morning) is to determine the nature of black matter in the Universe. So ???  You might ask.

Well, the modern scientist is so indoctrinated with Newton's "Laws" that every far away system that they observe, and that does not obey those "Laws," is made to conform to those by the supposition of that certain black matter to hold the entities from spinning off to nowhere.

In the absence of an alternative, possibly more complex, mathematical model for the Universe, the modern scientist is simply adding "perfect" circles to an unsustainable structure in the face of observational dissent. They did thus during the European "Dark Ages" prior to Newton and they are doing it now because they can not let go of Newton. 

Will not you join me in action, and not merely in fleeting words that you do not seem to understand, and construct an open source ship and go OS/2 Warp 5 speed to witness firsthand those developments far away?  ;)  Eh, ModZilla?!


saborion2

#72
Re:

Quote from: El Vato on 2008.09.10, 17:01:08
Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
why dev a new version of os2ldr anyway if its not for eCSv2? why native when really, who cares about this anymore? it would be like trying to rebuild the tacoma narrows bridge the way it was before it collapsed duh

Possibly if you did a little more research *before* posting a reply to something you do not fully understand might have saved me from repeating for the 3rd time this morning, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing," my friend.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
-though its not  un"appreciated" all, hey, el Vato, your bold highlight in blue: "concrete" could have had a link in it to highlight the drift of your rift man,


My use of the term concrete implied providing some form of financial support for the developers of the OS2LDR/OS2KRNL *during* the development phase --that being critical for the survival of any development effort; as opposed to merely expressing "support" in an passive manner.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
like this perhaps: http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html when he died it was said he [Sir Isaac]was too religious to be respected as a scientist

Being an OS/2 and GNU/Linux user, I do not consider the article of reference (MS Encarta) as sufficiently unbiased so as to be taken seriously --for it can only reflect the special interest of its owner.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.31, 17:47:28
and so nothin has changed, just the appearant position of the great wheel...  >:(

...oh, it has changed, my friend!  One of the reasons for the existence of the so called Large Hadron Collider (that is the subject of news this morning) is to determine the nature of black matter in the Universe. So ???  You might ask.

Well, the modern scientist is so indoctrinated with Newton's "Laws" that every far away system that they observe, and that does not obey those "Laws," is made to conform to those by the supposition of that certain black matter to hold the entities from spinning off to nowhere.

In the absence of an alternative, possibly more complex, mathematical model for the Universe, the modern scientist is simply adding "perfect" circles to an unsustainable structure in the face of observational dissent. They did thus during the European "Dark Ages" prior to Newton and they are doing it now because they can not let go of Newton. 

Will not you join me in action, and not merely in fleeting words that you do not seem to understand, and construct an open source ship and go OS/2 Warp 5 speed to witness firsthand those developments far away?  ;)  Eh, ModZilla?!


Bravo El Vato,

Like the "true matador"  ;D that I think you are you have pretty much "nailed" a few issues surrounding the development/advancement and use of the OS/2 Operating System in "one" step/move; and, with particular reference to

QuoteMy use of the term concrete implied providing some form of financial support for the developers of the OS2LDR/OS2KRNL *during* the development phase --that being critical for the survival of any development effort; as opposed to merely expressing "support" in an passive manner.

Do you think that the attached (though not seen in a very positive light at this time) "rings a bell"  ::) ::) ::)

Quote

Thank you for your ....... Submissions Agreement, dated June 16, 2008.  I am
sorry to say we are not interested in pursuing further discussions at this
time.  The ..... Venture Capital Group does not perform equity or seed
funding.  Rather, they engage with established venture capital firms that
offer technology relevant to the industries and customers ..... serves.  For
more information, please visit:

...

Thank you again for contacting ......  We wish you the best in your future
endeavors.



How about adding "Where Others Have Never Gone Before" (no forgetting - To Boldly Go...) to your last paragraph. And, in an old school (Granville College) parlance... Should we say that "Contact_Has_Been_Made" with the other side. ;D ::) ;D

Best regards.

SAB

El Vato

#73
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.09.10, 17:51:10
[...]
QuoteMy use of the term concrete implied providing some form of financial support for the developers of the OS2LDR/OS2KRNL *during* the development phase --that being critical for the survival of any development effort; as opposed to merely expressing "support" in an passive manner.

Do you think that the attached (though not seen in a very positive light at this time) "rings a bell"  ::) ::) ::)

Quote

Thank you for your .......[...]

Thank you again for contacting ......  We wish you the best in your future
endeavors.



It certainly does.  For an ISV, venture capital may mean the difference between life and death of its software development efforts --at the price of throwing to the sharks its owner/founder if the velociraptors (coined from Netscape's Jim Clark) are not happy with the 10 times return on initial investment at the very least.

For the OS/2 developer, notwithstanding, some form of a credit card fund might be used to sustain their efforts.  For instance, imagine this card (below) with an OS/2 logo printed instead of the Penguin: Linux Fund

Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.09.10, 17:51:10
How about adding "Where Others Have Never Gone Before" (no forgetting - To Boldly Go...) to your last paragraph. And, in an old school (Granville College) parlance... Should we say that "Contact_Has_Been_Made" with the other side. ;D ::) ;D
[...]

Well you may add that if you so desire, SAB.

saborion2

Quote from: El Vato on 2008.09.10, 18:58:39
Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.09.10, 17:51:10
[...]
QuoteMy use of the term concrete implied providing some form of financial support for the developers of the OS2LDR/OS2KRNL *during* the development phase --that being critical for the survival of any development effort; as opposed to merely expressing "support" in an passive manner.

Do you think that the attached (though not seen in a very positive light at this time) "rings a bell"  ::) ::) ::)

Quote

Thank you for your .......[...]

Thank you again for contacting ......  We wish you the best in your future
endeavors.



It certainly does.  For an ISV, venture capital may mean the difference between life and death of its software development efforts --at the price of throwing to the sharks its owner/founder if the velociraptors (coined from Netscape's Jim Clark) are not happy with the 10 times return on initial investment at the very least.

For the OS/2 developer, notwithstanding, some form of a credit card fund might be used to sustain their efforts.  For instance, imagine this card (below) with an OS/2 logo printed instead of the Penguin: Linux Fund

Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.09.10, 17:51:10
How about adding "Where Others Have Never Gone Before" (no forgetting - To Boldly Go...) to your last paragraph. And, in an old school (Granville College) parlance... Should we say that "Contact_Has_Been_Made" with the other side. ;D ::) ;D
[...]

Well you may add that if you so desire, SAB.

Well, to come to think about it when one considers how much has gone into the LHC (should I say pure research):

Re:

QuoteThe physicists celebrated with champagne when the white dots flashed on the blue screens of the control room, showing a successful crossing of the finish line on the $10 billion machine under planning since 1984.

http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7405&eeid=6085221&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt


then, what is sooo........ wrong spending a few millions of dollars (if so much is really needed) where excellent value propositions can be demonstrated based on the development of OS2LDR/OS2KRNL.

El Vato, can you quote a figure as to what the total costs would/can be in a scenario concerned with the subject matter of this thread.

Kindest regards,

SAB