Author Topic: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion  (Read 1717 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2019, 03:42:35 am »
Hi Ivan.

Maybe the Ryzen subject need to be discussed broadly.

Over here we have a couple of national suppliers doing discounts on Ryzen based machines and I have a lot of my old clients asking if it is safe to update to them.  I have to tell them No at the moment because of lack of information about USB 3 drivers - extremely frustrating.

It sound like if you are an ArcaOS reseller and/or you have OS/2 customer you provide service to. What I would do in your case is let Lewis known the potential customers they are missing (if they haven't bought ArcaOS) because of the lack of USB 3.0. And if there are already ArcaOS customers, ask them to make some healthy pressure to AN for the drivers.

What about trying to get an Ryzen based machine (desktop), find a PCI USB 2.0 card that you know it works on OS/2 and test it out? It is  an ugly workaround but at least you will test if the rest of the mainboard and processor works as expected (or crash very hard). From my side I haven't hear(read) anything about AMD Ryzen on the testing mailing list. Don't think that the test group is super cool where people test exquisite secret working drivers, it is tedious to me because of all the necessary bug fixing is discussed there, but it is something that is necessary and shows that there is movement. My opinion is that I don't see USB 3 around the corner, there is work in progress, and you (maybe with your customers) should ask AN for an estimated time release.

From what I have seen that is not the way products are developed in the US where they seem to be obsessed with IP and 'you must not let other know what you are doing'.
Is this bias against the US? (It is the first time I use the "bias" word in a forum). Maybe AN is taking too much time to release drivers (that is part of my criticism), or very busy bug fixing the next release and not communicating their progress in my opinion, but I don't see them overly obsessed with IP or secrecy for the moment.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2019, 01:14:32 pm »
Hi Martin,

I agree that the latest AMD processors need to be discussed in detail (one of the national suppliers that was a staunch Intel shop is now sending out Ryzen information and even have a reasonable supply in their local shop).

Sorry, we were never software resellers although we did give help and advice where necessary.  I retired 5 years ago, being 75 years old I thought it was time to call it a day.  Our main business was, and still is, about hardware interfaces between control computers and industrial machine tools many of which started life with OS/2 v2 as single units.  Over the years we helped them upgrade to Warp 4 and integrate logging into the office as well as doing a few other things to keep them up to date.

I have 5 Ryzen based machines using Asus, MSI and Gigabyte motherboards working using various PS/2 to USB adapters to allow the use of USB keyboards and trackballs which is fine when all is well but a real PITA when something forces a hard reset.  Regarding the use of a USB 2 addin card, the only ones I have found that work are those based on the Via chipset and they now cost the earth if you can find them.  Most addin cards that say they are USB 2 are really USB 3 chipsets relying on the fall-back to USB 2 and so are useless at the present time.

My comment regarding the US obsession with IP is based on my talking with other engineers on various hardware fora and message boards.  The US is not exclusive with that bur the rot seems to have started out there and is spreading to other countries now.


Neil Waldhauer

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2019, 03:41:48 pm »
I am an ArcaOS reseller, and I'm fine with concentrating on Lenovo products. I prefer Intel chipsets because I'm familiar with their behavior under OS/2. I'd be willing to experiment with AMD if I had customer support (i. e. someone to actually buy an AMD-based computer)

http://www.blondeguy.com/products.html

Newer computer support on the Intel side is very, very slow to appear. My two latest computers work only with test versions of Arca Noae drivers. The next-to-most recent computers work well enough to use in production. This would not be true if Arca Noae had not developed their various drivers.
Expert consulting for ArcaOS, OS/2 and eComStation
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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2019, 10:05:02 pm »
OK, back to the drawing board.

I have just spent three hours trying to do a new install on a first gen Ryzen 5 box (MSI A320M Pro-VD Plus motherboard).  While it no longer baulks at start up I can't get past the first selection screen (the one to select keyboard and mouse handedness), first it spreads beyond the screen borders and this is a 1290 x 1200 Samsung S24E650 monitor (is it expecting a 4K monitor?) but the real killer is the fact there is no mouse pointer and the keyboard doesn't work (these are both USB devices).  Part of the time was taken up removing a USB 2 card from one of my other computers and transferring it to the test machine but that didn't work, neither did the PS/2 dual socket to 2 USB sockets Y cable and since I no longer have trackballs or keyboards with PS/2 plugs so that ended that.

I suppose I will have to setup an second gen AMD A10-9700 APU on one of my Ryzen boxes and give it another try and see if the USB problem is still there.

Dave Yeo

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 12:53:50 am »
You should open an issue about this hardware. Never know but might get some support in the way of early drivers or at least let the developers know about this.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2019, 03:03:41 pm »
Hi Ivan

It is a good thing that booted, seems that the processor is fine.

Part of the time was taken up removing a USB 2 card from one of my other computers and transferring it to the test machine but that didn't work, neither did the PS/2 dual socket to 2 USB sockets Y cable and since I no longer have trackballs or keyboards with PS/2 plugs so that ended that.

I'm guessing that the USB 2.0 card worked fine on other OS/2 installation, right? So, it will be like who is not being recognized by ArcaOS, the mainboard PCI or the USB 2.0 card.

If you have the mouse and keyboard attached to the USB 2.0 card, when you access the computer BIOS, can you use the keyboard? Is this one of this BIOS that uses the mouse too? does the mouse works?

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Martin Iturbide
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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2019, 06:29:29 pm »
Hi Martin,

A bit more information.

Equipment:

MSI A320M Pro-VD Plus motherboard.

AMD Ryzen 5 first gen Processor

Saphire AMD Radeon Video card

2 x 4GB DDR4 memory sticks

1 x 1TB Seagate FireCuda  SATA v3

Samsung S24E650 Monitor

Kensington Prp Fit MultiMedia USB Keyboard

Kensington Orbit Optical Trackball.

For those not familiar with the motherboard I have included the rear panel layout - note the dual PS/2 keyboard/mouse socket with two USB 2 sockets under.  The two USB 2 sockets are driven from the A320M northbridge and have the keyboard and trackball plugged into them.

This computer was originally built for a friend who was killed in an accident so I ended up with it as my Linux (Zorin) computer and test bed.



On bootup I had to enter the bios and set the DVD and Hard disk to non UEFI - no problem with kb or trackball.  From here follow the original post.
Adding the USB 2 card did nothing to help even though it was recognised in the bios.

The USB2 card is back in my main computer Ryzen 3 2200G second gen processor (MSI B350M motherboard) and is working with both keyboard and trackball.

One other thing, I can get the test machine to run if I use a hard disk with a working ArcaOS install on it but it does need the Via USB 2 Card for KB and trackball to work.  It appears that I will be using disk images to get working ArcaOS systems for some time yet.
 

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2019, 07:11:55 pm »
Hi

Thanks for the picture, It i clear to me now that the mainboard has USB 2.0 ports.  I tried to organize this hardware report on the OS2World wiki

So the issue (beside we don't have USB 3.0 drivers) is that these devices do not work

 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3104h USB 2.0

I don't have AMD or VIA USB hardware, so I'm not sure if there is someone that can report if VIA USB 2.0 (1106:3104) had worked in the past with the USB drivers.

My last idea will be to check if the BIOS has something like "USB Legacy Support".
After that I think it good to open a ticket for the USB drivers.

Regards


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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2019, 09:13:53 pm »
The Via USB 1.1 and 2 drivers work when you can get therm initialised.

I think the main problem is how USB support is arranged in the AMD Ryzen processor and the AMD northbridge chipsets.  Some of the USB 2 ports are enabled using a USB 3 passthrough.  Other problems could be because of the way they announce themselves (see Lars comment #17 on the USBDRV 10.225 thread. 

If they don't get initialised they will not work as I have seen a few weeks ago when I had a hard reset on my main machine and it required me to 'press enter to continue' because a driver wouldn't load - I had to borrow a keyboard with a PS/2 plug to get everything up and working again (a bit of a panic at the time because even my trusty PS/2 to USB adapters didn't work).

I will say again that ArcsOS does work, less USB 3, on a Ryzen machine if you use a working image from another AMD based machine (may need a 7th gen A series processor). So far I have been unable ti actually install from DVD or USB.
 

Doug Bissett

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2019, 10:53:31 pm »
Quote
Adding the USB 2 card did nothing to help even though it was recognised in the bios.

Can you boot from the USB 2 card? I doubt it. I haven't seen a USB device, connected to a plug in USB card that shows up as a boot device. It certainly isn't impossible, but it is unlikely.

Quote
Some of the USB 2 ports are enabled using a USB 3 passthrough.

Is there an actual USB 2 adapter (other than what is on the plug in card)? If not, there is no way to connect those ports too a USB 2 adapter. It is possible, that they "work" because the BIOS is still driving the devices. I expect that the USB 2 card doesn't work until the USB 2 driver gets loaded, and initialized. That happens very late in the boot sequence.

Quote
I had to borrow a keyboard with a PS/2 plug to get everything up and working again

This is one of the main problems with using USB keyboards. They don't work after the BIOS loses control (sometime early in the boot sequence), and before the driver initializes (right at the end of the boot sequence). At that time, USB keyboards cannot be used to do simple things like hit <enter>. This is not new with new USB drivers, it has always been the case.

Quote
I will say again that ArcsOS does work, less USB 3, on a Ryzen machine if you use a working image from another AMD based machine (may need a 7th gen A series processor). So far I have been unable ti actually install from DVD or USB.

You should be able to install from DVD, but you may need to convince it to not use the UEFI boot method. That should be an option, somewhere in BIOS.

You can probably install from USB too, if you use a little trick:
Make two USB sticks, with the installer on them. Put one in a USB 3 port, which should boot (again, the UEFI boot isn't going to work), and load the MEMDISK, then ArcaOS can boot from the MEMDISK. At the end of that boot, the USB 3 port will not be usable, BUT, the USB 2 driver should be loaded, and the installer will find the rest of the installer on the stick that is in the USB 2 port (the plug in card, NOT the on board stuff). From that point, it should install normally.

Another way, is to make a small HDD volume (less than 2 GB, I use 2030 MB), and build the ArcaOS installer in that (it should be formatted FAT16). Boot from that volume, and you should be able to do the install (detailed instructions are in one of the README, or PDF, files in the root of the DVD). You may need to have Air Boot, or some other boot manager, installed, to be able to boot from the FAT16 volume.

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2019, 03:09:03 pm »
Quote
I had to borrow a keyboard with a PS/2 plug to get everything up and working again

This is one of the main problems with using USB keyboards. They don't work after the BIOS loses control (sometime early in the boot sequence), and before the driver initializes (right at the end of the boot sequence). At that time, USB keyboards cannot be used to do simple things like hit <enter>. This is not new with new USB drivers, it has always been the case.

No this is not true. The idea is to prevent the HC drivers from resetting the host controllers until finally the system is up and running in order to not prematurely break legacy USB support. It is the job of USBD.SYS to call into the HC drivers to trigger the host controller reset and once this is done to start the enumeration process (as then the HUB HW is able to properly do its work and react to port checking requests etc.). So, the idea is to delay this process until finally the system has booted far enough to no longer need USB legacy support.

I have modified my USB drivers to do just that: USBD.SYS queues the HC driver registration requests with a timer. It additionally checks if the system has already notified (via USBMSD.ADD calling into USBD.SYS) that INT13 boot support for USB MSD is no longer needed. If the timer expires (no more HC drivers asked for registration + the system has signaled it no longer needs INT13 boot support), then USBD.SYS will go ahead and reset the HC controllers.
I can easily boot to a commandline via Alt-F1 and F2 and then use my USB keyboard. There is a short moment where the keyboard will not work from the point in time where the HC drivers have been reset (and legacy USB support ceased) until native USB support has been enabled but you can continue to type and it will eventually continue to work, in practice I have no problem using a USB keyboard from a booted up commandline.
If I additionally run "lvm /rediscoverprm" from that commandline, I can also use attached USB MSD devices.

But of course, the BIOS has to provide legacy USB support. I wonder how long that will still be the case.

The upcoming 10.229 version of my drivers will have the rest of changes I have missed in the past to support the behaviour mentioned above.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 03:21:11 pm by Lars »

Doug Bissett

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2019, 09:16:00 pm »
Quote
So the issue (beside we don't have USB 3.0 drivers) is that these devices do not work

 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3038h VT82xx/62xx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller
 
 Vendor 1106h VIA Technologies, Inc.
 Device 3104h USB 2.0

Well, yes, they do work. I have an old computer (Asus P4VP-MX), with those devices, and they work okay with the Arca Noae 11.17, and 12.1, USB drivers. I haven't tried Lars' drivers, but I have no reason to believe they won't work.

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2019, 12:11:50 am »
Some info:

1) I think there is no chance that booting from a USB device attached to a plug-in USB card will actually work. I seem to remember that there are some HW limitations that will prevent this from working (some necessary HW signal line not wired via the PCI slot).

2) yes, VIA UHCI host controllers are supported. As far as I understand from ivan, the USB keyboard and trackball work if they are attached to the 2 "USB 2.0 only" USB ports for "normal" operation, that means, way past the boot stage. If the mouse and keyboard support does not work in the booting stage (that is, while you are presented with a fullscreen text mode with the driver signon messages showing etc.) then that either means that the system does not have USB legacy support in the "conventional" BIOS/UEFI CSM layer (that is, disregarding USB support via the UEFI BIOS which does not help OS/2 as OS/2 does not boot up via UEFI) or that the USB support breaks when switching from USB legacy support to native USB support.
What you could try out: back up \os2\boot\config.x and then remove all USB support from this file.
Then, restart the system, hit Alt-F1 and then F2 which will get you to a full screen commandline. Test the USB keyboard, it should work. If not, you are hosed and your system does not support legacy USB (via the "conventional" BIOS / UEFI CSM layer).
Don't forget to reinstate the original \os2\boot\config.x file after the test !

Lars

Joop

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2019, 03:25:45 am »
But of course, the BIOS has to provide legacy USB support. I wonder how long that will still be the case.
Probably forever, without UEFI won't work too, because it needs the kick off from start. (today a problem on HP machines with W10, after every upgrade different behaviour ;-(, so they struggling with it) And at that moment you have still influence on settings in the BIOS. Question will be if we still have access to the BIOS in the future, if yes, then there is a need for legacy USB support because other adapters are fading out (ps/2, din, serial) or are already no longer available (exclude industrial stuff).

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2019, 12:21:18 pm »
Unfortunately, I know too little about UEFI. The only things I know:

1) I have a machine with UEFI and CSM (compatibility support module = legacy BIOS support). It does have legacy USB support and even though the support is a bit buggy it works well enough for the USB keyboard to be usable without native USB drivers taking over support (I can boot to an OS/2 commandline without ANY USB drivers loaded and still use the keyboard)

2) I know of at least one other person that does have a machine with a legacy BIOS (or UEFI and CSM, I cannot remember) that however does NOT have legacy USB support. On this system, you will NOT have any USB support unless a native USB driver takes over support. My belief is that if this machine is a UEFI+CSM machine that then, ONLY UEFI USB drivers are provided along with the BIOS so that you can enter the BIOS (to change settings) or boot to a UEFI console and use the USB mouse/USB keyboard.

However "UEFI USB drivers" work completely differently: they are completely implemented in the BIOS FW and they DIRECTLY support USB mouse and keyboard (in the same way that the OS/2 SW drivers support that USB HW). In contrast, "legacy USB" support uses USB host controller HW support and also SMI to "fake" to the BIOS that an USB mouse/keyboard is a PS/2 keyboard/mouse. In short: this works completely differently. And the USB HC HW support for "legacy" operation is optional (USB HC HW does not have to provide this support).

That said, I DO believe that "legacy USB" support as we now it today will die sooner or later.

Lars