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OS/2 Warp 4 Server

Started by usertale, 2008.05.30, 19:46:58

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Fahrvenugen

#15
I know it can be confusing.  Essentially here's the quick run down.

Warp Server 4 and Warp Server 4 Advanced are in fact based on the OS/2 Warp version 3 (which was originally code named: Warp) code base.  They were released in late 1995 / early 1996.

Warp Server for eBusiness (a newer version of Warp Server then Warp Server version  4, where the version number was commonly known as 4.5) was based on the Warp version 4 client (the client code named Merlin) and was released in about 1999.

So in summary, to make this clear,

OS/2 Warp Server version 4 = based on modified OS/2 Warp version 3 client + fixpaks + whatever the latest version of IBM LAN Server was at the time.

OS/2 Warp Server version  4 Advanced = Based on modified OS/2 Warp version 3 client + Fixpaks + HPFS386 + optional SMP kernel (I think the SMP kernel may also have been available for the non-advanced version too, but I can't recall this 100%) + whatever the latest version of IBM LAN Server was at the time.

OS/2 Warp Server for eBusiness = Based on modified OS/2 Warp version 4 (merlin) client + fixpaks + LVM + JFS + other stuff they put in + whatever the latest version of IBM LAN Server was at the time.

Note, that OS/2 Warp Server 4 is *NOT* the same product as OS/2 Warp Server for eBusiness.

It is true that Warp Server for eBusiness is a newer version of Warp Server then Warp Server 4, however the original post asked about Warp Server 4.

I know, it gets confusing

RobertM

And Warp Server for e-Business also came with the SMP kernel as an install option. In addition it came with the updated Merlin clients. Both client (included with WSeB) and server were based off the newer Merlin versions (v4.5, 4.51, 4.52 and 4.52 PF).

HPFS386, at the time of the release, was a separately purchasable option (which came with the full HPFS386 install on a separate disk). Or, those who were migrating from Warp Server 4 Advanced (Warp 3 with LanMan 4 on top and SMP and HPFS386) would still retain their HPFS386 support - I believe the installer for WSeB would simply update the HPFS386 product (the install option for HPFS386 would be disabled if it didnt already exist in the WS4 install). Further HPFS386 fixpacks were also available.


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saborion2

Re:

Quote from: RobertM on 2008.07.12, 23:09:08
And Warp Server for e-Business also came with the SMP kernel as an install option. In addition it came with the updated Merlin clients. Both client (included with WSeB) and server were based off the newer Merlin versions (v4.5, 4.51, 4.52 and 4.52 PF).

HPFS386, at the time of the release, was a separately purchasable option (which came with the full HPFS386 install on a separate disk). Or, those who were migrating from Warp Server 4 Advanced (Warp 3 with LanMan 4 on top and SMP and HPFS386) would still retain their HPFS386 support - I believe the installer for WSeB would simply update the HPFS386 product (the install option for HPFS386 would be disabled if it didnt already exist in the WS4 install). Further HPFS386 fixpacks were also available.

Now that we all appear to be on the same track.. it is like saying to "Usertale" - Hey, why mess around with "Warp Server 4"... and, as is now agreed by "Fahrvenugen" who also said:

QuoteOS/2 Warp Server 4 is *NOT* the same product as OS/2 Warp Server for eBusiness.

It is true that Warp Server for eBusiness is a newer version of Warp Server then Warp Server 4

So, the assumption was/is - at times, don't we all wish to have (get our hands on) the "best" there is? Additionally, where can eComStation be now be positioned in all of this. (assuming of course that "Usertale" may wish to consider an "upgrade" path)  ;)

Best regards,

SAB

RobertM

Actually, I was quite happy with Warp Server 4 Advanced, and ran it for years. It took months since IBM sent me WSeB for me to upgrade... which was not a need, so much as I wanted to play with something new.

When I duplicate old setups, I use the same OS (instead of having to buy another one... WSeB and the "Server Pack" for eCS are NOT cheap). Thus, my main server is still running WSeB, and will continue to run it. If it gets replaced, the new server will run WSeB as well (unless I have the dough for a new version and a compelling reason to upgrade).


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
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Fahrvenugen

Quote from: RobertM on 2008.07.13, 01:49:08
Actually, I was quite happy with Warp Server 4 Advanced, and ran it for years. It took months since IBM sent me WSeB for me to upgrade... which was not a need, so much as I wanted to play with something new.

When I duplicate old setups, I use the same OS (instead of having to buy another one... WSeB and the "Server Pack" for eCS are NOT cheap). Thus, my main server is still running WSeB, and will continue to run it. If it gets replaced, the new server will run WSeB as well (unless I have the dough for a new version and a compelling reason to upgrade).


I have to agree too.  Personally I prefer the Warp 3 / Warp Server 4 code base over the Warp 4 (client) / Warp Server for eBusiness code base.  For many reasons I find that the older version preferable to the "newer" version, especially in server applications.  The main benefit of the newer version (for the situations that I have put OS/2 into a server type role) is the larger hard disk partitions that become possible with LVM and JFS.  Even with this, I still have machines that I have left running on the older Warp 3 code base.


saborion2

Quote from: Fahrvenugen on 2008.07.13, 18:06:56
Quote from: RobertM on 2008.07.13, 01:49:08
Actually, I was quite happy with Warp Server 4 Advanced, and ran it for years. It took months since IBM sent me WSeB for me to upgrade... which was not a need, so much as I wanted to play with something new.

When I duplicate old setups, I use the same OS (instead of having to buy another one... WSeB and the "Server Pack" for eCS are NOT cheap). Thus, my main server is still running WSeB, and will continue to run it. If it gets replaced, the new server will run WSeB as well (unless I have the dough for a new version and a compelling reason to upgrade).


I have to agree too.  Personally I prefer the Warp 3 / Warp Server 4 code base over the Warp 4 (client) / Warp Server for eBusiness code base.  For many reasons I find that the older version preferable to the "newer" version, especially in server applications.  The main benefit of the newer version (for the situations that I have put OS/2 into a server type role) is the larger hard disk partitions that become possible with LVM and JFS.  Even with this, I still have machines that I have left running on the older Warp 3 code base.


Hi RobertM, Hi Fahrvenugen,

Unlike you guys, we have been waiting around for years to have certain features developed and integrated into OS/2 (I guess you knew about the long "wait" between the releases of "Windows" and that of OS/2... IBM having to wait on Microsoft for the development of the Application Programming Interfaces - APIs); and, because we propose to deploy on an scale requiring international considerations... we still cannot deploy even Warp Server for eBusiness adequately to meet our needs; thus, our focus and requirement on "upgraded" (newer) software and hardware product solutions which brings us to the last part of "usertale's" question which asks:

QuoteDoes anyone have a hardware compatibility list?

Best regards,

SAB

RobertM

#21
Hi saborion2,

Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.07.14, 20:44:19
Hi RobertM, Hi Fahrvenugen,

Unlike you guys, we have been waiting around for years to have certain features developed and integrated into OS/2 (I guess you knew about the long "wait" between the releases of "Windows" and that of OS/2... IBM having to wait on Microsoft for the development of the Application Programming Interfaces - APIs); and, because we propose to deploy on an scale requiring international considerations... we still cannot deploy even Warp Server for eBusiness adequately to meet our needs; thus, our focus and requirement on "upgraded" (newer) software and hardware product solutions...

Indeed... depends on the person. I've found for our install needs, eComStation 1.2MR suits fine. OS/2 doesnt require super fast processors or lots of memory to get the same work done as Vista or Windows Server 2003. It requires a very small fraction of the resources. My ancient (by today's standards) Netfinity can still outperform a Windows Server 2003 machine equipped with many times the CPU power. Really.

One of our clients (before they contracted us) bought a nice HP server, U320 setup and Windows Server 2003 - my Netfinity has a whopping 4 CPUs installed - all ancient Xeon 550MHz CPUs. Their HP has dual 2.4GHz CPUs. Mine serves over a dozen web sites (sometimes over 100,000 requests on a busy day), multiple FTP sites (multi-gigabyte video files being transferred to and from for Star Trek New Voyages by 17 different people), email, NetBios/domain controller, time server, SQL (to a half dozen websites through scripts running via the web server) and monitors various of our clients off-site eComStation machines (which report in every 5 minutes). Their HP acts as a domain controller and file server - nothing more. The Netfinity (running WSeB v4.52 CP2 PF) sometimes hits a whopping 15% on a CPU... usually no CPU is over 10%... and uses maybe 250MB-300MB of RAM - wanna guess how much CPU and memory the Windows Server 2003 machine (doing far less stuff) hits/uses?

So... when we pick a machine for a client, we find a compatible board, decent video (usually ATI) and NIC (and sound if needed - which is rare) and install eCS. Then we set it up, walk away and come back every 6 months to dust it inside and out.

Which brings me to this...

Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.07.14, 20:44:19
...which brings us to the last part of "usertale's" question which asks:

QuoteDoes anyone have a hardware compatibility list?
Best regards,
SAB

We already addressed that for him from two different perspectives... someone else pointed him the the OS/2 hardware compatibility list hosted on one of the other OS/2 sites, and I offered the suggestion (under the assumption he may not have picked hardware yet) that he look into specific models of older Netfinity and x Series IBM servers and then look up IBM's CHL for them - I didnt give a specific URL, because the machines' availabilities vary (as they are usually eBay things)... so in finding one, he could then Google IBM's CHL and see if it was worth getting.

The beauty is, many "older" IBM servers that WSeB (much less eComStation - which has even more updated drivers) will run on them - AND (the key point) come with hardware that is still comparable to todays' "servers" by many small companies...

For instance, my not very young x440 came with four Xeon 2.4GHz CPUs and hardware RAID... and is upgradable to EIGHT 3.2GHz CPUs. With WSeB, that is beyond overkill - hence I havent even turned it on... the Netfinity with it's ancient CPUs can still handle 8-10 times the traffic it gets right now... even with MySQL calls, and script calls (REXX and otherwise) via the webserver, and handles traffic on two IPs at the same time, and uses two NICs (one for TCP/IP, one for NetBIOS) with a third NIC exclusively for system management... with everything else running I listed above, the machine can crank out 30 requests per second (it actually has been successfully tested to 100rps... 30 is the sweet spot where there is no lag) - or 2.5 million requests per day... I have yet to see any Windows Server setup on today's hardware that can handle that.

So, the point is, in looking for a replacement machine, he doesnt need "super state of the art" - for WS4, WSeB or eComStation - nor does he need all the new features that "we" are waiting on in OS/2 (such as 64bit support)... he doesnt need that to find a machine that will run OS/2, nor does he in ANY way need it for performance.

Yes, it would be nice to have those features... I want them one day so OS/2 will once again be able to push my CPUs to their limits... but honestly (other than maybe larger memory addressing - which still isnt a need, but a want) I really dont need it.

-Robert


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saborion2

Hi Robert,

Among other things...

Re:

QuoteSo, the point is, in looking for a replacement machine, he doesnt need "super state of the art" - for WS4, WSeB or eComStation - nor does he need all the new features that "we" are waiting on in OS/2 (such as 64bit support)... he doesnt need that to find a machine that will run OS/2, nor does he in ANY way need it for performance.

Yes, it would be nice to have those features... I want them one day so OS/2 will once again be able to push my CPUs to their limits... but honestly (other than maybe larger memory addressing - which still isnt a need, but a want) I really dont need it

Understandably there are different things for different folks; and, BTW - again it appears that you may have conveniently failed to respond to a part of one of my earlier post in this thread which quoted the following:

Quote

The Explosion of the Ariane 5

http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/ariane.html

The Patriot Missile Failure

http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/patriot.html


Both from an academic and professional stand point it will appear that your own company's undertaking (as well as "usertale's"; or, our own for that matter) may pale in terms of other situational requirements - not to mention further developments (deterioration) in the US mortgage industry over the last few days (the US government bailing out Fannie Maes and Freddie Macs...). Just where did the "calculations/computations" go wrong?

Do you remember these famous words: "Hello Houston! We Have A Problem"?; and, these are some of the reasons why there are much more advanced software and hardware feature requirements for different folks like those at "European Space Agency" which by far exceed yours, "usertale's" as well as ours.  8)

Hope you are having a fine day today.

Best regards.

SAB

RobertM

Quote from: saborion2 on 2008.07.15, 21:24:45
Hi Robert,

Among other things...
...again it appears that you may have conveniently failed to respond to a part of one of my earlier post in this thread which quoted the following:

Quote
The Explosion of the Ariane 5
http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/ariane.html

The Patriot Missile Failure
http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/patriot.html

I didnt convieniently forget. While it is a good topic of discussion (and a valid one), it is irrelevant to this discussion. Feel free to start a new thread regarding it - I do have comments and my own perspective on it - this topic just isnt the place since that is not what this topic is about. I'll join you in the new thread if you create it.  :)

-Robert


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
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ModZilla

#24
It was nice to have read the rundown on all the server and client conglamorates and also enlightening by young apprentice Robert; Now, here is/are the other burning question(s), if I go further/fwd and develop with WebSphere for E Business, will I still need the old OS/2 Warp TCP/IP app I bought running seperately from NET START SERVER calls? Its imbedded in warp 4 server so why was it[TCP/IP]offered as a separate app? Is this a layer thing? BTW,  I watched this thing go on ebay in spring of 05 for $400USD???) Why did it cost so darn much $? And still im cornfused about the mobos, can dual core and other similar boards run well with Warp? I recently visited MICRO Center's tech desk and was blown away by all the newer boards for sale with cpus sold as combos, interestingly ASUS was well represented as was Intel, though Intel boards are more conservative, my postulate has alway been forget Athlon and go Intel CPU chipped to an Intel Board, Mid Priced, and as preferred would I do well to rebuild my big tower and run Warp4 Server on a newer mid priced intel dual core or ?
someday os2 will be ruled by the young and famous-at least in the open-source world!

RobertM

#25
Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.09, 23:54:15
It was nice to have read the rundown on all the server and client conglamorates and also enlightening by young apprentice Robert;

Young? Thanks... not for a decade or two...  ;D

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.09, 23:54:15
Now, here is/are the other burning question(s), if I go further/fwd and develop with WebSphere for E Business, will I still need the old OS/2 Warp TCP/IP app I bought running seperately from NET START SERVER calls?

If it's just the TCP/IP stuff, then no. If it was some development kit, then maybe. All still depends on what features that are WebSphere specific that you plan on using. If you are simply using the Apache based features, then your better route is to use the newest version of Apache - otherwise, yeah, you have to stick with WebSphere, but I dont know of any other functionality you would gain from a separate TCP/IP package. It may be something from OS/2 2.0/2.1 (the Internet Access Kit?)

I've played with WebSphere (albeit, very briefly) and never needed to install anything extra.

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.09, 23:54:15
Its imbedded in warp 4 server so why was it[TCP/IP]offered as a separate app? Is this a layer thing?

Are you talking about Communications Manager/2 or some similar product? If so, you dont need it - it was a bunch of communications protocol related systems/services, that was required (most notably in the banking industry, where it was used on various OS/2 servers, ATMs, atc), but I dont recall anything additional that it brings "to the table" that you would need for Warp Server 4 or later... actually, any TCP/IP support included in it would be outdated... the better route would be to install Warp Server 4 (or later) and install the latest TCP/IP upgrade/fixpack (to give you the newer 32bit stack for Warp Server 4 - or the latest 32bit stack for WSeB, Warp 4 and eCS).

Currently, I am running the latest stack that came with Warp Server for eBusiness CP2 PF, no fixpacks applied, no noticeable problems. The earlier 32bit stack had one major issue, and a few minor ones... but you would need the original WSeB release to have that stack.

Upgrading WS4 to the 32bit stack would give you the latest stack, unless by some chance you managed to find the original stack release - which is unlikely.

What's the product's full name? Interestingly, I owned one or more of everything you seem to have, at one time or another... but lost them during a move from Baltimore (some stolen, some lost with a storage location I couldnt keep paying for). So... the good news is, I've got some experience with most or all of the things... the bad news being, I havent used much of the stuff in years...


Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.09, 23:54:15
BTW,  I watched this thing go on ebay in spring of 05 for $400USD???) Why did it cost so darn much $? And still im cornfused about the mobos, can dual core and other similar boards run well with Warp?

If Warp supports SMP on the board, it will do better than run well. I have not seen any PC based operating system that makes better use of more than one CPU.

So...

  • Warp 4 will not support more than one CPU or core (unless you manage to install the SMP option that is floating around out there - it will upgrade the TCP/IP stack, kernel, and a bunch of other files)
  • Warp 3 will not - at all.
  • Warp Server 4 SMP will support more than one CPU - but unlikely not more than one core, unless it is an older dual-core setup that addresses the cores using the older MP1.0/1.1 specs.
  • Warp Server 4 Standard will not support multiple CPUs or cores (it's a single processor version) - though I think SMP support for it is floating around out there too.
  • Warp Server for e-Business will support SMP on multiple CPUs using MP1.0-1.4 (some systems you need to set the MP support to 1.1 as the implementation for 1.4 is broken on the mobo).
  • Warp Server for e-Business will support SMP on multiple cores - if you want to go through the trouble of figuring out how to use eCS v2's APIC, SMP, etc stuff... big hassle.
  • eCS v2 will support SMP via either multiple CPUs or multiple cores, or a combination of both.


All SMP capable versions of OS/2 since Warp Server 4 Advanced SMP support up to 64 CPUs. OS/2 was supposedly optimized for up to 16 CPUs, but it has been tested with great results on 64 CPU systems (by IBM themself), namely the IBM eServer x430, a 64-way server, that used PIII CPUs. It would be a sweet machine to run OS/2 on - even at the last announced CPU speed of 900MHz (which is probably upgradable somewhat considerably)... but you could buy a house for the price that it came out for originally (and I have yet to be able to find one used...). I for one would love to have a 64 way 900Mhz to 1.2GHz (per CPU) system...


Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.09, 23:54:15
I recently visited MICRO Center's tech desk and was blown away by all the newer boards for sale with cpus sold as combos, interestingly ASUS was well represented as was Intel, though Intel boards are more conservative, my postulate has alway been forget Athlon and go Intel CPU chipped to an Intel Board, Mid Priced, and as preferred would I do well to rebuild my big tower and run Warp4 Server on a newer mid priced intel dual core or ?

Depends on your needs. Some things (like Lotus Domino GoWebserver) would "prefer" a lot of CPUs over a few fast ones. I have no idea how well threaded WebSphere is... but I do know that earlier versions of Apache did not handle using multiple threads well (not much benefit). Later versions fix that a bit. DGWS on the other hand, spawns 1-2 threads per request, and it and OS/2 manage them phenomenally.

Another alternative, which is still probably better, is to look for an xSeries that supports OS/2, has 4 CPUs (or more), and can be upgraded to 2.4GHz-3.0GHZ CPUs. The box will be blazingly fast, and if you find it is supported, it usually means IBM did the testing and ensured the driver support is there... you can grab one for far cheaper than a new machine... and will find it faster than anything you can put together.

Robert


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RobertM

#26
As a side note about the x430 (I've followed this beast since it's announcement date)...

Quote"With these new offerings, IBM is the only company in the industry to deliver one to 64 processors in its Intel server family," said Bill Colton, general manager, IBM eServer xSeries. "Customers looking to deploy industry standard data center solutions can now select from the industry's most scalable, powerful line of servers to help build, run and manage their e-business infrastructure affordably and effectively."

IBM was the only company who released one of these partially (or mostly?) because (in the PC world) only OS/2 supported 64 way computers at the time.


QuoteSupport for Multiple Operating Systems - Enterprise Class
The new eServer x430, a 64-way server with the new Intel 900 MHz (2) Pentium III® XeonTM processor, offers industry leading Non-Uniform Memory Access (NUMA) architecture and I/O technologies. The x430 is optimized for the scalability, availability and manageability requirements of large and rapidly growing e-infrastructures and offers customers the ability to simultaneously run different applications across multiple operating systems.

The x430 supports a broad application portfolio, including Linux via the Linux Application Environment TM (LAE) and ptx®. The x430 will also support the latest edition of Windows Datacenter Server when it becomes available.

Well, Linux support was added (by IBM) later. As for Windows Datacenter, MS couldn't do that either... IBM created the code for that as well... and that took a long time from the x430's release date if memory serves.

This machine was a beautiful thing... but with the OS/2 server market declining (and it being the only thing that ran on it with 64 CPUs installed when it first came out), there weren't many takers when it was released.

Sadly, another "drop of the ball" by IBM... just like Domino GoWebserver... back in 1998/1999, it was in the top 5-10 webservers running. Could have kept that market... but no...

OS/2 made an excellent server platform for web serving as well (when coupled with LDGW)... or application hosting or so much more. IBM would do "NT on Netfinity" performance testing... and "OS/2 on Netfinity" performance testing... guess which one outperformed the others by a factor of ten?

That market, nowadays, is a key market to point out the reasons for an upgraded kernel, et al, for OS/2 (64 bit), because certain OS limits could be raised, such as number of concurrent threads that can be run, and of course memory limits. If the kernel (and related components) is ever upgraded to 64 bit, I doubt anything in the PC world will be able to touch OS/2 as a high volume web or ftp server (when running the correct server app), especially with it's built in "fast-path" technology from things like the file system to the web server (ooops, I think that only works with LDGW... but that too can be fixed).


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ModZilla

#27
Thanks for setting me straight here, yes there was the TCP/IP "base kit" for OS/2 ver2.x but I meant to say that at some point I purchased the TCP/IP app separately, in 1996 and I thought it was for warp3 and later came in warp 3 connect, now I guess you mean to say its already inside warp4 server: the ISBN no was not avail at the time of purchase for the app, I know it was not a net monitoring thing like Tivoli just the stack... So, I dont need it as an app any longer with the WSeB and all the goodies, I appreciate that Robert...would that have been "fix pak 15" or?
someday os2 will be ruled by the young and famous-at least in the open-source world!

ModZilla

 :-[ :-[embarrased to ask but SEEKING PERMISSION fr os2w member 'Fahrvenugen' to post his response on my web. That was quite a suscinct rundown you gave there and though somewhat confusing to me, its a nice reference...I think more people should see this as well as Rob's posts in this regard. Hey Rob, why wont your mom give back your M2? I have plenty of new unused chords, 'look likethe old telephone chord' should she ever need a new replacement. ;D
someday os2 will be ruled by the young and famous-at least in the open-source world!

RobertM

Quote from: ModZilla on 2008.08.22, 16:41:13
:-[ :-[embarrased to ask but SEEKING PERMISSION fr os2w member 'Fahrvenugen' to post his response on my web. That was quite a suscinct rundown you gave there and though somewhat confusing to me, its a nice reference...I think more people should see this as well as Rob's posts in this regard. Hey Rob, why wont your mom give back your M2? I have plenty of new unused chords, 'look likethe old telephone chord' should she ever need a new replacement. ;D

Hi Mod,

It's an original Model M (not an M2), one of the first that was designed to work with a PC (1986 vintage). It was a gift... so it's not mine. I gave it to her almost 20 years ago with a computer as a Christmas or birthday present. That computer has since been scrapped (age and all), and replaced 3 times with newer computers, mice, screens, speakers, etc. The only remaining component is the keyboard... its 22 years old (this November on it's birthday) and going strong. So, I'm always looking for more of it's caliber... and she advised me she's never getting rid of it or getting a new one... it's moving to her next new computer, and the next one, and the next one... so, I offered to buy it from her... that was a no as well. So, it's more of a running joke between us now, as my brother and I love them as well.

It was kinda funny... when she first got it, she thought it was loud, and wasnt sure if she would like it. She's gotten rid of 3 new keyboards that came with systems she bought to replace her original, and wont part with the Model M (not that I blame her). But, I cant complain... my computers are all hooked up to Model M's or M13's (full sized M with trackpoint).


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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